Episode 114 - Building a Business That Lasts: Lessons from National Builder of the Year

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#114 | Rick and Amy Hendel | Hendel Homes | Building a Business That Lasts: Lessons from National Builder of the Year

Rick and Amy Hendel didn’t just win National Builder of the Year—they earned it through years of refining their business, investing in their team, and leading with values. In this episode, they share what’s changed (and what hasn’t) since their last appearance, the systems that drive their growth, and the mindset shifts that made the biggest difference. If you want to run a tighter business, lead better, and think bigger—this one’s for you.

Listen to the full episode:

 
 

About Hendel Homes

Hendel Homes has a reputation for the highest level of quality in some of the Twin Cities’ most premier residences. Knowing each homeowner’s preferences and needs are different, Hendel discovers each client’s distinct priorities. By developing this strong working relationship from the start, project construction is often faster, less tedious, and more cost-effective.

Rick’s desire to build beautiful residences, while providing clients with the highest level of value, architectural authenticity, and craftsmanship, led him to create Hendel Homes. He is committed to creating a one-of-a-kind, timeless design for your residence maintaining integrity in every aspect of the process.

Amy’s design expertise, hands-on approach, and constant communication with the client create a trust and personal connection that ultimately lends itself to “peace of mind” during the process.

  • Mark D. Williams  00:00

    If you haven't registered for the contractor coalition summit yet, please head to the cures builder podcast.com, under events or directly to the contractor coalition summit.com for event details. It's June 19 through the 23rd if you're looking to level up your business and take that next step, trust me. As someone who's gone four times, I can't tell you how valuable the information is that is shared, as well as the connections that you make with builders across the country. Head to contractor coalition summit.com to learn more and sign up today, we had one client. Well, years ago, she used every it was a remodel on Lake Mintaka, and Sandy was her name. She would make framers breakfast burritos every morning. I'm like, Sandy, you gotta stop. They're never gonna go to any other house. Like, seriously, like this, you make a mean omelet. Lady, framing


    Rick Hendel  00:45

    might take a little longer. Oh, man, they're putting on weight.


    Mark D. Williams  00:48

    They're looking good today. On the Christmas podcast, we had Rick and Amy Handel on a repeat guest, and we really dove into just their success story, how they've really evolved even over the last couple years, and really the success of how builder 20s have really transformed their business. They're the reigning national builder of the year. So without further ado, here's Rick and Amy Handel. Welcome to curious builder Podcast. I'm mark williams host today we have a repeat client episode 20 fours, Amy and Rick handle just down the street. Hey guys,


    Amy Hendel  01:24

    hi Mark, how you doing? I'm great. Howdy,


    Mark D. Williams  01:29

    it's nice to see you outside of the grocery store down quasi right. Yeah, right. Thanks for accepting my invite, not hitting ignore. So yeah, for those that are interested in the origin story, as we kind of mentioned, you know, head back to Episode 24 you guys were gracious enough to come on in our inaugural year, and that was two and a half years ago already, which is kind of wild. Can't believe it that's gone fast. You have since moved from moizetta to Excelsior, so we're now neighbors, and we just bumped into each other at the International builder show just a couple months ago, where you won the prestigious National Builder of the Year Award, which is pretty cool.


    Amy Hendel  02:00

    Yeah, that's it was huge honor. We were up against a couple of our other builder, 20, come come Roberts. What is the word?


    Mark D. Williams  02:08

    Anyway? Comrades, comrades. Thank you going with camaraderie. But it was comrades, hey, we're good. I was


    Amy Hendel  02:15

    combining two words together. It's called the missionary. I'd like to do that quite often, but no, it was, it was an awesome award to receive. It took, I mean, it's your history, it's who you are, it's your clients are, are interviewed or questioned or references, you know, your peers, even trade partners, subcontractors, and then all of your awards, your quality, your social media. It, it's, it's a lot of work to submit, but it's, it's a great achievement to receive. We're very humbled. I'd


    Mark D. Williams  02:44

    love to hear. So maybe we'll start with the end, and then go back to the beginning. So you're sitting there, you know, you're a finalist, right? Correct, right? And there's what three finalists or five, or how many? Just three of us. So there's three final was that was any of the other of your builder 20s? The finalist? Oh, yeah. No way. Two others were no. All three of you guys were from the same group, yes, and we


    Rick Hendel  03:01

    all sat next to each other, oh, that's wild, wild,


    Amy Hendel  03:04

    I know, and that that's never happened before. So we were all, I suppose, when


    Mark D. Williams  03:08

    they're sending in the documents that would they would have no way of knowing that either, right? No, no.


    Amy Hendel  03:11

    And they're not even, they can't vote on that, or they don't even, they can't know that. They


    Mark D. Williams  03:15

    wouldn't even know that is wild. I didn't know that. Yeah,


    Amy Hendel  03:18

    yeah, no, it was so no matter who won, it was going to be fun. Yeah, right, right.


    Mark D. Williams  03:22

    Oh, man, that's okay. So you're sitting there that night, you guys are having a good time, like you're pretty you know, hey, we know the hardware is coming to group number, whatever, six, six. And you're thinking, what? At what point when they start describing, did you know it was you? Because sometimes did they do the preamble? And you're like, at some point, like, your hair kind of goes up on your arms. You're like, that's us. I know. Did you? Did that happen? Really? Have a long intro?


    Amy Hendel  03:47

    No, it was pretty quick. Sherwin Williams was the sponsor, and so they were just describing the three finalists, and then immediately they just said, the the winner. Oh, okay, and so, but we had people recording all around, which was so cool, because you got to see just our immediate response and how, you know, you just get up,


    Rick Hendel  04:05

    yeah, in our team's response, because we had a bunch of our team out there as well too. So yes, really cool. And all of our friends, we had more builder 20 guys fly out because they knew somebody was going to win it too. So it was quite the group.


    Amy Hendel  04:17

    And it was my birthday? No, it was your birthday, yes, so it was


    Mark D. Williams  04:22

    a great day. Wow, that's amazing. So you go up on stage, you know? I mean, they have a lot of awards for one thing, right? That


    Amy Hendel  04:29

    night, we were one of the first, I think five, thank goodness, because there were, what, 200 a year. There was an incredible amount of


    Rick Hendel  04:35

    awards. Oh, I'm glad we're in the beginning.


    Mark D. Williams  04:36

    Ian was cool because I saw you at the top of the escalator and, kind of the education Expo, and you were standing next to a gentleman. I forget his name. We'll talk about him here in a minute. And you just mentioned one of the questions I had for you, and why I wanted to bring you on again is to a catch up, but see what the last two years you've been up to. But really talk about what goes into the evolution of a company. Because you've won Builder of the Year of Minnesota twice now, and you you. What's I'd love to compare and contrast later in the interview, like, the difference between the two. And did you gain any knowledge? Because obviously you got 50 states, there's builders of the years awards in all these states. Like, what can people learn on a micro level that they can apply to the macro level across the country if they want to go for a national award, your process of like, why did you decide to apply to go to the national because sometimes it's probably daunting. You're like, oh, man, there's a lot of good builders. Why even bother? And so there's that kind of thing. But let's go to the top of the escalator. So you're the builder 20. He was one of the founding members of that particular builder 20,


    Rick Hendel  05:30

    yeah, of our particular group. And it's Paul magelby. He's been around forever. He was one of the guys that actually got this award for the custom home builder of the year, because there was just the Builder of the Year. And a lot of the Nationals would win it. So it was very difficult for the custom home builders to compete. And so he wanted to have it for just the custom builders. And the funny story about that is, he's was always a guy that would go to the builder show 1520, years ago, and he would, he or and his son would talk, and it would, it was always like, if I could just be a part of their group, and if we could just emulate what they do. I mean, I've made it. I'm done. I'm good.


    Amy Hendel  06:07

    You looked up to him way back then it was that


    Mark D. Williams  06:09

    before you were even in the group, yeah, before I was even. So how did you know him before he was in


    Rick Hendel  06:13

    the group? We would see him at the builder show. He would give talks and and then, if you do your research, I would follow him on his website and see who he worked with architects and that kind of thing. And so we just followed him, and very thoughtful. Just a great guy, not only a great company, but just a great guy, great family, yeah.


    Amy Hendel  06:30

    And he and his son has brought it from even where he was to a whole nother level. I mean, they are at the elite of the elite for custom homes and even dabbling in other businesses. Yeah.


    Rick Hendel  06:40

    And they outgrew the group, basically,


    Mark D. Williams  06:41

    right? So they left the group. How many years ago?


    Rick Hendel  06:44

    I think they left in 2018 okay, I'm not sure exactly what the date was,


    Mark D. Williams  06:48

    and how, how? When did you guys start your builder? 20 journey, 2020, yeah, right around COVID, yeah. Okay, so actually, I mean, not historically that long, six years, yes. What have you noticed in terms of, like, your a lot of builders I've had on Brad Levitt from AFD construction down in Phoenix, who I know you know of just from reputation, I don't think you know personally. But like a lot of builders around the country, attribute their growth and their success to the foundational principles that they learn in we talk a lot about collaboration of competition in general. That's what gave birth to the local, cures, collectives, the podcast, just the world we're in is one of so much sharing. But really the builder 20s go back, I think, to the 80s and 90s. Like, I've been around a long time, lot longer than most people think they have been right, right? What have you noticed since you started? Like, how has your business sort of changed your trajectory? And then, specifically, over the last two years,


    Rick Hendel  07:39

    it's probably been the best thing that we've been a part of, business wise, we've had a we had a great business coach that we worked with, I would say, Dennis.


    Amy Hendel  07:46

    He was awesome. He retired. But he, he started our, I guess, our growth in just having someone to bounce ideas off of, in the business sense and the financials. And then when the builder 20 group approached us to be in their group,


    Mark D. Williams  07:59

    so they approached you. Were you looking actively for a group or no? Well, that's cool.


    Rick Hendel  08:04

    We might have signed up, but we, we got a call from one of the guys who was retiring, and he started telling me about the group. And as soon as I heard Michael B and few the other guys, I'm like, you don't have to explain anything else. I'm in. And he's like, no, let me finish. I'm like, I'm in. Whatever you tell me doesn't matter at this point. I want in. So anyway, but yeah, we we've loved that. It's probably been our single best thing to help our company, financially, organizationally, you just, you really learn the business aspects of it. On top of it, I can call any one of those guys or people, and if they can't answer the phone, they're calling me back as soon as possible, and they will fly here. They'll do anything we can. We share everything. We share everything, all numbers, documents, everything.


    Amy Hendel  08:50

    Yes, no, and even, like, what's taken me maybe two or three years to create a process. They ask for it within minutes, I'm giving it to them. So we do that both ways. So when you know, hey, tell me about how your org structure is and how you do your profit sharing. Here's what I do, here's what. So you get 13 to 18 different companies sharing everything and anything, financial processes, you know, even people, employees, just anything you can think of, and a moment's notice, it's in your hands. So it's even personal


    Rick Hendel  09:22

    stuff. Like, well, how would you deal with this situation? We can talk to talk to him. I mean, I found


    Mark D. Williams  09:27

    that help. I've only been a part of our builder 20 now for about a year and a half, and and I'm a pretty social person. I've certainly asked you questions. I mean, kudos to you, Rick. I've mentioned this a number of times on the podcast. You probably know what I'm going to say. I'll tell you what. I'll tell you my version. You tell you my version. You told me where I'm wrong, because I've said it enough times at this point that you know, the story has taken on some Minnesota extra. But it was like you told me that you had a job, and in my mind, it was a financial, you know, broker from New York or something, and they wanted to meet every Saturday for at like one o'clock for like, two years. And you told me I was. Just starting to have children at this time, and your daughters were younger, I want to say like, maybe seven or nine in my story. And you basically said that, you know, you learn so much from that, because basically every weekend you were committed to this, and it's let my favorite quote last year I talked about all the time on the podcast is boundaries create freedom, and I now have won jobs because I tell people I'm not available at night. I'm not available on the weekends. And the reason why is I need to prioritize my family. We're going to be in this for two to three years. We need the team to be recharged so that we can show up to be and I give you credit all the time, sometimes by name, sometimes just as a friend. Is that roughly the story?


    Rick Hendel  10:36

    Yeah, that's exactly it. Yeah. I learned a hard lesson for that. Yeah. And there are times where you do have to be available, yeah, in certain respects, obviously. But no, if you don't have priorities, you're you'll learn a difficult lesson at some point. So we always tell our kids to you, it's about sacrifices too. You can, you can? You only have so much time, right? And you have to devote it to certain things. And if you don't have a priority on what's important to you, you're going to lose it and and when that goes away. I mean, we talked about kids before we got started here, when that time goes away, you're not getting it back. Same thing with these projects. So you can be devoted to it 24 hours a day. Will that help you? Maybe, maybe not. And only for a little bit. You can only sustain it for so long, so well, and


    Amy Hendel  11:21

    just like you said, You've got to prioritize what is most important. If your kids and your family is most important, then that's what you put at the top. And it doesn't, doesn't negate that clients aren't they are, and they should respect that too. They have families and they have kids, so it's so mutual.


    Mark D. Williams  11:35

    That's and I think that's, I think they end up, we had a the job that I keep referring to is that they hinted up this particular individual did not have children, and I told him to this, and I said, You know what, John, I said, I might not be the best fit for you. And I said, That's okay. And I had never this was the most expensive home I had ever built at the time, and I really wanted it, but it was really your story, Rick, that I said I this was really helpful. And I think one of the main reasons why I do the podcast is to share stories like that, my own, other people's stories, so that most of us you've mentioned about how your business has grown, and people can go back to Episode 24 and hear your origin stories. But like most of us, don't choose to be building because we're great business owners and we're great builders. Like you're usually good at one or the other. You gravitate towards building because you like it. You're good at it. All of a sudden, before you've got a business you're like, Oh, now I have to figure out how to be a business owner, right? And most people, you know, electrician, plumber, cabinet maker. And I think the business side is where you lose and make money, and you have financial independence, and you can support your family and and we can do job creation. I mean, the one thing we don't talk about enough as builders is the amount of people that we employ and that we empower. I was just touring a home down in Arizona, $26 million home, 26,000 square feet, 1000 bucks a foot, as you can easily do the math on that one, finally, easy one and, and someone had just mentioned I was looking through their Instagram feed, and people were trolling it, like, blah, blah blah this and blah blah blah that. And I was talking to the pm about it on site, and he goes, what they don't realize is we so we did this. It's like there is 45 people on this job right now. So we did. We did roughly, hey, if they roughly, on average, make about 50 grand a year times whatever it's like, this is $2 million or 3 million or $5 million of annual salary that goes to families, that goes to supporting their like this one person couldn't afford this beautiful home. And I don't really have an objective, but other than I'm a craftsman, I'm happy to do it right, but the impact it has on the community. And he said in his comment was, like, they go to lunches here, they support the businesses. They they do all this stuff. It's like, it blossoms into that community. It


    Amy Hendel  13:28

    does, no, it's so important. I mean, like, what a client can do for our community and for the families that we then hire. I mean, it is these are, they're feeding mouths, they're putting people through college. I mean, even some of our clients are so happy to have these crafted hands, these gifted people. They bring on food trucks, like, once a week and say, Hey, come out. Like, let's let's celebrate. Let me say thank you to you. And so when it when that mutual, again, respect is shared both ways. Oh, it's awesome, but you're right. It's not like this. Oh, these wealthy people are just building these big, huge homes. And can you believe it? It's no, what a blessing it is to a community, to us, to our our employees, our families. So no, it's, it's awesome. My dad came we built from our parents, and he would show up, show up at the job site. He's like, all I could see was the money ticker, like, tick, tick, tick, tick. Like, going, but he's like, but it was also like, feeding, like, lot or feeding families and and supporting he's like, it was, it was like, Yes, I know this is my money, but also it's a positive of, like, the more. And you always say, too, when we bill, bill your clients high for the month, that means a lot of work has been done, and so a client should want to see a high bill, because that means we're cost plus, but that means a lot of things are getting done, and your home is being built. I've


    Mark D. Williams  14:40

    never used that line. I'll try to use that this week. When I give it like, Hey, Mr. Homeowner, here's an extra bill. Be like, aren't you happy? Of all the people you've helped with this one, I haven't tried that tactic before. I'll give it


    Rick Hendel  14:49

    a word. I've had clients are sophisticated, right? So they know if their house is going to cost X, and you've only billed this much, they can do the math and say, we got a lot of catch up to do if we're not billing at a high rate. Eight. So most of them love it, yeah, and appreciate it.


    Amy Hendel  15:03

    Even in Financials, where metrics where we know, like, Okay, we have this many months supposedly left, and this is how much we have to bill, and we know right away, at that moment if we're behind or ahead of schedule.


    Mark D. Williams  15:13

    I know we've had mutual friend Chris Anderson on for month end. And like, over bill and under Bill is a big part for cost plus builders, and we're always in arrears. In general, you get a bill for those out there that do cost plus or any really, you're always you're doing more work than what you build for. And it all comes down to the down payment, right? We changed. That was one thing that I learned, not only from the builder 20, the contractor coalition, and for me, it was understanding that, oh, you know, just because a house is 26 million or 20 million or 5 million or 500,000 doesn't matter the percentage of what you take down. You know, it was argued that, hey, you should take 20% down, yeah. And for me personally, it's like, sometimes it becomes so much money that I don't actually want that much money. Sometimes, for me personally, I'll make a judgment call, like, if the house is above 4 million or 5 million, I might say, You know what? I only need 10% that's enough for right now, but we hold it as a retainer till the end, right? And that was that that one change changed everything. With our rip reports. It was so helpful, and I didn't know that without a builder 20, or without someone saying, like, hey, you know you're you are con because every there are many businesses that are making money and they're like, where is the money? Yeah, cash flow, right? Yeah, we don't have it. It's brutal, and even if you know it, sometimes it's still an issue. I


    Amy Hendel  16:21

    would say the number one thing that's changed our business is that we look at our numbers and our financials like many times through the month, and we meet monthly with our accountants and CFO and just really analyze the whip report over and unders where our projects are at, what's our pipeline, even our even like our project managers and senior project managers, are they key, performing an index and just seeing like where they're at, what they're doing, what they're providing, and are they ahead or below? Well,


    Rick Hendel  16:47

    when are we going to finish? Some jumps come in a little hotter than others. We can get quite a bit done at the end, depending on the weather, especially where we're at here. So we can measure all that and see that come in and say, oh boy, this guy's got two jobs now. They're going to finish here in May. He's going to be really busy. We probably can't give him another job to start until June. So it's even better from that standpoint, to not just financials, but it helps us actually schedule really well. So you know, and it's about efficiency, right? You have to be efficient. We have to have everybody on our team be the most efficient they possibly can be. And so when you measure those things, you can see it. You can feel it. We've had, we've had things where we've struggled for a few months, and we can see it right away. We can see that number come through. And you're not seeing the billing, you know, we're not making decisions. This is not, you know, going as well as it could. And we can step in and say, Okay, how do we get this back on the tracks and going and going well and going smooth?


    Mark D. Williams  17:39

    How do you, how do your employees react to the KPIs? You know, in terms of measurable reactions, like


    Amy Hendel  17:46

    our our PMS and senior, our Senior pm specifically, like it. They want to know, where do I fall like it, and how much, how much do you expect me to run with, and where maybe, do I have more capacity to take on more jobs? So they they appreciate when we just show them the numbers, and


    Rick Hendel  18:02

    it's meet every week with them, and we talk about it. Or, how are you feeling? You feeling good? Medium bad. What you know? Where are you at, right? So we meet every week. We talk about, how is this? How are the numbers feeling? How are we going? What's happening, right? So you have, like,


    Mark D. Williams  18:16

    a dashboard report you'll do you do one on ones? Or do you do it as a collective all the PMs at one time. We


    Rick Hendel  18:20

    do it as a collective, and they grade themselves like I'm keeping up. We


    Amy Hendel  18:24

    do the scorecard. Scorecard, yes, so yeah, it's actually been very helpful, extremely helpful. And they go through and they talk about their scorecard and and then, and we talk about it, and then it brings up other questions that you may not have even thought about. But yeah, 630 and it's just good


    Rick Hendel  18:40

    here for us. We have three groups right now, and everybody's dealing with something different. They really when you share things, you learn things from other people and what they're going through. And sometimes we hear about a trade that's getting behind on a job, right? And so we can say, Okay, well, great. That guy's supposed to be in our place next. Maybe we need to talk to him right away, right? We didn't hear anything so, but now we might be concerned about the schedule and when he can start. Yeah,


    Amy Hendel  19:02

    one other thing I wanted to mention is magelby, who we talked about, he was one of the 1520, years ago we met him in one of our educational seminars, and what he talked about then has stuck with us and has actually changed how we do business. And his whole thing was pre construction, and he he's like, you as a builder, you do these bids and estimates and how much time and money it takes your company to put that together. I mean, talking 5080, hours, just hundreds or hundreds, yes, and how we're, you know, if you're competitive, bidding was just expected. Like, you just do that. You just do that. For me, he's like, You need to charge for that, like that is, that is real time, that is real money. Those are your people. And so it was, we call it head trash. When you think, I can't charge for that, that's no way. But once you just actually say that, and you can do it and show your value really. I mean, immediately people buy in. Well,


    Rick Hendel  19:58

    we think, you know, one of the things is we are. Probably some of the most valuable information that's there. We're not in, we're not drawing the plans, you know, that takes 1000s of hours potentially, right? We're not doing that, but we're coming in and we're talking through things, and we're talking about budgets and schedules and city requirements and all these things that come into play. And that's really valuable in making decisions for the design, for the site with the city, and so we feel like that's some of the most valuable hours that are spent on the job. Are the hours up front, because we set the stage for what's going to happen.


    Mark D. Williams  20:36

    This episode is brought to you by Pella windows and doors. I've used Pella for 21 years as the exclusive window company on every one of my builds, when people ask me who I trust for windows and doors, it's Pella every time. Their craftsmanship, their innovation, the top tier service, make them a no brainer for any custom home builder or designer who demand the best, whether you're designing something bold or building something with timeless elegance, Pella has you covered. They're also the only window company that has a lifetime warranty on all of their windows. I've gotten to know all their people at Pella corporate, as well as locally. Here at Pella Northland, I'm proud to call them our partners and our friends. Visit pella.com to learn more and connect with your local reps today. Also for more information, you can listen to episode one, where I interview their founders, as well as episode 109 where we talk about the innovation at Pella. The point is, the further you get down design, the more expensive is to change, right? And it's sort of in the way we do the price test the information on the front, yes, it's costing you money, but like, if you were to put a value on it, it's worth, I don't even know the metric, right? Five times, 10 times more important than it is six months later, because six months later, you've already spent several million dollars. You can't undo that, right? You spend 20 grand to save 2 million. I'll take that investment all


    Amy Hendel  21:49

    day long well. And we've seen a couple times when we were not involved in the beginning, where the papers are thrown in the garbage because it's too expensive, and they're like, Oh, we've over budget. No one had these boundaries on what our budget was and what the design is, and they go hand in hand, and we can immediately. I mean, architect says, Rick, what do you think? How much does that cost? And it's on you to say we're getting over budget. We need to


    Mark D. Williams  22:12

    a lot of it's feeling though, because we're in one reason. In fact, I called you on it, and it was a beautiful home that we're designing. And all my alarm bells of 21 years of experience. You're like, my instincts are, this is far exceeding what the client had outlaid for me to do. And we had a mutual architect and friend. And just basically, I'm gonna bounce this off Amy, because Ricky, what doesn't return my phone calls and and Thanks, Amy, yeah. And so anyway, it was just really helpful. I mean, that's not only but listening to your instincts, I guess, is where I'm trying to come with this at, because sometimes, right in that split moment, it's not like I can say, it's not like I can say, like, hey, that's 50,000 over, My instincts tell me we're over. Let's hit a timeout. Let's go back to because it's easy and designed for that design to swell, right? Because we've all been there as a builder. But even when you know this, we sometimes still face the same issue where clients often don't remember what they say. And they certainly don't hold themselves necessarily accountable when it comes to the bottom line. They're like, Amy and Rick, it was your responsibility to keep us on target, and you didn't. And you're like, I have a document. It doesn't at that point, it doesn't matter, though, I've got 20 emails saying you're over budget. You're over budget. Hey, remember this last thing? We added the sport cart, we had the helicopter pad, whatever. And I was using that analogy, because no one has ever had a helicopter pad. I'm waiting for someone finally to add a helicopter pad. And does that mean you've made it? That means I made if I do a Mark Williams helicopter pad? No, I always thought, because it seems so ridiculous that like the corner be like, hey, you know, because it's easy to get carried away in design. Oh, this is amazing. Let's do it. And so it's but you're kind of in design land. You're just kind of like, right spinning, having fun. And no matter what client says they have endless budget, which I've yet to see a single client ever say that, it still becomes a problem. Yeah, how do you how do you guys manage that? I mean, you know, it's a similar issue that anybody has. I don't care if you're doing a $200,000 house or a $20 million house, it's the same


    Amy Hendel  23:55

    issue. No. And everyone has a budget. We always say, even if you say you don't have a budget, you have a budget. Everyone has a threshold. And what we do, even really quick, is we have in our senior leadership meeting, we throw the plan out there and just give it a test, like just a smell test, of what do you feel this home is, and maybe we'll give it to them the night before, or maybe, like, a few days, but they look at that, and all three of them come in within, I would say, one to 3% you're talking about your senior PM, and that's just, that's just the gut. And so then from there, we'll go on and maybe take the top five subs that would implement or be used on this job, and then test that. But I mean, it's, it's really, it's a huge part of building, and you need somebody to keep track of the dollars from the day you say, I want to build, because it can easily go out of hand. And then again, like we just talked about you, we want to build this. When you come to us, we don't want to sit through design meetings. We want to build this. Yeah,


    Rick Hendel  24:48

    that's really, that's what I was gonna say. We're not here to sugar coat it. We want to make sure you build this house. So for me to sit through 10 meetings and not have any idea where the cost is going, that's not going to help anybody. Our goal is to get you to build this house. Enough and to be upfront and honest as much as we can and know about where we think this is going, right, and we can help guide that process too. So if it does go over, it doesn't mean that you do have to start over. Sometimes you can work through that right? There's plenty of options and opportunities to do that.


    Mark D. Williams  25:14

    I think the biggest thing is to navigate the emotional temperament of in one of the questions I was going to ask you, which I was gonna ask you, which I guess I'll ask now, is, some of your projects have lasted 234, your long time. Like, I guess I'll come back to this a little bit. But like, how do you keep the team? It's just a long time to stay excited about a particular project. It just takes that long to build a home that big, that sophisticated. And I get I'd be curious to know. Like, how, how does the team stay engaged? Sometimes the nice part about what's normal is 10 months to 18 months like that seems fast. It seems nice, like I can see it progressing. But when you get into multiple years, it's just clients go, they have their job, their kids, their marital stuff. I mean, it's just a lot of time, yeah,


    Amy Hendel  25:55

    you got to be up. You got to be smart people smart. You got to read your client, you have to read your team, you have to be engaging, encouraging. And there's, there's phases to these projects. So we're kind of, you know, we know what phase we're in, and we know, you know, we're heavy in selections right now. Now it's, we've made all the selections. Now it's implementation of, you know, mechanical so it's, it's these phases. But as much as our people need to be encouraged, so does the client, and it's keeping their confidence and trust in us the entire time, keeping them like this should be fun. We always say this should be a fun and it is. It is a fun experience to go through. You're building your own home fit to you, personalized and every which way you can think of imagine. But our team is a big part of that, and you need them to be just as excited about their home as the client is, and so keeping that connection, keeping


    Rick Hendel  26:44

    perspective. So one of the nice things in what we do is is we start with nothing, and then as you go, the process can be a long time, but as you go, you get to see more and more fun things. So one thing I do that's a little thing that I actually like, I thoroughly believe it to my heart, there's I don't I don't struggle to do it as I walk around with our team and our clients sometimes, and I'm like, Hey, check this out. Isn't this cool? I mean, we're just getting this put in now, and they're just starting this process. These look at these guys. These guys are absolute artists. Isn't this awesome? And it kind of revives everybody and gets them pumped up on it. It's really helpful for morale. Really helpful for morale. It helps the homeowners to see our passion and why we do what we do, and it's just really, I think it's just a good for the entire team to see that that we're doing this for a reason. So we are very fortunate in what we do, and that we get to see a lot of progress, and we get to see things happen every day, hopefully. But that is really rewarding, too, and you just remind them of that, and really to be able to do the projects that we do in the places that we do for the people that we get to do it for. It's a privilege, and we can't lose sight of that.


    Mark D. Williams  27:49

    Yeah, no. I mean, it's rare air, for sure. And I think as as you and you create these relationships, I guess maybe I'm even thinking about it out loud. I'm answering my own question it's like, because I'm now thinking of my clients, and we had one in particular that she got. She brought us a food truck when we were done, and when we were done, she wrote me a note. She goes, I'm sort of sad that we're done because we I miss seeing you every day, or I miss seeing you at our bi weekly meetings or whatever we met, and we're doing a charity event at her home for the joy collaborative here in May, to help, you know, help children. And she was very gracious, very private person. But she's like, you can use my home, yeah, which is just great. I mean, that's pretty cool. It's a compliment to you too. I mean, so and your whole team, yeah, she was so nice to the team, right? We had one client. Well, years ago, she used every it was a remodel on Lake Minnetonka, and Sandy was her name. She would make the framers breakfast burritos every morning. I'm like, Sandy, you gotta stop. They're never gonna go to any other house. Like, seriously, like this, you make a mean omelet, lady,


    Rick Hendel  28:41

    framing might take a little longer. Oh, man, they're putting on weight. They're looking good.


    Mark D. Williams  28:47

    But I think it's, I think that's the answer, is like, when there is buying, when they see the people, you do get a lot of compliments. We did years ago. I forget what they call it, where you you respond with a word. And then it gets bigger. There's a word thing for that, like marketing or design. And the word that I always, I ask people, like, rank these words, like, nobody says drywall, it's not concrete, but it's always like, trimming cabinetry, you know, design, it's the things that they see, you know, those cabinets go and lighting like, ooh, and they react to it. And everyone has kind of like, their thing that they're like, this really excites me. Yes,


    Amy Hendel  29:19

    yeah, no. And it's personal, and you have to know what your client is really focused on. Could be tile, it could be lightning, it could be everything. It could be that I want nothing to do with the project, and you just give me I trust you, and at the end of the project I want, I expect a really nice home. So I mean, but you just have to know your clients what they're wanting, and again, just to understand that emotional intelligence with these projects. I mean, that's they're hiring us to get the best out of our trades people. And so that's it. That's what we're doing. You always say that, Rick, you're like, you're hiring me to get the best out of people,


    Rick Hendel  29:49

    the most out of them. So yeah, and we just mentioned this to our team. We just had a a yearly meeting, strategic meeting, and we talked about one of the things is that a lot of people, a lot of our team, they. Do so many things I'll do maybe 70 or 80% of the things that they do, nobody will ever really see it. And it's taking pride in a good way and doing and being very professional and doing a great job at those things that make such a difference, and that fuels the desire to keep going through this challenging because this business is very challenging, right? We're working with all kinds of people. It's, we're building prototypes every day, right? And so it's just constantly a challenge. And part of the rewarding, part of that is, is when you do a great job, you see the fruits of that. So we talk about this build of the year. It's not about the awards. It's really not about the words. We love the awards. I think they're great for, you know, recognizing what's been done, but it's really a testament to all the work, not just with us and our team, but our traits that we've gone through over all these years. And they've done the things that nobody gets to see, and they've done them really well, and they've cared and taken the extra level. And we talk about this too, too. It's about people. Our biggest job we've ever gotten is from a relationship with a trade. We got to know each other personally. We trust each other implicitly. It's just a different level. And that's when we work together. We get the most out of each other. He'll push me, I push him right, and we get the best product that way, and we provide the best value that way. And that's that's really different. So the words are great. We love them. We think they're wonderful. But it's I told my team too. I still believe we're the best, even if we got the award we didn't, and that's what's key. And I want them to believe the same thing as well, too. We


    Amy Hendel  31:33

    also, too, at the end of projects, which is kind of a builder 20 idea, but we will invite all the subcontractors back to the house and do a party, and depending on if the client, you know how what level, but they love it. And then we had the framers say to us, I've never been back to a finished home. I've never seen a home complete and walk through it. I'm like, oh man. I'm like, we got to do this more often so, but we


    Mark D. Williams  31:56

    used to do that a lot, and then a client's kind of just got tired at the end and they didn't want to do it so. And then it so, and then it was, like, we stopped doing it. And, you know, then, like, this couple that, you know, did the food truck, she wanted to do it. And, like, that's great. And so, yeah, choose the clients. Choose the clients. I one thing that you're just coming to mind, and I think you come up with all these ideas, even in a podcast like this, or things that you want to do, or thoughtfulness. Can you prescribe thoughtfulness? Or is thoughtfulness just like a frame, a mindset, like you getting excited Rick, as you walk through the Job says, Hey, Amy, come over here. Look at this. That's just genuine. You can't, you can't fake that. That's just real. That's what makes you, and that's why your clients chose you. And so I always tell people, like, be authentic, be you, whatever your thing is. Like, do that, because that's why they chose you. Anyway. The second part is, and I haven't I'm gonna do it on our mesa. Who's project here coming up, or for spec home in Cottage wood. I was gonna tell you a little bit about it, but after we're done here, but I'm gonna have everyone in the house before we cover it up sign. We're gonna do a signing party, and I'm gonna everyone go through with magic markers and sign all the two by fours. Sign anything they want. It could be quotes. I've seen people do Bible verses or, I think there's a quote in Joshua that's as for me and my family will walk with the Lord, you know, things like that, you see that. But like I wanted, I want each one of my framers to sign their own name and date it someday, 100 years from now, or 50 years from now, or whenever, someone will open up this wall and see that somebody, I do it a because I like it. But the main things like, it's the it's the ownership, it's that they feel like this is their home. And I've mentioned this guy. His name is Johnny. He doesn't work with my framing crew anymore. He's been 10 years. He's up north, framing somewhere else, but he would take a picture every day of the home. He was so proud of the progress that he made on the home, and that always meant a lot to me. And I think now as I've got little kids, where, at the time, I didn't have children when Johnny was around, and I think of I drive by, I just got a call from my dad built a lot of homes in Victoria, around deer run, and I got a call there to go do a Remus. Was like, driving down all the homes that I grew up in as a kid. I'm like, Dude, my dad built a lot of these homes here. And it's really cool to, like, go back and like someone. The other day, I was reading the Sunday paper. My daughter was in my lap. She was sick, and there was a gentleman walking we're down in Minneapolis, and he walks outside, and also see this girl, like, walk up into our yard, like, hold our railing. She's like, from maybe 20 feet away, like, close. And like, I'm like, this is pretty brazen. And the ladies, and she's like, waving, and I see the dad out there, and he walks up to the window, like, from me to you, like, four feet away, and he goes this. And he's like, yelling, to make sure it comes through the glass. And he's like, this was my mom's home that she was born in. And I said, Do you want to come in and bring your daughter to show her? He's like, no good. I just wanted a picture. But it was just a home is so deeply in rooted into our lives. It's the place. It just means so much, memories,


    Amy Hendel  34:37

    so many memories. I mean, that's we talk about that all the time, like, this is your it's a lifetime of memories that are gonna be created in this space that we're creating for you. And it's like we want it to be when you come home every night. We want you to feel that same sense and for parties and entertaining and Christmas and I mean, it's that's really what fills the home. I mean, it's not all the beautiful design. That helps make it feel feel good, but it's the people, the people that you're bringing in, and what that they feel like this is someplace I want to be. One


    Mark D. Williams  35:07

    of my favorite stories was a client. Was my first million dollar home that I ever built back in 2015 and anyway, we were framing up the the great room, and I won't say her name, because people know who it is, but she she's she started crying, and I said, What's the matter? And she's like, I am afraid that people won't be won't want to come to my home because it's too nice. She really struggled with where they were to where they were. And I said, so hard not to say her name. I said, you. I said, you make the home. This is just a house without you. It's a home, and you could make anybody feel welcome in anything. I don't care if it's a tent, a trailer, a horse trailer, a barn, because look at your generosity of spirit. That's what makes someone feel welcoming. And this has it everywhere in the home, right? And that's that I that story has resonated with me for so long because of the emotion in the heart that she felt and cared about the people that came to her home. And to your point, Rick, earlier, we are privileged that we get to work on these kinds of homes with these kinds of people, and that has nothing to do with the home. That's all about the person, right? And I love that that can come out. Yeah,


    Amy Hendel  36:16

    no, even time when, when clients are interviewing us, we're interviewing them. I'm like, we want this to be. I don't say that in a negative way. It's a positive like, we want to know who you are, like and what makes you tick, and what are your hobbies. What mean? We always say, the more we get to know you, the better your home is, right? Because we can make decisions, yes, and elevate your style and all about who, more about who you are. We can make good, educated decisions on your behalf, and there's 1000s of them that we make for you during this build process. Yeah, it's


    Mark D. Williams  36:44

    pretty cool. What is your what is your process when you get to know people at first or even the continuation? Do you meet up for meals on this multi year projects? I was just talking to a friend of mine at lunch. Well, you know, I'm Steve Yock and and so he's just a hilarious guy. So we were doing book recommendations, and we decided every time we have lunch, we're gonna give each other a book, because he loves books. I love books and so but my favorite book last year was unreasonable hospitality. I've talked a lot about it on the podcast, and it's about, you know, the the journey of a five star restaurant in New York, and I feel like home building for how intimate and how emotional the process is. As an industry, in my opinion, we do a very poor job of a broad spectrum of hospitality, I feel like, at the luxury level, we probably do a better job, but we could do a lot. There's so much room for improvement. Like, on a scale from one to 10, we're at like nine, we're on like, elevator floor nine. There's so much room to grow. And I talked to successful business owners like yourself in the home space, and like a lot of them have, you know, like one builders, like, I have dinner with them once every six months, because a lot of them are from out of town, and so they fly in, we have dinner, we don't talk about the house at all. It's just to connect as people, right? Are there things that you have sort of developed organically over the years, that you kind of have that human touch point, and how do your clients react to it? Well,


    Amy Hendel  37:55

    and we call it touch points. I mean client touch points. We even have a marketing calendar where it's like, okay, every month, think of a way that you can connect with the client, whether it's walking the job site together, bringing coffee one morning just to say hello or at the job site, or whether it's in the office, whether it's sending them flowers, whether it's connecting for dinner. There's different ways, and we're not always good at doing it every single month, but it's in the front of our mind of what or should we be doing to make this more personal, because you can start a job and a year can go by so fast where you're like, like, what have I do? I really know this person. You know you. I mean, you do to a sense, but do I know them really personally? Where we're not talking about home things, we're talking I want to know you. I want to know about your kids. I know about your family. Yeah,


    Rick Hendel  38:38

    I ask a lot of questions, even in the pre construction. And one part that's that's fun for us in doing that, which makes it sometimes even it we even have uncomfortable conversations in a good way, where it's like, well, what do you do when you get up in the morning, when you brush your teeth and where do you where do you go after that? Because I think if we're going to change your closet relationship to your bathroom, this is how it should be. So you find out how people live, what they do, what they're what they're more interested in, how they eat. I mean, it's very, very personal, and that that relationship is fostered from pre construction all the way through construction. Because there are even times too where we do the site walk throughs and they're like, you know, I didn't really think this would be like this. And so we all have to make a change. We have to bring the designer in, the architect in. We have to talk to him and say, Well, tell us. Tell us why, and sometimes it's how they describe what they're what they're saying, that's more important than what they actually just said. Because you're like, Oh, I get it now i This is more important to them. This is really what's going on here. And so from that standpoint, we do develop a deeper relationship. We don't necessarily go out to eat with them. Sometimes we do, sometimes we don't or anything like that, but it's more of that where we develop that, and then we try to get inside their brain and make it a great place for them. So I mean, our goal is to make it better for them than they even expected, right? And to provide more than they were expecting. And that's the most exciting thing when we get done in their you know, their. Just off the charts excited, and it's unexpected. Like, I knew this was going to be great, but this is even better than I thought well,


    Amy Hendel  40:06

    and even in that first interview, I'm just thinking out loud here, but in that first interview, when they're coming to us to interview us, to say, Okay, can you be the builder? Like, really, they're making a decision to invite us into one of their most personal circles, like for the next year, year and a half, two years, they're taking a chance and trusting us to again make decisions on their behalf, but to know them probably better than their friends, and to some degree, so it's it really is an honor for us to be in that circle, and then when problems arise in their bathroom or what do we do here? And like, we know them so well that we can think through, that we can talk about it, we can solve it. So it's even


    Rick Hendel  40:48

    when we're done, like even walking through when we're done in their all their bathroom, we go into their bathrooms and their closets, and they're right. It's a they trust. There's an a ton of trust that's given to us. We don't take that very lightly at all, and to be a steward of that, and to try to figure out what, how do we get to solve whatever issue it is that we have to solve or work through? The more you know them, the better you can help


    Mark D. Williams  41:12

    them. I mean, I think you're right. I think the intention of like, the more you can understand like, not only the expectations, because a lot of times they don't know the questions to ask or with the client, where I feel like I've never had one quite like this, they give them super big credit to understand that's gonna take a lot. A lot of people don't understand the amount of involvement it's gonna take. A lot of them are really excited for because they just want to play. You know, sometimes we've all had clients are like, they want to live a life as a designer. Yes, news alert, it's not as glamorous as you would think. Yeah, but they Yeah, exactly. But everyone, we all have had clients that want to do that, and that's fine. We're happy to accommodate that. And so it's part of who we've matched them with and that whole experience. But I have one client that basically was like, I want to build, but I realize how much time it's going to take, and I am just concerned that I'll lose excitement for it, but I would I took it that she was so honest about her feeling, it allowed me to assemble the team to make sure that was right. And I do like to as we all interview different architects and different designs. No one builder, one architect, one designer, is right for every one person, and that combination of that puzzle is up to us, if they especially come to us to make it to the best to the Dream Team. And for this particular client, I said, Let's have the designer. Usually we'll have the designer come on board during architecture after that first price test, or maybe right before. But honestly, I if they're willing to pay for it, for their hours, like I like I'm actually there from day one, if I can. And sometimes you you have to, sometimes Architects like that, it's all about making sure we're in alignment for what the client wants, and explain the reason. So the reason I and everyone was on board for this one, but it was her comment was, I don't want to repeat myself, and that might came off negatively, but it wasn't she said it with a lot of generosity and care, and I was very sensitive that I didn't want to wear her out. And I'm like, you know, if this is a simple thing that I can do to have her, to have the whole team from day one so she never feels like she has to repeat herself, because the whole team is together, right? Because it stuff does get lost. I mean, even between husband and wife, between it just and everyone hears things differently. The power of a team meeting is everyone hears something a little bit different. You know, Rick, you and I are, you know, using our man brain thinking this. How do we solve this problem? And, you know, Amy, you know, stereotypically, is like, this is how she felt. This is what I need to do. And I am the worst at empathy, like I am, just maybe it's being a being a builder B, being a man. It's like, How can I solve the job, to solve the problem, to solve the problem, not about the problem.


    Amy Hendel  43:37

    I know. Did you see her face? Did you see her face? No, but you're right, like that's when a client comes to us in the beginning and asks us for our expertise. We're providing the expertise for the designer, possibly the architect, if they don't have that set yet. And so the landscape architect and we are we're learning more about them, what their needs and desires are, and we're crafting this team that will make their project, their specific project, the best it can be. So it's and we mean, we see this every day, so we know the top of the top. We know budgets too. That's very important. Who fits in this budget and and then who can provide the best our greatest and best use, who can provide the most value for this client at their price point.


    Mark D. Williams  44:22

    Ian music. This episode is brought to you by adaptive. If you're still chasing checks and juggling spreadsheets, it's time to upgrade. Adaptive is revolutionizing how builders get paid with AI powered bill pay, automated draws, one click payments and built in lien waivers, Faster Payments, fewer headaches and total visibility. Adaptive takes care of the back end chaos, so you can focus on what you do best, building. We've used adaptive for two and a half years, and trust them to keep our projects moving and payments flowing. Learn more at Adaptive dot build and simplify the Pay Process today. For more information, you can also listen to episode 10 and episode 15. You. Let me ask you this question, because we've been painting a pretty rosy picture about being a builder. Let's take a let's take a step and ensure I confessed waters here with this one is, I've had many clients before saying brick. That's great. I expect you to hold subcontractors to a higher level. And usually the intention with how I just said that is one of like, and they like to use this word, like, I expect you to go beat them up on our behalf, like you need to have our best interest. And I know what how I respond, but I'm sure you've been asked that question before. How do you I know it's very case dependent, but at face value, how do you deal with that client that expects you to go hammer on your valuable trade partner?


    Rick Hendel  45:38

    Yeah, fortunately, we haven't had it that often lately. But I just tell them, Listen, I'm not going to treat them any different than how I would want to be treated. So if I'm going to, if I'm going to go to a certain level, that's as far as I'm going to push them, and I'm I can go to a pretty, pretty deep level in what I would do, in what I and I tell them, Listen, I'm telling you in pushing you, because that's who we are. We want to be the best at what we do. And it's not always about the highest level of product. It's the process as well, too. But if we go and we talk to these owners and tell them, This is how we think, this is why we think, but we think I need them to be I need them to do a great job. Again, you're hiring me to get the most out of them. That includes being productive, time their schedule, there's cost there, there's the finished product. So all those things have to be done well in order to get the most out of them. And just hammering away on price isn't going to get you there. It doesn't work. It doesn't work in any industry. And so it's the again, I'll say it a million times. It goes back to the relationships with the people, so you can hammer away. And then we've done it before, back a while ago, we hammer away, and then they're like, Fine, I'm gonna, instead of having five guys here, you're gonna get three. Well, now it's gonna take longer.


    Amy Hendel  46:53

    It doesn't work. It doesn't really doesn't work.


    Mark D. Williams  46:55

    I mean, I agree. The main thing I'm trying to get after this question is, how do you navigate the client? Can


    Amy Hendel  47:00

    I yeah, really quick. This is something that we've just learned recently, but we you have to be able to express and share with clients what value is, and when you can explain what value is, they understand. And so it doesn't mean it's expensive. Expensive actually means there's no value there. It's just but it's costly, but costly means there's value. And so when you can explain that, hey, your home is all enamel, like we need to have the best subcontractor here that can you will have a really close to perfect finish on


    Mark D. Williams  47:32

    this. Thank you for not saying, No, I saw you catch yourself. That's amazing. We're not, it's not a car finish here,


    Amy Hendel  47:37

    so, but we like, there's just there's that's the way you just help them understand value. And there's we tell clients all the time, okay, you can do that, but you're not going to get your value back. That is completely because you want it, and it's a one off. And there's other times where it's like, you need to do this. This is really important to your home, to the esthetic, to the design. And then there's other times where the client is just like, I want this, but it costs this much, really. And so then that's where you explain what goes into the craft of making these artisans who are hand making some of these beautiful things for the home. So it's education.


    Rick Hendel  48:11

    Yeah, I agree. You have to educate them on it. And sometimes it's sometimes what we do is so unique and different that I don't know what. I don't know what goes into it. So I make them explain to me, if there's ever something that comes up for us, that you get the price back, and you're like, Whoa, that's a lot. I say explain to me, like, tell me what goes into this, so that I can help educate our owners on what's going into this and why this is the this is where it is for costs. And usually they always relate. So we don't really have a lot of instances where they don't. And once that gets explained, it makes sense, and then they can make a good judgment too, on based on, this is what the product is, this is what it's going to take to do it, and this is the cost. And from that standpoint, there isn't a lot of arguments after that, usually, or discussions. It's like, yeah, either I want it or I don't.


    Mark D. Williams  48:58

    So yeah, I mean, it's helpful. I think that, going back to your pre construction agreement, I think the thing that does probably better than anything else is help identify your ideal client, because if people are willing to invest money on the front end, they are valuing your expertise. And again, that's an edge. That's a point of view for us to educate. And I think we've all lost projects. We've all chased, I think usually, hopefully, earlier in our career. At least it was for me, it's like, you chase every ball down the street every sale. It's just like, and you did, and you look back, you're like, Oh, my word. Did I do a lot of work for free? If I was paying myself by the hour, I'd be like, in the 50 cents an hour, you just did so much work for free. And it's only as you get older and you realize your own self worth, and you're like, wait a minute. Not only do I do you charge more and you make more, but like, you get a better brand of client who values you for it helps weed out the ones that and it's okay. I think as soon as you realize that you're not for everyone, right? Yeah, that's really, I think, when you own your own story, and again, it's we're not competing to a rosy picture. We've all had difficult situations and that we have to overcome. And I think that's why I asked the question, is because I like the idea that you go back to edge. And I like the idea that I'm going to treat them how I want to be treated. And I told a client recently, they came at me really hard and and I just, I just said to them, I said, I think I even said this, because I usually say what I think. And I just said, most men don't do really well with criticism. I know, because my wife tells me all the time, so I suspect that you also are not going to handle this really well, but let me just reframe it this way, if you were to ask for my help on something that happens in the future, I will be much more likely to help you, because I want a great relationship, I want a good reputation, I want this to be a successful project. But if you come at me and you're just a hammer and I look like a nail to you. That's I mean, I understand. I'll do the best I can too, but it just, it's gonna go a lot better if you just say, Mark, I need your help. Because, guess what, when we asked when that that four letter word is pretty magical. I need your help, right? Oh, man, and it goes both ways. I think there's times that we can come to our clients and say, you know, I help. I and it's not easy. I made a mistake, right, right? I could have communicated this better. I understand, like, Hey, by the letter the law, I did the right thing. But you know what? There's a verse I often use, and it's a soft answer. Turn it away, wrath. I think about that a lot of times. Like, I'm gonna go into this meeting, I know it's gonna be contentious, maybe I just say I'm sorry. I don't know if it's gonna change anything else here, right? But I can say, I'm sorry


    Amy Hendel  51:20

    that it will, yeah, no, it's, it is? It's, none of us are perfect, no, and especially in construction. I mean, so many things can go wrong day in and day out. And it's, how do you? How do you react to that? And again, it's humility. You have to sometimes. And then we always say, perceptions reality. We have one of our senior PMS who, that's his line, like, what our clients perceive is their reality. You can't change it. You can. You can help them be educated and see but sometimes the answer is, yeah, I apologize. I'm sorry that this is happening, and that does just brings the whole level, the heightened level, down to we can at least communicate and talk through this and make each other better. But it's yeah, it's definitely a hard thing to do sometimes.


    Mark D. Williams  52:01

    I think I know Rick, you had mentioned before you were studying for pre med if you were to go, like, right now I'm just thinking about this question off because I was, I guess, where I framing this question is, like, if you could do an alternate career or different thing, what would your skill set do you think lend yourself to? And where I'm going with this is, like, I think we have to be really good to what you said, Amy, at reading body language and interpreting people's feelings, and you have to read people really well. You can't be in this business for a long time and not a relate to women, I think because you're homeowners. I mean, we in a fairly male dominated industry, and we'd all love more women to be in construction, and the ones that are are killing it. Thank you, Amy, you're awesome. But like our homeowners, stereotypically, at least for me, most of my women clients are the ones making the decisions in the project. And so if you can't relate and if you can't read body language, and if you can't figure out relationship management like you're in for a short career. Oh yeah. So with that being said, what other career Do you think our skill sets or your skill sets would be very well suited you ever thought about that? Well,


    Amy Hendel  53:01

    obviously consulting. I mean, not consulting. Oh, Mimi was a consultant. I was a consultant. Counselor. Counselor, yes, but My words are not here today. But yeah, being a counselor would be. I mean, just like, understanding, yeah, like, what do we what are you really thinking? And I can read your face right now and then, talking through it. But I wonder


    Rick Hendel  53:19

    that too. I often wonder that I never really come to an answer. I do. Look, my brother is an orthopedic surgeon, and it's interesting though, like the better he is with people, the better I feel like he probably does. And so it's not only with patients. Obviously, that's huge. If your doctor is enthusiastic, we've all been at the doctor, and you have somebody that's not very interesting, let's just call it, and somebody that's enthusiastic and saying, I think we can try this. We can do this, you should be getting better, more positive. I feel like that's just better for you, right? So not that I would be a doctor, but I think it's in what we do, and that's probably why it's tough to imagine myself somewhere else, because I love what I do, I really do, and I get to do something new every single day, and that's pretty rare. So


    Mark D. Williams  54:03

    let me ask that. I'm saying, let me ask you an inverted question. Then it comes to me, what professions do you think would make good builders? I mean, is it flipped as a counselors,


    Amy Hendel  54:12

    well, or actually, anyone in finance, if you know your numbers you're gonna do


    Mark D. Williams  54:16

    really? I agree with that. So I'd read an article recently that, like an MIT or not, or people coming out of Harvard, rather than, you know, do the 100 hours a week and slave away at Wall Street like they were buying, like, HVAC and plumbing businesses and like, Yeah, I'm just gonna do that. I think I


    Amy Hendel  54:30

    read the same article, mom, the mom and pop shops are getting bought up by hedge funds, yes, and millions of dollars for their company, and they're sailing the selling off into the sunset. Yes,


    Rick Hendel  54:38

    yeah, I think you have to be maybe this is true in any business, but there's a certain level of obviously, hard work you have to be dedicated to whatever you're doing. And if you understand finances, you work hard and you're creative. I feel like you can find your way through things. A lot of what we do is solving issues and working through things and being creative and not. Not necessarily taking no all the time is your answer, or we can't do that, but tell me why I can't do that. I need to learn. I've never heard that before and and it's being able to constantly challenge yourself to overcome the next issue or problem or whatever it may be. If you can do that, you could do well as a builder, I think. And obviously you have to relate to people. Yeah,


    Mark D. Williams  55:22

    you really have to. I think that creative side is well said. I've never thought about it quite that way, but think about where you were in the beginning of your career to where you're at now, in the homes that you build, and you guys feel like observing from afar, like you've accelerated a lot faster than most people to the level that you're at now. But where I'm really going at is the creativity side homes. Even if you were to build the same home today, let's say it doesn't matter. Let's just pick 5 million you build a $5 million forget inflation and tariffs. The $5 million house, the technology is different to what we put in the house is different. And like, yes, you have a timelessness side of it, and design is can be timeless. But like the technology of like thermal dynamics and like, triple pane windows and external insulation. Like, I think that's why I don't think I've ever been I've been doing this for 21 years. I've never been bored once, right? And it's gonna change five years from now. And so I think the creative side of what you were piggybacking on there Rick is, like, it's creative because it's an outlet. Like, I don't consider myself a creative in the sense of, like, I can't draw. I'm really good at stick figures. That's about it. Charades would be good at but, I mean, I can't draw you. You can draw Rick or so I've been told never to actually say this before. Anyway, where I'm going with this, I think you're right. The creative outlet is very powerful, yeah,


    Amy Hendel  56:30

    no. And it's, it's being curious. You have to always be curious. You have to, I mean, and I look back to when, where we started from, from design, you were like, that, that room is, is well done. Why is it well done? Like, let me look at the proportions, let me look at the the trim, the molding, the detail the ceiling, like, what makes okay? And then just keep studying and studying. Then it goes to mechanicals and systems and solar gain and all these windows and and then it's technical. And so you have to be curious about everything and never stop. You can never stop learning. The moment you stop, somebody's coming right behind you, and it's gonna figure it out. So it's, it's just this constant learning. We had an


    Rick Hendel  57:07

    interesting question at the be able to show after, I think, after we won the award anyway, where they're like, hey, you know, so what do you like? What do you do to what'd you do to get that? And I was like, it was the relentless pursuit of always trying to be better at everything. When you say everything, I literally mean everything. It includes marketing. It includes financials. It includes building materials. It includes science. Building Science, it includes dealing with people. I mean, it includes writing. There is nothing that you can't want to get better at and always get better at so some people get tired of that you have to be built maybe a little bit differently, where you're not and what I don't want from, especially from our employees, right? We don't want them to ever think it's not good enough, but it is the sense that we can always get better. Number one, we're humble enough to know that we don't know everything. We are going to make mistakes. We're human, and we can always be better. And that that pursuit is really what makes you different, and being able to go after that. So if somebody wants to be a builder, you really have to, you kind of gotta go after everything. And I would, I would just emulate my favorite architects, my favorite builders, my favorite designers, and I would say, let's put it all together, and that's how our website should look. And take this piece from that person and that piece from this person and and by the way, if we want to look like we're going to build million dollar homes, our website better look like we're building million dollar homes, right? So in, in really going after the people that we we look after them all. So going back to, you know, megabytes, and what does that guy do? I want to do everything that he does. Who does he work with? How does he work with? How does this relationship it's interesting. I went on a hunting trip out there, and i i My guide was a plumber for him, and I got to spend two or three days, three days with them, talking about it. And it was fascinating. He he reaffirmed all the things that I knew, and he's like, Oh, they're the best. I love working for him, and they're the most honest guys. And this that, and it just reaffirmed everything that I didn't get to hear in front of everybody else, but as a guy that did plumbing for him for 25 or, I can't remember 25 or 35 years, his dad worked for him, and now he worked for him. And so anyway, it's just interesting that it, it kind of proves the point. It's who you are, it's who you are, right?


    Mark D. Williams  59:16

    Well, I think at inglebreck said it culture eats strategy for breakfast. Yeah, yes. And what you're speaking to is the culture, the ethos, the personality. I think that's probably why so many home building companies are named after people handle homes, right? You know, I wish I've mentioned this before, like, I wish mine wasn't Mark dewy, yeah, so long of my word. She had a short last name. Come on, guys. But think from a branding standpoint, you are your company. I think that's why it's been a common topic. A lot of listeners have written in, and we don't have time to talk about today. We can talk about another time, but scaling a business, and I've talked a lot recently, that is eye opening for me. I have a job. I don't have a business, because if I leave right now my job, my business, won't operate without me. And so at some point you realize. Is that, and then to your point of this relentless pursuit of getting better, each one of those little things adds to making it something that exists without you, and so can you replace yourself? It depends what your goal is. Your goal may not be that, and that's totally fine, right? But it is also for me. I was like, man, 21 years it's like, God willing. Let's say I'm 41 years into this thing. It's like I got something that I can't sell. Do you think if you had an office building for 41 years, you paid off the debt? It's worth something you can sell it. It's just for some reason in building, maybe it's because the way to get into the industry is not that arduous. Or nobody talks about business creation and all the things that now we talk about all the time, right?


    Amy Hendel  1:00:36

    And I think just back in the day, I mean, it was a mom and pop shop that opened up, I can build your house, you know, I've got my pickup truck, and here I am, and it's just evolved into, it's a business, I mean, and we always our business coach, Coach. From day one was all right. Like, what is your strategic plan for? Three, 510, 20 years? Like, do you want to sell this? If you want to sell it, you need process. You need something that actually is tangible. It's not you guys anymore. You need to find people that will replace you. Your seat on the org chart needs to be replaced with someone who's even better than you. So it's, it's a different mindset that we've been like, thank goodness. Been taught to think this way. Otherwise, at the end of your career, you're like, oh shoot, yeah,


    Rick Hendel  1:01:14

    we've seen it too. In our builder group, there's most of the companies are actually sold now, and these were from guys that were stalwarts in the industry. They were fantastic guys. And I sit there in this group, and I look around, I'm like, I don't know how good that guy was before him, but this guy's amazing. So I don't know how that ever transferred, but it gives it gives us hope to one day to be able to do that as well, too, because I didn't have it when, you know, five years ago, before I was in there, I'm like, it's never gonna be worth anything. Worth their thing. I can't do that. But the way they've taught us to think about the business and pouring into people, and, I mean, so many different things, building a brand, all those things they add up to saying, yeah, it is worth something, and there is value to it. So in we are all replaceable. I mean, nobody's that great, agreed, and so, and I see the best part is I'm actually watching it happen in real life with many different companies and and looking at the numbers too, and you're like, wow, those that's impressive. Yes, that's impressive.


    Mark D. Williams  1:02:13

    I also think it's impressive looking around, I don't think age or time of service has anything to do with how far you go or the heights you reach. I've mentioned this as a compliment to Brad as well many times, and big fan of his podcast and the impact he's had in my personal life as well as professional life. But like, he's been in business for 10 years. It's not my place to share his revenue numbers. But like, you know, he's building 26 million. I mean, he's just That's 10 years, and he's got like, five other businesses. And I'm like, wow, right? And, and I think what's really cool is when you can get in the frame of mind that like that inspires you, right? I hope when people look at handle homes or other contemporaries in our market, like, I'm inspired by the builders we have in Minnesota, oh yeah. And like, you know, it was really cool. Pella brought us in to do kind of this round table, and there's some cool people at the table. And you're like, I've never met some of these people before, and which is rare for me, because I seem to meet most people, but I met a new person there. And it's just like, it's cool when we see a face to a company's name, you're like, they do great work. I'm a fan of their work. And then you get to meet the people side of it. And I'm just a big fan of our industry. And I think if there's one thing that I you know, as we talk to younger generation, or honestly anybody, it doesn't have to be younger. It's just like, I'm a fan of the people that want to do good things. And most people, if you use that magic four letter word help, guess what, they will respond, right?


    Amy Hendel  1:03:27

    Yeah, no. And a shout out to Housing First Minnesota, that has actually made our industry what it is. I mean, they have poured in resources and time and the best people and our tours to bring the eyes on the builders of of great work, and then that showcases our artisans that we know, and our craftsmen. And so it's it just goes so far that we have people that truly believe in our industry, and then even going to the schools and the high schools and the colleges to make sure that we have a future here, and that we're able to have the mechanicals, HVAC, the plumbers, the trimmers that are not 5060, but are 2018, whatever age they are not in college, is not for everyone. And so the trade schools are so important. So anyways, our our housing first, Minnesota does a really good job of thinking, being proactive and thinking ahead to who do we need to keep this industry going? I mean, I feel, if you feel very fortunate, that leadership is Outstanding, outstanding, yes, yeah, yeah. And it trickles down into everyone in that group. And


    Rick Hendel  1:04:28

    I'll speak to the local market here too. Part of what's driven me is the local market, right? I got to keep chasing after these guys, and they're doing this, and then they're not. Now they're doing that, and it's great competition, and when you find out they're good guys, so I don't mind going to a hockey game, a football game, a baseball game with them, that we can sit and talk all night. It's great. I've been on trips with them. So from that standpoint, we're very fortunate, because that only makes you better, so and it's great competition to push you. So yeah, no


    Amy Hendel  1:04:56

    ego. That's really what that is. Yeah, I agree.


    Mark D. Williams  1:04:59

    Well. One, one question that keeps coming up over and over again, and you hear a lot about tariffs, and what are you seeing and what is your clientele asking of you? Because I had sunny Bowman on maybe about five, six episodes ago, and at the time, she was like, anyone that tells you exactly what's happening with tariffs is a liar, because no one actually knows exactly what's happening. How are you responding to your clientele when they ask about it,


    Rick Hendel  1:05:21

    it's tough because it's been changing so quick, so often it's hard to tell what is actually happening. We have a couple of projects that aren't going to be affected, and we're actively trying to work through how do you deal with that? How does that work? What exactly is it going to be? What exactly are they going to tariff? Are they going to tariff just the steel part or the labor part, or how is that going to work? And it's like, when COVID hit, and it's like, All right, we need to figure this out. It's the War Room. Sit down. Figure it out. Talks about it. Part of what we do, too, is making sure we talk about it with our team too, because you never know. We've heard we have a client now that works with the appliance supplier, and he's saying that we're going to have some issues with that. There's going to be something that comes up with this. So he's like, order all my appliances right now. And so it is figuring it out. But again, it's anybody that we can think of that could be affected by it. We're asking, What are you hearing? Tell us. Talk to us. What do you see? What's even a rumor? Do we need to be concerned about it? Like, is there something that you could see increasing or coming into effect? So it's that constant communication. Again, if the better relationship you have with your trades, the more information you're going to get back out of


    Amy Hendel  1:06:25

    them. And what did you hear with lumber? Lumber was that was not terrible, not


    Rick Hendel  1:06:29

    terrible. For now, again, we don't know what's going


    Mark D. Williams  1:06:33

    to happen. So three times during this interview, we actually are


    Rick Hendel  1:06:36

    right. There was election last night in Canada, and so now we'll find out what happens with that, right? Yeah. So again, we have to be on our toes. Another interesting thing with our industry too is you're constantly with so many different suppliers. It's not just a couple of things, it's everything, everything. Well, I


    Mark D. Williams  1:06:53

    want to respect your time and the audience's time. Thank you guys so much for coming on. It was a pleasure to have you mark and so everyone can reach out to you. Have everything in the show notes. You can check out your beautiful work. Your beautiful work as can send you some DMs. You guys do amazing work. And thanks again for coming on. Thanks for having us. Yeah, thanks for having us. On Mondays, we interview builders, architects and designers across the country. Thursdays is Q A thanks for tuning in to the cures builder podcast. We've had the podcast now for two and a half years, coming up on three, and I get questions all the time through DMS, on Instagram, emails as well as to our account. Maybe we've had a guest on where a question has come up that really triggers an idea for you. If you didn't know, we have a one to one consulting session through the cures builder platform on our website, cures builder.com or cures builder podcast.com you can click on the one to one and schedule one hour of my time, and we will simply just sit down, have a virtual call, and we'll talk about any business idea that you want, marketing, branding, operations, really, anything that helps you and helps your business. Maybe it's a guest that you had on that you want an introduction to. Maybe it's a guest we've had on and they brought up something about scaling or hiring and firing, or anything that might resonate with you as a business owner that you want to expand and talk on, we'd be happy to do it again. That can all be found in our consulting page. It's really been really enjoyable for me as well to work directly with people. We've had probably 10 or 15 of these over the last year. A lot of times it's contacts or people to set them up in a way that makes them successful. And so if you're interested in that, please reach out to us at the curious builder podcast.com thanks for tuning in the curious builder podcast. If you like this episode, do us a favor. Share it with three other business owners. The best way that we can spread what we're doing is by word of mouth, and with your help, we can continue to help other curious builders expand their business. Please share it with your friends. Like and review online, and thanks again for tuning in. You.

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