Episode 108 - Not Just Lumber: Why People, Vision & Values Are Dakota County’s True Product
#108 | Sunny Bowman | Not Just Lumber: Why People, Vision & Values Are Dakota County’s True Product
Culture isn’t just a buzzword—it’s the foundation of growth. In this episode, Sunny Bowman shares how her team lives their values, why EOS transformed communication, and how being a woman in a male-dominated space became her superpower. This one’s for any business owner looking to scale with soul.
Listen to the full episode:
About Sunny Bowman
Sunny came into the business in late 2012 with the intention of learning about the high-level management of the business, and helping steward the business so that her dad would be able to retire.
She quickly fell in love with the business, the construction industry, the people she got to work with on a day-to-day basis, and realized she wanted to play a much more active role.
Today she serves as the “Chief Everything” Officer—the President/CEO, CFO, the General Manager, and the de-facto Sales and Marketing Manager (small business is like that—”all hands on deck”). She bought her parents and her older brother out at the end of 2018, and is now the sole owner of the business.
She’s looking forward to watching it continue to grow and her goal is to double+ the company’s revenue at their current location, and to expand to at least one other strategic location in the Metro area.
Sunny wants to continue to build on the foundation that was laid by her dad, and will continue to raise the bar for service among lumber dealers in the metro area.
Resources:
Find Dakota County Lumber Co.’s Website here
Follow Dakota County Lumber Co. on Instagram here
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Sunny Bowman 00:00
Ian, I was having some success and, you know, like, but I realized that the thing that I enjoyed was looking at the financials and deciding when to hire and how am I gonna market. And my dad had always said, growing up like, signing like, business is business? Like, it really doesn't matter what you're doing. And I mean, I think now that I'm into it, like I would, I would argue that, like our business is the best business, the building industry is the best but, yeah, I just, you know, all of a sudden, having my own experience that finally clicked for me, I sunny
Mark D. Williams 00:44
today on the podcast, we had Sonny Bowman from Dakota County lumber inn, and we just had an awesome podcast episode really talking a lot about culture fit, setting your core values. And Sonny really talked about, if you're going to scale your company and grow it, how dedicating time to your people and inspiring them really, is really the pathway forward for any company, regardless of your size. So if you're looking to scale your company, if you're looking to understand how culture can really Trump strategy, you're going to want to listen to this episode without further ado, here's Sonny Bowman. Welcome to cures builder Podcast. I'm Mark Williams, your host today, I'm joined with Sonny Bowman from Dakota County, lumber out of Minnesota. Welcome sunny Hey, thanks for having me and you came on a sunny day. Pun intended, I sure did. It's beautiful. You must get really annoyed with dad jokes like me that always, you know, basically make a fun way to comment on your name. Like, how often do you meet someone? Someone's like, make some sort of sunny joke. I would say
Sunny Bowman 01:39
99%
01:41
of the time. 99 I'm pretty
Sunny Bowman 01:43
immune to it at this point. It's fine. What are some good
Mark D. Williams 01:45
ones you heard over the years? So
Sunny Bowman 01:46
the ones I don't love are, like, the sunny and Cher jokes, because that's spelled. So when I'm Su and I get like, kind of, I don't
Mark D. Williams 01:53
even know what a sunny and Cher joke is. I mean, I know who they are artists, but what's the
Sunny Bowman 01:56
joke I don't know? Like, it's we're Cher like, Oh, I thought you skied into a tree, like, it's not good, like they're not good. But anyway, so it's, there's a whole bunch of those. I also get, like, oh, like, I thought, I thought you were in charge of the weather and that sort of thing. But I'm, I'm a second generation Sunny. My aunt is actually named Sunny, so I just always so you weathered the storms before. Yeah, and, and the best thing is, like growing up, I was little sunny, and she was big Sunny, and I've been larger than her for a long time, like I'm a I'm a very tall person, and she's still big Sunny, and it bugs her, and it's the best so well,
Mark D. Williams 02:34
for those that don't know who you are, why don't you do a brief intro of the company that you own, and let's talk a little bit how you got into it. I have a ton of questions for you and people locally in Minnesota. You know, you'd be hiding under a rock if they didn't know who Sunny is. So this is for people probably outside the state, but I don't give a brief intro of who you are. Yeah,
Sunny Bowman 02:50
yeah. So I am sunny Bowman. I am the president and owner of Dakota County lumber company. We're a second generation that's me, second generation building materials dealer on the south side of the Minneapolis St Paul metro area. So we're a single location. We do about 30 ish million dollars in revenue, which makes us pretty big for an independent lumber yard, but smaller, a lot smaller than the big players. So we're in kind of a class of our own here in the market. And yeah, Dakota County lumber is just been going for 40 years. At this point, we just celebrated our 40th anniversary, and we sell to professional contractors, like yourself, luxury builders, that kind of thing. And we're really hang our hat on our service, and we go to market on this thing that we call the perfect delivery, which is just that we get you what you want, when you want it, and we don't screw up. Sounds like a low bar actually is a really high bar in the industry, and we do it really well. That's
Mark D. Williams 03:43
amazing. I think probably what I imagine one of the secrets is the fact that you are smaller and more nimble, you're able to essentially execute quicker.
Sunny Bowman 03:50
Yeah, definitely. I think that we have enough size to be super competitive, but we're small enough that we can make adjustments. We can still treat our contractors like the individual that we are, and we have a really deep customer focus. So we understand our customers. Aren't afraid to tailor something to just one builder, and kind of make adjustments as we need to for them. And we really partner with our builders. I think a lot of people say that we do, and again, we just actually do it. That's will be a big theme today, just kind of doing what you said you're going to say you're going to
Mark D. Williams 04:23
do. Yeah, no. I mean, it's, it's funny, I'm a, well, I'm a third generation builder. And I remember asking, before I became a builder, I remember asking my parents, who were builders and designers, like, what makes you successful? Thinking that they would have some epiphany or some amazing like, you know, quote, right? That you see in a quote book, I remember my my, my dad was like, open doors for women and old ladies. And, you know, say please and thank yous. I'm like, dang, the bar is super low here people. And they're like, oh, and call people back when they call you, like, that was your top three things. Like, yep, that's your top three things. And it's amazing. That even today, how often just being polite, being courteous, being thoughtful, saying please and thank you. Honestly, it's like, I don't know. I think just being trying to be a good human. And then how do you incorporate that company culture as well? Yeah,
Sunny Bowman 05:13
the amazing thing is that, like, not that many people have the discipline to do that consistently, day in and day out. So be a good human is actually, like, one of our company values, and I used to say all the time when I was interviewing people, like, if you're a hard worker and you're a good person, you're going to do fine here. Like, that's all we ask of you, all we need. You know, now we have this list of six core values that we hire off of but when it comes down to it, business is really simple. It's doing what you said you were going to do. It's being the same person behind the scenes that you are out in front of the scenes being the same person in the office that you are when you're out on the job site in front of the customer. And as long as you can have that character consistency, I think that you'll survive hopefully.
Mark D. Williams 05:53
Why do you think that vision statement and values? Why do you think that's important? And how have you proven it to be important, since you've sort of implemented them.
Sunny Bowman 06:01
Yeah, so we've actually been on a journey. I don't know if we've talked about this offline mark, but so we run on a system called Eos, which is based off of the traction book, not because it's any magic system for running your business that is wiser than anything else, but because having like it, for me, it's like pushing the easy button on running your business where it tells you, okay, you're communicating with your employees at this pace, at this rate, you're getting together weekly as your teams and all of that kind of stuff. And we then, through Eos, we have our vision traction organizers. So we have our vision and our mission and our 10 year target, our three year plan, our one year goals, our 90 day goals. And I think it's so important to make sure that everybody's rowing in the same direction in your business. We were able to do it. I was able to do it just kind of based on white knuckling it and gut feel for a long time. And when we hit, you know, the 3540 employee mark, it just got a little bit harder, like I felt the wheels wobbling a little bit from a communication standpoint, I couldn't individually communicate. This is our goal. This is our vision. This is where we're going to everybody and make sure that they were aligned and on the same page. And when you're super focused on your customer and all of your customers getting that top level experience, everybody on your team needs to be aligned from the person that's building the load out in the yard for us, you know, all the way through the person that's going to take payment and process returns like everybody needs to know what the customer wants and what we're trying to provide and communicating that just got a little bit harder. So having everybody aligned with the vision and talking about it really often became pretty important for us. So we use the traction system to do that. We have quarterly state of the company meetings where everybody comes together and they hear straight from me, this is where we're going. This is where we're heading. We have weekly meetings. We have quarterly check ins with your managers. We have all of that kind of stuff, just so that we can make sure that everybody's staying on the same page and that our customers are getting what we want. And it also it really helps with buy in like we've been trying to grow and we have been growing, and have big plans to continue to grow, and I, as the owner of the business, of course, have so much ambition around this is where we're going. This is what we want to do, but to expect that every single person that works for me, is bought in at that same level, just by, you know, existing and being a part of the business would be sort of naive, and so I have to kind of light that fire under everybody. And having our vision written out really helps, do you and
Mark D. Williams 08:33
I've never thought about this before. I mean, at the classic owner myself included, is we have big ideas. We have lots of ideas sometimes, you know, I just recently did on the way out to Vegas at IBS, I did my vision statement for the next, well, one, 510, and 20 years for the cures builder brand, as well as Mark Williams custom homes. And it was really therapeutic to, like, Get out of my head and write it down, because I think a lot of owners just have it up there. But I think there's a lot of purpose in not only writing it down for track ability, but also expressing it to your team. And I guess where my question is is, you know, if you we have a small team, you have a much bigger
Sunny Bowman 09:09
you said, 60 people. No, we're still about 4045. 45 people.
Mark D. Williams 09:12
You know, each person is sort of motivated by different things too, a large degree. Have you found because, how long have you been the owner and the President now. So
Sunny Bowman 09:20
I have been effectively running the business for 12 years. I have been the owner since late 2018
Mark D. Williams 09:28
so well over a decade. So or I'm going with this is everyone has, I think we want to meet people where they're at to some degree. Hey, Mike wants this in his life and but it's a lot to remember, if you have 35 goals of 35 other people to know what drives them? I'm not saying people shunt. I'm just saying that's a big, big thing. Or do you have a company goal, and everyone sort of buys into one goal, so then you only really have one goal. You have to sort of track what would your comment be on
Sunny Bowman 09:56
that? Yeah, I think that that having a company. Goal, and hiring based off of that is super important. So we end up being able to hire people, we sort of sell them on the vision in their interview, and if they're bought into like, Hey, this is the plan that I'm laying out in front of you. This is where we're going. This is what we're doing. It's going to be hard. It's going to I'm going to ask more of you than my competitor down the road, I'm gonna, you're gonna have to read books after your hire. There's all kinds of stuff that that I ask you to do, that maybe somebody else wouldn't. But with the ultimate goal of, hey, this is where we're going. You want to be a part of something. I think it creates, creates buy in. There are statistics about, you know, Gen Z and Gen Alpha coming up, and even some young millennials, like, really, really valuable.
Mark D. Williams 10:41
We're starting over now at alpha Ian, yeah,
Sunny Bowman 10:44
oh yeah, no, it's gonna be done. No, we're not done Alpha. It's starting over again. I think they're gonna come up with a different, different term for it,
Mark D. Williams 10:52
like, it's like, hurricanes, right? Or tornadoes, like, they just name it after. You know, every year, just every year, just, there's
Sunny Bowman 10:59
never been a hurricane, Sunny. So back to the call, back to the start of the podcast, at least I have that going. You got that going for you? Actually, I don't know if I've historically checked that, but, but yeah. So, so the younger generations, they want meaningful work, right? They want to find meaning in their work. And so having that vision and hiring based off of that, and getting them to buy into the company vision, I think, is helpful. We still do check in with them, because, I mean, it was a ways into running the business when I realized that not everybody was just, like, straight motivated by money. Shocking, like, just absolutely shocking to my personality. Isn't it
Mark D. Williams 11:32
weird that, like, I think I've recently looked at this a couple months ago, I think, like, money is like, fourth or fifth on the list, yes, of why people either go, or even why people leave. It's, it's, I'm not saying it's not important. It is. We just had someone on the podcast recently, Sam and Andrew teet, their builders out of the bell point company out of Ohio, and something that was really interesting on their website. This is probably more uncommon for builders. Maybe it's more common for the field that you're in or the ownership that you're in. But they like a job posting. They put right on their marketing manager, 57,000 to 75,000 like the person that was helping them hire people, was like, money is very important to people, but that's not the reason why you want to hire someone. You want to hire them for their skills and what they mean to you in their company. Culture fit, but obviously money has to be addressed at some point. So why not put out the thing that's uncomfortable, put it right on the front page. And I just was like, man, I've never seen that before, especially among builders and remodelers. I thought it was really refreshing. Anyway, going back to your story, is how people especially, because it seems like you have a very young company, which actually, I just see the energy. I actually say I feel the energy like when you show up in the room, not only you yourself, but your kind of entourage, of your team. It feels like the mood changes like, hey, the cool kids
Sunny Bowman 12:45
are here. I've been a cool kid in my life, right? Here we are. Yeah,
Mark D. Williams 12:49
cool lumber kids, yeah. But where I'm going with this is, how often are people reaching out to you and saying, we'd like to work for your company? We see the energy and the support that you bring to the community. Where is that in the narrative of how people are coming to you?
Sunny Bowman 13:03
Yeah, it happens, actually pretty frequently, and we've been working on it. It's been a stated goal for us for the last three years, is that we, you know, we know that we are trying to grow. We're trying to, you know, double in size in the next few years. We're trying to and keep our character, very important to me. That's the thing that keeps you up at night, is keeping our character while we grow. But we're going to need to have twice as many employees as we have to do that revenue a little bit less, hopefully with some efficiency gains. And we want to be a destination workplace. And so we work on it through our marketing. We work on it through, you know, referrals with our within our own employee base and that kind of thing. And we do get people that come and they say, Hey, like, we see what we're doing the and that didn't used to happen like Mark. When I took over in 2012 we were your local small town lumber yard that had a reputation among the people that knew us for doing a really great job. My dad built an incredible business. And also people in Farmington knew about us, which is, you know, south edge of the metro, like people south of the river knew about us, but nobody in the in the broader market, really knew who we were. We were respected in the vendor community. But beyond that, like there wasn't a whole lot of of name recognition, and we've really had to build to the point where now, you know, when somebody calls, if we have a recruiter call for, you know, a sales job, or if we are, you know, taking applicants in, like, they'll say, hey, we even had a truck driver applicant the other day that said, hey, like, I've seen what you're doing the market. I want to be a part of this company, which is incredible. And it was a, it was a long road to see that sort of pan out.
Mark D. Williams 14:38
But were they out of curiosity? Was that particular truck driver in the industry? No,
Sunny Bowman 14:43
they were from outside the industry. They were in our community. So we market to our local community and like kind of the surrounding areas when we're talking about employment for our frontline employees, because the commute is always interesting. So it was somebody that had seen the way that we support our community. And you. Really enjoyed that, the way that we talk about supporting local sports and causes and the open door, food shelf and all of that kind of stuff. But some people will come from other companies, and then they see what we do on the market.
Mark D. Williams 15:13
I want to go back at some point and talk a little bit about your dad's company and you growing up, but we'll pin that for now. Come back to that, because I want to ask you, my first sort of seeing sunny on the radar was just seeing you consistently showing up for other people. And it was at, you know, you're very involved with Minnesota Housing First, I see you at all the tours, and a lot of people do, but I feel like it's somewhat unexpected for the owner of a lumber yard, because there's a lot of stereotypes that would probably follow the owner of a lumber yard and right or wrong that, you know, like any business has stereotypes, builders have stereotypes. I mean, I actively try to combat several of them, right? You know, we won't go into it right now, but like wellness and all those types of things, is not typically we associate with our industry. I love the fact that we have a woman led owner in as of owner of a lumber yard, which, again, there's number of stereotypes here that were sort of shattering. What was one of your driving factors? Did you realize, looking around that your peers were older, multi generational men, and if you were going to kind of break out of this mold and take your company to a new level, you had to basically operate on a different kind of playbook, or, or is that just your natural personality, or a little bit of both? Like, I just feel like I see you everywhere, all the time, and you're only one person. I don't think you have a twin. Yeah,
Sunny Bowman 16:31
I don't. I wish I did sometimes that would be helpful. A clone would be really so
Mark D. Williams 16:36
it's a pretty big question. But you know, for 12 years now, I guess I can't pick the exact date, but let's just say probably about four years ago is kind of when I started noticing you on a regular basis, kind of like everywhere, and then exponentially over the last 24 months. That's just my observation. I'm just one builder in the community. How would you react to that sort of observation in your in your own journey.
Sunny Bowman 17:00
Yeah, I'm very strategic, and so it has been strategy. And there's this great quote, and, I mean, it's just kind of a concept in business, but that that self promotion isn't bragging, it's strategic when you own a business. And it's taken me a while to, like, feel comfortable with that and step into that, but we've been seeing it, pay off. So I would say, when I first started running the business, there was a lot that I needed to do just kind of get my arms wrapped around it, get our own house in order. I was upping the level of professionalism, taking that hometown yard, making sure we kept our stripes, who we were, what we were known for, that customer focused feel, and then leveling up a little bit and being able to be known in the market as somebody a little bit more professional, and that could play with the big guys. I did look around and see that, hey, my competition is run. I was unique generationally. I mean, there are many multi generational lumber yards across the country. I was one of the first ones in, I would say my generation, because I started running the business at 25 which is very young, and especially when everybody that works for you as a man that's like twice your age, fun, adventure, they're all lovely, and it's been wonderful. But yeah, so I looked around and I kind of realized I had some runway. Our competitors in the market know who I am now, and they were aware of my dad's business, but I don't think they were real concerned about losing business to us or anything like that. And they were at a different point in their career where maybe they had that youthful energy a couple of decades before and had really gotten in there and made some changes, but I wasn't seeing that happening in the businesses around me, we were coming off the Great Recession, and people were trying to figure out how to sell the builders post Great Recession, and things seem to be on autopilot. There have been a lot of people that have been consolidated and bought by private equity because of maybe a lack of an exit strategy, or maybe that always was. The exit strategy was like, Okay, the next generation doesn't want to come in. So I saw some runway, and I took it honestly. And so started, you know, getting involved in Housing First Minnesota has been a wonderful vehicle for us. And the Housing First Minnesota Foundation, which does incredible work to combat homelessness. I I didn't have marketing dollars that I could could spend there, but I knew that I could contribute my time and my talents, and so just started showing up and saying, like, Hey, how can I help? And, you know, one opportunity led to the next led to the next, and pretty soon I'm on boards and leading committees. And honestly, had some like, wonderful, supportive men in the industry that that sort of pushed me forward into some of these roles, because they saw, my energy and my fire and said, you know, she could really help. And when I started showing up in these ways, more opportunities would come. You know, we got some, some press. I was on like, the front page of the one of the local newspapers, like, mid pandemic, like me, just like standing there in front of stacks of lumber, like, giving quotes about, like, lumber pricing that wasn't. The wild, like, just stuff like that. And part of it is like, I look different than other people in the industry, and so it's a fun story. It's a good angle. And at first I grudgingly would accept the press, and then I realized, like, Hey, this is actually really good for our business. I'm gonna lean into this a little bit.
Mark D. Williams 20:22
I This episode is brought to you by Pella Northland. For 20 years, I've been using Pella windows, and I couldn't be happier to call them as a business partner, a trade partner, and someone that really supports us in our quality builds. You know, we use wood windows and doors on every single one of our homes, and 98% of every home that I've ever built has been a Pella window. I've gotten to know their team here, locally as well as nationally, and the way that they support us as a craftsman as well as they support our homeowners with their lifelong guarantee. It's actually been a game changer for me. So when people ask me who I use, I recommend Pella. If you want to hear more about Pella story, you can listen to episode one, where I interview Peter and Ed from Pell Northland about their journey into the pellet ownership,
Sunny Bowman 21:05
the whole company, we've had to again, rally around that, that idea that like self promotion isn't bragging, it's strategy, because we are very like head down do what you say you're going to do, sort of people, and getting all of all of my crew to allow us to highlight the good things that they do and understand that that's going to push us forward, and it's best for all of us, if we actually talk about what we do well, has been a bit of a challenge, but they've started like again, they've seen the benefits of it, and it's it's working. I
Mark D. Williams 21:35
think, you, you know, I think sometimes it's hard to define what leadership is, but I think it's pretty easy to identify leadership. I don't think any would would mistake that you're the leader of Dakota County lumber. It's interesting, though, have you found that? Because you obviously are the face of the company, and, you know, I know you and a handful of others, but I mean, mainly, you are such you're so far out in front and promoting the company and your brand. How do you balance where everyone wants your time? Like any owner of a company, especially you're much bigger than, let's say, my company is, but I find that as company scale, including your clients, which I guess in this case, I would be one of your clients too, right? As a builder, but everyone sort of wants you. And it's not that we don't depend on our teams. Honestly, every builder, any business, has the same issue, to a variety of degrees. I'm being recommended right now for a rather large project, because compared to my competitors, I'm viewed as well. Mark will be there all the time, and obviously I'll sell to that, because it's a great way to sell, of course. But the truth is, I have a team of very talented five people like my pm knows way more about actual structural construction than I do, and I depend on Mike. He's awesome. It what we sell and what we are. I'm not saying it's different, but it means different things to different people. And I guess where this terrible question is going in trying to frame it is, how much of your time people just want you versus your team, and how have you balanced that? Because you want to grow and you want to double, I assume it's going to continue to be an even bigger issue.
Sunny Bowman 23:05
Well, yeah. And, I mean, I have young kids, I, you know, like to actually spend time with my husband because I married him, you know, because we like each other and and that sort of thing. So, you know, you're balancing a whole bunch of other things as well. I think there's a couple of things. One is, so one of our company values is do whatever it takes. Sorry. Eos, I'm just going to throw our values at you all the time, and when I explain that to our new hires coming in and reiterate it, and you know, like, give kudos around it, and that sort of thing at the office, it's not that I want everybody just killing themselves all the time, doing whatever it takes for the customer 100% of the time it's it's about applying, like, the right amount of pressure at the right moment, right? And so that's sort of how I view myself as as well as, like I my team knows when they need to put me in you know when, when it would be impactful to have me in a customer meeting, when it would be impactful for me to take the phone call and talk to the person directly, as opposed to them handling it like they I think, because they understand the feel that we're going for at the yard, that it needs to still feel small and accessible, and that's part of our brand. They use me in the moments where they need to. And then the second thing is, I've been working with a leadership coach. I think if anybody out there doesn't have a leadership coach, like, it's a, it's a wonderful investment, just especially as a an owner and entrepreneur, as a person at the top, that isn't really, I mean, you're accountable to everybody, but you're also accountable to no one at the same time, to have that, that person that you are sort of accountable to is, is really helpful. And this leadership coach has has been talking with me about, okay, like, what are the things that only you can do, being a little bit more strategic about where I spend my time, what committees I'm on, what boards I join, all of that kind of stuff. And I have where earlier in my career, I might have headed up any committee that I was asked to. Now it's okay, like, No, I'm going to save time for a board. See it, or I'm gonna I think that I could be more impactful here. I used to help plan like the housing first foundation Gala. I did that for a few years, chaired that committee, and then it was time for me to move into a different role, and I hand selected an awesome person to step into that chair role and let them shine and have their moment. And she has since done that for the next person, and the gala has just continued to grow and expand. It's going to be the biggest one yet this year. You allow other people to step up as needed, but are still present and available. If they need me at the gala, they can put me in if they need to call me and get a sponsor like that. That's that's the kind of thing that I, I try to do. So it's just being really strategic, while also being aware of what the customer expectation is. I think,
Mark D. Williams 25:44
I mean, I like the answer. I mean, I think, in a way to simplify the answer, it's really leadership is the answer. Because by empowering other people, you essentially empower your brand and your story to be bigger than yourself. And I I think it involves trust, right? I mean, you have to let go. Scary,
Sunny Bowman 26:00
yeah, honestly, like, I've been on this journey of going from, I don't know if it's a great analogy, but being a player's coach, to being a coach's coach, right? Like, from being that person that's going to get in there and grind and set the tone, and this is how we show up, to being okay with not being the one that's in there grinding and still asking my team to do it for me, and that that's actually, that's been, it's been really hard as somebody that was always like, captain of the team that, like, set the tone and that sort of thing. It's been a different level of leadership, but, and, and it's scary, because you're worried that people aren't going to do it the way that you would. And, and also, there's like, a perception, for me that it's like, well, I don't ever want to be seen as that absent owner that's checked out, that's letting you know, oh, I've got people for that. But also, if I want to drive the business forward and make sure that I'm keeping my head clear for seeing around corners and knowing what's coming in the market and handling those big relationships like there are some things that I that I have to let go of and I have to trust the good people on our team. And we have just incredible people
Mark D. Williams 27:03
that have stepped up. And that's actually something I wanted to talk about. It was just how we already mentioned, like, when you walk into a room, I call it, you're entourage. You just like, you know, Dakota County is here, yeah, talk to us a little bit about, I think it's called the cohort program. Is that right? Yeah, we have our leadership cohort. Yeah, it's really intriguing. I was reading a little bit about it on your website, but tell us a little bit more about that. What inspired it and where you find it. How is it working? Yeah,
Sunny Bowman 27:26
so we have this thing at Dakota County lumber. We call it the dcl leadership cohort, and it's for our young and rising leaders. So sort of anybody at the company, no matter the position that you're in at the time that we see has potential, leadership potential, like you can self nominate. You can be nominated by a manager. We pick the group to keep it tight, and then run a cohort every year. We've been, only been doing it for the last two years now, or we're in the second year, so a year and a half. So we'll see how it evolves over time. But it was just born out of, honestly, being a small business. And if you work for one of my competitors that's run by a big corporation, for example, they've got a corporate ladder for you to climb. They have defined career paths. They have these pay levels and all of that kind of stuff. As a small business, we don't always have that. It's like, okay, if we grow, more positions will be available. I don't know exactly what order they're going to come in. Like, how they're like, I can't give you the same thing that corporate America can give you in terms of a career path. So what we wanted to be doing was making sure that we were developing people so that when the time was right and we were ready, all of a sudden, we're like, hey, we need this position. We would have somebody ready, kind of on the bench, waiting, and again, one of our core values
Mark D. Williams 28:46
is, leave it better your Eos coach right now, just like silently clapping. She's so happy.
Sunny Bowman 28:51
So one of our core values is leave it better than you found it. And that we we say, relates to people as well as you know, places and things like, it's not just like straightening up the the paper towels in the bathroom, you know, like it's it's making sure that everyone that interacts with somebody on our team is better for having done that. We think that way about our employees as well, and the cohort is a way to kind of leave them better than we found. And we know that some of them might take these skills that we're giving them and move on and find a different career path, and that's okay. We just hope that they're better off for having interacted with us. So we've been teaching,
Mark D. Williams 29:25
yeah, no, I think it's amazing. It's like you've got your own triple A farm team for baseball within the company. How often do you see people within the industry migrate to you, and how often are you seeing people within your company leave? Yeah?
Sunny Bowman 29:39
Yeah, that's a great question. We're a small business, and we've been in growth mode, so we've been acquiring more than we've been having move on generally, if somebody, generally, if somebody doesn't work at our company anymore, it's because there wasn't core values alignment. We'll have hired them and thought that there was, and then find that they're not. Sometimes there's a different pay. Opportunity or something like that, but very rarely does somebody leave on not great terms. We have brought in a lot of people from, like I said, there's been a lot of kind of acquisition in the building materials industry and corporate roll ups and that sort of thing. And we've brought on a lot of people who maybe stayed through that and gave it a good try. And then a couple years in, when the big company that owned them started acting like a big company, they were like, Yeah, I started working here when it was a small business. I'd like to go back to that. It's
Mark D. Williams 30:31
funny, our recent hire, we have a project coordinator that just started, and I call her a unicorn because her name's Angie, but she worked for a semi production builder. And I think when they started, they were much smaller. And my controller, Joel, they actually worked together five, six years ago, and he had mentioned, hey, I'm working with this, this young company. They've got a lot of interesting things going on. Why don't you come back to what it used to be like? And so it's kind of this interesting model where, when you are young and you have lots of energy, or I don't feel like I'm that young anymore, 21 years in the business, we got lots of energy. But I guess my point is, is like, when I think, when people feel like they can make a difference and make a change, that is something very appealing about a smaller company. I think, at least from my own Pitfall, I feel like I would benefit greatly from, like, an US system. And I'd be curious to talk later about how small can it go? Does it have to be a certain size, if we can scale up to have a leadership team? Is what am I going to tell have a leadership team of what one other person or like, the mirror, like, who it's like, it's either the whole company's leadership team or no one is and it's like, at some point you have to hit a bit of a critical mass where some of this stuff can scale. But I'm guessing what I'm going with is just like when you have a company culture like that, you've developed, people want to be a part of it, and they're really excited. In some ways, there's so much that you don't have to tell them, because if they care, a lot of caring solves a lot of problems. And I've normally articulated this before, but I'm just thinking about it now. You know, we're talking about our both of our parents, or even, like, when I was saying, like, some of the the basic principles that you do, just as being a good human, to apply it to being business. But like, if you just care, like, if you if your client, whoever your client is, can see that you care. Like, honestly, that's the majority of the issues will probably get resolved. So like, how do you create an environment where
Sunny Bowman 32:13
people care? Yeah, I think that just like reminding them who is at the end of every delivery all the time, like I said, we sell on the perfect delivery. Like that. We're what does that mean? So it means that it is on time, it's in full it's everything that you asked for, that we asked the questions about where you want the delivery, on the job site, we did all of the work. That's
Mark D. Williams 32:32
a novel concept, by the way. I know, right? They get dumped in front of the driveway and you can't get into the house,
Sunny Bowman 32:37
blocks your dumpster, or like the homeowner opens their garage door and can't back around the pile of lumber. It's incredible. But yeah, so it's where you want it, it's when you want it, and safe. It is friendly, like we actually try and make contact with people on job sites, not at seven in the morning. We're not gonna go ding the bell on your homeowner, but within reason, we're trying to actually the amount of times that a truck just like, pulls into my driveway and set something down, and not ours, but like from other companies, and you're like, I didn't order a fridge, but thank you. So we just try and go the extra mile. And when we talk about the perfect delivery, it's a concept that my whole team has rallied around. But it's not the perfect delivery for the perfect delivery sake. Us doing a good job could be the difference between our builder's kid getting to play sports this season or not. There's a family at the end of this there's livelihood if the builder, if we set them up for success and they have a good year, maybe they can hire somebody else. Maybe like, their reputation grows in the market and just like always, bringing it back to that sort of human element, and we hire good people that care. And they care about people they might not like. It's hard to care about something abstract, like pulling the lumber load correctly, but it's easy to care about people when you are a good person. And I think just like constantly closing that loop and circling back and saying, like, hey, there are people at the end of these big yellow trucks that are coming out to your job sites, I think keeps everybody sort of aligned. I
Mark D. Williams 34:03
think something that speaks to me like, obviously, I would like to be on the receiving side of kindness, meaning as a human being, as a business owner, as a person, but something that also means a lot to me, I guess, and just comes to mind is like children, if you see someone being kind to your children, you instantly like that person, right? And the opposite is true. If you see someone sort of like throwing shade on your kids, you're like, you kind of want to go mama bear on them, or, in my case, Daddy bear, right? Yeah, I was, I took my daughter out skiing to out in Montana for for the first time. She's eight and a half, almost nine. And I ski very aggressively, and I've never thought much of it in 43 years. And then I'm skiing with my little nine year old and two other little girls behind me, and I'm kind of doing the daddy daycare instructor thing, and all sudden these snowboarders are ripping by, and I the self righteousness in me was just, I wanted to absolutely level anyone within like, 100 yards of me. And I was like, wait a minute, dawn on me is like, that's you idiot. Like, that was you before you had children, like, so before you cast a stone, you know, look in the mirror, or I'm going with. US is just the power of kindness and seeing it and how like, obviously, my my people, you know, my project manager, my controller, who are a small team, when I see a client, treat them very kindly. Or I got a really nice email the other day from one of my designers, just complimenting someone on our team. And I read that letter, actually sent it to everyone on our team. You need to hear this. This is amazing. I was really and I called that designer. I said, thank you very much. Like, it's easy to hear a compliment, or to write a compliment and to say it, it takes a lot of effort. I just, I want to applaud that. We need more of that. Because regardless of how stoic someone is or isn't, it needs to be said, and it's and it's very well received when it is. And so I think you and I as owners, like, obviously, when we see our people being treated well by either our clients or their peers or even people in the industry, there's something in us that that, how could we not feel good about it? Yeah,
Sunny Bowman 35:52
no, definitely. I mean, and kindness creates more kindness too, right? Like, when you're treated well, like you're more willing to go out and create more good, and we just focus on that as well. Where it's leave it better than you found it make the world a better place. What are we spending 40 to 60 hours a week, on my salesman side, try to keep everybody work life balanced a little bit closer than that. But what are we spending all this time doing, if it's not for something a little bit bigger than just making money, right? Like we are trying to make our communities better, our communities stronger. We're trying to make the industry better. We're trying to set a new standard for how people feel like they should be treated, what their expectations are, that sort of thing. And so tying it into something a little bit bigger, I think, again, keeps everybody bought in, and yeah, and then creates more good, like, even if it doesn't directly reflect back on us, or come from us, if somebody sees my guy's doing something good, and then they go out and do the same thing, like,
Mark D. Williams 36:46
it's a good day, right? No, that is amazing. What would you say if you were to isolate what drives you
Sunny Bowman 36:53
relentless, perfectionism? No. How do you want to go?
Mark D. Williams 36:57
Yeah, this is therapy. I mean, I don't have a couch you can lay down in, but we'll make it work.
Sunny Bowman 37:02
Yeah, I, I am a, like, a deeply philanthropic and charitable person. I You've probably heard that in my answers so far. Like, I, I went to school, I was a political economics major with, like, French also on the on the side, because why not? And I thought maybe I would work for the State Department or go start a nonprofit in Africa and just save the world, right? Like, that's sort of, sort of was the game plan going through college, and then found out I had a knack for business. And I really think that, again, like small business is, like, the greatest, maybe the greatest, maybe the second greatest, engine for good in American society that that exists. Like we employ more people. Statistically, we give a much higher percentage of our profits back to the community, to charity, all of that kind of stuff. We keep more dollars in the community. And so I'm super driven, at least at Dakota County lumber, by the idea of like, hey, if we do a good job, our builders can do a good job. They can sort of participate in this, like, hey, supporting the community, creating more good, putting more good out there, and more good comes back. So I would say that that that definitely drives me. I also have a pretty deep Christian faith, and so just the idea of like, we're not here for ourselves is definitely overarching.
Mark D. Williams 38:18
Yeah, you can see it and feel it. It's funny because last year we because we'd had Mark Osterman from the joy collaborative, and you had helped support Mark's mission, which is to help children. I think there's 66,000 kids with life limiting disabilities in the state of Minnesota alone. And it was really, again, goosebumps, just talking about it. We have one coming up here pretty shortly, actually, and it is, how do you help people that need help? And I'm always amazed at how many people step up. Thinking of our painters, our cabinet shop, you other people in the community. I think when it becomes real, especially community driven, I love seeing communities come together. And I think you've got to say our building community, not only locally, but across the country. Podcasts like this, telling stories. It's all part of this sort of the same message, which is finding people together, sharing stories to essentially lift each other up and let people know they're not alone. Like loan owning a business can be very lonely. Like, for instance, I know that a lot of lumber yards, I think are in buyers groups and builders. We talk a lot about builder 20s or contract coalitions or, like, we have the curious builder collectives here locally in a few other states. But how do you as a business owner, collaborate with other business owners? Do and do you have, are you part of a buyer's group, and is that also part of, like, peer to peer, you know, think tank, if you will?
Sunny Bowman 39:36
Yeah, so we have a few things that we do because, yeah, like I am. I don't need to reinvent the wheel. I think that we're doing some new and different things, but like leaning on the great ideas of people that are doing the same things that we're doing, it's, it's like the press again, pressing the easy button like to be able to do it. So we're in a, we're in a buying group called LMC, which is the, it's actually, I think, the second biggest black. Buying block in the country behind builders first source I believe, don't fact check me, but so we're able to buy collaboratively. And they do a ton of they do round tables and education and that sort of thing. Also, like the local lumber dealers associations have round table groups. So right when I started running the art in 2012 my I was thrust forward, and my dad really stepped back pretty quickly, which was actually kind of genius in the way that it worked out, but I was sort of left to figure things out. I mean, he was a safety net. I was able to ask questions and that sort of thing, but I immediately started seeking out other people that knew what they were doing and asking lots of questions. I was just the chief question asker for a long time, even the dumb ones, there are dumb questions to me, but I will, I will always be the one that asks them anyway, because why not? So I joined a round table group of local, non competing yards, so spread out over kind of the Minnesota region. And we've been with that group for 12 years. At this point, we've now grown to the point where we're like the second biggest in the group, but the biggest sort of Metro yard in the group. And so then a few years ago, I hopped in with another group that was facilitated by the same person of dealers on the east coast. So I would have some people to chase, oh, like it's somebody that had gone from 30 million to 100 million in revenue and what that looked like, and be able to ask those questions of somebody outside my market, and it's so helpful, like it's the people that you meet, the friendships that you gain are second to none. Having people that understand your business in a really nuanced way is just incredible. And then I have people around the country that I can bounce ideas off of or say, Hey, we're gonna try this. And has anybody ever done this? And sometimes it's like, no, go get 'em. Kid like, let us know how it works for you. And sometimes it's like, oh yeah, we tried that a couple years ago. This is what we would do differently if we tried it again. So it's super helpful. And you know that, I know you guys talk about, like, collaboration over competition all the time. And it really is true, like, there is so much business out there to be had, that I think that if you sit there trying to, like, hang on to all your ideas, and, like, I have the best ideas, and I don't want to share them with anybody, and that sort of thing, like, it just doesn't you can sit there and live in a scarcity mentality, or you can, you can understand that, like, hey, there's a great big world out there, and we can all get better together, and that's definitely where we fall.
Mark D. Williams 42:26
I mean, I love that. I mean, I think it's really empowering to hear that. I wonder, how long have those been, how the group's been getting together? Because I'd like to think it's more of a recent thing, but I don't think it is. I think it's been around for a long time. Yeah, there
Sunny Bowman 42:39
have been round tables in the lumber industry for a long time, and to the point where it's like, we have to sign like, you know, antitrust agreements and we get together because, you know, way back in the day, they would get in trouble for collusion and price fixing and that sort of thing. It's like, No, we will not talk about
Mark D. Williams 42:53
price we have to kick out the Rockefellers and the carnegies again. They own all the railroads. I music.
Mark D. Williams 43:07
This episode is brought to you by adaptive. For over two years now, I've been using adaptive. It's an incredible game changer. It's AI technology based. It helps you with Bill Pay and as a builder, there's very few things that Angular subs more than not being paid on time. Well, those days are gone. Not only do you know exactly where you are, but you can pay people through your ACH channels, making draws extremely quick with one click of a button, which used to take hours, my office staff is now able to generate a draw to the bank or to the client in literally seconds. The thing that I appreciate the most about adaptive is their ability to keep changing we've given them three or four feedbacks on things that we need as builders, and within just a few months those they're rolling those things out. This is saving us hours per week and days per month in terms of our efficiency. If you're looking to upgrade your business, I'd highly recommend adaptive. You can reach out to them@adaptive.com or listen to the curious builder Podcast, episode 15 or episode 80, where we dive into their origin story, going back to your childhood, your political aspirations and maybe some of just idealism to try to change the world. And obviously we can do that in a number of different ways, and you're continuing to do that. But at what point did you realize you wanted to be involved in the family business and walk us through, because I think we've had a ton of husband and wife teams on. We've had father and son teams on. We've had, I feel like building in particular, I don't know the actual again, don't fact check this, but I feel like there's a high degree of family run businesses that are multi generational within the construction industry. And so your answer, obviously, and I have a young daughter, and I've often used to say, like, I never want, like when I hit I have so many hobbies, like when I hit 60, like I'm done, like I want to go do it. But now I'm actually sort of like, you find different things that sort of inspire you and encourage you. And I'm kind of like, and who knows what my daughter may will want to do, but she would be a rock star. Or owner, and so it kind of has me excited. Like, okay, I just don't, I'm not gonna say never anymore, because if she wanted to be a part of it, like, honestly, that would be really fun. At what point did you know? And at what point did your dad know? It was your mom involved too, or was it just your dad?
Sunny Bowman 45:14
She was a she stayed home with us. So, I mean, definitely played a huge supporting role, as anybody with a spouse understands, but now he was the active operating partner. Walk us
Mark D. Williams 45:23
through that relationship the early years, when it sort of dawned on you, and maybe some of his perspective, I think that'd be really interesting.
Sunny Bowman 45:30
Yeah, so I never thought that I would be in this business like growing up. It just it didn't even cross my mind that I would run the lumber yard. And I don't know if it did. I have an older brother, and I think we thought maybe he would do it. But my my dad, never put pressure on us like he was an entrepreneur. He started from scratch, he built his business, and he always said, Oh, if the kids don't want it, I'll sell. That was his plan. We grew up, we played sports, we did school. I was big hockey player. Went really into school, went my own path. Was excited to go to college and then go save the world afterwards. And was in college during the Great Recession, which, like, I think it started for the building industry late 2005 even. But I was in college oh five to oh nine, really hit and oh 809, and came out of college still never thinking that I would be involved in the family business while my dad was back to work, tightening the belt, doing all the things that you do to make sure that your business survives during that sort of time. And then we watched a lot of competitors fall out of the market during that time. To my parents credit, they didn't lay off a single person. They poured their retirement back Oh yeah. They poured their retirement back into the company. Their whole goal was just to keep the doors open. And it wasn't for them and it wasn't for us, because, like the kids, we didn't think we were going to be involved. I moved to Charleston, South Carolina after college, and I ran a professional organizing business for a while. I just looked around was like, oh, people down here have a lot of money. Like, what can I do? I can organize class. Just I'm going to figure this out. So I organize. Organized people's closets and offices and all that kind of stuff. And it was when I was doing that that I all of a sudden became interested in the family business. So I was running my own business, and realized that, like, yeah, like, was that a franchise or something you did on your own? I did it on my own, yeah, just, you know, had an idea and was like, I'm gonna, just gonna scrap and figure out,
Mark D. Williams 47:22
I think we had Lauren oslop on from the neat method, was it something akin to that?
Sunny Bowman 47:25
Yes, very similar. Yep, I know. And all the like the home edit now is it has their Netflix show and stuff. I'm like, I was doing that, like they just are better at marketing it anyway. But I was having some success and but I realized that the thing that I enjoyed was looking at the financials and deciding when to hire and how am I going to market. And my dad had always said, growing up like signing like Business is business. It really doesn't matter what you're doing. And I think now that I'm into it like I would argue that like our business is the best business, the building industry is the best but, yeah, I just all of a sudden having my own experience that finally clicked for me. I was thinking this, oh, maybe I would actually want to be involved in the family business and but I you know, we're good, a good Scandinavian family, so we don't talk about our feelings. The Minnesotans listening will understand that's funny. And I guess my dad had been thinking like, oh, I don't want to put pressure on sunny, but she would be really good at this. And I think we both had, like, expressed this to my mom, and
Mark D. Williams 48:25
you're probably what, 2322 at this time, roughly 2324 right
Sunny Bowman 48:29
in there. And we both expressed it to my mom, and she finally, like, when I was back for a visit, she was like, put us in the car, going up to the cabin together. And was like, you're tuning to talk. It was a very quiet car ride for the first little bit, because I don't want to, I don't want to be entitled. I'm not entitled to the family business for you to turn it over. But I've been thinking that what you do actually doesn't sound that bad anymore. What was your dad's reaction when he said that? I think internally, it was like, Oh, thank God. I don't have to. I don't have to work until I'm 70 anymore. Because his plan was always like, retire by 50 sort of thing. And then the recession hit, a plan was born for me to learn what from that car ride, from that
Mark D. Williams 49:06
car right, right there. Oh, that's awesome. I'm sorry. How far was that? How long was the car ride?
Sunny Bowman 49:10
It takes about three and a half hours in Grand Rapids. Yeah, it was, yeah, we figured it out. And I was originally just gonna learn what he did, the kind of, like, really high level, like, the banking whatever I because I still wasn't sure I wanted to get my hands dirty, you know what I mean. And then I got in to doing some of that, and started learning and asking questions, and realized, like, oh, well, we this general manager maybe isn't doing what they're supposed to be doing, and we need to, we probably need to replace this person. So then he went, or I let my dad Exit, Exit him. And I was like, I can't hire for a general manager until I understand what he's doing. So I'm gonna do the job for a little bit. And I just, I didn't give the general manager's job up for about 10 years. So I decided I really liked it. And
Mark D. Williams 49:51
I would imagine that was pretty I mean, that was your, I mean, that was your boot camp training. Yeah, right. I mean, understanding everything about it as. The GM, yes,
Sunny Bowman 50:00
yeah. And that was and so while we were doing that, like there were, my dad was still coming into the office for a few months, and I was noticing there were some things that I wasn't getting read in on, not because anybody was intending to keep me out of it, but just because it's a small business, and there are patterns and, like, it's more efficient just to go talk to my dad. And so I mentioned that to my dad at one point. I was like, Hey, I'm not learning about, like, the fleet, and a huge portion of what we do is we deliver materials, like it's trucks, to not think that I would be a fleet owner growing up. And I told him, like, Well, I'm not learning this, or I'm not learning that. And finally, and he, like, looked at me, and he's like, okay, so I'm gonna pack up my desk like, we live. We are. I grew up about a block away from the yard. He's like, I'll be over at the at the farm if you need me, and you just come over on your lunch break and ask me all your questions, and they will have to loop you in because they won't be able to find me.
Mark D. Williams 50:56
That's amazing, dude, your dad sounds like a baller. I love that. I love how he might drop that. Did he have a little did he have a little, like, 12 by 12 cardboard box that you see like in the movies, you're like, I'll pack it out. I'm walking it out. Like, security. Can you please? What was your dad's name, Steve? Please walk Steve out to the front door. He's a
Sunny Bowman 51:13
sport. Steve out. Yeah, we're not that high tech. But yeah, no, it was pretty funny. And, like, for a founder, there was just no ego there. And like all he cared about was the future of the business and me learning. Like he had full confidence in my ability to figure it out, and so he just let me figure it out. And was a great safety net. I would go over there sometimes two, two and a half hour lunches, and just I was thinking this, and what about this? And ask all of my questions, but then I was able to go back to the yard and give people the answer that I came from me wasn't like, oh, I need to go check with my dad. It was like, oh, I need to go figure out how to think about this. And it just got me up to speed so quickly.
Mark D. Williams 51:52
I mean, before he had a coach, he was the coach. Oh yeah, oh yeah. How did you get how often do you he's completely exited the company now, Yep,
Sunny Bowman 51:59
yeah, when I bought, when I bought the rest of the family out in late 2018 he
Mark D. Williams 52:03
retired, how often do you reflect together about that stuff? Oh, all the
Sunny Bowman 52:07
time. My mom gives us on holidays. My mom gives us, like, a 10 minute time limit where she's like, this is like, it's Christmas. I'm like, okay, but they live, you know, they live very close, and so we see each other a lot. We're a big skiing family, so we go out and ski with them. They have a place in Colorado and get to spend some time together and that sort of thing. But we do have to tone it down some time, because he still loves it,
Mark D. Williams 52:26
and I want his DNA for, oh, yeah, however many decades. Yes,
Sunny Bowman 52:30
absolutely. I think, I guess one thing about my story that I do kind of want to call out, just from like the women in construction perspective, is I've talked about this on other shows and that sort of thing. But the fact that I didn't see myself like I grew up, watching my dad build this business, seeing the incredible opportunity that it afforded our family. I mean, like, he paid for my college, right? Like, completely I didn't have to take out loans. And like, that was because he built a business. He started with 2500 bucks, and he built this incredible business. Like I saw that, that that was possible, and I still wasn't. I didn't think it was for me. And I think that, like the as I reflect on it, I think that that is because there wasn't anybody that looked like me in the business. So I kind of thought it was like, oh, maybe my brother will do it. It's for boys. Like, I thought, like, I saw, like, the lumber yard. It's a lumber yard. Isn't glamorous, right? The office, we've judged it up a little bit. It's gravel and like, bumps of lumber and big trucks and all that kind of stuff. And I didn't see anybody that was an example of what I could be, yeah, my dad. But even because my dad doesn't look like me, like I I couldn't picture myself there, and that's why I'm a little bit passionate about I don't want anybody to buy from us because we're a woman owned business. I want you to buy from us because we're the best in the market at what we do. Like we're the best. You should buy from us based on our merit. But I do want to highlight the fact that we have wonderful women that work for us so that more girls like your daughter can maybe picture themselves doing this one day. Because I think there's part of it is like, oh, maybe we're not accelerating women or promoting them at the same rate or that kind of thing. I don't think that happens too much on the residential side of the industry. I think we're very open to like women and men can do whatever jobs they want, but it's sort of a supply issue, right? Like the girls don't even come to us wanting a job because they can't picture it. Since I have been in the business and have been a little bit more forward with promoting myself, we've had the amount of female applicants that we've had has skyrocketed, and so we're at about 30% female now, which is pretty good. We're about parity in the office, and then we still it takes a special woman who wants to go out and work in the yard. And we've had a few, and they've done really well, but yeah, so we're making progress, but I think that getting more women in the industry really is. Going to require elevating those stories. Yeah,
Mark D. Williams 55:01
I love the fact I've just said it many times on the podcast. I didn't actually realize I was doing it. I look back, I think we've had the podcast now for about two and a half years, and I was looking back, I think we're at, like, episode 112, or whatever we're at, and looking back, I should actually count now, but I felt like I kept interviewing designers and architects, and I looked I was like, man, it's like 40 to 50% of who I've interviewed are women. And I guess I'm always gravitate towards an interesting story and interesting people, and my mom being an interior designer and my dad being a builder. And I was a kid. You're a kid. You don't even think about those things, right? But to your point, you have role models. You have ambassadors. You are an ambassador to people, to our field, but not only that, but to all the daughters out there, every dad who has a daughter, and anyone who wants to just empower other people and lots of opportunity. And I feel like our community is super open. Maybe I'm really biased, because I love our community, but I just feel like we have a very supportive, you know, from leadership at housing first to what I see from other builders. You know, in fact, I noticed that the other day we have this architect collective, and half of the people at the table were women architects, yeah. And I was like, there was this little moment where it came across my brain. I was like, this is really cool. You know, fairly male dominated industry. And to your point, there needs to be talent that needs to be the merit. But I think people do gravitate towards, hey, we want to see a change. We want. And everyone has different motivations. I mean, motivations. Maybe I see my daughter, maybe I just see someone I want to spend more time with. It's just or just interesting people. I think everyone has different motivations. We're just here to have a microphone and share stories and try to do the best we can, to elevate everyone to your point earlier, collaboration over competition, because there is so I think the way forward, especially as was it, 10,000 baby boomers are retiring daily. You know, how we act as a community has to be together, and there's a place for everybody. And I feel like we have a building as a very inclusive field. In fact, I just read before you came on, there was a young framer that was here, and there's this narrative that keeps being pushed. And I'm sure the numbers back it up that, like, I've said it a number of times, there's six or seven HVAC masters are retiring and one are taking their place. I don't doubt those stats, like, I believe those stats to be true, but there's this narrative that there are no young people. There are so many young people, they're all coming to me, yeah. I mean, yeah, they're, I mean, I see them like this, you know, these young framers as I look around on my team. And I'm not saying there's not a few that are long in the tooth, but man, there's a there's an energy among the youth. I think they see an opportunity to own their own business. And that's a narrative certainly on this podcast that I want to share and promote. Because, to your point, you know, owning a business is a foundational, I think, tenant, of how the United States has really done what it's done, and I don't want to lose that. And whatever we can do to promote that, I think it is great for all of us. Yeah, absolutely.
Sunny Bowman 57:48
Yeah. Business owning and home ownership are just like building blocks of the American dream, and there's a lot that can be done. I do think we are seeing young people coming into the industry, at least with us, and I think maybe they don't want to come into a business that's just set and forget and running the same way that it ran 40 years ago. Like, if you're If your business isn't growing and evolving and you're not changing the way that you do things to sort of adopt and modernize and keep up with the times. Like, yeah, maybe, maybe young people aren't going to come your direction. But I think that there is youthful energy and ambition and fire that is coming into the industry, and it's our job to figure out how to to capture it, and also to adapt to new expectations for workers, employees, work, life, balance, all of that kind of stuff. Like we can, we can do this. We can evolve.
Mark D. Williams 58:39
I like I like that adapt. I think that's a powerful thing. As we kind of exit here the interview, what you mentioned just because I love book reading, hearing what people are reading, it sounds like part of your Eos. Everyone in your entire company is reading on a regular basis. Do you guys have quarterly books that you're reading? Is it just leadership team and maybe that question and what book are you currently reading? Oh, okay,
Sunny Bowman 59:00
so our leadership cohort reads something different every month. They've done, you know, radical candor, they've read traction, they've done the One Minute Manager meets the monkey, which is great for delegation. Wait a minute, what was that one? Oh my gosh, it's such a good book. I need that one. The One Minute Manager meets the monkey. And you will once you read this book. It's a parable by Ken Blanchard. It's an older book, but it still fits, and you will not look at the tasks that you need to delegate the same way again, because he tells you to like, picture them as though they're like, monkeys jumping all over your office and like. So
Mark D. Williams 59:35
it's the visual I'm already picturing right now, a bunch of little monkeys jumping around like, oh,
Sunny Bowman 59:39
you go give somebody else your monkey. But you need to give it. Like, you know, there's all these there's rules. Like, you have to have monkey like, feeding and checkup appointments to make sure that your monkey's being taken care of.
Mark D. Williams 59:50
It's like, don't take, like, Sugar Babies. Like, this is so funny. This is amazing. Okay, I'll get the
Sunny Bowman 59:54
book. So, yeah, that's a great book. I'll send you a copy. We've got some in the office, you know, Extreme Ownership, like, there. There's a whole bunch of them that are in our leadership library. What I'm I'm leading reading a couple right now to prep for future cohort discussions. But the one that I'm listening to on Audible, I don't know this is not a promotion of this book, but it's, there's parts of it. There are parts of it that I really like. It's called relentless by Tim
Mark D. Williams 1:00:18
Grover. Just finished it a couple of months ago, it was intense. I loved it. Yes, it's
Sunny Bowman 1:00:22
so intense. And it's right now when we're recording, it's spring spraying in the building industry, spring in the lumber industry. I mean, I got competitors breathing down my back, all my customers all the time. It's fun, right? We're in the fun times, and there's tariffs and there's all the things. So having Tim Grover like telling me that I'm a cleaner, you know, like he's, he has this whole metaphor of cleaners and closers and whatever, I played sports growing up, and so he was, what, Michael Jordan's, Michael Jordan's,
Mark D. Williams 1:00:49
yeah, and so, I mean, for those that haven't listened to it, I mean, it's been a little while, but, yeah, I mean, he, he was Michael Jordan's only coach for a while, and I think his only client, I think, wasn't the line in the book that I think Michael, I think he commented, like, why do you pay me so much? He goes, I don't pay you because you're so you because you're so good. I pay you because I You're the only, I'm the only one who wants you to be my coach, like that. Yeah. He felt like he was his special power, if you will. Yeah, yeah. So he wanted them all to himself, yeah. And
Sunny Bowman 1:01:12
he went on to coach COVID And Dwayne Wade and these greats, and he talks about what makes the greats different. And so it's just, it's just, it's intense, like you said, it's a next level, like, the whole chapter about the dark side and whatever. Like, I'm like, Oh, sounds a little unhealthy. Maybe we should do some therapy. But like, these guys that have that extra gear, like, to
Mark D. Williams 1:01:32
me, it was all about mindset. Yes, I was mentioning the other day when we were I was running hills with a friend of mine, and I think everyone's relentless or Extreme Ownership or competitive nature. At the end of the day, we're all racing against ourselves, right? So let's be honest about that. And there's 1000 people that are a million people that are faster. That's not really the point. But if you can be on this hill training alone, net on the middle of the dark like whatever it takes for you to run up that hill is the thing that you need, and if you have to create these artificial monkeys jumping on your desk, or whatever the mental game you have to play to get yourself to do that. I think it's great. I'm all for it and push yourself. And we were commenting, I had a friend of mine who just turned 40, I'm 44 and he had just mentioned he's like, Oh man, I'm 40. And I was like, dude, 44 is awesome. I said, you know, my 44 four year old self could kick my 30 any 30 year olds absolute booty because of mindset. And I think that's really cool, whatever. It's not about age. I think that's the thing. And when you realize it anyway, books like that are just really empowering, yes,
Sunny Bowman 1:02:29
yeah. And it's so fun, so just, let's, like, get you fired up, and you're like, you identify with parts of it, and that sort of thing. And it just like I said, spring in the building industry is always a little bit chaotic, and it's
Mark D. Williams 1:02:39
everyone's scrambling for a first couple contracts, like it gets I just someone just called me the other day and said, Hey, with your recommendation from someone that was on your podcast, actually, and they said, We'd love you to removal of our house. We're flying into town and and then I sent him a design routine like, Oh, we're not sure about that. We're actually interviewing five other people. I'm just like, Okay. I was like, that's fine. I said, let me know. Yeah. But I said, we don't do work for free, right? But I said we do a great job for you, you know, let's talk about it, yeah, and so I don't, I don't know what that was yesterday, so we'll see what happens.
Sunny Bowman 1:03:08
Oh, you gotta, I mean, that's, I guess, you know, takeaway for the listeners, and they probably don't know this, but like, You got to stand on who you know you are. And like, especially when the environment gets competitive, yeah, they can try. Like, we, we know that we do a great job. We know that we offer this level of service. We know that we're priced where we're priced. And like, that's fine. People can come, people can call people. Can you can be bidding against five other guys, five other companies. And, I mean, we, we usually,
Mark D. Williams 1:03:32
yeah, we usually don't do that to us. It's hard when you take away the relationship aspect, yeah, it's kind of, it's kind of the main thing. Yeah, it is. And so, you know, some everyone, every business owner, has been the place where you are bidding on something, you're like, Well, okay, I get it. I gotta bid on it. And so anyway, the relationship isn't gonna be if it's not their key thing, you're taking away my number one asset, yeah, but doesn't mean I still can't compete.
Sunny Bowman 1:03:56
But if the customer, I think, isn't as invested in the relationship as you are, they probably weren't your kind of customer. And again, abundance mentality, like there, there are going to be more people out there that are the perfect project fit for you. They're going to be more builders out there that that are going to appreciate the relationship. And like, everybody gets a little shiny objects, enjoy them every now and then, once somebody dangles a low price in front of them. But you just got to be confident. Yeah,
Mark D. Williams 1:04:19
I appreciate your time for coming on the podcast. We'll have everything in the show notes. If anyone wants to reach out to sunny with a U, not an O, yeah, and no share and no sunny and share jokes, please, or you will be excommunicated. Yes, thanks again. Nice for that. That's true. Yeah. All right. Every Monday, we have one hour episodes with business owners across the country, and every Thursday, we have Q and A's. Thanks for tuning in the curious builder podcast. Thanks for tuning in. The curious builder podcast. If you like this episode, do us a favor. Share it with three other business owners. The best way that we can spread what we're doing is by word of mouth, and with your help, we can continue to help other curious builders expand their business. Please share it with your friends. Like and review online, and thanks again for tuning in. If.
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