Q & A Episode 51 - Losers Are Winners Part 2: When to Walk Away & Trust Your Gut with Allyson Case

Jul 23

Episode #51 | Q&A with Mark D. Williams | Losers Are Winners Part 2: When to Walk Away & Trust Your Gut with Allyson Case

Sometimes “just get through it” is the worst advice ever. In this Losers Are Winners episode, Mark sits down with Allyson Case of Integro Builders to unpack what happens when you ignore your gut, protect the wrong people, and stick with a project that should’ve ended ages ago. From bad architects to bad breakups (and the clients caught in the middle), it’s a brutally honest peek at how one of Chicago’s top builders learned when to call it — and why consistency is kinder than favors.

About The Curious Builder

The host of the Curious Builder Posdast is Mark D. Williams, the founder of Mark D. Williams Custom Homes Inc. They are an award-winning Twin Cities-based home builder, creating quality custom homes and remodels — one-of-a-kind dream homes of all styles and scopes. Whether you’re looking to reimagine your current space or start fresh with a new construction, we build homes that reflect how you live your everyday life.

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Allyson Case Anderson 00:03
I don't want the client to be in a referee situation. And I also have trades and staff to protect too. I don't want them working in this environment every day. I mean, it's a terrible, like, awful, awful situation, but to your point, when I wanted to terminate. It was really for his benefit, and I, and I pushed hard, and I should have held firm on it, because he just didn't know what he didn't know. Welcome
Mark D. Williams 00:33
to curious, bitter Podcast. I'm Mark Williams, your host today. I've got Allison case Anderson on from integral builders in Chicago. She's also been on episode 73 and today is a special treat. We are going to continue on with our series of losers. Are winners, and Allie, because you're such a winner, I know you must have been a loser at some point. I love, I love this intro. The whole point of this is to share, you know, how we've lost, how we've, you know, did dumb things, what we've learned from it, obviously, hopefully, each one of these little these little losing stories has Like what you learn from it in the future. And the goal of these episodes is really just to share that you can't you can't become a stellar company like yours. You can't succeed without failing. So if you want to know more about Allison's story, you can tune into Episode 73 but thanks for joining us on a Thursday, Ali, let the post Fourth of July. What you got? Did you blow up your fingers so then you couldn't work
Allyson Case Anderson 01:25
on No, I can't relocate. You know, as I get older, the less exciting I feel like I get. So I let the other people handle the fireworks, and then I clap or tell them to run away if they're hovering.
Mark D. Williams 01:38
I do like watching the Instagram clips of, like, people just doing completely dumb things with fireworks. It is strangely amusing.
Allyson Case Anderson 01:44
Yeah, I did go on a debt. Yeah, I definitely went down a rabbit hole of, like, people blowing up houses and things with their fireworks. What are you doing?
Mark D. Williams 01:52
Impressive. Impressive. Well, what I know you. You're a straight shooter. I think one of my favorite things about you is just like, how straight you tell your stories. And it just very matter of fact, I assume you have a fair amount of epic fail stories through your multi decade career. What, what do you think are some big ones? That is, you look back on your past have really helped you, and sort of, you know, really eye opened it and said, Hey, man, I can't do that again. And this is why,
Allyson Case Anderson 02:19
yeah, I would say, you know, a lot of the big mistakes I've made over the years have been interpersonal. You know, I came from a corporate background where there's a lot of synergy and a lot of passive aggression and a lot of, like, kind of fake positivity in order to get projects moving forward. And I think, I think my biggest mistake, especially early days, like, let's say, like, the first five or six years of my company, was really trying to push that like that everyone has to get along and everybody has to be happy all the time in order for this project to work. And also, like, I really pushed myself early days of being like, the architects builder, where we're coming in, we're all about the project we want, you know, like, we're not going to sell out the architect, we're going to only focus on the project. And that's all well and good until you're working with an architect that doesn't operate the same way. And so I think I was trying to apply an integral approach to everything we were doing, and it wasn't always landing right based on personalities. So I think one of the biggest lessons that I learned was that, you know, on these projects, being direct is not being rude, and calling out things for what they are, is usually the best case scenario. Like, I feel like I spent a lot of years really protecting architects on our projects. And if I was working with a really great architect, that served me well, but if I was working with a fast and loose architect, it really bit me, and in some cases, put me in some legal challenges with clients who were just confused. And then, you know, learning about the real story of what happened about any given situation in illegal mediation. Because at the time, I wasn't just calling it out for what it was. I was trying to protect the architect and sort of blase over a mistake that was made here or there, and then in the meantime, that architect turned around and changed the narrative in the background. So I would say, like, that's definitely number one. And then the biggest, the second biggest mistake I ever made was not diversifying my portfolio. So, you know, we were always doing custom we were doing architecture LED. We were doing custom homes, and then we were growing and then we started, you know, first we were doing $300,000 projects, and then we were doing six to $800,000 projects, and then we started doing multi million dollar projects. And the problem that we ran into is that when you're in the multi million dollar market of home building. It's totally different world, and it takes longer. So the projects take longer. Pre construction takes longer, building, the relationships takes longer. And so we ended up with these lulls in between projects. So even though we were maybe making more money because we were doing bigger, bigger projects, we over at the end of the year, we really weren't, because it was taking longer. We can't just get a project that cross our desks on March and started in June. We get a project across our desks in March and we're building it the following March.
Mark D. Williams 05:33
When you when you think about diversifying, you know, I guess what comes to mind is like remodeling new builds commercial. Or are you thinking even different, like price points, like, you know, hey, you could have new homes at multi million. You could also have new homes at a different price point. How, what does diversification look like to you? Or what, what would you have wanted it to
Allyson Case Anderson 05:55
be? Yeah, I would say diversification is different owner types. So, you know, on the custom side, it's like, okay, we're doing custom renovations, multi million dollar project. Then we're doing commercial build outs, maybe some hospitality, and then we're doing developments, projects that we own, that we're selling. And, you know, I started doing that, just like a couple years ago, within the last two years, because the economy is shifting, and the economy seems to, like every election, seems to directly impact residential construction, just the clientele. People pause, people get nervous. People get excited, right? It's like, we sort of go through this feast or famine thing, and sometimes as a buyer's market, and sometimes it's a seller's market and and so really changing the owner type is just having eggs in multiple baskets where money is flowing, you know, and having those residential developments that I own is really keeping the lights on, because if I'm the owner and I'm the builder, and then I also own a real estate brokerage, but it's like I'm the owner, I'm the real estate broker and I'm the builder. What that means is that I have multiple pots of money in that real and that development, but as long as I'm the builder, INTEGRO builders is the GC, and so integral builders always has a project that's paying the bills, that's paying the payroll. So I don't need to really make one dime on that residential development to make sure that my company is solvent any given year. So
Mark D. Williams 07:33
how long did it take you to figure that out? Like, because you've how you've been in business for what I can't remember, 1416, years. How long it'll be 13 years? 13. And what point did you start diversifying? And what was the actual scenario that happened that was kind of the light bulb moment, or did you sort of organically, just sort of kind of come into
Allyson Case Anderson 07:51
it? It happened. I started thinking about it about year 10, so that would have been two, three years ago, and I started acting on it about a year and a half, two years ago, and I'd say the catalyst for it was two liens in one year. I'm sorry, it was, what? Two liens and 102,
Mark D. Williams 08:09
liens where it
Allyson Case Anderson 08:11
was like, all of a sudden, it's like, it was, it all the cards just sort of fell. We had crazy, you know, crazy things happen, and then we just had this deficit of
Mark D. Williams 08:22
cash flow. So you were leaning, I assume clients, yeah, yeah. How long are those still playing out? Or,
Allyson Case Anderson 08:30
yeah? I mean, you know, the thing is, is, like, the average, you know, the average litigation, lien suit, takes, like, four years. This is sort of the problem when I say, I just did a panel the other week where I was like, you know, everyone thinks they want to do multi million dollar price. Million dollar projects, but the reality is, is, like, when, when really wealthy people get confused, they call their attorney like they don't call you. You know, if you're working on projects under a million, these are working people who are not so quick to do that. So I guess part of our other mistake too, is, as we got into the multi million dollar realm, we had to start really choosing who we were working with, as far as the architecture and design teams on projects, because the liability is huge. If you've got people who are not all about the project as the builder, all of a sudden, all that risk you're undertaking becomes very tangible in certain situations. So did
Mark D. Williams 09:23
you ever have a client that you felt like, you know, a lot of times, you know, if you've been building for a while, you've, at least, in my experience, except for one, two, you'd have a client, 34567, you know that when the clients usually, you know, you look back and you kind of post op, and you're like, what was that orange flag? Was it a red flag? It's obviously easy to look back in hindsight. And you know, I can only speak for myself, the couple that I've had that have been very difficult. I don't think there's anything I could have done in hindsight. I mean, I could sure I could have done certain things better, but, like my they were not red flags back at the origin point, so without a crystal ball or magic eight ball back. They had, you know, on the Should I take this job? The little triangle? You and I are old enough to know what those are. The millennials are like, What are they talking about? It's cool. Magic eight ball. You should buy one. Actually, I should buy one for my kids. But my kids would love those. There's such a great, sorry, just a nostalgic 80s moment, anyway, but it's hard when you look back and you're like, What do I learn from this? And there's little things, but we talk a lot. I know you've talked about this too. I mean, you've been talking about it now, identifying your ideal client, sometimes you just you, sometimes you just, you got a tough one, and there's nothing you could have done about it. And, you know, it's not that you can't do something about it actively, but you kind of just like in it, and you just got to get through it. How have you sort of managed some of those difficult moments when you know, you're like, Well, I'm, you know, halfway, you know, I'm halfway up to the top of Everest here. Like, it's as hard to go up as it is to go down, or, better yet, you're at the top of Everest. Because if you're halfway up, you could have just could turn around. But like, if you're at the it's like you only have one chance. You got to go to the end. You got to get back to base camp. What? How have you
Allyson Case Anderson 10:56
handled that? Well, I think mostly what I've done is, whenever I've had hard times on projects. I've really psycho analyzed it, like I just, I'm an over analyzer, like I'm I just get obsessive about it because I don't want it to happen again, and because we want projects to go well, you know, we want people to be happy. And I try and own our role in and whatever's happening. But I think there's so much emotional turmoil that happens on any project that's completely outside of our scope. But whether it's between marriages, between people's own personal attachments to money and emotions that surround that, that sort of project onto us, it's like I know that I'm getting the worst version of whatever person it is that I'm working for. And the residential side, not so much the commercial, but the residential where it's like, this is highly emotional for them. It's stressing every part of their life, logistically, emotionally with their you know, in their relationship with their partner. But I think if I so, I try and look back and see, like, Okay, what could I have done differently? And for me, the diversification came from exactly what you said where, you know, I looked back and I was like, we didn't do anything wrong, you know, like we didn't do anything wrong. We just had, you know, I mean, okay, maybe we had a bad architect on the job that could have done better. But in one case, we had a decent architect on the project, and we were in a slow moving in one case, we were in a slow moving car crash. We knew that the clients weren't going to pay like they were angling to try and negotiate a final payment halfway through the project. But we're halfway through the project. You know, you can't just up and leave and abandon your your clients like it doesn't look good to the municipality. It's not good from a reputational basis. And so I had to make you know the calculated risks. That's like, Okay, I'm going to finish this project at cost, because if we end up in litigation, I need to be able to clearly show that I built them a beautiful home in court, right? And then the other one, looking back, I did try and terminate that agreement early on, like in in rough where I was like, Ooh, this is this is bad. And I think when I look back on that one, I should have stuck to my guns, like the client, talked me out of it. And I think I should have, I think I should have followed my gut and then. So
Mark D. Williams 13:22
this is a new home or remodel. The rough end, it was
Allyson Case Anderson 13:25
a remodel, but we call it like interior reconstruction. So you want to basically completely re you know, like all the floors are down, all the joists are down. The roof is down, you know, we're keeping the exterior walls, and that's about it.
Mark D. Williams 13:39
So you your instincts told you that this was over, get a termination letter, get everything evened up, and then depart, walk us through that. What? What? You don't have to go into specifics of what led you to want that, but it sounds like the client talked you out of it, and then you must have finished the project. And then thought, Man, I should have, I should have stuck to my guns. Is that the short of it?
Allyson Case Anderson 13:59
Yeah. I mean, there was a really bad dynamic. I was just really where it was coming from, is the architect was completely unqualified for this was like a project where we had gone under contract. It was supposed to be a $2 million project. It was turning into a $4 million project while we were under construction. That was hard enough in and of itself. But then the architect, instead of leaning into us and us kind of huddling together to for the benefit of the client, the architect turned on us and then was trying to gaslight very obvious problems that were occurring as a result of the project fundamentally changing during construction. So everything was, everything was turned around on us. It was like, at which it was very difficult because, like, we have to communicate, like, when there are changes and change orders and things like that, we really traditionally rely on the architects to back us up, you know, and if there's an issue, it's generally handled. On the side, together with the design team, we come to consensus, we come to the client together, unified. That's what's best for them. But in that situation, I could tell that the architect was freaking out and was like, completely unqualified. We didn't have an interiors team. They had never done interiors. You know,
Mark D. Williams 15:20
this was this project brought to you by the architect? Or did you come okay,
Allyson Case Anderson 15:24
yes, and so, and I just really and they were getting hostile and doing all the the nasty things that come along with that, but, and there was, like, the gaslighting and the manipulation of the situation, and I just felt and the client was buying into it, and that's where I was like, this is just a bad situation for us. I don't see a pathway to completion. This
Mark D. Williams 15:54
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Allyson Case Anderson 19:32
Not anymore. No, because, like, we didn't make it,
Mark D. Williams 19:35
you know, Oh, you, oh, you kept going into and it still didn't make it,
Allyson Case Anderson 19:38
yeah, and it just got worse. It got worse and worse, like I was, I was 100% right, you know, and I tried to terminate again, like six months later, where I was like, Look, I'm telling you, like it's not, it's not working, like the architect needs to work with a GC that they want to work with, like we were, you know, they consider. Every RFI to be a judgment on their behalf, like they're not, you know, and it's like, I don't want the client to be in a referee situation. But I, and I also have trades and staff to protect too. I don't want them working in this environment every day, like with your architect. I'm, you know, it's, I mean, it's a terrible, like, awful, awful situation, but to your point where it's like, right, when I wanted to terminate, it was really for his benefit, and I, and I pushed hard, and I should have held firm on it, because he just didn't know what he didn't know. And my point was, like, look, we'll finish rough framing. We'll finish rough framing. We've done the foundations, we've done the underpinning, we've done we've installed the windows. We can warranty that in the termination, which will allow you to hire a qualified contractor to come behind us. That contractor can call me, be like, Allie, what's up with this project? And I'll be like, all good. Let me just it. Just didn't you know we weren't jiving with the architect. It's bad. Like, go ahead, I know you have a good relationship with the architect, like you take it over. That would have been the best case scenario for him. But now, you know, we're six weeks from finishing, and I'm finding out. You know, he's run out of money. The house isn't insured. He's doing backdoor deals, like architect is floating around in there, taking kickbacks from subs. Like, architect was taking kickbacks from subs, and it was really the bank who shut the project down. And then I was like, okay, like, we're not this is again, it's like, okay, we were now two years later, and I still didn't see a pathway to completion, which is what I told him again, I'm like, it's not even that. I was like, the problem is I can't finish like, we can't we. We aren't finishing like, there's still a change order. Every day there's a change order like, the design isn't coming together. We're not able to collaborate. This has only gotten worse, and now your architect is telling you it's okay to do these other things that are not okay. Like, now you're in big breach, but also, like, we don't want to be here forever. That's really where it landed. And I was like, I don't know. Now you can't hire another contract, a qualified contractor to take over. Now, what do you do? And that's what I told them. I'm like, I don't know. I don't know what to do.
Mark D. Williams 22:19
So how did it, how did it terminate then? So
Allyson Case Anderson 22:23
it really hasn't, like, it's just been in limbo.
Mark D. Williams 22:26
Oh, it's still sort of actively in limbo.
Allyson Case Anderson 22:30
I think he's mad and but he's got that's the problem where it's like, you have to be a united team, because if the client starts playing referee, that means they have to choose a side. They have to choose who's right and who's wrong, and there's so many technicalities and everything that come in that it's an impossible situation.
Mark D. Williams 22:48
I've got a great quote for you. So the designer I'm working with right now, I've said it a few times, but I gotta give her credit, and her name is Laura, or sorry, Linda angler, and she's been around a long time, and she has this great line. I heard her say to one of my clients, I'm like, I gotta write this down. And her comment was, the entire team needs to be on one side, because the project will always fight the team, and we can't have anyone on our team, not on our team. So architect, builder, client, designer, all in one team, and then the project over here, and I'm thinking, like this, Bull, right? Like This bull's like, you know, or this, you know, wrestling like a giant whale in the ocean, like, you need the entire team fighting that one thing, because the project fights you it, you know, delays, weather, whatever. And so I just thought that was so such a unifying statement. I've given her a lot of credit for that, because I really, really appreciate, you know, that mindset, and I've had it before, where I've even interviewed people on the podcast before, where they're like we you know now it seems like a lot of builders are trying to get into the consulting phase or the client rep phase in other states, which I'm not opposing to that. I think that might be beneficial, especially if there's a relationship. But I interviewed someone who is an architect, and the architect was also the owners rep, which I was a little confused at, yeah, your eyebrows were as confused as mine were. And I was like, so wait a minute, you're the architect and you're the owner's rep. So how does that work? Exactly right? And so anyway, I never, I mean, you must be an amazing sales woman, because their clients do it on all the projects which and I get, if you got a good one, you got a good one, I'm, I'm just sort of interested, like, what sort of the nuance of that is? Because how is that not just different than just saying, hey, this person has right of first refusal on all things? Because it's fine. I mean, I'm sure there's, there are situations where the client is like, I mean, we had busy clients were like, hey, whatever my designer picks, just do it. Like, okay, let but I need to make sure it's in writing, and we need to make, I mean, I've never had that scenario, so I'd be kind of curious, if you because I could see that running out and being a problem where, you know, even if they're writing it, they still need to be informed of it. But I would imagine some of these really high end clients that are, you know, multi multi millionaires and beyond, you know, probably have teams that make a lot. Decisions for them. I'd be very curious to have someone like that on and say, so what happens when you get to the end and something's wrong and they're like, Well, I didn't approve that. You're like, Well, you told us to go with whatever they picked. This is what they picked. Have you ever had a scenario like
Allyson Case Anderson 25:15
that? Yeah. I mean, we, we make everybody approve everything to the nth degree, because, yeah, like, that stuff happened. Like, I've had clients come back to me who have signed a physical sample of something, and then came back because they didn't like it, and are like, no, no, I didn't approve it. It's like, you proved it an email. You approved it on the schedule, and you signed
Speaker 1 25:39
the back of it, and what did they say? How did you resolve it?
Allyson Case Anderson 25:43
It was, there was really nothing they could do, you know? I was like, the answer is yes. The question is, how much yes, we can change it, you know?
Mark D. Williams 25:51
So, I mean, I you need to be my counselor. I had one very recently where exactly what you just said, they they approved it, they sign the sample and the stain was, I mean, I, I'm actually colorblind, so I so I, I'm color deficient. Red and green are my colors and so, but I'm serious, that's actually true. And so I tell my clients every time they ask me for opinion, I used to give people my opinion. I don't give my opinion anymore. Ever on color. I always say, That's my card. I The designer picks the colors. But anyway, so this color came down and they asked. He's like, Well, is this the color that you would want? I'm like, that's not really. I can tell you if it's, like, installed correctly. I can tell you if the finish is good. Like, did my guys do a good job? Yes, but like, the color, that's not really where I hang my hat. That's interior designer, and frankly, that's you. You're the homeowner. Like, do you like it? Everyone sees things slightly differently anyway. Long story short, this is what is so difficult about our profession is, and this is where I feel like I've, personally, I've been, I'm not gonna say victimized, because that's a little strong, but like, I'm sort of held hostage to my own humanity sometimes. And I think a lot of builders are, I think I would benefit for us. I picture you as kind of a badass who just says, who has a better job at saying no than I am, because, like, my the way I handled it was, they were I and they didn't even have to do this. I did this to myself. Hey, there. They've been a good client up until now. They're in an area I want to work in. They have a lot of friends. You know what? I can spend $1,000 should I do it? Or sorry? Is it my responsibility? Myself into a hole here? No matter how I say it, I kept coming back with like it's the right thing to do, even though it's not my issue. So I took care of it, and then guess what? I had to do the rest of the floor, and then the stairs. It just kept going. It was a cook, and they never remember the thing that you did for them. But there was no way, once I start that, there's no way kind of out of it. And so I, I don't know if I've learned my lesson on that, because it's still they're unhappy with it, and our job is to make them happy. It's just that you're again, you're trying to find people, if you can base it in Logic, I can work with you when they start going beyond out of the logic tree. I do have a really hard time with that anyway. I don't know what I'm supposed to do, because I keep, I keep falling trap to kind of a similar scenario. I don't escape my own sort of sensitive.
Allyson Case Anderson 28:02
Yeah, it is hard because, like, as the builder, you know, there's so much trust that your clients are putting in you. Once they sign that GC agreement, they're locked in, right? Like, our price is the price, and that's a big, big, big responsibility. And I love how you said, Yeah, you're like, you're, you know, you're like, it's your own humanity. Is like, what hurts you on projects? I mean, I think that's really common for me. I just learned consistency is kindness. If there's a change, there's a change order, and that's kinder to them than they know, because they know that if they're making changes, they can expect a change in price, so that they're not playing the lottery with favors, you know? Because, yeah, and then you're locked into a situation where, if you do it once, and then you don't do it later, when you don't do it, it feels like a punishment for some reason. And they feel like you're communicating something beyond the thing and, you know? And frankly, if you give, if you give a minute, they're gonna take a mile. Like, that's just, that's just how it goes. Because their personal, you know, it's their personal money for us, like, we're architecture led, and we do that for a lot of reasons, but one of the primary reasons is, like, I'm a firm believer there's no room for ego and construction. Like, you just gotta eat dirt every day. Like, that's our job as the builder. Like everyone, no one can do what we're doing, but everyone's got an opinion. An opinion about what we're doing and how we're doing it, right, and so that's walking the fine line. But the benefit of that is that I I enjoy looking up on a project, to the design team and to the architect, and being like, you tell me, like, I like being third on the totem pole because I feel like it does absolve me of, like, design selections, and also, if there is an issue, like, if I'm working, if I'm working with a great architect on a project like that, architect is going to buffer a lot of that for me. Like, if a client comes and they're like, I don't like the color, like. A lot of times it's the architect who's there with me, next to me, being like, this is unreasonable, you know, like, and I need that support, especially the larger the project, the more the liability. And if you don't have a strong architect that can stand next to me and be like, Okay, this is, you know, like, what she's saying is reasonable. This is not, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They may not like it, but it'll be easier for them to swallow. It's less of a me versus them, you know. And the I feel like a really good architect help, helps keep it business, and that's really what we want. But again, going back to the challenge of that, that means that now I'm working with a handful of architects, you know, I can't just work with any architect on a project like that, otherwise I'm going to end up in a situation where I found myself painfully realizing, like, oh, we can't just work with anybody. And also, I can't just keep hoping things are going to get better, like they're not. Where would you
Mark D. Williams 31:01
Yeah, I mean, we've learned a lot of good nuggets here. I want to respect your time as well. It sounds like we could go on for this one. Could be an hour long, actually. So thanks for coming on the podcast today for our Thursday Q, a for the audience, we're kind of mixing it up a little bit. Thursdays is kind of a variety show, but we're going to be doing a sequence over the next six months of basically interviewing people like Allie around the country, that just talking about difficult situations kind of a peek into our businesses, how we struggle, because every business struggles, and a big part of what we want to do on this podcast is share that so that we can all learn from each other. Thanks again for tuning in the Kirst builder podcast. We'll see you next Monday. We've had the podcast now for two and a half, almost three years now, and we have a consulting page, one to one consulting you can book my time for one hour. Perhaps you've heard a guest where you like one of the topics. Maybe you want an introduction to some of the guests that I've had on. Perhaps you want to talk about branding or marketing or anything that we've covered on the podcast over the last two and a half years. You can book a time at curious builder podcast.com Ian thanks for tuning in. The curious builder podcast. If you like this episode, do us a favor. Share it with three other business owners. The best way that we can spread what we're doing is by word of mouth, and with your help, we can continue to help other curious builders expand their business. Please share it with your friends. Like and review online, and thanks again for tuning in