Episode 129 - From Plants to Purpose: Landscape Design with Jonathan Blaseg
#129 | Jonathan Blaseg | PEBL Design | From Plants to Purpose with Jonathan Blaseg
What does it mean to design a yard that’s not just pretty—but purposeful? Mark sits down with Jonathan Blaseg of PEBL Design to dig into the wild (and often overlooked) world of landscape architecture. From plant psychology and drainage drama to why “just put a tree there” won’t cut it—this episode uncovers how smart outdoor design shapes how we live, feel, and even parent. Plus: the shocking truth about how few landscape architects actually touch landscaping.
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About Jonathan Blaseg
Jonathan founded PEBL in 2018 with the belief that design (and construction) impacts all elements of our daily life, it affects our ethos as a society and the health of our environment. His work merges an enthusiasm for ecology with a wide array of technical skills in documentation, detailing, visualization, graphic design, animation, and lecturing. He is a committed practitioner, teacher, and problem-solver. He leads the firm’s creative direction and oversees the integration of the construction practice with the design team.
Jonathan received his Master of Landscape Architecture degree from the University of Minnesota where he has taught as an Adjunct Assistant Professor since 2012, teaching a graduate design studio for students of Architecture and Landscape Architecture, as well as lecture courses in visualization, narrative, modeling and design. His academic work includes publication on the topics of sustainable climate change metrics (The Park Reconfigured), development strategies in the Venetian Lagoon (Extreme Cities), and sustainable food systems (Nature: Collaborations in Design).
Jonathan has experience leading design teams on numerous award winning and culturally significant projects – all over the world – which include; the Rwandan Institute for Conservation Agriculture (Bugesera, Rwanda), Marshall Riverfront Park (Minneapolis, MN), Upper Harbor Terminal (Minneapolis, MN), Beverley Taylor Sorenson Center for the Arts (Cedar City, Utah), Ward Commons (Honolulu, HI), and 2018 LILA International Garden Award winner, Lake Marion.
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Jonathan Blaseg 00:04
I could actually have a house that had a pretty bad landscape, but I had a beautiful vision of a master plan. But if I have that master plan, I can be way more rested and so aspiring towards that best is kind of, I still think beautiful. You know what it does. It allows for good luck. Okay,
Mark D. Williams 00:33
today on the kierstender podcast, we had Jonathan blasig, again from pebble architecture, and I've gotten to know Jonathan over the last, I suppose, six months, and we've got great chemistry. And it was just really fun to hear his, really his origin story, how he started the landscape company, and just really the challenges of, you know, how do you get over the stereotypes and how do you how do you cultivate more work from architects and builders? If you're interested in, basically how landscape architects work and sort of, how we're folded into high end architecture. You're gonna love this episode. Without further ado, here is Jonathan. Welcome to cares builder Podcast. I'm Mark Williams, your host today, I'm joined in studio with Jonathan. Jonathan blas egg from Pell design. Welcome, Jonathan. Thank you. All right. Well, it's kind of funny because we had a hour and a half design meeting already, and then we had lunch. And here we are. We should have had our lunch on the podcast, except people would have been listening to us chew, which doesn't sound great on
Jonathan Blaseg 01:28
a mic. Absolutely no. It's I love when a conversation just gets going, you know. And I feel like anytime you're in a meeting and you step out, you have so much self reflection, yeah. So,
Mark D. Williams 01:41
yeah, I think, you know, it's interesting. I don't think, I think you're a first landscape architect that's come on. I was wondering, yeah, no, you are, because we've had a number of architects, designers, builders, obviously, and other entrepreneurs. But I, I feel like, I guess we'll start right in and we'll get to your story in a minute. I feel like building for 21 years. And I'm curious to see if this resonates with you, or if you're too close to it being just with the great design work you do. But if this is a familiar story, I mean, early on, when I built, I mean, I used to have allowances. I built a home for like 500,000 I'd have a landscaping budget of like $2,500 this is back in life. No, I know it's, it's, it's, it's silly, right? And this is also back in, like 2005 right where $2,500 got you still nothing. But anyway, it'd be like a few plants, but like, people prioritize the house, and the first thing that was cut was usually like, if we had to do value engineering, was we cut out the basement so the basement would be unfinished. We would cut out as well before. I was using architecture interior designers. But landscaping was always this thing, especially in the suburbs, that you could do later. And then I think maybe 10 years into my career, basements are always, almost always in now. And now we have designers and but it somewhere around 2017 or 18, I finally started smelling the roses and realizing that, like good architecture, shockingly reinforces the architecture of the home and just makes it feel better. And it's not that I've never loved good landscaping, it's that my clients just never let me do it, and so it sort of jaded me personally. And now fast forward where I am today. I won't work on a project without having the architect, the landscape designer, really from the now what they want to scale it. I mean, you and I just got out of a budget meeting, and they can grow this, but at least they have the plan in place. I'm just curious why. Why is landscaping kind of like the whipping child? Am I wrong? Am I not just my path? But are you find that that's kind of a common story among, let's say, builders and homeowners in terms of how they look at landscaping, or Are You Too close to it because they're only hiring you if they already value landscaping, so you don't really see that dark underbelly.
Jonathan Blaseg 03:44
Great point. I mean, no, I that everything you said resonates, right? It's, it's part of why I started pebble in so many ways. One story I or like narrative I always like to think about is how our landscapes are so hodgepodge together in so many ways, like residential landscapes, right? It's because there were blue hydrangeas on sale at Home Depot, you know. And Jack just had the 100 left over dollars from his bonus, or whatever in that so we bought those hydrangeas, and that's why they're in front of his house. He didn't have a plan, but he could do it. And I think that's where I think psychologically, so many people think I can put a plant in the ground and they enjoy it too, right? I think there's also so much tied to even growing up, maintenance of your own home. I love to ask couples or clients or whomever, what was your landscape like growing up? You know, did you have this prim and proper that's a great question. Did you have tall fences in the backyard and and you get these really interesting stories from a couple like, if one one had one and one had a totally different and it starts to bring out these different sort of dynamics with regards to value systems and and how they like to like one might hate landscape, like actually doing any landscape. Maintenance. My wife is a landscape architect, and she'll probably listen to this, and she does not do any landscaping. I have this one picture of her in our, like, vegetable garden after we've been dating, like six months, and I relish it, because it was the moment I thought maybe she would be into landscaping. But, you know, I think there's just, like, so many dynamics about people and their relationship to landscape that is different than homes. You know, not many people have put up sheet rock, right? Not many people have framed out a home. Not many people have done those things like fix their plumbing. It's like, okay, I have to call a plumber now something broke, and so there's just a disassociate association with landscape. Also, I think that landscapes residential landscapes in particular, they evolve over time that much more because here again, you can be more incremental. You can be like, oh, I want to add something to my Boulevard. I just want to add these sort of things and and people take joy in it. I like to argue that if you have a plan, it can be that much more meaningful. It can. You can say, when I add that blue hydrangea, that it's part of a bigger vision, and therefore it has that much more meaning. And can grow and grow.
Mark D. Williams 06:11
I mean, it's funny. I can't believe it's taken me long, this long to think of it a home, doesn't we're trying to keep the best. I don't know if I agree with the statement, but most people would say, like the moment the home is done, it's in its most perfect state. It's going to be in. The maintenance is trying to maintain as close as it is to new, and that goes to a lot of things, cars. I mean, honestly, most things, but things that grow. I mean, humans, kids, trees, plants. I mean, obviously we're going with landscaping here. They're constantly growing and getting better, which is sort of the inverse of a house. I've never thought about that before, until you were just saying about how it grows, because having a plan with how the vegetation is going to move in color, and it's way beyond I joke all the time in my client meetings, you've heard me say this joke is, like, I'm like the bubonic plague to plants, like there's nothing I can't kill and I don't even need Roundup, like, if it doesn't thrive on neglect and ignorance and lack of attention, like, it's not gonna grow in my yard. So I need stuff that's gonna, you know, do its own thing, because I take no satisfaction or joy in like, I've got 500 other things I want to do besides go into the yard and do it. But so many people do enjoy sort of the zen of having the piece. And I, you know, my neighbor, I swear, every single Saturday spends like, five hours outside, and I see him out there, and he loves it. And I'm just like, I can think of so many other things I want to do, but it brings him joy. So I don't, it's mainly just a value statement, I
Jonathan Blaseg 07:34
guess. Yeah, and, and I think that that comment about how things age over time, I mean, it's a heck of a challenge, right? When we put sites in, yeah, they usually kind of don't. They don't look the best. And the goal is that they're going to get better and better and better. But I also say all the time, plants are really good at dying, like, and landscapes are intended to fall apart just in similar to homes, but like, they have different inputs. I mean, half of our work is because there's a water problem, you know, and something's been washed out, or something's just like going wrong, like, we're, we're often times solving so many problems on a site, as opposed to, like, just decorating. It's like, oh, that's like a secondary thing. And so, I mean, it's just really important to think
Mark D. Williams 08:18
through how what percentage of your work is with a, let's say, an architect or a builder or then that's how you meet the client versus you're working straight with. You know the end you the end client.
Jonathan Blaseg 08:33
For us, almost all of our work comes through a builder or an architect. Okay? And I don't know if it's 5050, or 4848 so close anymore. Our practices is not coming through, you know, individual it's like, I even joke that when we market, like when we put something in a magazine, we were just talking about some advertisement, we are marketing to architects and builders more so than actual homeowners, because kind of what we started with, in a way, there is a disassociation with that value, and that gets vetted through the builder, usually, and the architect, because they know the value. They kind of know the cost too. And so they can help to sort of assuage those concerns, you know, and value it and say, Hey, no, we really should think about this, because it's going to be worth it in
Mark D. Williams 09:22
the end. I mean, I can only speak to my own path, and maybe I'll share a little bit here. I mean, we'll have all your tags in the show notes and everything, but your website is incredible. Very good branding, very crisp. I like even the way Pebble is spelled, you know, P, E, B, L, no, E, every curious later to know why that is, unless it was just trademark canopy. We can't have the E but we can go out. But I love, I remember, you know how, like when you they say you need to see advertising like seven times or 14 times or 21 times before you do call to action. Or remember, I was very familiar with your brand well before I knew who you were. And I think what finally took because I'd seen it in ADS. I'd seen it, you know, a lot of high end builders. It seemed to always be associated with high end architects who I wanted to work with, high end builders, who I wanted to be peers with. And I kept seeing your brand show up. So I mean, you were obviously doing it, either intentionally, or it was being paired with that tier, which we've already talked about. And for me, we were called in on a couple of jobs where they had a landscape architect. And, you know, the in if there's one thing, I feel like this is a safe statement. But I do think architects love design and meaning all architects and architects love other architects to collaborate with. Several the architects that you and I have worked with before or are currently working with, you know, they're like, hey, when it comes to the house, I mean, they reinforce each other, but like, Hey, this is pebbles domain, or this is the architects domain, but we want to collaborate, because they know that being partnered with a landscape architect, they know now that the builder has made a value statement, as is the client which is going to make their architecture on their home also stand out that much more. Am I right in that sort of value statement that
Jonathan Blaseg 11:01
absolutely, yeah. I mean, they are so different, right? I mean, let's talk about landscape architecture, right? I have a master's degree in landscape architecture, same, same program as the architects go through at the University of Minnesota. I've taught, actually, you know, since 2011, 13 years, right? Yeah, absolutely. And if anything, some of my favorite classes have been. I've had the pleasure of teaching a couple studios where half the students are architects and half are landscape architects, so I get a chance to put my opinions a little bit earlier into them. But it's, it's a rigorous thing, right? We are fully accredited. We have standards that we have to live up to, and liability and ethics and all of those things put us, I think, at a professional level, that we hold ourselves accountable to. And I think Landscape Architecture gets punched into that commentary Ian, just landscapers, or landscape design or and so, you know, back to the original comment, like that sort of value system and sort of recognizing it as a profession that is different, having architects and builders who already value it and then can be the trusted advisor to their clients, to say that it just goes so far. So we enter it into the room. We're just set up well and and we are close to it, right? We, you know, we, I love to ask people, Hey, who's your favorite landscape architect? Who's your favorite landscape architect? Mark, it's Jonathan. How many other landscape architects outside of the city?
Mark D. Williams 12:26
Two. I only know two. I know
Jonathan Blaseg 12:28
three. I mean, it's so like we are close to it, right, right? I get them hundreds and hundreds, stylistically. Why? Why we love them and and why we're inspired and with clients so frequently I get going. I was in a meeting the other day and, and I think I even prefaced it, but they they paused, and were like, Hey, I feel like I'm getting a lecture on plant design, like, in a good way, I think, you know, and because I'm like, we think through the depth of these things, like whether it's a plant selection, like a type of little blue stem and and we know why we put it there, and we have it's like a story in the back of our mind of why it should be there. And we want a client to know that, so that if their friend comes over, they can tell them if they want to, but they don't. They probably don't care. Maybe they just want to be pretty but like, we want that value to be able to be applied if possible, and and in that it just it, I mean, applies
Mark D. Williams 13:23
Well, the thing that resonated with me, I mean, it's clear. I mean, obviously, even when you talk about it, and anyone listening can tell, but like, you're very passionate about it, like I've always I love, I'm gravitate towards creative types, and I also gravitate towards people that are really passionate. And when they're together, obviously a lot of magic happens. And so I'm not an expert. Have zero interest in being an expert, but I love passionate people, and I recognize, like, real good work when it's done. And I'm like, I love that. I don't know how they did that. I want to do that. That's my that's how I view landscape architecture is I know more about building just because I've been doing it for 21 years. So I'm a little bit more dangerous in the architecture arena. I'm I guess you'd have to answer this. I'm probably a pretty good client to have, because I will never tell you any selection ever. I'll be like, okay, whatever you pick, because I know nothing, literally nothing, about plants and so but I really much appreciate it so much more than plant. I mean, hardscapes is probably now getting into, you know, structural stuff. And I really, I like the creativity when I'll see like an advertising or I'll see a clever I saw something on your website today when I was looking at it before you came in and you had a little kid playing with a little nerf basketball, but then behind it was, like, this metal screen. It was on your website. I don't know if that's your sign house, yeah, I kind of figured. And I was like, That's really clever, which is odd timing, because my boys, seven and five are like, outgrowing the sandbox that we put in. I'm like, I need to do a little basketball thing in our little Minneapolis yard. And when I saw that, I was like, I gotta talk to Jonathan about to do a little because I'm a little worried about the ball flying down into the street and then the chasing it and he can hit by a car, because boys are dumb and don't look both ways, at least mine. And so I'm like, okay, but anyway, my. Idea is, is landscaping solves a lot more issues if we allow it to. We just need to partner with people that can kind of say, Hey, here's what I would like to do. Can you help me achieve it? And then you can come up with all kinds of
Jonathan Blaseg 15:11
cool ideas. Oh, well, and you hit the nail on the head. Right? Landscape architects don't just design plants, right? We do all the hardscapes. We do all the drainage, and really, in so many ways, the framework for the site, including citing the home, getting the elevation correct. The first step I usually do going into us into a project, depending on where I get, brought in some some projects we get brought in right at the beginning, like still the visioning when they bought the property, toured around with them and the architect. And sometimes they've dug the foundation, and everything's going in, and we have constraints heavily set. But the first thing I do is try to identify, you know, if there's additional costs that we could have saved out of the gates, usually that's walls, air and drainage, creating things that I'm like, Oh, why did you put that there? You know, in order to, frankly, carve out more money for the landscape.
Mark D. Williams 16:01
I mean, a bigger, a bigger site allows, I mean, I guess you have to more, do more stuff, because sometimes, when you're like, infill, a lot of our work is tear downs. And you do have a lot more constraints, right? I mean, you've got, obviously, size, but neighbors. I mean, you just even geographically, there's just not much room to site stuff on. I haven't, personally had, I shouldn't say that I'm doing it right now where we had to export all the dirt because there's no site nowhere to put anything. I mean, the city lots, they're very there's a lot of there's a lot more complexities than most people would give it credit for. And yeah, obviously building, yeah, we won't go into all the parts of building, because it's a whole nother podcast. But yeah,
Jonathan Blaseg 16:36
they're beautiful challenges that I think add layers of intrigue and complexity to what we do. Like you said, I mean, I'm very passionate about what I do. And as a professional, one of the most interesting things is when you start to do everything too. You mentioned marketing, earlier, construction, all of these things as a passionate, kind of interested person, I think I could have done a lot of things in my life, but actually do a lot of things before landscape architecture. But you know, when you go down those rabbit holes, you you get excited about them, and you see the opportunities. You
Mark D. Williams 17:07
know, we had talked about this, and maybe we'll go back to how you, you know, just mostly we focus a lot on business in this particular podcast setting, and we talked about good stories and whatnot. But you your journey into landscape architecture and how you got there, very curious, it seems like. And I know you're gonna agree, but I'm curious for you to expand upon it a little bit, the architecture route, whether you're doing home architecture or landscape architecture, I believe, is so heavily influenced by the commercial track, I've had a number of landscape designers, or, sorry, architects, on that either stopped their education and stayed as a home designer, or went on to be a full architect, but it seems like residential architecture and residential landscape design is kind of like the unwanted stepchild of commercial architecture. I just feel like it's very odd to me that there's so much talent in residential architecture and landscape architecture. Why is the commercial sector like this 800 pound gorilla. And I don't know, can you speak to that a little bit? Am I right or wrong? But why I don't get it?
Jonathan Blaseg 18:08
I mean, so Well, it starts at the at the education, at the universities, you know, in the value systems that get put embedded there,
Mark D. Williams 18:16
right? Tell me more. I mean, I'm very curious. Like, why is residential construction we all live to live somewhere. Why is it so sort of shunned? Well,
Jonathan Blaseg 18:24
I definitely never took a class in residential design, which is funny, right? Like, how many people come out of the program and end up doing it, and there's no classes on site design relative to all that makes no sense. That's crazy, I mean, but, you know, but I will also, you know, step also, we don't get always taught, like, the actual skills that we need to use, like AutoCAD drawing and, you know, things like that. You get taught design. Oftentimes, you get taught to be inspired. You get taught to sort of test boundaries and go through those things. So I'll I like, bounce back between being highly critical of, you know, at certain universities, and then highly, like, observant of, like, wow, I came out really inspired, you know, and so then, so that's step one, right? I also on a tangent landscape architects and architects do have oddly different tracks, sometimes, I think education wise. So a lot of architects get their undergraduate degree and go straight into their graduate degree and then go on to professional practice. So they're, you know, more, in their mid 20s, right when they're starting, whereas in my graduating class of landscape architects, nearly everybody was in their 30s, everyone nearly I think there were only two or three that had come straight out of an undergraduate program. They had lived another life. They had totally different bachelor's degrees. And so you end up with kind of a different group of people who are just kind of interested a little more seasoned in life. It's definitely more seasoned in life. And so I think that they have a different sort of bounce back response when they get into their professional careers. And so you'll find landscape architects who work in so many different ways that aren't directly applicable to working with Ian architects or or municipalities.
Mark D. Williams 20:05
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Jonathan Blaseg 21:19
Like I'm kind of always intrigued by what my classmates are doing in life, because less than half of them probably, probably look at work in the industry.
Mark D. Williams 21:26
Wait, you get a landscape degree, but you wouldn't be in landscaping anyone. I
Jonathan Blaseg 21:31
mean, here again, like, so, a term that gets used with landscape architects all the time is generalists, like, we end up having to do way too many things like, think about this is at the highly professional level, right? Whether it's master planning or it's city building or it's, you know, watershed planning, you know, we really tow into the civil engineering world so much that the scales are so all over the place. And, you know, somebody might go into a program thinking, hey, I want to be an environmentalist, right? And this is sort of like a lens towards that, and it is, right? And so then when they graduate, they're able to apply that degree in a different way, whereas Ian architects do it too, all over the place. But usually, like, especially if you're younger, and you're 18, you go to your undergraduate degree in architecture, and then you go to your graduate like, you have, kind of like educated in that, and you come out and you get a job at a fancy firm, right? And that fancy firm probably is, is a commercial firm, because they're doing bigger projects, and maybe they can actually afford brand new people too. That's probably another training sequence. So the training sequence ends up happening, and then you discover sort of who you are and you what you want to do. And then a lot of the times, the residential realm is entrepreneurs. It's people who say, Hey, I kind of, I figured out who I am and what I like, and I maybe that's working individually with people, you know, like more one on one. I know in the commercial realm, you work so much with, like, committee groups or, you know, large client groups. And so there's a different dynamic. And so I think people can draw upon their own human like upbringing and such, and sort of relate to residential in a different way. So it feels more natural to then, sort of like, add into as opposed to the opposite. You know, I barely ever heard of anybody who went into residential and then, like, eventually move to commercial,
Mark D. Williams 23:23
right? Yeah, it seems more like a move to home. This is just computer. Can you know guess of people that graduate, and I'll ask you this for if you have any pulse on it, for residential architects as well, what percent of people that, let's just say you got your landscaping architecture degree and you are in a commercial firm. What percentage of people stay in commercial versus residential? We're not counting for people that drop out and do something different, like, what do you think the split is on resident to commercial architecture? Well,
Jonathan Blaseg 23:56
architecture is so different than landscape architecture.
Mark D. Williams 23:59
No, I'm sorry for landscape architects Commercial to Residential. What do you think the split is on people?
Jonathan Blaseg 24:05
I think so few landscape architects who start in the commercial realm switch over to residential. They do so the world 9010 I would say 9010 Wow. Be you know, because the world of residential landscape architecture, I think, is different, right? And it does really speak to why I started pebble in that. Like you also said, budgets aren't that big, right? Like, so if you have a home, the the architecture budget could is, could be an 8020, split, right? So when you have a smaller sort of budget, there's, it's just harder to be a professional sometimes, right? And so I think those commercial practices, the like larger landscape architecture practices, they have more to work like they have larger projects they have, and they also are very varied, as we, as we kind of alluded to before. Almost every landscape architecture practice at that scale does master planning. They do part. Ian, they they work at a commercial scale, and then they might moonlight in residential I've worked at many different places. The first place I worked was in California. I was out at Town leader studio, which, did you know, massive scales of projects that in China and whatever, Asia and and then plenty of brought here. The initial project I was brought into was, was a redesign of them, of the Upper Mississippi River in North Minneapolis, essentially, and like a full master plan of that huge
Mark D. Williams 25:29
scale, crazy scale, right? What kind of scale like? Give us some perspective. What Is
Jonathan Blaseg 25:33
that always the whole park plan for kind of the adjacent land from downtown Minneapolis to the northern extent of Minneapolis. So, like the river, yeah, so, and a lot of it, it was called River first. It's amazing plan. And, you know, did it get built? You know, no, of course not, but, but portions of it have, there's been interventions along the way that have happened, like this year brothers site was a small part kind of intervention that was made, and it has inspired people along the way to kind of do things. Notably, there's the Upper Harbor terminal site that's becoming a park now. That was one of the first projects I ever worked on at Tom Lear studio. I actually worked at it. It's funny,
Mark D. Williams 26:12
you're in California working on one in Minnesota. Yeah, exactly. Well, and
Jonathan Blaseg 26:15
then I moved back to Minneapolis to work at Cohen partners. And ironically, I worked on the upper Harvard terminal site when I was at Cohen partners years later, and then it passed on to another firm who's finishing it now. But, you know, so these scales are all over the place. And so after Tom Lear studio, I came to coin and partners, which is kind of one of the local, like Legend, like firms around here, I would say, in the landscape architecture world,
Mark D. Williams 26:37
all three architects, landscape architects, I don't know, all turned on with you, which is funny. So, like the my pool of who I know is very small, they all worked at corner partners, I guess.
Jonathan Blaseg 26:47
I mean, it definitely feels that way as you start to kind of look around and so, like on your kind of question about residential versus commercial, I think Conan partners was one of these unique practices that had a great opinion on design, and that allowed them to work in a lot of different realms, and not caring like I'm doing master planning, or I'm doing some of these small backyard because I think Shane loved design, and he knew who he was and and he just did it. He did what he thought was the right projects, and that found him doing residential projects as well as commercial projects, as well as you name it, projects and you know, and probably that sort of passion for design attracted a lot of great designers
Mark D. Williams 27:31
along the way. Sure, that totally makes sense. When did you know it was time to start your own business and walk us through kind of those first steps? Because you've had it for about seven years or nine?
Jonathan Blaseg 27:42
Yeah. Person that. So, I mean, like I said, So Kona partners with such a great education in design, and I think every designer needs to have that sort of mentor along the way that kind of clicks with them. And through that process, I found myself and along the way, I also kind of had a rejection, let's say, of kind of big D design, glossy, high level rise in buildings and super fancy stuff. Let's just call it super fancy, right? Very, very technical term, and and partly because, like, I bet 8090, maybe even more, percent of the projects I was doing weren't getting built. I was just doing really pretty
Mark D. Williams 28:24
renderings, so because they're too expensive, or they got shut down in committee cities, like, why don't they get built? A
Jonathan Blaseg 28:30
combination of all the above, yeah, humans being carbon, bad at making decisions sometimes. I mean, it's and it's like, a whole thing, right? Like, it makes me so sad how much human capital gets waste and wasted on the design side of the world, sometimes, definitely in public projects, where there's so much by committee, you know, in the process of decision making and money allocation and timelines. But it's just I was like seeing so much great work, and yeah, things were expensive at different times. Would be over budget, whatever. I just sort of had a sad, like, a deep sadness about, like, the effort being put forth. And so I ended up going sort of an about face. I went to a non profit architecture practice called mass design group that was founded, I think, in Boston, but their first major project was in Kigali Rwanda. And I, oddly enough, I like, I think I went out to try out for a fellowship. I was like, going really well. I was like, I make half as much money and just do this fellowship for this nonprofit. And I applied, and they're like, Well, you're a little overqualified. We know this other practice, how about you go work there? And so they called me and, and I was like, Oh, this could be a really cool fit. And they had a this massive Conservation Agriculture University, 3000 hectares in southern Rwanda, and they kind of needed to expand their landscape architecture practice to be able to really absorb it and and I was like, That sounds amazing. I grew up on a farm. I love conservation agriculture. Were I like, high design. They had everything going on, and so I teamed up with them, went to work with them, you know, spent some time living in Rwanda with my family. Just learned it How old were your kids at that time? My kids turned three and five while we were there. That's pretty sweet. It was the greatest gift I could have had. I mean, the timing of it couldn't be more perfect. Not only did they have my parents, or many my kids have an extremely inspired father at the time because of the design work I was doing, but I was able to just like, leave our life here and live in a little house in a totally foreign country and just have that really special time together. It was so amazing. But one of the cool things about also working there was when you're working in different locales, sometimes you don't have the same access to construction. And so we ended up actually kind of developing and pushing at that time it was called mass made, so I wouldn't call it design build, but like they were in a I mean, mass is amazing. Please, everyone look up mass design group. They're just like my heroes, but they developed this sort of build entity where it was heavily focused on environmentalism, and it was heavily focused on kind of studying material procurement and really just being good stewards of the planet. But it also revealed sort of the lack of a workforce, essentially relative to what they were doing, and that they could sort of develop that workforce. They could say, Hey, I have this giant scale of project, and we can actually create, like a workforce and teach people how to be masons, teach people how to do these things in order to do the great work that we want to do, and it will be better because of it, and they have good TED Talks. And so I'll leave mass behind, but, but I was really inspired by what they were doing, and, and, and so I kind of carried that forward towards pebble when I when I wanted to do my design, build things. So the real reason I left mass was my family was going through some some health issues with my mother in law, and so she was suffering from all summers of the time. And so we had to move, move back and and so family dynamics really is what brought us back home. And so in a way, I was like, Oh, I guess I gotta do something different. And, and I kind of looked in the mirror and I said, Okay, oh, geez, what I've done this, I've done that. What am I gonna do
Mark D. Williams 32:17
next? So you had, at this point, you're not teaching at the University of Minnesota. It was
Jonathan Blaseg 32:21
still teaching, I mean, but I was Moonlighting, I guess, like one, one class a semester, sure. Okay, a little bit here, but, but, yeah, I looked in the mirror, I was like, Okay, I've done I've done the big D thing. I've done this, like, world traveling thing, you know, what do I want to do? And, you know? And I grew up very humbly in South Dakota. All my uncles are carpenters. I My first job was as a carpenter at age 14, getting paid five bucks an hour, working 12 hours a day. You know, I mean, digging holes was like normal to me. Like working really, really hard was normal. Heck, when I was 22 years old, I bought a house and tore the roof off and put a second story on it in South Minneapolis, because that just made sense to me, right? I was like, you just build things. So I always wanted to be get my hands dirty. I really wanted to always be associated with construction and and I had seen such disconnect with that in these other practices and so, so I thought, Okay, well, I want to start a design build practice, right, which also made more sense, because budgets are smaller for landscapes, and then I could work on my friends backyards for all intents and purposes. And that's hard, right? Like starting a construction company is different than design practice. And so I was able to kind of team up with with a slightly more, you know, established construction practice. And so we partnered up, and I partnered up with, with a close friend of mine, Levitt Peterson, was a fellow classmate in the graduate school, and so the name actually comes from a combination of our last names, Peterson being the PE and blossom being,
Mark D. Williams 33:53
ah, look at that revealed. Yes, little hot, take a little clever. I love it because the first one I saw was, of course, like to me, it was like a North Shore Beach, like pebble, right? It was like this beautiful water stone just had some really good Zen quality going on. But I love a good story. I like, oh yeah, I haven't had her on the podcast yet, but, you know, Sarah Imhoff and her husband, they're architects and still water, yeah. So Imhoff, I am imprint that has, I am from their name, same deal. And so I love when there's a story in the name. I just, I know, I like that.
Jonathan Blaseg 34:24
We were trying to find a third person with a j so we could be PB and J, you know, it's a silly landscape thing, if anything, it was like a little bit of because there, there is so much nose turned down at residential landscape design, because they don't always have landscape architecture that also the cutieness of it. I kind of always loved, like, the pebble, kind of like, you know, cutiness. Have you ever
Mark D. Williams 34:51
had anyone be like, Hey, do you know that pebble spelled with an E or two Ps? Do you ever have people like, just
Jonathan Blaseg 34:56
mess with you know, the funny thing is, it's actual. You pronounce people? Oh, it is, no, I just we are the people. Touche, so anyway, but yeah, marketing, I mean, but it's so the marketing aspect, it works. It's fun, yeah, like, I like to not take myself too seriously.
Mark D. Williams 35:15
Where do you so, as you've sort of developed, you said, basically you've got 5050, between builders and architects. Someone once told me that if you want to catch a certain kind of fish, then you should go to where those fish eat. And with the way, it dawned on me was, there's a magazine company that does, you know, Geo, geo fencing is, yeah. So, like, you can, you know, put, you know, from target marketing. And so, like, let's just say, in Minnesota, like, the Galleria, or why is that, or certain shops or certain districts, or if you're in, you know, New York, maybe it's Madison Fifth Avenue, or whatever your clientele is. You could, sort of people are into horse riding. You could geo fence Canterbury downs, or like the Polo event that we went to anyway. It's just really interesting. What got me thinking about this in terms of marketing is, you know, that builders introduce you to clients. That's where work comes from. And, you know, architects, how have you sort of developed those relationships with those two parties,
Jonathan Blaseg 36:09
good design? I mean, it's as funny to say, like when I started pebble at first, I was like, Oh, I've worked with these great builders through my projects at Ian partners. I'm like, oh, they'll totally be excited to work with me, right? Because they know me, and they just kind of, like, laugh at me and be like, well, you're trying to build things now, Jonathan, you're a designer. You're like, okay, shucks. So I had to, like, really keep like, I had to really dig in and take a bunch of small projects and prove that I could do it like, I could apply good design to, I think, smaller projects. And then, you know, you kind of, you cut your teeth that much more. And they do know you through, maybe your reputation, just, you know, through, through working on projects together, and reputation evolves. And you know, in the case of us, we've, frankly, just got one big project, like one kind of project that came across our table that had had some struggles, and they needed a problem to be solved, and we swooped in and and I think impressed everybody, and then that's just kind of creates momentum. I am actually really horrible at marketing. Like, I don't have any signs on our, on our like sites, you know, like site signs. I was just out of sight yesterday. I was like, goodness. Like, it's on the top of my list, and I haven't touched it for three years. You know, same thing, you know, we just don't do any marketing. So I would like to think it's just good word of mouth and trying to be true to yourself. We're really it's weird, because landscape also is like the tail that gets wagged by all the dogs, right? We really come in on the end, and so we don't get to control the process very much. One thing I've been trying to say a little bit more is that when you have a trusted process, trusted like, like when I go to a new builder partner or a new architect, and architects are easier because our process is so similar to the architects, the builders are different. I mean, every builder is different and and so trying to articulate, you know, our value through our process as well is is something that, you know, I don't know if that's marketing, but what it does is it continues to get us good projects and better outcomes when we don't follow our process and we allow ourselves to get wagged more. I mean, we saw good projects, but, you know, it's just not always as rewarding, because we're not able to convey that value to clients like we just we love what we do. I mean, you
Mark D. Williams 38:34
know, ultimately, and I think this is true for interior designers, probably as well. You probably fall more into their camp than architects and builders, because the lion's share of the work in our market in Minnesota. Anyway, I've talked about this on the podcast. Let's say the three main groups, interior designers, architects and builders in Minnesota, I think builders probably have the lion's share of the leads coming through them, probably through the strength of the Parade of Homes at 75 years old. It's, you know, rock solid, or grew up in Minnesota, going to a parade, or being aware of it. Other parts, it's architecture first, and then they introduce the partners. Where I'm going with this is not once did I mention the landscape architect. And so it's like, I think a lot of, I think a lot of clients. I think for me, at least, I get unbiased, because my own path, like I needed to be educated what the value was, so that, once I understood the value, and once I could place value like, Oh, I see what this does now. Now I'm a trusted resource and advocate for landscape design. To my client who trusts me, they see a beautiful home. They don't. It's no different than, you know, the cabin shop, the painter, all the other hundreds of people that the client expects me and depends on me to pick. I'm also pairing up. You know, the architects typically have a chance to interview for the project, but the landscapers tend to be the people that we that we select, and say, This is what we're working with. This is your best chance of clients. Or go, oh, okay, that sounds great. Well, exactly No. 100% and so there are some benefits to it, but I think the real key is educating you. The builders.
Mark D. Williams 40:06
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Jonathan Blaseg 41:19
What's interesting, too, I think, from the client standpoint and the value, I feel like I'm selling so much right now, no, because I really, like, believe it that I think the architects love working with a good landscape architect, because it's a sound. It's like that extra sounding board, like, there's a beautiful, I think, humility to designers that doesn't always get allowed to come out, like we are not. I mean, maybe all Architects like, think that everything they do is amazing, but I do like our I am humble. Like I want to make people happy. And so yes, I get hired to, like, put out my best vision, but I also want them to feel okay with saying, Oh, I don't like that part of it. That's why I like so often I do like three designs, because I and I'm like, show me something you don't like, because I want it to be a conversation. And I think that art, I know that architects frequently like working with us, because we can be a sounding board for ideas or help them solve a problem, and just kind of also be it's a
Mark D. Williams 42:15
better, better result. I also think someone I forget who told me this, but they use the term healthy tension. So I think you have a healthy tension between the architect, the landscape architect, the interior designer, and the builder, traditionally, those four and probably the client. Maybe sometimes do in this scenario, but like, we're pushing and pulling, and we've had that on our projects, you know, architect wanted this. This was a different you know, you get through it, but at the end of the day, everyone's viewing the project, and the project is better because of that healthy tension. Excuse me. And I think interior designers also have to face that a lot too, right? They're often called in. I tried, personally to assemble the team from day one. I mean, on the project we're working on together right now, we had the landscaper, or, sorry, the architect, the landscape architect, the designer and the builder was all selected on day one. Like that was everyone had, you know, was unified from the beginning. That doesn't always happen. A lot of times when sheer Designer comes in and people are wondering, like, who holds the microphone? I keep using this relay of like the four by 100 relay. You know, you have one leg, but the baton, we all share the victory. We all lose if the photonic gets dropped, we all suffer that loss in the Olympics, in this analogy. And so like, maybe in the beginning, maybe it's the builder. I hand it to the architect. The architect hands it to the interior designer. The interior designer hands it back to the builder. Now, where, I guess we have multiple people running this race, and then it goes back to the My point is, it's very collaborative, and without it, you can't run this race effectively and win as a team. In my opinion, it's
Jonathan Blaseg 43:44
a long race too. I mean, that's we were just talking earlier about the dynamics of being design build versus, you know, a designer and a builder separate. And, you know, there's just so much different, like responsibility that everybody has to each other, and having that tension to be able to have those conversations and push pull is really a challenge, if anything. What's challenging for us, a lot of times, is being the designer and the builder, because we're advocating for the design, you know, so much so, but we're also building in. There's a cost to that. We have to have a conversation about that and and getting to the point of, like, you know, understanding what somebody really wants, what their value point really is. Is it that the healthy separation sometimes between an architect and just a solitary builder can be really nice?
Mark D. Williams 44:34
There's not very many. I've interviewed one or two. There's very few architects that are also builders and vice versa. Why do you think that is? Well, I think it's kind of right brain, left, right? I think there's different skill sets. I mean, if I was to isolate it down, I'm not saying builders aren't creative, but we're kind of going to get it, get it done, kind of attitude like we need to get from A to C, and this is, you kind of need someone on the chariot to. Whipping the horses, sorry, horses like, we got to go and but yet, we still need a strategy and a game plan that's traditionally the architects. And I guess my point is going back to that healthy tension. I think you kind of need a little bit, because I've had one architect said, we stay in design land. We could design for decades. And, like, I had one architect tell a client, like, I think they're talking about, how thick is your plan set? He goes, I can do 20 pages, 50 pages, 70 pages, 200 pages. What do you want to pay for? And he goes, but we found that after, there's a healthy medium somewhere in the middle, let's just say between 40 and 60 for this higher end architect. And they said, Anything after that is just wasting your money, because when Mark is building it, if I drew everything that Mark is going to encounter. We'd be in design land forever. It's never going to, well, I could never stop drawing. It'd be way better when he in their course explaining construction administration when we're in it, hey, we're at the framing detail. There's a swoop of the roof that's going into whatever. How do we How does this get detailed? It's not that the architect didn't think about it, but like, hey, we need to, you know, this telescope. We need to get in a little closer, or microscope, I guess, in this analogy, and we need to get closer. Here's the detail on that. It's way more effective to do it that way than to try to anticipate every single question that someone may or may not have. Anyway.
Jonathan Blaseg 46:13
I love that attitude. And I mean, here again, why I got into design build was that respect for the build process and the fact that there were going to be so many decisions to be made and so many changes that I personally as a professional, have witnessed over time, and wanting to stay involved, you know, as a landscape architect, you want to stay involved in a project all through construction, but oftentimes, yeah, you might get cut out, but you might not want to pay a landscape architect to show up, you know, some annoying Design being right? And so being able to be associated with the build, we get to stay and make sure that that product is totally visioned out. It's just, it's, it has so many
Mark D. Williams 46:50
I think the other thing that's important too is, you know, building a custom home, and the whole project like, it takes a lot more. It's, I mean, I've been, this has kind of been my new line lately. It's going to take longer than you think, and it's certainly going to be more expensive than you want. And I use it in those terms, because it's also up to us to set expectations, mainly me, because, let's say, you know, at least so far, most of the stuff that we built clients have come to me first, and then I arrange the team. And so I'm kind of out laying like, this is what's going to happen. This is the scenario. This is how it's likely to go. But it is, it is. Sometimes it's daunting. If we we talk about all the meetings, it becomes a lot. And, you know, a lot of our clients have full time jobs, and they're very busy. They end up being some of our best clients, because we're still in the service business. And I think the best projects are ones who are professionals, and they allow you to do your work. They check in, they check in. They want to know what's happening. They want to be involved. But, like, great, go, go, go, do what you do and bring it back to us. But sometimes I think when we show I mean, you're building a custom home, you do get to see how the sausage is made. There's no secret. Like, it's a long process, and I feel like a big part of our industry needs a big dose of hospitality training and customer service training, myself included. And I'd like to think I'm good at it, but I can certainly get much, much better, because we do this every day. We get kind of it's almost like, if you're an endurance athlete, you get used to running a long distance, but for someone who's never run more than a mile, running five miles is kind of a big deal, and we do this all the time. So how do we make this more approachable? Because I bet there's a lot of clients that never engage in the design, build process, because it's not a clear process, and it takes too long and the cost, obviously. But if you could eliminate, there's three things I just said, If you could eliminate maybe one of them, possibly two, I think we would get a lot more clients, and think a lot more people would get engaged, because it is really rewarding. It is really fun. The people that do do it are just like, Oh, man. They often will do it again, you know, at some point, because it is a very rewarding process, like anything. It's not without effort, but it is rewarding in the end, well,
Jonathan Blaseg 48:54
and it's rewarding because of the personal dynamic of it to me, like, you know, I I just feel such a responsibility for people. Like we were telling a story earlier where I was kind of talking about how at some point in the project, we were talking about the cost of something, US and some architects, and we were kind of laughing, right? And it occurred to me that we were, like, laughing about our clients money and how expensive something was, and like, how rude that I was, like, Wait, that kind of can, sort of could feel rude. And we hit the hit pause button and made the comment look it's it costs that. That is actually what it costs these days. It's just that when I the comparison was, when I grew up, a can of Coke was 50 cents, and now a can of Coke is, I don't even know, maybe it's two bucks. I don't drink Coke. But the point is, every time I look at Coke is our main sponsor on this podcast. We
Mark D. Williams 49:44
just got canceled. Thanks a lot. I won't stop lifting up. We need Lacroix. Really nice Lacroix
Jonathan Blaseg 49:49
sponsor. And I'm just like, look, I have to laugh every I can't get used to that. Like, that cost. It is what it costs. And. Right? And, and so there's like an expression of humanity in that moment, I think, like the me just sort of feelings like, hey, wow, I'm awkward about this. And, you know? And so I think in the design builder, and in the world we are in design and build and all these different things, it's just people, right? And so I say the clients all the time, it's kind of part of our mission statement. Is, is making a commentary on that this is a long process. You're going to be with us. We, whether you like it or not, we'll either become, hopefully, friends, you know, more than enemies, but, but you know we are going to be a part of your life, and that if you can take that approach to it, and that's why our mission says it the way it does, that it can be more rewarding, and that you, at the end, love your house more, instead of having some, like, post traumatic
Mark D. Williams 50:45
shock from say it in those terms, because I just had a flood of memories. I'm thinking of homes that I've built, and I could attribute certain things to it, like, Oh, that was Jonathan's idea. I really appreciate that nuance. Oh, that was Angela's idea. I love how that came together. Oh, you know what that? That is the client's idea. And, like, I guess what I'm saying, like, it ends up having a personality, it does. And that home could never be created without one of those partners on it. And we're building every home is a prototype. It's never been built before. I'll never be built again, certainly not with the same team. Obviously, some people do semi custom and things like that, so it might take on the same shape. But for sure. Landscaping, there's never been one land. I mean, you can't even do the same. No, it's not even possible.
Jonathan Blaseg 51:25
Well, you know, there's, I'll be talking about AI these days, right? And I'm terrified of AI for architects, let me tell you. But on the landscape side, and don't get me wrong, it'll, it'll definitely replace a lot of landscape design. But you know, the complexity of the constraints of and hopefully. I'm sure every architect is rolling their eyes at me right now, like, No, we're all perfect and special. But sorry, I have not made fun of architects enough on this yet. That'll be a whole different asset. But you know, like, there's the constraints of sites, they're unique, and they always will be. What
Mark D. Williams 51:58
would you say? You know, we're doing a series right now on Tuesdays called losers are winners, and I always feel like we learn better from our failures than we do from our successes. I shared one about an AI note taker that I had. I was a doozy during your career owning a business as an entrepreneur, what are some things that stand out that you're like Oof? That was a big misstep, but it was a super valuable learning moment, where you feel like, you know what you now going forward, you feel like, oh, wow, I'm much better prepared. My business is either leveled up or it's gotten better, because I learned from whatever happened.
Jonathan Blaseg 52:36
I mean, that's yeah, here again, another whole episode. I have a motto which everybody in our office knows well, which is fail faster. I just because we're going to fail. I mean, it's just, it's inevitable, and so you got it, you need to push things to the point where you kind of recognize those issues and or can ask the critical questions that bring up these memories. So in my practice, the biggest lessons learned kind of come related to that sort of where construction needs design. And it's number one, sort of an enthusiasm for design that you gotta get it built. It's like, it's like, who cares if it doesn't get built? Right? The fanciest thing in the planet, if they can't afford it, don't
Mark D. Williams 53:19
do it. His. I shared this quote the other yesterday. It was, don't let the best be the enemy. No, best is the enemy of good enough. Do you think that's true? Yes,
Jonathan Blaseg 53:28
no, I don't. Only because I believe in aspiration and I think the mind is a powerful thing. It's kind of like the Master Plan comment earlier, like I could actually have a house that had a pretty bad landscape, but I had a beautiful vision of a master plan I could, like, rest, like I My wife knows this, like I have to, like, work towards perfection in my built environment and but if I have that master plan, I can be way more rested and so aspiring towards that best is kind of, I still think beautiful. You know what it does. It allows for good
Mark D. Williams 54:12
enough to me. Oh, okay. Like, that's fair. I mean, I think it's very situational. I mean, I could argue any point one way or the other, because I could make an argument for both, right? Like, I don't think the NASA Space Shuttle. I think I want the best, but actually, I shouldn't say that. Elon Musk has proved that wrong. You know, NASA, I've heard it like, right? It's, you know, the Ferrari and SpaceX is made making a bunch of Ford f1 50s. They're still great vehicles. They get you to space at a fraction of the cost. But, you know, we can go so the best of the best of the best on every single thing I can't think of. You know, I did this analogy there to have a team. You know, you can't build I know you like baseball. You cannot have a team unless you're the Dodgers or the Yankees, and even then it doesn't work. So you can't have the best player at every single position, at the maximum salary. Even if you have the money, it won't work. You still need a team. Chem. Street you look at like the bulls. I mean, yes, you had Jordan, and you had Pippen and a bunch of role players. They're still the best team because they, you know, together. And I think that's true in business. I think the partners we choose in, you know, for this is just a statement, I'd be curious how you react to this, probably pretty favorably, because I want to work with you. Is spoiler alert, if I had a choice between being really good or someone I really like, I will pick someone I really like. Like, I think I told you, like, there are, there are a lot of there's a lot of talent in this town, for builders, for architects, for interior designers, for landscape architects, honestly, for every position. So one of the most important things is, who do you want to spend your time with? Like, I generally enjoy you. I think you're funny. I like your joy, like your passion. But on top of that, being incredible at what you do, they're like all these other wonderful things, and we have to make value judgments. I think clients come to us and say, Hey, there's other builders we could build with. I've used this as a it's not even a sales line, it's just the truth. Who do you want to spend the next three years of your life with? It's a long time. It's not a minor commitment, and it goes both ways. You know, there are some clients that are just like, these amazing, like, and so I had a client once after we built her home, you know, you spent, we have a bi weekly meeting schedule, and we met with her for two, two and a half years between design and the build, and when we're done, she was, she sent me a note after like, a month of like, kind of like, quiet, and she's like, I feel like a member of my family has gone missing. It was really sweet. It's true. And so you get really
Jonathan Blaseg 56:24
attached. I just told this story, I think just yesterday, from a client, because when I started pebble, previous to that, I'd had this project at Coin partners and and actually my my company, landscaper innovations, that's the name of the parent company of bevel. Landscaper innovations had built the project in, like, 2014 2015 anyway, I love the project so much I still like dream about it. And so when I started pebble, I missed it. And so I actually convinced I started my own maintenance division so I could take that project. Oh, I took the maintenance to see my own factor. And then I eventually merged with landscape renovations. And now we, you know, we all do it happily together, but I just walked the site the other day with the client. And, I mean, I just kind of, you know, missed, missed the was
Mark D. Williams 57:08
that the one with the water fountain that we just saw? No, no, you and Chad were in the video. Oh,
Jonathan Blaseg 57:13
we were just there, okay, but it's still a great project. Yeah, no, what you said also, like about, you know, wanting to like who you are, what you do. I think it probably resonates, hopefully, with a lot of entrepreneurs, in that, you know, that's the point, right? You're doing something that you have a little bit more control over. I find it interesting with my employees and like my partners. I never call them employees, really my collaborators, whatever that I I'm always gut checking against those lessons learned, because I'm so sensitive to the process I've had to go through. And a big one is kind of being selective with partners, because I know when I was earlier on, I was saying yes to everything, and I'm still pretty bad about probably saying yes to everything, but like recognizing Yeah, just how much more joy you get from certain partners and doubling down on that. Like I was just in a meeting the other day, and I was just like, so happy with who I was in the room with, because it just felt like a homecoming in so many ways.
Mark D. Williams 58:12
Yeah, for sure, for sure. Well, as we, you know, come into as we slide into second here on a double how, what are you most excited about in the next year. I mean business wise or personal?
Jonathan Blaseg 58:22
Oh, just continuing to evolve the narrative of our work. I'll never get it right. But I find myself so excited when I walk into a room with new people. And I just I compared to parenting, right? I remember when I had a child and I realized that I couldn't just download everything I'd learned, all the mistakes I'd made, into their head, like they were going to have to make those mistakes themselves, and the dauntingness of that. And sometimes, like, when I meet a client, you know, I'll always ask like, oh, have you worked with a builder before? Or have you Is this your first go, right? Yeah. And you just have those moments where you're just, like, you need, like, I just want to know everything about them. I want them to know everything about me in order to see if it's going to be a good fit. And, you know, and so, like, I want to get through that. And so for us, you know, from from the standpoint of the company, you know, it's about narrative and talking about our process, and then drawing it all up. So recently, over the winter, we actually did like racy matrix. I think it is, you know what that is? It's like responsibility, all accountable. I should know. But anyway, it's essentially drawing out your entire process from start to finish, sure that three year process, and sort of identifying all of the tension points along the way and saying, How can we be better here? How can we not get caught? We have
Mark D. Williams 59:48
something similarly called the emotional roller coaster. And there's a, there's a there's a graph that shows, like, you know, design, people are like, really excited, and then you get to pricing, they're really depressed. And then you start. Right? They're excited again. You get you get to drywall. Nobody likes drywall. It goes down again. It's but it's like it ends up being this squiggly line, like a stock ticker, and it's just up and down, up and down. But I have found it that giving it to the client at the pre construction stage and telling them you can expect your path, I think it takes away some of the highs and lows, because I think expectations again, I go back to this. I fail at this all the time, but I think all business owners, and I don't think you could ever get this right, but the more we can tell our clients what to expect, the less that they'll be surprised. I had someone one time tell me that you can either be not gonna say this as eloquent as they did, but basically, you can lead the information, or you can be asked for it, but if you tell a client what to expect versus them asking for it, and I've been guilty of this many times, or I should say, I've failed at this, and our team has failed at this many times. We keep trying to get better at it. But if a client has to ask us a question in terms of not, like a genuine question about something we can predict, but if they're like, Hey, is something, is this going to happen soon? Is what? Like, what's next? Like, we should, the client shouldn't have to ask us, what's next. I don't think we should be better at saying, this is the next couple of steps. This is where you're going. We have something builder, transit software we use where it's you know, on Fridays, there's a look back. It's Hey. This is what happened this week. This is what this what is happening next. You look ahead, look back today, and then I look forward. And that is helpful. If the clients read it, that's I'm also convinced this is my new my new soapbox. I'm convinced men don't read. I'm absolutely convinced, without a doubt that men don't read. I don't know, and I can say that because I'm a man, men don't read. They stink at
Jonathan Blaseg 1:01:38
reading. I You've heard
Mark D. Williams 1:01:42
it here on the curious builder hot take. Men don't read. We have to talk to our schools. Well, we could go for hours. I want to respect your time in the audience's time. We'll have everything the show notes. Thanks again for coming in studio, and we'll see you for the next two years. You really made a mistake in answering my phone call, by the way, and I didn't say it enough. But we'll have separate episodes where we'll have you on for 20 minutes. So we're having all of our partners that are partnered with miso Hoos on the podcast, on our collaboration over the next year. And you know, that was our first kind of as we were arming up for other projects you and I are working on, I asked you to take a look at miso, and a lot of people know what that is, and so I'm excited for when that comes to fruition, what it all looks like.
Jonathan Blaseg 1:02:22
I remember that first conversation. I asked you, what's your favorite tree? I said, does it say Aspen? No, you said, I don't know. Like, you just like, totally avoided. You're like, I don't That's your job. You're supposed to tell me what my favorite why you got so many questions. Oh, that's so funny. You're the one who should be questioning getting in with me.
Mark D. Williams 1:02:41
Yeah. I mean, that's fine, yeah. Well, that could be, that's my that's for someone who doesn't market. I thought you had really good branding. I am a little shocked. They don't have a sign. We're gonna have to work on that, all right. Well, curious builder out. Thanks for tuning in to curious builder podcast. If you like this episode, do us a favor, share it with three other business owners. The best way that we can spread what we're doing is by word of mouth, and with your help, we can continue to help other curious builders expand their business. Please share it with your friends, like and review online, and thanks again for tuning in.
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