Q & A Episode 36 - Designing with Nature: The Unique Story of Honey Hill
Episode #36 | Q&A with Mark D. Williams | Designing with Nature: The Unique Story of Honey Hill
In this episode of The Curious Builder, we dive into the story behind Honey Hill, a unique luxury development in Orono, MN. Williams is joined by Tom and Shaun from Aspect Design Build to discuss how this project came to life, the importance of collaboration over competition, and why thoughtful design makes all the difference. Tune in for insights into land development, branding, and the future of home building.
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About The Curious Builder
The host of the Curious Builder Podcast is Mark D. Williams, the founder of Mark D. Williams Custom Homes Inc. They are an award-winning Twin Cities-based home builder, creating quality custom homes and remodels — one-of-a-kind dream homes of all styles and scopes. Whether you’re looking to reimagine your current space or start fresh with a new construction, we build homes that reflect how you live your everyday life.
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Mark D. Williams 00:00
You know, so many developments you have to create articles of homeowner guidelines, and nobody likes creating all that stuff, because if you make it too limiting, it's people don't like have to adhere to it if you make it too loose, so you get something really ugly. And I, I think we talked before we came on camera, I think what makes this development so unique and so comfortable is we don't have to worry about that. Like, I know you build a good home. You obviously believe I do too, because you want to approach me otherwise, the three architects all do great work. We have a landscape architect in Pebble like, we're aligning ourself with great team, so we know the outcome is going to be amazing. Ian, Music. Welcome to curious builder Podcast. I'm Mark Williams. Your host today is there's a Q and A and we have a special guest in studio. We have Tom and Sean from aspect design build out right down the street in Excelsior, Minnesota. Welcome to the studio,
Shaun 00:56
guys. Thanks. Mark Tom's been excited to be here for a long time. Yeah, he's
Mark D. Williams 01:01
an aspiring podcaster. He's got a voice of honey on warm bread, of an angel, voice of an angel. We thought, so we're doing a development together over an or no, and I thought it'd be kind of fun, because a lot of people ask me about honey hill all the time, between our marketing, the email blast, and I thought it'd just be fun for kind of 20 minutes to really just talk about honey Hill, a collaboration between two builders. How you guys kind of brought me in maybe about a year ago, and originally it was going to be three lots when you bought it and morphed into six, and you guys called up and said, Hey, let's do a team up. And it's really opened up. I talk a lot on the podcast about collaboration over competition. A huge kudos to you guys for reaching out to me and say, Hey, Mark, do you want to partner and do this together? And it's really, been really, really enjoyable to work with you guys over the last year.
Shaun 01:44
Yeah, I mean, we're, you know, I think it all starts from us being a small company and looking for opportunities that are out there. This land presented itself, and we chased it for, I don't know how many months, got it under contract, and then the neighbor came to us and decided that they wanted to sell their piece as well. And so it went from that three lot start that you talked about in the six, and we're a small company, everything's personal to us, as far as the builds go and and for us to work through that whole piece, it was great to bring you in. And you're obviously, you're awesome at marketing and that side of it, and then, you know, the way we go about our business and our branding and how we represent ourselves. We were a good match. Yeah,
Mark D. Williams 02:29
I think what's nice about it is, if everyone on the team is exactly the same, there's a duplication. But I think we complement each other. So often, I'm on one extreme, Tom we jokingly say, is on the other extreme, and Sean, you're like the middle tiebreaker. And I think it's been really good because of how different each one of us views the project. And I think from a development I think that's been one of your strengths in terms of development and layout. And then it feels like you're part of a bigger team, because we get to collaborate so often together
Tom 02:56
now, yeah, a piece of all that too is internally. It's you're the go on the stop, and Sean's the All right, let's yellow light this, which is great, but also just the development went from, as Sean said, we had an 11 acre property, and then all of a sudden it morphed into 18 Acres, and it's getting big enough that we need other people involved in this. And obviously you're from the marketing side of it,
Shaun 03:21
what we are not and leading the market really in that, yeah,
Tom 03:25
yep, which is awesome, like, so the collaboration piece of it, we're all part of it. Sean and I grew up with a hockey background, and when in that sports setting, collaboration is a key part of all of it. And what's also, I think you made it clear from the beginning, it shouldn't be a zero sum game kind of thing in the building industry, and we felt that way. There's always going to be natural competition and all of that. But that's great, but it doesn't have to be. It's me or you. There's definitely room for all of us. And so yeah,
Shaun 03:56
we've never had a negative meeting or, ooh, I wonder what? I wonder what he's really thinking coming out of a meeting or anything like that. It's all been pretty straightforward. And so there's that, like, any good relationship, trust level is there
Mark D. Williams 04:08
probably would also make you why you should definitely invite me to Poker Night, because I don't really have a poker face, so, you know, I can't really keep much inside. Anyway, I think you know the what's so neat about the development. And for those that haven't seen it or don't know what we're talking about, you can head to honeyhill.com I know you can also find it on both of our respective websites, Mark Williams Custom Homes, as well as aspect. Is it aspect.com or aspect design build?
Tom 04:30
You haven't been visiting our website, I don't
Mark D. Williams 04:32
know it off the top of head, I just autobry. It's my home browser, so I don't have to remember it. It's aspect design build. So anyway, they'll all reference to honey Hill for builders, not in our market. It seems like we've done a pretty good job of marketing. I get asked all the time locally from other builders, designers or trade partners. You know, a year ago when we really sort of launched this thing in terms of branding and the name, and we'll let John talk a little bit about that, but it's been really fun to watch other builders even see our collaboration and see. Hey, is there a chance we could get in it? And early on, there were a couple builders that we interviewed that we thought, You know what, if we're going to do a spec home, you know, maybe we'd bring in a third party. We thought right out of the gate we'd sell them all, just because I was very optimistic. I joked this morning, telling Tom's like, nobody can sell me, like me and so. But anyway, we do have half sold now, which is great. You know, we're in design. You guys are on design an oddly or not, oddly, it seems like your best lots always sell first. It seems like that's a pretty development, no. And so the two Lake lots are the ones that are sold. And so we have three more lots. We have lot. And people can go on the website and and check out the plat map and see what that's all about. And but it was
Shaun 05:38
the one of the cool parts about the lot is, when we first came upon it, and kind of going through the purchase process, that the lake was hard to see. It was overgrown, kind of a property that had been neglected for a number of years. And as we've gone through the process, the lake really opened up to not just the two Lake lots, but really the whole subdivision where you can drive in, now into the cul de sac, and the lake shows up, and it's very much part of all the natural setting that's out there. Ian 100%
Mark D. Williams 06:07
right? And it backs up to the Orna dog part, which is complete woods, and it's very private. We spend a lot of time going through different naming conventions and different thought process of how to market this. And I really love how it's ended, which is where luxury meets nature. It really drew me to the project is it was, you know, at that point in my career, I didn't really want to be in part of a 50 or 100 development. And not that I'm always open to that, but it's like I liked something that fit more me. It was more boutique, more it was just more attainable and more approachable. And, you know, usually when people come to us and they say, Hey, we want to build on acreage, you know, if you want to build an acreage, usually that to me, that's 10 plus acres, 1015, 20. And you know, you're going out to independence Medina, you know, Rockford buffalo usually, traditionally further west, especially when price becomes a concern. But you know, like, I have three small kids, and now you guys have children too, and one of the things that's nice is, privacy is nice, but it's also nice to have a bit of a neighborhood. And I think what is so appealing about this development is you have the benefit of both. I mean, acreage lots are anywhere from two to four acres, or two to five acres, but you're in a six lot development, so you've got people. You're gonna get both. You're gonna get the neighborhood. The kids can walk down the street, play with other kids, you know, play hockey on the pond. But then you also feel like, you know what? I also feel like sort of out in the country, that, to me, that was the biggest drawing point, and I've been in love with it.
Shaun 07:28
Yeah, I think there is the luxury meets nature, and that's a very much a part of it. Going back to the marketing side, I live in Arno, and it's, it's maybe two minutes from the schools and hockey rink, and there's people we know that are a part of our community that are like, Oh, I just drove by it, or I drove in there, or I see what you guys are doing. It looks awesome, and it's going to be great. And, you know, it's very much a hometown feel to it, while still having that, you know, that natural environment,
Mark D. Williams 07:55
I mean, the ease of access, right? I mean, you're eight minutes to downtown Wayzata, you're 15 minutes to downtown Minneapolis, you know, on the 12, 394, corridor, if you're speeding top, maybe
Tom 08:04
with the way you drive,
Mark D. Williams 08:06
yeah, but let foot Williams, so, I mean, the ease of access is super critical. I mean, it's one of the reasons why, or no, has just exploded as a school district as well.
Tom 08:15
Yeah, the piece that to me and I live on kind of two acres, you know, a little bit closer in. But the piece to me, that I really love about the land is it presents itself as a pretty rural property. And like Sean said, you know, it was one half of it, at least, was a, was a hobby farm that had just been neglected for so many years. But it just, it had topography there. It had kind of all the all the boxes for something you would, or at least I would like as, like a this kind of rural setting. But again, like you said, still no one can see the neighbors. Oh, they're far enough away that you can still keep your distance. And so there's just this combination of what a topography, you know, there's a lake, there's some elevation changes, the tree covers, awesome. So
Shaun 09:08
I would say is one of the most unique pieces of a subdivision that's any of any size, really, is the mature trees that were there and able to keep based on how we kind of split the lots out as people go in there and they're like, that tree's amazing, and that tree's amazing. I am
Mark D. Williams 09:23
glad you brought that up, because, you know, we took a lot of trees out of there, for one thing, and when you first went in, it was a little overwhelming. I remember walking the land the first time you called me. You know, it was winter time, and was it 23 or 24 somewhere in there, December, maybe before Christmas. And we walked out there, and it was, but obviously the leaves are down, but it was heavily treed. And of course, you know, you see all the, bad trees, you see the dead trees, you see the fall trees, and it was so overgrown with buckthorn that you really couldn't see it. It's a little bit akin to a remodel. This property has been on the market for a while, and we actually met with someone the other day that shout out to Jonathan from pebble landscape architect, you know, he'll be working with us, but he actually said he had looked at it, remember, you know, but it was so overgrown now he obviously could see it, you know. Just. Like we can, but I think the average public, I think that's what's challenging when you development, you know, obviously we'd love to pre sell some of this. But, you know, once the development sort of, you know, these different layers, like you mentioned, I'm all go. Like, early on, I was like, Hey, why don't we cutting down trees when we, like, Mark, we don't even own the property yet. Like, I was ready to, just like, go to town on this thing, because I want, I wanted it needed a haircut, bad. And as soon as those trees came down the road, went in, I mean, wow, it really was like, whoa. This is nice.
Shaun 10:27
It was interesting that, you know, Jonathan had probably seen it probably two years ago, and when he was out there just a couple days ago, he's like, wow, this, this is quite different than what I remember. And it was the undulation and opening really, being able to see it more, you know, opened up that whole vision for what it is out there.
Mark D. Williams 10:45
When to kudos to you guys. You guys have spent way more physical time out there than I have. Every time I go out there, I feel like I see Sean's truck. He's pulling buckthorn or he's digging something. And, I mean, it was because they, you know, I think history of property assisting, and we won't spend the rest of this episode diving in all why we named it honey Hill. Collectively, you could go hit some of the high notes Sean, because that was kind of your research department. But it just, I really like a story, and I love branding. People that listen to the podcast. Know, I talk about branding and storytelling all the time, but it was really important for me, and I think for us for this, the reason it's called Honey Hill is it has ties to, you know, beehive keeping. Was it back in that? Was it 30s or
Shaun 11:25
30s? So there's a little, there's a cool little museum in downtown Long Lake that has a history of all local history on not only that area, but of Minnesota. And so they had, we did a bunch of research there. And, you know, through the years, it, it morphed from early settlement to apple orchard to this honey producing farm, and it was the largest hunting honey producing farm in the state, and it was nicknamed honey Hill. And so we resurrected that name for the subdivision. And
Tom 11:55
I would say, I'm going to give Sean a big shout out for that, because I'm guessing if it was you mark, or me trying to name it, it would have been something kind of fast and fast and sweet,
Mark D. Williams 12:09
fast and sweet.
Tom 12:12
But yeah, Sean, you know, like actually went and spent time like he's he's probably donating to the Long Lake Preservation Society. Now it's first one in there, under the age of 70. In the last 10 years, there's
Shaun 12:28
some great people in there, not to go too far down this road, but great people in there that grew up and were in the old one room schoolhouses in Long Lake and or anyway, a little shout out to those guys, because they're great at giving that
Tom 12:40
whole background, I will say, like, there's a bigger piece of all that that's pretty awesome that people are wanting and willing to put the time in to preserve these kind of things, because, by and large, stuff like that gets forgotten or lost without I mean, people spending time keeping it alive, which is pretty cool.
Mark D. Williams 12:58
I'd be going back to the team approach. I'm not someone that's gonna spend deep time researching that, right? But I think this goes back to the personalities of your teammates, and for those out there that are looking to do developmental understanding that there's everyone has different assets, and I think by everyone having their different interests, and we're always very open to listening to each other at certain points in time, I'm typically calling Sean or I'm calling Tom lately has been Tom, he knows as soon as I drop off the kids, I'll have some crazy idea at like, 759 or 801 right after I drop off Tate, and I'll be like, Hey, Tom, what are you doing? You need
Tom 13:28
someone to hit the brakes for you, it's you or my wife that calls me at eight o'clock.
Mark D. Williams 13:32
I'm perfectly fine with that. Outside of the podcast, we have the curious collectives. Basically what this is is we get small groups, no more than 30. You get into tables of nine, and we have set topics of discussion. You can see everything that you want on the website at curious builder podcast.com you can also find it in other cities. So the collective is going into Phoenix. Brad Levitt is going to be hosting. To be hosting a curious collective down in Phoenix, Arizona. We're gonna have Brad Robinson and Vince Longo leading a collective in Atlanta, Georgia. And we're gonna have David and Angela Penske down in San Antonio, also leading a collective. And a few other states are coming online later this year as well, of course, as Minnesota. So if you're interested in getting together with like minded individuals, this collective is kind of somewhere between what we do at the contractor coalition that you hear me talk a lot about. It's also kind of a hybrid of what you see at builder 20s. So it's really open format, very much embracing collaboration of competition. If you want to further your education, if you want to increase learning from each other, you definitely want to find out more about these collectives. Being half sold is really, really cool, and I know with how nice it is and with where the things are at, I suspect by the spring, or even just in a month or two, we're going to be sold out. And now, right now, anyone listening, if you're interested in building like obviously, we'd love to talk. Talk with you. I think what's been really refreshing about how we did this is the traditional model is, and this is kudos to you guys. Traditionally, there'd be two builders. You'd pick three lots. I picked three lots. I really like how we did it on this development, which we each got one lot to pick. So we each got one lake lot, and then clients get to interview both of us because we didn't want to tie. You know, if someone really vied with you, but it was my lat. Like, we didn't want that to be the reason. Like, you should build your home with who you want to build it with, and that, I think that's a game changer. I really do. I think that's really impressive, and it speaks a to our collaboration. But also like, like, I'm just as happy if you get a build as if I do, and I truly believe that, because I believe in this neighborhood, and I believe in what we're going to do as a team going forward. So I just want the people to be happy. And there's plenty of, I mean, there's plenty of home sites for both of us,
Shaun 15:48
but, I mean, I think it's just, it's a mindset and maybe towards a subdivision. But even more than just as builders, right? You're talking about collaboration and really wanting what's best for the person that's going to live there that our clients, and whether that's helping them to select an architect or which lot, or any of that, we're just we're trying to be their advocates in the market, and we don't, none of us do enough houses to not take that approach. And so it's like we said, it's, it's personal. You're a helper, you're part of a community. My dad was a log home builder in northern Minnesota, and so I grew up with people coming into our house and writing how what they want on a piece of paper. And so that's why I think it was a bill. And so that's I think that's part of what that means, and why it helps to collaborate in the way we did. I think
Mark D. Williams 16:32
it also it'd be refreshing as a homeowner to realize like you have options if they're out there. Most of these people are not. This is not their first home. So they've done the development gain, they've built, they've either built before, or they've, at least no one, not somebody that has. And so I think, you know, obviously we're engaging with real estate agents and so, like, it's not, they're probably more used to interviewing multiple people, but kind of really just deline, like, what are the differences? And the nice thing about, you know, maybe we'll speak a little bit why we chose the three architects that we did. You know, we interviewed probably, what, four to six different architects, and we chose James McNeill architect, we chose chisel architecture and Christopher Strom, and we felt like That was the best combination of the three force, honey Hill. Specifically, we met with a lot of great architects, and they'll certainly be available for our next ones as well. But I think they really those three in particular spoke to diversity, but also kind of an overarching theme to honey hill that we both resonated with. You know, so many developments you have to create articles of homeowner guidelines, and nobody likes creating all that stuff, because if you make it too limiting, it's people don't like have to adhere to it if you make it too loose, so you get something really ugly. And I, I think we talked before we came on camera. I think what makes this development so unique and so comfortable is we don't have to worry about that. Like, I know you build a good home. You obviously believe I do too, because you wouldn't have approached me otherwise, the three architects all do great work. We have a landscape architect in Pebble like, we're aligning ourselves with great team, so we know the outcome is going to be amazing. And I just love that there's freedom in that artful expression for so each person does isn't limited or handcuffed by you know, what someone else likes. Yeah. And
Shaun 18:09
I think the you know, the property has such a an identity to it that the professionals that you work with, and the you know, and the clients that choose that property are all kind of looking for a similar outcome, and can sort of have that freedom and creative freedom within that but still sort of play in the same sandbox and and we're excited about what, you know, Pebble is going to bring from a escaping architecture side of it, and sort of that theme that they'll bring through the subdivision as well.
Mark D. Williams 18:40
We're pretty well. We're in our intro phase. We just had our first design reveal earlier this week. You guys are a little bit further along on lot four. My clients bought lots three and lot two, and so, you know, it's basically the front three lots that are available. But what's unique about them? I think when we first maybe we'll ask everyone this question, what would when you first walked the property based on value as well. What was your favorite lot? If you had to build your own home,
Tom 19:11
I'd probably take lot two with the barn. Our idea was to keep the barn and kind of work the house in and around the barn, but a lot, too, kind of had the space. It's got some elevation. I think it's actually the highest point on the property. So you kind of have a little bit of, you know, you kind of have some long view corridor options there, but then you have the dog park tucked in behind it that kind of creates, like this little warm, fuzzy blanket, kind of to the south. Yeah. So I just and I have a not a young family. I have a high school, middle schooler and a elementary schooler, so just envisioning my family kind of traipsing throughout the. Ian is fairly easy on lot two. What was your first instinct?
Shaun 20:03
I think I have to stick with lot four. And we kind of all determined it was the premier lot. It was, you know, it's a big lot on the lake. I am a big fan of big views. And so those long views that you're going to get from up, kind of up on that hill, are going to be wonderful. And there's a pond in the lake, and a lot of nature to it, some a bunch of fruit trees. I think there's 32 fruit trees. We counted on that lot. And so there's a lot of potential with that. But, you know, each lot has its own character. And so you know when, if you're going to like lot five and six and one, they all have really great redeeming qualities. And so, um, it's a, it's a after four. It's a tough call for me.
Mark D. Williams 20:46
It's the reason I bring it up is, I think, and we correct me if I'm wrong. But when we were discussing doing a spec home the first I think we all, everyone, sort of unanimously picked lot five as the spec home, lot, which we haven't even talked about till, just right now. And I think from a building point of view, like usually the conventional theories, you either build on your most expensive lot, or you build on your cheapest lot. You so you're selling up, or you're selling down right, which is either lot six, one or three or three and four. And I pick lot five, and so did you and so did we? An architect walk by, and they all said lot five. And I think for us, it was this beautiful open had that giant willow tree. Everyone goes on the website or sees our printed material. It's one day. We did drone photography, and two horses were running in a pasture. One's a Pinto, so it's a multi colored horse, and the other one's a brown horse. And it just it looks I showed it to a landscape architect today. They're like, wow, that's such a romantic photo, and it has this really cool vibe to it. But the reason I like like lot five, it was really open. I mean, all the lots are huge, but I like that, you know, you can have, what makes this development special is they can all have 80 use accessory dwelling units. So it's thinking almost like a compound effect. But I liked it as a builder, point of view, if I built a spec home there, I could, you know, I'd center it probably around four to 5 million as a package. I could sell up to go higher, to the higher end lots, if we wanted. But you could also say, hey, you know, this lot has a bit of a premium. It also, we built it pretty big. We could easily bring that down to, let's say, two nine or two five. I think at the time, we were at two five, you know. Now, just with inflation and cost, it seems like, you know, two nine is about as low as we can go. And then, you know, I think the homes that we're doing right now, I think another reason why partnering with architects and builders of similar quality is, you know, all the homes in there are going to be multi million dollar homes, which the only reason I say that is it gives some peace of mind to the people investing in their home, because they know that the even though there's several homes that aren't built, it's always kind of troublesome when you're the first person to build. Remember, we had, we had two clients that didn't want to be the first. Nobody wants to be the first. Now, you know, whoever comes in is, you know, the benefit of being first is you get first pick. The con is you don't really know what else is going to be built. Well, now we have two anchor homes that are gorgeous, that development is really set in tone. And it
Shaun 23:01
was late in fall when we actually, you know, brought the road in, finished some of the tree work, that did the ponds and some of those items. It really does have a character to it. Now that, especially with the snow is off and Spring is coming, it's, it's going to come alive too. And so, yeah, a lot, lot five, it has the best value to it. It has all the same sort of redeeming features as like the lake lots and but you're not paying for the lake, right? And it's, it's gorgeous, one huge like this great willow tree on it and a great maple tree on it. That maybe sounds silly, that you you emphasize two trees, but they really are well. And
Mark D. Williams 23:39
East facing are those two giant Norway pines. And those things have to be 100 feet tall both lot what six and lot five get to view those enormous trees. And then I think a two story from either one can see the lake. I mean, that's what, again, makes a lot five just this kind of real gem. If people are trying to go like you said, value, I agree, lot five is an incredible value.
Tom 24:01
I'm gonna say I think lot one is kind of a sneaky good value too, in particular, you know, because at least for the time being, as as you had your clients buy lots two and three, you know, you're gonna have kind of these long South views out of that lot. And it's, again, that's that one's a little more hunkered down. It's got a small wetland in it, and then it has this dry creek running through, kind of, out to the West. And I think, you know, whoever puts a house on there, you know, it's going to be a little bit lower, like set down, kind of, which I think is pretty cool. And then, you know, I think the architects, and you know, whichever one of us builds on it, you know, is really going to try to figure out a way to get both sides of the wetland and or the property on both sides of the wetland to talk to each other. And I think that's just going to be such a unique, cool feature of that when it's all said and done, I think it's
Mark D. Williams 24:58
going to feel very. Grounded. I mean that home is going to feel very like you mentioned. It's kind of sunk or grounded into that lot. I think it's actually one of the most difficult lots to envision. And I'll give you guys credit on that early on that Tom, that was one of your first picks. You loved that lot. And now, seeing what chisels architecture has done a few renderings for that one. I think it's called the honey crisp. They love to name their plan. So shout out to them. I love their naming convention. I designed one on lot three called the dragon. And so I really, you know, I think again, loving storytelling, talking about it is just been really enjoyable. So, you know, for people driving by, it's off County Road six and right by the orno High School. And anyway, if you want to know more, you can reach out to either one of us, and you can also check out the website. We'll try to keep it under the around the 20 minute mark on this episode. Well, I think in the future we'll have you guys come back on. And I would like to do an hour podcast, not only for aspect design, build in general, with Tom shaking his head, actually, 25 and me, 25 Well, you already passed 25 but then the other option would be, I would love to talk about lessons learned. You know, there's so many people outside Minnesota that do developments. And you know, we have a lot to learn from them, and we've already learned so much of what we would do differently. And I think it's just really important to talk about it, because, you know, ultimately, we're facing a huge housing shortage, not only in Minnesota, but across the country. You know, I think it's 110,000 units short in our in Minnesota alone. And you know, regardless if it's, you know, high end luxury, which is what we build or remodel, but also all the way down the food chain, you know, we need, we need more developers. We need more developments. We need more builders, because people need to live somewhere. And we are way behind. And I know Minnesota is not the only state. I mean, most states are behind. So, you know, you know, kudos to you guys for taking that first step forward, and we're excited to partner with
Shaun 26:43
you. Thanks for having us on and looking for the next subdivision.
Mark D. Williams 26:47
You got it? Yep, anyone has a good subdivision, reach out to us. We're starting to write letters. It's cool. Thanks for tuning the cures builder podcast. I tune in every Monday for one hour episodes and Thursdays for 20 minute Q and A's. If you have any questions, please send us an email at Mark at curious builder.com or go to our website and fill out the contact page to be kept abreast of the latest episodes. Thank you. Thanks for tuning in to curious builder podcast. If you like this episode, do us a favor, share it with three other business owners. The best way that we can spread what we're doing is by word of mouth, and with your help, we can continue to help other curious builders expand their business. Please share it with your friends, like and review online, and thanks again for tuning in. You.
