Episode 53 - Lessons from the Top: John Kraemer & Sons on Winning in High-End Home Construction
Episode #53 | John Kraemer | Winning in High-End Home Construction
In this insightful episode of The Curious Builder, Mark Williams candidly chats with the John Kraemer & Sons team about their unique, customer-first approach to the family-run luxury home-building business. They dive into Kraemer's marketing strategies, the importance of reputation, and the organic growth from referrals, sprinkled with personal anecdotes and future aspirations in both life and business. Don't miss John's take on the familial dynamics that have led to their consistent success and multiple "Builder of the Year" awards!
Listen to the full episode:
About John Kraemer & Sons
As the state’s only Five-Time Builder of the Year, John Kraemer & Sons has been building luxury homes and remodeling fine residences since 1978. Founded by current President Gary Kraemer and his late father John, our firm focuses on luxury residential projects of all shapes, sizes, and styles.
We specialize in everything from large estate home construction to empty-nest homes, to lake cabins, and major renovations. With two of Gary’s sons, John and Jeff, in the business, the firm is now a third-generation company and will be around long into the future to build, remodel and most importantly, service our clients’ homes and stand behind our work.
Our staff is committed to making every building or renovation project exceptional, from the moment we meet until long after we hand over the keys. The Kraemers (John, Gary and Jeff) are personally involved in every project. We listen closely to each client and build a home that clearly reflects their lifestyle and personality.
John Kraemer & Sons is unique in the fact that we employ all our own job superintendents, project managers, and several finish carpenters. Each client is assigned a job superintendent who will be on-site each day until their home is completed. This personal relationship is the foundation of each John Kraemer & Sons project and sets us apart from most builders whose superintendents manage many projects at a time. We have the horsepower to get projects completed for our clients on time, on budget, and with exceptionally high quality.
Resources
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Mark Williams [00:00:00]:
This episode is brought to you by Pella Northland for 19 and a half years I've been building homes and 95% of all my homes have used Pella windows. I couldn't be happier to call them a partner in our builds and our remodels. Whether you're an architect, a designer, or a remodeler, I'd highly recommend Pella windows. They can fit old homes, new homes, reclaimed, commercial, and really everything in between. Pella is a company that we trust and that we recommend to our clients. Additionally in management, Peter and Ed have just been absolute fantastic people to work with as well as mentors to me personally. So when it comes time to look for a window, I'd highly recommend Pella windows. Find more@pellainorthland.com also, if you're interested, you can hear episode one where I interview Peter and Ed together for a great listen on business and Pella windows.
Mark Williams [00:00:46]:
We're excited to announce that our first live event is now on sale on our website. On May 16 at 05:00 in the North House in Minneapolis, the curious builder is going to be hosting Brad Levitt, Nick Schiffer, Tyler Grace, and Morgan Molliter to a panel discussion about networking, marketing, your brand and your business and all things related to the Contractor coalition, which is coming to Minneapolis on May 15 through May 19. If you're looking at leveling up your business, I'd highly recommend attending for those local here in Minnesota. It's right in your backyard. This would be an amazing time to network with some of the nation's best builders with the best building practices around. Join us for the contractor coalition. Or if you just want to be there for one night and enjoy the networking and meet these superstars from around the country. Again, that is going to be May 16 at 05:00 at the north house.
Mark Williams [00:01:36]:
Tickets can be bought@thecontractorcoalitionsummit.com. As well as thecuriousbuilderpodcast.com.
John Kraemer [00:01:43]:
I would say over 90% of our business is referrals.
Mark Williams [00:01:46]:
90%?
John Kraemer [00:01:47]:
Yeah, for sure.
Mark Williams [00:01:48]:
Wow.
John Kraemer [00:01:49]:
It goes back to that take care of your clients and they'll take care of you, right? That's what I always say. And we give the clients a good process. Like you said earlier, it's not always perfect. We're building homes with human hands, but we give them the best process possible and we take care of them after their home is done and we're there for them. And that spreads, right? They tell their family members, their colleagues, their business partners about us. And then when it comes time for them to know, they usually call us.
Mark Williams [00:02:28]:
Welcome to the Curious Builder podcast. I'm Mark Williams, your host. Today I am joined with the whole family of John, Kramer and sons. I've got Gary, John, and Jeff. Thanks for coming in, guys.
John Kraemer [00:02:36]:
Hey, good to see you.
John Kraemer [00:02:37]:
Thanks for having us, Mark.
Mark Williams [00:02:38]:
You're welcome, Minnesota. You guys need very little introduction because you guys have a powerhouse brand, and you guys build amazing homes that are usually on the front and back of every magazine in the state. But for those that are listening outside the Minnesota area, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself, and we'll dive a little into your history before we get into kind of the fun stuff.
John Kraemer [00:02:58]:
Yeah, that sounds great. I mean, any of us can really take that, but I guess I'll start. We've been in business for 46 years, dad and his dad, our grandpa John, started the company together back in April of 1978 when dad was just 20 years old. And 46 years later, we specialize in high end luxury custom home building and remodeling. And, yeah, we're a family business. We're really proud of that. And Jeff and I have families, too, and we hope that the family business will carry on for another 46 years in the future.
Mark Williams [00:03:38]:
When you first started, Gary, so you're 20. Why building? How did that become the thing that you were going to do?
Gary Kraemer [00:03:44]:
It's just all I ever knew. My dad was a custom home builder. And then probably about 1965, I was about seven years old, and he switched over to just subcontracting carpentry labor to other builders and wasn't super satisfied with that. And my dad had an 8th grade education. He insisted that all of his children go to college. So I went to Normandale, which is a junior college. It's a nice, respectable junior college, but it's not. And so I went there for two years to make him happy.
John Kramer [00:04:22]:
Then I registered to go another two years at Augsburg College here in Minneapolis. And actually, the eve, the night before I was supposed to go to my first classes, I was a 20 year old. And I said, dad, I'm not going to do this. We had talked about starting a business. Let's do this. And he argued with me and pushed back, and I was unrelenting. And that's how we got started.
Mark Williams [00:04:49]:
Were you interested in the lifestyle, in doing your own thing? Like you had an interest in homebuilding? Everyone kind of has a different story. I'm always kind of interested to see how it compares to mine because everyone has their own story. So they relate it to themselves. What was it about home building? Or that was just. You were piggybacking on something that your dad had already done, and they're like, hey, let's do a business together. So it's homebuilding. Or was it specifically, like, you knew you wanted to be in construction?
John Kramer [00:05:14]:
Yeah, I always knew that I wanted to be a home builder and primarily in construction. When we started the business in 1978, I thought, I'll be a carpenter my entire life. And our only goal was, let's stay busy. The early years of the business were not great. The Jimmy Carter years right through there. And the economy wasn't good.
Mark Williams [00:05:37]:
Was that the 18 20% interest rate?
John Kramer [00:05:39]:
Yeah.
Mark Williams [00:05:40]:
We had my dad, David. You guys are similar ages, and I know you guys know each other. He was on. And he talked about taking, like, boats and trailers and anything on trade because people couldn't afford those high interest rates for a down payment. But you could also build a house a lot quicker. One of the things I have for you for a question before we get too far down, is the evolution. People see who you guys are today, and there's amazingly detailed, architect driven homes that you guys are a part of. I assume you didn't start there.
Mark Williams [00:06:09]:
What was that evolution like through the decades?
John Kramer [00:06:12]:
Yeah, I mean, the very early years, our first probably 20 jobs were very nasty. Bathroom, remodeled jobs on older homes in north Minneapolis, south Minneapolis. Nothing real pretty. Just some things we got from friends in the industry, plumbers that we knew and people like that that got us work and built our first home, probably. I guess it was maybe late 79, early 80s, somewhere in there. And built it as a spec house. I think it was about an $85,000 tuck under split entry. And my dad and I did all the framing, all the carpentry on the whole thing, which we did for many years.
John Kramer [00:06:57]:
Did all of that ourselves. And I was happy. That's all I ever really wanted to do. There was no grand plan to be the John Kramer and sons we are now.
Mark Williams [00:07:06]:
At what point? Because I'm guessing you were born in what, mid 80s? John?
John Kraemer [00:07:10]:
83. So I just turned 40 a few months ago.
Mark Williams [00:07:13]:
Okay. Happy belated birthday, budy mark. Appreciate it. At what point, like, being kids. And, Jeff, you're probably, what? Late?
Jeff Kraemer [00:07:21]:
Thirty s. Thirty seven.
Mark Williams [00:07:22]:
Thirty seven. So at what point did you guys kind of looking on? I assume now that I have little kids, I have seven, five and three. None of them really know all that much. Like, at what age did it start dawning on you that, hey, my dad and my grandpa have something kind of cool. We want to be a part of it or we don't want to be a part of it.
John Kraemer [00:07:40]:
Well, I think Jeff and I have two very different stories. You can kind of tell yours if you'd like. Yeah, I can start.
John Kramer [00:07:47]:
So, similar to my dad, I've always been interested in construction. So even from the very tiny ages of two, three, four or five, I was always the one building things. Legos, erector sets, anything I could get my hands on or take apart, or take apart. So to me, construction was always sort of ingrained in me, and it's always what I wanted to do. And yeah, probably when I was the age of 1415, maybe started working on the field in the summers, just clean and sweeping, doing the labor type tasks, and eventually that led into framing and trim carpentry, and learn all the different skill type trades like that. Not a ton of experience, but enough to understand how you work through those different parts of the business. And growing up, every weekend we'd be going out to construction sites and walking the sites, and I just loved being a part of it. Took that.
John Kramer [00:08:41]:
When I went to college, I went to Mankato, Minnesota State, Mankato, and got my bachelor's degree in construction management. And then I graduated in nine during the really great economy of 2009.
Mark Williams [00:08:54]:
Great timing. Yeah.
John Kramer [00:08:55]:
And so couldn't find a job out of college or couldn't find an internship out of college that I needed to kind of finish that degree, and ended up interning with Kramer and Sons and been there ever since.
John Kramer [00:09:08]:
He actually did find one in Boston. He just didn't want to go.
Mark Williams [00:09:11]:
Didn't want to go. That's funny. And how about you, John? What was your childhood experience? Seeing kind of the building that was happening?
John Kramer [00:09:16]:
Yeah.
John Kraemer [00:09:17]:
So I was always fascinated by the business, the industry. Like Jeff grew up pushing a broom, working on job sites during summers and stuff like that, but he was the one putting together 2000 piece 3d puzzles when he was like five years old and all that stuff. I've always been more business oriented, entrepreneurial. I kind of always knew I wanted to run a business of some sort. Was always fascinated with construction, but didn't always know what I wanted to, you know, in high school, I competed in DeCA and BPA, which is sales and marketing competition, basically, and went to state and nationals and stuff for that, and took all the business and entrepreneurship and business classes, and then went to Gustavus Adolphus College for undergrad, where I studied communication studies and business communication degree. Minored in business.
John Kramer [00:10:15]:
Business for guys that aren't good at math.
Mark Williams [00:10:17]:
I mean, I was communication and business, odly enough. It's like now with the podcast, it's like, oh, hey, this communication degree, although I'm not sure it did anything. I mean, I don't think talking is necessarily something you. I mean, I guess you can learn.
John Kraemer [00:10:27]:
A little bit about it. Well, I mean, communication degree and was one credit short of double majoring in business. And it was because I didn't want to take calculus. So if I took calculus and passed it, I would have had a double major, but decided not to do that. So, yeah, just always knew that I wanted to do something in business. The rule in our family, I'm the oldest, but our rule was that you had to go work somewhere else for two years if you wanted to be in the family business. So this predates jeff. We hired him right after college.
John Kraemer [00:11:05]:
I graduated from Gus davis, was engaged to my wife. I was a marketing director at a bank in edina for two years. And in 2008, dad, economy was just booming in 2008. I think we all know what happened during 2008. And we had like two or three houses under construction or something like that and said, hey, I'm ready for you to come on over, if you're ready, and gave it some thought and decided to come on over. So I've been doing it full time now for 16 years, and it's been absolutely fantastic.
Mark Williams [00:11:44]:
I have to imagine that it was the end of 2008. I remember because I had my first huge spec home timed out in October of 2008, and obviously November and all that kind of that collapse. But one of the benefits, looking back now at the time, you're a young man. You don't think it's a benefit, right? You're just trying to struggle. But I have to imagine, too, one of the things that we all fight in being a multigenerational builder is the perception. Like, oh, people tell me all the time, I assume this has happened to you, where people are like, oh, you just got your dad's company. Oh, you just inherited. Like, I hear that all the time, right? Yeah.
Mark Williams [00:12:18]:
And the story is totally different. I won't go into my story now on this. How? Because I'm sure any family business gets that. And from a parent's point of view, I'll get to Gary in a minute because I'm kind of curious, some of his insight as he's raising you, you, because there'd be some trepidation about even having your kids come in. Like, how do you balance it? Pros and cons, that kind of thing. But how have you sort of. I guess where I'm going with this is like being that 2008 is when you started. 2009 is for Jeff.
Mark Williams [00:12:44]:
We collectively navigated the worst downturn in building in pretty much the history of the US. Do you feel like that experience now, in retrospect, has taught you a lot of lessons that you're able to apply now? And how often do you draw on the things that you learned then, even today, in running your business?
John Kramer [00:13:05]:
That's a question for these guys.
Mark Williams [00:13:07]:
Anybody?
John Kraemer [00:13:09]:
Well, obviously I started in 2008, Jeff was 2009. So, yeah, we saw the worst economy we've seen in our careers. So really, to a certain extent, we've only seen growth throughout our entire career, which is very interesting. But, yeah, I'm trying to think of things that we could take from those slower times. We worked really hard to get projects. It was good for us. One thing I kind of learned about that we've been in business now for 46 years. Back then, we had been in business for, what would that be, 30 years, if I'm doing the math right? Not a big math guy.
Mark Williams [00:13:55]:
Yeah, no calculus.
John Kraemer [00:13:57]:
But we stayed relatively busy during those times because we had a solid brand and because we had been in business for a while and people knew we were a safe bet in really good economic times. It's like everybody with a hammer thinks they can build a house. During those times, people were going with builders that were tried and true and had a good reputation for quality and taking care of their clients and were financially stable. And so that really actually helped our company and really helped us come out of the recession in growth mode. One other thing I kind of learned, and have learned this with my marketing and business background, but when times are tough, you got to keep your name out there, right? I think when times get tough, when the economy gets bad, people cut marketing right away. It's one of the first things they cut. And we were actually out there building our website, running ads and magazines, getting our brand up and running on social media and networking with architects and stuff like that. So, yeah, I guess that's what I have to say about that.
John Kramer [00:15:11]:
One thing I would say I learned from the nine years early on was just how to compete for work, because back then it was much more. Very often we were competitively bidding projects, competitively biding in interviews, and learning how to really dial in those budgets and make sure everything's there but you're still being as competitive as possible. Was a huge time of learning during that period, for sure. And to your question, kind of on how John and I have handled growing up in the family business. And that sort of perception is, I think one thing that's kind of cool about going through that 2009 period is crammer and sons had always been, I think, a smaller business all the way through, still doing these big luxury homes, but just a handful of projects every year. And I think one of the benefits that John and I and my dad were able to realize is as we came out of 2009, that's when we were able to really expand and grow the business. And we all did that together as a team. That's really cool.
John Kramer [00:16:12]:
That I think has been able to at least insulate John I a little bit from the perception of he just kind of jumped into the family business.
Mark Williams [00:16:23]:
And I only bring it up because I face it all the time when people don't know about mainly, it's not really usually people in construction, it's people on the outside or you get this all this time. Like, being an entrepreneur is great. Doesn't mean it's easy. Not everyone should do it. I mean, it's really hard. Sometimes I wonder why I do it. But the point of it is, it is scrappy. It's hard work.
Mark Williams [00:16:43]:
And I think sometimes when people have a dream and maybe don't do it, and then they maybe see somebody else that does, I just think it's a lack of awareness, of really understanding what it takes to create a business and to sustain a business. I mean, you hear these crazy stats, right? I don't even know them. But the percentage of second generation businesses that failed third generations, I mean, it just keeps getting into the smaller and smaller numbers because longevity is really hard. And so I really appreciate your answer, Jeff, because I think that really speaks to, I mean, obviously you took a huge growth step and you gobbled up a ton of market share from your point of view. Gary, what was it like? And I'm framing this question from my point of view. Unlike John and Jeff, I don't want my kids to get into building because I don't want to be building in my seventy s. I know I got married a little later and so I'm 43, but my kids are still pretty young, so it's like, man, I'd have to be in my 70s. Building is.
Mark Williams [00:17:38]:
It can be a grind. I love what I do, but at some point, I don't want to do that every day. And my daughter would be an amazing owner. And we do need more women in construction for sure. So she'd be great and I'll do whatever I can to support her, but honestly, I'll let them do whatever they love. But I really hope they don't love building. How did you handle that? Like being in a company with your dad, was it something you really wanted to continue, or did you kind of have similar trepidation where you're like, man, if they get into building, what if it doesn't work out? How did you navigate that as a dad?
John Kramer [00:18:12]:
I grew up with my father saying, you need to do something else.
Mark Williams [00:18:16]:
Right?
John Kramer [00:18:17]:
You don't want to come into construction. You need to be a doctor, a lawyer, an educated person, and do those kind of things. This is hard work. It's dirty work. You lose money from time to time. We all know those kind of stories, but I never listened to them, fortunately. So when the shoe is on the other foot and I'm the dad, I really neither encourage them or discourage always. If I knew Jeff was going to be a builder when he was two.
Mark Williams [00:18:51]:
Right. Sounds like.
John Kramer [00:18:52]:
And there'd be no stopping or in.
Mark Williams [00:18:54]:
The demo, I mean, sounds like you take apart stuff pretty good.
John Kramer [00:18:56]:
There'd be no stopping him at that point. And John, I knew, was going to be a great entrepreneur of some sort, whether that was with us. John came around to, this is what I want to do. And he had a passion for business, and he had a passion for this business. Jeff had a passion for construction. And not to overuse the word, but I've had a passion for doing this my whole life, and I honestly don't feel like I've ever worked a day in my life. So my goal is always to be to work until I'm 70, because that'll be a 50 year career. That'd be the 50th year of John Craven sons.
John Kramer [00:19:33]:
And there's days I think I'm not going to make it to 50 because I don't want to. And there's days I think I won't be able to stop. So we'll see what happens. Right. Every day is a new experience. But the one thing. But you were speaking earlier about the nepotism thing is I face some of that. Right.
John Kramer [00:19:53]:
You're taking over your dad's business. And I know these guys heard some of that stuff, too. It just was never true. When they both came into the business in eight, when John came in, I think it was around six or seven. We've got the article somewhere at the office where Minneapolis St. Paul said, john Crammer and son's the best builder you've never heard of.
John Kraemer [00:20:17]:
Yeah, it was Twin City business magazine.
Mark Williams [00:20:19]:
And do you ever hold it over them when you do some negotiating for ad read.
John Kraemer [00:20:23]:
2007, I think it was.
John Kramer [00:20:24]:
And John clamped onto that right away, and he talked me into, I'd never done any advertising my dad, or maybe a charitable somebody wants you to buy a page and a charity auction thing or whatever, that's fine. But real advertising, John started that for us, and that really helped build our brand. As he said earlier, we had a great product and a lot of great photos from homes we had built before they were in the business. And a great story to tell. But he came in and told the story. And then with Jeff. When Jeff came in, I never felt like we're know, professional with our project management and know we're smaller. I could handle all that myself for the most part.
John Kramer [00:21:16]:
And he brought a professionalism to that. And the combination of these two helped this company explode.
Mark Williams [00:21:25]:
Yeah, you've got marketing, you've got organization, and you have experience. That's a pretty potent. Pretty potent cocktail. Yeah.
John Kraemer [00:21:32]:
Well, I mean, took a company that had a great reputation for quality and taking care of their clients, which is what grandpa dad did. And basically that's all we knew how to exposed it to the world. It was essentially what happened was your.
Mark Williams [00:21:47]:
Grandpa, how long did John. Because John Sr. Right, because John, you're named after your grandpa.
John Kramer [00:21:51]:
Yep.
John Kraemer [00:21:51]:
And then my Gary's middle name is John as well.
Mark Williams [00:21:54]:
Okay. How long did your dad, Gary, work with you before? Was he around when you guys were a part of the company, too?
John Kraemer [00:22:00]:
So he passed away. Valentine's day today.
Mark Williams [00:22:04]:
Really? Wow.
John Kramer [00:22:05]:
Yeah.
John Kraemer [00:22:06]:
Crazy. 2006. So, wow. 18 years ago today, I didn't even realize today was the day it is.
John Kramer [00:22:15]:
Today changed Valentine's day for me forever.
John Kraemer [00:22:18]:
Yeah. So that was when I was a senior in college, so we always had a great relationship with grandpa and grandma, and I never got to work with them.
Mark Williams [00:22:30]:
Interesting. Maybe we'll go into marketing and some of this other stuff, but just because we're on the family, have you guys discussed how does the next generation, obviously it's you guys take over? What does that transition look like? And I frame that with, we had a live event last year, and we had some members in the audience that had asked questions to the person I was interviewing. And one of the questions after was in a very successful business where you have a family legacy, and I assumed they had a number of family members trying to get into this business. How do you navigate that? I mean, it's pretty clear it's the two of you, but have you guys talked about that? What does a roadmap look like that. I think there's a lot of builders that have a lot of family in building, and this is a question that they all sort of navigate, and it seems like, I don't know if you talk to other builders about it, you talk to your builder 20 about it. How do you navigate through this?
John Kraemer [00:23:23]:
Dad can kind of talk about the future and stuff like that. A lot of people don't know. Jeff and I also have a brother that's ten years. I did not know that 30 years old. He and his wife are both captains in the United States army and stationed down right outside of Austin, Texas. So we don't know if he'll ever be in the business. He always has a place if he wants to, but he's always really been into military and law enforcement and stuff like that. So I just want to put out there.
John Kraemer [00:23:54]:
We do have another brother as well, but I don't know if you want to talk about just the future and how we navigate transition and stuff like that.
John Kramer [00:24:03]:
Yeah, I would say that's a work in process, to be honest with you. We all know that it will happen, and we all know about what the timing will be, and we know about how it will go, but we're just working on formalizing that stuff right now. And one of the parts of the equation I have to figure out first is when is that right? Because I'm not 100%. I know that I don't want to work till I'm 80, but 70 doesn't seem that far away. I'll be 66 in April, and again, I will probably be like my dad. I'll announce my retirement, and I'll still show up at the office the next day, and hopefully they won't change the keys. Right?
John Kraemer [00:24:55]:
Well, the challenging part is we all really like working together. And dad loves, I think you tell other people, love working with your kids. So, I mean, I could see him keeping an office there till for as long as he wants.
Mark Williams [00:25:12]:
The reason I asked the question that way, too, is because to your point, Gary, you don't know how do you know when the right time is? And I'm sure you talk to peers or other people that have left. Do you regret it? Do you want to get back? And everyone has a different personality, different interests. My dad should tell me, if you want to have hobies when you're an old man, have hobies when you're a young man. And he had a lot of hobbies, and he retired very early. I have a lot of hobbies. I hope to retire early, but who knows? You got to make money before you can retire. But I guess my point is to your earlier comment that you've never felt like you've worked a day in your life because you love it. And when you do love something and you love being around the people that you're with, it makes it really rewarding to be there.
Mark Williams [00:25:48]:
Why would you want to go anywhere? So it's just interesting. Just mainly just seeing kind of like, your personality. I don't know you as well as your sons, and so it's mainly just what makes people tick. It's always kind of interesting to hear how they navigate those steps. And then obviously, I guess you'll know when you know.
John Kramer [00:26:03]:
Yeah. I don't have a lot of hobbies, honestly. Travel, golf. But you can't do that all day long either. And it's just not interesting enough.
John Kraemer [00:26:14]:
Yeah, I mean, we're unique that we're kind of anomaly almost, but not an anomaly, but unique in the fact that we're a family business that actually likes each other. You hear about so many dysfunctional family businesses and stuff like that, and we're really fortunate that we all get up and go to work every day and we really enjoy working together.
John Kramer [00:26:33]:
The other thing I'd just like to add, too, is that they don't need me. They don't. They could run this company probably better without me. That's kind of a joke.
Mark Williams [00:26:45]:
But look at the level ups, too, right? I mean, from marketing to operations in the last 16 years. Think of how much your company has leveled up, as you've already said, because of your sons and because you've also allowed them, I imagine, like any parent, encouraging your kids, kind of allowing them to kind of rise up and do their own thing, give them a voice, but yet still offer some sort of guidance through that process. I'm not there yet with my kids. I'm sure it's not as easy as it sounds. Every day has got to be challenging.
John Kramer [00:27:14]:
Yeah. Why the distinct, I guess, blessing that I worked for my father and now my children work for me. So I've seen this from both sides, and I don't really have to overthink it very much. They could run the company just as well whether I'm here or not here. And that just makes me feel good to know that. Yet they do like to see me in the office still, and they do bring things to me. And.
Mark Williams [00:27:46]:
When difficulties do arise, I mean, you have a great relationship. How do you navigate the process? Let's say you guys disagree on where the ship is heading, where would you see yourself butting heads? Is it operationally, is it marketing? What are some places that you would say, man, I don't agree with you, and then how do you get through that?
John Kraemer [00:28:09]:
That's a good question. I think it's interesting because, again, we have a unique thing here where we all have different skill sets, but we all respect each other and love each other. And one thing that's a constant between all three of us is we all have the exact same sense of humor that we got from him. So I think that's really important. And we're able to get through things a lot easier together because we don't always agree on things. We don't always see eye to eye on things, but we always come to a solution. I mean, Jeff, I don't know if you have any examples of what we actually butt heads on.
John Kramer [00:28:43]:
Really don't butt heads on much, but it's really as simple as if there's something that we're all not seeing eye on, it's, hey, let's go out to lunch. Let's go sit down for ten minutes and just figure this out. And it's usually done pretty quick, and so it's pretty straightforward, and it's a good thing that we agree on most things, I would say so that helps.
John Kramer [00:29:02]:
Both John and Jeff have such different skill sets, yet they're best friends. So that's a very unique situation.
Mark Williams [00:29:10]:
Yeah, well, that's really helpful. Well, maybe we'll move on a little bit to just talking a little bit about the company, how it gets run. The goal of every episode is that those listening, including ourselves, would be able to get two to three ideas from each other to sort of apply to our own business. We'll talk a little bit about marketing. I mean, obviously, Minnesota is pretty well celebrated. You guys just won. You're the reigning builder of the year. You've won it five times.
Mark Williams [00:29:35]:
Talk us to us a little bit about a marketing point of view that is really a continuity and really an amazing achievement over, was it 1520 years, however long that award has kind of been going on? Gary might know more of the beginnings of that. But how have you leveraged your reputation as a peer competitor and a friend to you guys and watching what you do in my short career span, you build incredible homes. You have really tight relationships with architects. You're one of the, if not the premier builder in the state, certainly in the top two or three. How is it that you have gotten to that level and talk us a little bit about it? Now, looking back, because I imagine not everything, as you mentioned, is intentional. Sometimes I assume it's just one good decision after another. And after doing that for 20 some years since you guys have joined the team and longer from when you wrote with your dad, it sort of evolved. But just talk to us a little bit about things that you've seen in your own career and how you've sort of leveraged them or have added to kind of your reputation to become who you are today.
John Kraemer [00:30:38]:
Do you want to take that? Like dad always says, we've never written a business plan. He didn't have a business plan when he started in 1978, and we still haven't written one. We kind of not fly by the seat of our pants. That's not the right word. But like you kind of said, mark, you go day by day, and it's a series of solid decisions and successes and failures, and you kind of just grow and get better from there. I think the one constant for the last 46 years is we're very passionate about quality and how we take care of our clients during the process and after the project is over. So I think that's really been a huge success, a big reason for our longevity and how we get the projects that we do.
John Kramer [00:31:30]:
I think it's all about taking care of people, just how you take care of them. I make them feel comfortable. There's a stressful deal to build, especially in our case, a multimillion dollar home or multimillion dollar remodel. That's a stressful time, and we do it professionally and calmly. Our financial process is very professional, and we just take care of things. Minnesota has a one year warranty on cosmetic things, two years on mechanical, and ten years on structural. And if somebody has a little drywall crack or something in year two or three, we usually just take care of it. We don't send them a bill, and we just take care of things for people so that gets passed on to their friends, how well they've been taken care of.
John Kramer [00:32:26]:
And I think more importantly, as we've grown, we've hired people with that same attitude, people that want to take care of other people. So we've got just an all star team of employees, and they're all singing from the same hymnal. We don't need to write down a business plan. They all know the drill.
Mark Williams [00:32:48]:
People do. You guys have now working with you.
John Kraemer [00:32:50]:
I think total we have 35 employees, right?
John Kramer [00:32:54]:
Yeah.
John Kraemer [00:32:56]:
Well, I won't go through all of them, but we have eleven job superintendents, five project managers, three owners, two accountants, laborers, carpenters. So the list goes on.
Mark Williams [00:33:10]:
Yeah.
John Kramer [00:33:10]:
And just even smaller things like we've put a lot of focus on safety and spent money on safety where a lot of other builders, the commercial builders, all are into it.
Mark Williams [00:33:22]:
Right.
John Kramer [00:33:22]:
OSHA is watching them closely and with good reason. And we've embraced OSHA. We've embraced a lot of the standards and things. And I think our employees like that. I think our subcontractors, they all push back against a little bit because it's more to do. But I think they all understand that we have their best interests at heart.
Mark Williams [00:33:44]:
It also offers clear guidelines, I would imagine.
John Kramer [00:33:47]:
Right.
Mark Williams [00:33:47]:
And also because not every builder that's in residential probably does the level of safety protocols that you do as you train your trade partners. And like any of us, you have a very talented family, a team. But also our trade relationships are vital to any construction company. Right. So having a good reputation, showing them that you care has got to be. I have to imagine that people are excited to a work on the projects that you have for a variety of reasons, both because they're obviously really interesting and creative, but also because they know they've got a team that is going to support them. That is something you can't fake, like a reputation. And you hear grumblings from trade partner.
Mark Williams [00:34:26]:
It's a pretty small world and those that have a pretty stellar record, if you will, nobody's perfect. And sometimes you have to question where you're getting your news from. But by and large, you kind of know in a small community, and honestly, Minnesota is a pretty small community. I mean, you kind of know the good ones because a good reputation sort of can transcend some of that.
Mark Williams [00:34:47]:
This episode is brought to you by adaptive, the software for builders that automates draws budgets and bookkeeping with AI. For over a year now, I've been partnered with adaptive and they've just been an amazing game changer in terms of efficiency in our time, in all our bookkeeping. From the time we get an invoice, we import it into their system. The AI codes it, cost codes it, job codes it, all we have to do is review it, pass it through the people internally in the office, all digitally, and then it gets approved and paid all via Ach. It's becoming extremely fast and saving us countless hours a day and a week. When it comes to draws, all of our budgets now are set in adaptive as well. So now when we costcode against the draws, we can do our change orders and then with a click of a button, we can submit these draws to our title companies or to our homeowners for faster payment. If you're looking to save time, and if you're looking to be accurate, I highly recommend adaptive.
Mark Williams [00:35:39]:
Additionally, if you'd like to listen to one of their founders share the story of adaptive, you can listen to episode number 15 on the Curious Builder podcast.
Mark Williams [00:35:46]:
Going back to even just the five time award. What has that meant to you? And I know you're heavily involved with Minnesota housing first. Gary, you were president. John and I are both on a number of boards together. Walk us a little bit through what that has done for your career and maybe just some observations of how you've used it to know, help yourself or give back to the community, whichever way it kind of goes.
John Kramer [00:36:12]:
I have always seen my involvement at housing first as my way of giving back. But along the way, I've learned quite a bit from the staff there, from the lobbyists. And the advocacy that that group does is absolutely incredible. I think like none other in the country.
Mark Williams [00:36:33]:
I mean, it's incredible. They're the oldest in the country, right? Or I should say like the parade of homes. Just celebrate its 75th anniversary.
John Kramer [00:36:39]:
We invented the parade of homes here.
Mark Williams [00:36:40]:
Exactly. I mean, it's kind of the blueprint for the country. And I agree. We've taken it for granted myself growing up son of a builder, son of a grandpa of another builder, you just think that's normal. But then you go into other communities and they don't even have a parade of homes. They've never had a parade of homes. It's just kind of interesting how spoiled in some ways we are by the level of excellence that we have. And today, I don't know if it's ever had stronger leadership than it has right now.
Mark Williams [00:37:06]:
It's pretty impressive.
John Kraemer [00:37:07]:
I think the leadership is incredible. There's a lot of energy around it. They're modernizing basically everything that they do. And like my dad said, it's kind of my way of giving back, being involved in our industry. I mean, housing first is the group that's down at the Capitol lobbying for things that are important to all of us. Builders, remodelers, realtors, everybody, homeowners, everybody in this industry. They used to be called the Builders association of the Twin Cities, and they rebranded a housing first because they are all things housing. It's not just for the builders.
John Kraemer [00:37:42]:
We are a big tent of housing professionals. You mentioned the builder of the year award. We're really proud of that. You can only win it every five years, as you know, and it's given each year to the builder who best exhibits trust, ethics and customer satisfaction. So we think those things are all things that our company embodies every day. So we're really proud of that. You asked how we use it in marketing and stuff like that. Well, you've seen our marketing.
John Kraemer [00:38:15]:
We use it. We use it in our email signatures, in our print advertising, on our social media. We think it is a powerful message just to get out there that, hey, we've been builder of the year, and this is why. Because we are the builder that best exhibits those qualities. Those qualities.
Mark Williams [00:38:36]:
How often have you had a client mention it or talk about it in a way that was like, we were considering a few, but you could, I don't know if you can directly relate it specifically to that, but if you had any, I mean, what kind of, what do your clients say? What did the architects say that you.
John Kraemer [00:38:52]:
Work with about that award specifically?
Mark Williams [00:38:55]:
Or is it just a nice thing to have? I mean, you still have a reputation. In some ways. It's an award for things you've done in the past. We were lucky enough to win. I think it was it 2020, 2021. And really it was funny because I remember at the time thinking like, wow, we have so much more I want to do. And so you're thankful for the acknowledgment of what you've done, but for me, it was sort of like an inspiration of what I wanted to mean. Does that kind of resonate with you or have you had a different experience with kind of what that means for you?
John Kraemer [00:39:23]:
Yeah, no, I mean, I think people acknowledge architects say it before, even when we're interviewing with other clients and stuff like that. This is meet John Kramer and Sons. We recommend them to build your home. They're five time builder of the year. So people use that. People do see it, how meaningful it is to one client or the next. I don't know. I think winning it once is great.
John Kraemer [00:39:50]:
Winning it multiple times is great, but having it that we've won five times, that's not a trend or that's not anomaly. We are consistently over the years doing the right things that allow us to win that award.
Mark Williams [00:40:07]:
When you're speaking of meeting with clients, how often are the three of you? I mean, you've got a pretty powerful story when you meet with a client. Walk us through a little bit, even like your sales process, because I get this, I'm a smaller company, so every client gets to meet me whether they like it or not. But how often do you guys meet as a team? Walk us through that a little bit, because I think sometimes these organizations get pretty big, and so it's just kind of interesting how that all gets conveyed.
John Kramer [00:40:36]:
For the most part, when we're doing our interviews with new clients, it's almost always the three of us. And that is a great interview process for us because I think it allows these people to meet the whole team, the guy who started it all and the next generation, and kind of see the whole team. And obviously, even just like in this podcast, we all have different things to offer in this type of setting or in an interview setting or when the home is actually being built. And so after, hopefully we're awarded the job, then we all three try to stay involved in the projects. We're out at site meetings the most we can. We're meeting with the clients on weekly, monthly site visits and design meetings before the project starts. Yeah, just trying to be involved as we can and not at every meeting. But it's as much as we can, for sure.
John Kramer [00:41:24]:
And as much as all three of us can do it together, the better.
Mark Williams [00:41:27]:
I mean, I have to think that's a pretty powerful sales tool when there's three people and you're like, this is our family unit. We collectively together are John Kramer and sons, and we want to build your home. I mean, I don't know. Sign me up. I don't have the money to build with you guys.
John Kraemer [00:41:44]:
Well, it is a good story. And you have three kramers. Our names are on the door. We are the same family business that we have been for 46 years. We haven't reorganized, changed names, gone out of business, nothing like that. So we're just really proud of that. And we do have a very good story to tell. So I do think it is powerful in the sales process.
Mark Williams [00:42:06]:
I noticed on your website you have an enormous list of referrals, which actually I really liked. It made me think, like, oh, I need to add more than the ones that I have because it's a long, long list in terms of, like, you'd mentioned taking care of your clients, which is where I'm kind of going with this, is just loosely how many of your builds would be referrals repeat clients versus maybe the more traditional approach, which is maybe they're interviewing multiple people. But can you speak to really just the power of how the referrals have helped kind of elevate your brand over the years?
John Kraemer [00:42:42]:
Yeah, I mean, you guys can jump in, but that goes back a long ways in the history of this company. But I would say over 90% of.
Mark Williams [00:42:54]:
Our business is referrals, 90%.
John Kraemer [00:42:56]:
Yeah, for sure.
Mark Williams [00:42:57]:
Wow.
John Kraemer [00:42:58]:
It goes back to that, take care of your clients and they'll take care of you. Right? That's what I always say. And we give the clients a good process. Like you said earlier, it's not always perfect. We're building homes with human hands, but we give them the best process possible, and we take care of them after their home is done and we're there for them. And that spreads. Right. They tell their family members, their colleagues, their business partners about us.
John Kraemer [00:43:27]:
And then when it comes time for them to build, they usually call us. So we do a fair amount of marketing. We do print advertising and social media and stuff, but that is kind of just to keep our brand out there.
John Kramer [00:43:45]:
I will say, though, that with the brand out there, when somebody does recommend us to somebody, that person has probably heard of us. So it's maybe an easier recommendation. Like, oh, I've heard of them. Yeah, I'm going to give them a call.
John Kraemer [00:43:57]:
Yeah, that's a really good point. And why I was saying this goes back a long time. You heard the evolution of the business with dad and grandpa starting framing houses together, doing tile work and electrical work, and remodeling homes in Minneapolis and stuff like that. That eventually led to them building their first home on Lake Minnetonka. It was their first project, over a million dollars. And that was 30 years ago.
John Kramer [00:44:23]:
Yeah.
John Kraemer [00:44:24]:
And now we've built for three of the kids and their cabins, and they've referred us to probably 15 different people over the years that we've built homes for. So you do a good job for people and you take care of them, and that's how you're going to grow your business.
Mark Williams [00:44:42]:
How have you handled service? Do you have a dedicated service department? I mean, they just call you, and how does that work? I mean, the reason I ask is I've given it some serious thought about mainly from another revenue stream. I see other companies that have a service team, and I keep getting close to it and then realize, like, oh, man, that's a whole nother business. That's a ton of work. But a lot of builders do have kind of like, I'm going to service only my clients. You have, obviously, some trim carpenters and some labor on staff that you could maybe do that, but you have dedicated service professionals, or how have you navigated those waters?
John Kramer [00:45:14]:
Yeah, I could take that one. Service obviously, is super important to us and how we treat clients after the project, and usually that process goes, is they're reaching out to their project manager, their job soup within these warranty windows. Right. If things are happening or whatever they need, they're calling their team from the build.
Mark Williams [00:45:34]:
Right.
John Kramer [00:45:34]:
So they're handling a lot of that stuff. But to your question about long term maintenance or how we handle that, is we do have a separate business. We call it Kramer care is the name of the company, and that is sort of what you're talking about. It's a quarterly, biannual, once a year maintenance that we schedule with these clients. And at this point in time, it's just Kramer and son's clients. We haven't necessarily opened that up to the whole world, necessarily, or the metro or anything like that. So when we get out of projects, we introduce our clients to the program, and if they're interested in doing it, and a lot of them do, a lot of them don't, and that's just fine.
Mark Williams [00:46:16]:
And I have to believe that's some sort of a subscription service. So there's a pay for that, right?
John Kramer [00:46:20]:
Yeah, it's like a pay thing. So usually that kind of kicks in after you get through that one year warranty stuff, but it's all just the maintenance of changing out filters and duct cleaning and all the different things that go into managing a house. So really, whatever you want it to be, it's meant to be sort of a concierge service of whatever these clients want handled on their house as much or as little.
John Kramer [00:46:42]:
And honestly, it is a whole separate business. It takes a lot of time to manage it, and we're really still just developing it ourselves.
Mark Williams [00:46:50]:
Yeah. Who runs it now? Is that you, Jeff? Do you run that department?
John Kramer [00:46:53]:
Yeah, kind of. Yeah, it's me. And then we have a couple of our carpenters that are the guys that go out there and do the work at the site. And then obviously some subcontractor work as well. So I'm the one doing more of the scheduling and getting those guys scheduled.
Mark Williams [00:47:10]:
That's what's actually stopped me from doing it, is the amount of scheduling and the small stuff. And it's like, how do you ever bill hourly? But obviously the size of homes that you're doing, I assume. I've talked to another builder that built up north, and they did a lot of stuff where people were gone seasonally winterizing. They had copies of their keys. I mean, this concierge service is not a new concept, but executing it professionally is not for the faint of heart or unorganized. It takes some serious. It's a whole nother business. That's why I ask, because I'm like, we're such a smaller company.
Mark Williams [00:47:43]:
I'm like, man, do I go get all my clients to then subscribe to it and then build a team to support it, or I see a lot of value to it. But again, we all have finite amount of time. And that's my own personal dilemma. That's why I'm asking specifically is like, what's worked for you? I see the advantage of it, of course, taking care of your clients. Who doesn't want to do that? It's no different than the medical system. Right. Which fails a lot. But you have the doctor, you have nurses, you have the staff.
Mark Williams [00:48:11]:
I mean, all of that is for patient care, right? And so I would say in many ways, like health departments, building a home is because it's so intimate and you're in people's lives, it is held to a very high standard that we try the best we can. But to your point, John, we're still humans with human hands, and you do the best you can. And as long as I think the intention and the effort behind it is there, people usually have a lot of grace, too.
John Kraemer [00:48:37]:
Yeah, I would agree with that.
John Kramer [00:48:39]:
Also, being known for quality, being known for service is a little bit of a double edged sword because I think there's times that we're held to a higher standard by our clients as well. So we try to, I've had that. We try to hit those marks.
Mark Williams [00:48:53]:
I've had that weaponized against me before. In fact, actually, I'm just thinking of it now. I've had the build of the year award used against me before in a negative connotation where they're like, well, surely someone who would win builder of the year would do this, that and another thing. And you're like, but they're weaponizing it in a negative way. But to your point, you're held to a higher standard. And so there's always a flip side to the pro. And there are some cons that. And I'll take those cons all day long because it's just part of having a target on your back for excellence, I guess.
Mark Williams [00:49:24]:
Yeah.
John Kraemer [00:49:24]:
And we should be held to a higher standard because of the work that we do. But I think the difference between us and some builders is if there's issues, we actually take care of it.
John Kramer [00:49:35]:
That's the way to stay.
John Kraemer [00:49:36]:
I think a lot of people out there just run from service, and that's going to cost me money and stuff like that, where we feel like that's our next project.
Mark Williams [00:49:44]:
It's an opportunity.
John Kraemer [00:49:45]:
That's our next project coming from that.
Mark Williams [00:49:47]:
Client, how have you handled? And John, you and I talked a little bit about this earlier in the week offline. So a lot of the people that have come on the podcast, especially ones that we've interviewed outside the state of Minnesota, are in builder 20 groups. And I'm really enthralled with. I'm actually going to do my first builder 20 interview here in a couple of months after the builder show. But I was surprised to hear that you guys are not in a builder 20. Have you considered it? Why do you not do it? And how do you get peer review to keep growing? You've obviously built a very successful business. How is it that you get? Is it consultants? Is it other peers that are just kind of more of a private nature? But walk us through that, because a lot of people have found a lot of value in that system. But it doesn't seem like that's a stream that you've taken at this point.
John Kraemer [00:50:31]:
We haven't. I don't know, dad. I mean, you've been doing it for a lot longer than us. Have you had the opportunity to be involved with the builder 20 group and you've decided not to do it, or you've certainly heard of them and probably been invited to them before, too.
John Kramer [00:50:44]:
I've heard of them. I think they're effective. I know they've done really good things for a lot of people. It was just never my deal. I didn't want to take the time to do that, share that kind of stuff. Not that I had anything to hide or whatnot, but it's just never been my style.
Mark Williams [00:51:02]:
Yeah. And I can appreciate that. I mean, people have different natures for myself, I think even the podcast, right. I don't have an issue because I talk like this all the time. So sometimes people say, well, you're worried about recording your voice and all that stuff. You're like, no, I talked to John like this anyway. And I think respecting your nature, like, if you're of more private nature, like owning that, I think that's great. I wanted to ask the question because I found so much value in peer, and John's been great.
Mark Williams [00:51:32]:
I talked probably more to John than I do with Jeff. But sometimes you're struggling with something, hey, what about this? And John, you've always been great. You're like, yeah, this is how I do it, or this. And maybe it's a generational thing because my dad didn't do a builder 20. I don't even know if you knew what a builder 20 was. But I think it might be a generational thing, too, that I think the younger generations are more apt, and probably because of Instagram and social media and just everything, there's really nothing that's hidden. So why not just share and kind of raise everything up so it'll be interesting to see kind of as the future evolves, what value you guys even find in it.
John Kraemer [00:52:05]:
Yeah, I don't know. I won't speak for Jeff, but I can see myself being interested in it someday because, yeah, I'm millennial, generation old millennial. Call myself a zennial, which you would be too, right? 43. But I mean, sharing information and learning from other like minded people and people in the industry, I think it can't hurt. Right? But you're talking about this generation and social media and the amount of information out there. One example would be like, remember back in the day with Artisan home tour, luxury home tour, stuff like that. No pictures allowed.
Mark Williams [00:52:41]:
I know it seems so crazy now.
John Kraemer [00:52:42]:
It's like, yeah, come on in. Bring your video camera.
Mark Williams [00:52:45]:
To be fair, it was posing for. To be fair, I thought that was crazy. Even when it happened, I remember I was like, because that was artisan's been around eleven years.
John Kraemer [00:52:54]:
Yeah, something like that.
Mark Williams [00:52:55]:
But even in general, I mean, your young brand Internet's out there, and I'm just not someone that's real private anyway. But I remember, actually, this is years ago, my mom was an interior designer, and she went into, I won't say the builder's name, but they went into a builder's home, and this was back way before Internet. And she just had her camera, and she just liked to take pictures of people's homes. And then she'd look at it, and this builder tried to take her camera and tried to break it. She actually had to report him to the builders association, and they said, don't worry, Mrs. Williams will take care of this. He has a reputation of going after photographers, and it's just hilarious. I'm thinking of, my mom is like the most innocent.
Mark Williams [00:53:28]:
What in the world? What are you afraid of? Exactly. And so I think when people start understanding, and to your opposite point now, where it's like, no, you invite people like, please, not only do I want you to take photo and video, but I want you to post it as much as possible, because it can only help your brand.
John Kraemer [00:53:43]:
Don't forget to tag us.
Mark Williams [00:53:44]:
Yeah, don't forget to tag us, or we'll find you.
John Kraemer [00:53:46]:
Yeah, but no, I still remember this is probably 8910 years ago. Another builder called me and there was a website that was becoming popular where you could post your photos and answer questions and stuff like that. And I had another builder appear, call and say, why are you doing that? Why are you on it? Tell me the benefit of it. Aren't you like giving away your trade secrets? And I'm like, no. I mean, it's no different than having somebody being on your website. But now you get to actually interact with people, answer questions for them, ask them questions, they can learn more about your business and you can actually interact with these people rather than them just looking at your website. So it's a generational thing, probably, how have you viewed?
Mark Williams [00:54:35]:
So I'll maybe ask you this question after I tell you what you told me. I think five, six years ago, I don't know if you remember this conversation I called you and Instagram was just becoming kind of its thing. And I remember asking you about, how often do you post on Instagram? What's your thoughts on it? Do you remember what you told me?
John Kraemer [00:54:54]:
I don't. Don't get me in trouble.
Mark Williams [00:54:57]:
No, I'm just curious if you'd said it to a lot of people or just me.
John Kraemer [00:55:00]:
No, it'll ring a bell.
Mark Williams [00:55:02]:
No, it's a really good advice. You told me at that time. And Instagram has changed a lot in the last five years, but at that time you said, that is going to be my client five years from now. I've repeated that a lot. I think it's really great future looking advice. And now it's a lot different. Now it's your client right now. I personally have not gotten clients directly from Instagram today, but I talk like, for instance, we had Katie and Jesse Cath on from Jcath.
Mark Williams [00:55:29]:
She gets 100% of her clients off of Instagram. That's incredible. And anyway, the point is, you were right. I mean, ultimately, the people that were consuming that content were in their late twenty s and early thirty s. And now five years later, they're in the mid 30s, early forty s, and now they're entering kind of the time to build that family home or whatever it is. Speak to us a little bit about some of your marketing strategies. Like which ones do you find even though you get 90% are, I guess, referrals? Maybe you don't need even to do it. But where do you find the most interaction from clients in a way that actually leads to meaningful business?
John Kraemer [00:56:04]:
Yeah, that's a good question. Of course, obviously doing a good job for people and referrals, that's still our number one networking and having good relationships with architects, the design community, and interior designers and architects. And then from a social media perspective, I would say it's probably Instagram. Everything's so muddy out there with all the messaging we get every day. I mean, you sit on the couch and send reels back and forth. My wife and I sit on the couch and send reels back and forth to each other. I mean, you're seeing so many messages every single day, so it's crazy. There's just so much out there.
John Kraemer [00:56:44]:
But I would say Instagram, I would say Facebook pages. Facebook is kind of the older demographic, which is a lot of our clients, which is great. I've found that Facebook's spam filters are challenging. So Facebook's kind of annoying to me, honestly. But Instagram is really good to be able to post and interact and share what other people are posting about you. And then in terms of print advertising, print advertising is one of the least forms of media that are measurable. It's measurable if somebody comes in and has your ad in a magazine and says, look, I found you in this magazine for us.
John Kramer [00:57:28]:
Happened once.
John Kraemer [00:57:29]:
Yeah, it's happened more than that, but, yeah, two, three times throughout the years. But it's really for us, keeping your brand out there. We focus on quarterly publications that are high quality and centered around homes and design and fashion and stuff like that. Stuff our clients like.
Mark Williams [00:57:51]:
I think it speaks a little bit to Gary's point where you were getting referral, but the people already knew who you were. I think that speaks a little bit to the branding. I think it's so hard to find your exact ROI on a specific magazine or event. It's kind of like all of it is your brand and how you represent both yourself in public networking events. It kind of all goes together.
John Kraemer [00:58:08]:
Yeah. I think a challenge with social media, too, is how often to post, because like I said, there's so much messaging out there. I mean, you could post something every single day. And some companies do, some of our peers do, and we kind of try to toe that line of having ourselves out there, but not bombarding our followers and bugging our clients. So that's why we don't post.
Mark Williams [00:58:33]:
As much as I think I've noticed something, too, about your feed in particular. I feel like you do a really good, and I'm guessing it's intentional that you focus mostly on the build and the architecture and not that you don't celebrate your people. Obviously, you do in person. But I feel like your feed is mostly based on the beautiful homes that you build. Is that accurate?
John Kraemer [00:58:53]:
Yeah.
Mark Williams [00:58:53]:
And intentional?
John Kraemer [00:58:54]:
Yeah, it is intentional. It's accurate. It's a real cool twilight photo of a home we built on Lake Minnetonka. Right? People like that, it's eye candy. They save it. It gets people talking about it. So we really do celebrate the exterior and interior architecture a lot. And always, you mentioned our teammates.
John Kraemer [00:59:16]:
We always are very intentional about crediting all of the teammates on our projects. Architect, designers, landscape architects, photographers, everything. And then they share it on their pages.
Mark Williams [00:59:30]:
Now, you guys have done. I know, it's just because we're recording here in Excelsior and you guys know your development side down the road. And that's another podcast episode all by itself, I'm guessing. But early on, you and your dad, Gary, were doing bathroom remodels, new homes, remodel. The whole gambit to what you are today. I've seen you guys do some condo complexes. I don't know if you guys have done any sort of development. I don't know where the family is on the Hackamore brewery.
Mark Williams [00:59:59]:
Tell us a little bit about some of the other things that where you go with your talents and what has sort of attracted you into. Are you doing more development? Is that just right? Opportunity seizes itself, so you take it. Walk us through how you incorporate that into your business strategy.
John Kraemer [01:00:15]:
I'll let you take this, but again, really, no business plan. We kind of just walk into opportunities and decide if it's a good opportunity or not.
Mark Williams [01:00:22]:
Yeah.
John Kramer [01:00:23]:
We have not done much development at all. Did a great condo development in Wisetta and started on one here in Excelsior. That doesn't look like it's probably going to fly, but we pretty much just stuck to, we're a construction company and that's what we do. And we haven't gotten into the architecture side of things or interior designers on staff or that type of thing. We like to work with a lot of professionals, which, it's more collaborative for our clients, it's a better way to serve them. And everything doesn't look the same. You go to our website and everything looks different. There's no real pattern to what our houses look like.
John Kraemer [01:01:08]:
Yeah. You asked about Hackamore brewing. I mean, I'll touch on that real quick. That probably comes back to more of what we talked about earlier. My entrepreneurial side. I like businesses, love our family business. That was just an opportunity that I had with some buddies to invest in something other than the family business. And it's been really fun.
John Kraemer [01:01:26]:
Been open for, geez. In April it'll be a year already.
Mark Williams [01:01:30]:
That's in Chanhasson.
John Kraemer [01:01:30]:
It's in Chan, yeah. And it's going how?
Mark Williams [01:01:35]:
Outside of work. I mean, I know Gary likes to travel and golf. Jeff, I've seen you hit some pretty long balls at the golf opens, but what do you guys like to do when you're not building?
John Kraemer [01:01:47]:
Yeah.
John Kramer [01:01:47]:
I mean, my biggest thing for hobbies is golf, for sports. And then my most recent hobby in the last handful of years has been being a taxi service for my kids.
Mark Williams [01:01:57]:
To sports. You should just stop with kids. Just be like, I'm an Uber driver. And then. What's your hand? Are you like. It's just for my kids, actually. How old are your kids?
John Kramer [01:02:06]:
It's been an absolute blast. I have a ten year old boy and a seven year old daughter. And so just last few years, getting into more the competitive type sports. So son's playing baseball and hockey, daughter's playing soccer, dance basketball. So just running every night. But we're having an absolute blast. And the kids are having fun. They love the sports and activities and try to golf as much as I can in the summer.
John Kraemer [01:02:32]:
Jeffrey and I are leading pretty similar family lives. I have a boy and a girl as well, 13 year old daughter. So that's great. Going through puberty, middle school. Today's Valentine's Day. She made a valentine for a crush that she has.
Mark Williams [01:02:47]:
Oh, boy. Isn't she grounded till she's 30? That's what I did to my daughter. She's grounded.
John Kraemer [01:02:51]:
I'm eager to go home and see how that exchange went today. And then my son will be ten next month, and he's competitive. Travel, baseball, squirt hockey. Mallory, my daughter is horse riding. Well, I tell everyone, if you want to save money, don't let your daughter or kid get into horse riding. That's crazy. And she's also a competitive gymnast three days a week as well. But hobies.
John Kraemer [01:03:20]:
I like to golf. I'm not as good as Jeff. I hit the ball really far, but.
Mark Williams [01:03:25]:
Just not down the right.
John Kraemer [01:03:26]:
Fair. Yeah, that's about it. And then I'm just kind of a dork when I still collect baseball cards.
Mark Williams [01:03:33]:
Oh, do you really? Yeah, I did a lot. I mean, it was funny because someone just sent me. Talk about Instagram. Someone sent me yesterday. I was a big Ken Griffith Jr. Guy. I mean, I must have 100 Ken Griffith Jr. Cards, but I probably haven't saved baseball cards, probably since I was, like, twelve, so not anything current.
Mark Williams [01:03:50]:
So are you, like, how active are you?
John Kraemer [01:03:51]:
Yeah, active. I work a lot and do family stuff a lot and kind of just decided that's cool. I needed something else to do just as a hobby. But no, we open packs with my son, buy graded cards of players that I like and keep them in my office.
Mark Williams [01:04:09]:
That's really cool. Yeah, I like that. How about you, Gary?
John Kramer [01:04:11]:
Baseball cards?
Mark Williams [01:04:13]:
Yeah, baseball cards. Or mostly just traveling. Where do you like to travel? Do you, like, know?
John Kramer [01:04:17]:
All over this time of year. I like going to warm places.
Mark Williams [01:04:23]:
Minnesota is pretty warm, but I had.
John Kramer [01:04:25]:
A lot of know. Italy, France, Great Britain. Haven't hit Australia or Africa yet, but those are on the bucket list.
Mark Williams [01:04:36]:
Did you travel with the kids when they were little? Was that something that you sort of instilled as a family or know?
John Kramer [01:04:40]:
We traveled some, but in the summers, all three sons played competitive travel baseball. So we actually did a fair amount of travel with that in itself. But, yeah, these guys, too are really good traveling with their kids. John didn't mention that, but they go on a really cool family vacation every year that I'm actually kind of jealous of that I didn't do that with you. I feel like a bad father.
Mark Williams [01:05:04]:
Do you get invited?
John Kraemer [01:05:05]:
No, we do a family road trip every summer. And this is really my wife because she always says, you only have so many summers with the kids. So we've been really big on. This summer will be our fifth family road trip that we've done. And you usually go somewhere for ten days and drive around and hit several states and national parks.
Mark Williams [01:05:31]:
What age did you start doing that at?
John Kraemer [01:05:33]:
So what age was I.
Mark Williams [01:05:35]:
No, the kids. The kids.
John Kraemer [01:05:37]:
So we started five years ago. So Mallory would have been eight and Sam would have been four. Five.
Mark Williams [01:05:43]:
The reason I bring it up is you guys know Stephen Yock. And so he told me something recently that, and I forget when he said he did it. I think maybe when his kids are in middle school or high school. But they stopped kind of doing the whole Christmas exchange deal. And even today now his kids are all grown up, late 20s, early thirty s. And rather than exchanging gifts, they set a family budget. And then his boys planned like a two week or ten day trip right after Christmas. And that's their family time, and they're still doing it together.
Mark Williams [01:06:12]:
They just went to Norway, this last deal. And so it reminded me, and the kids are London. I do like doing gifts, but it reminded me a lot because we traveled a lot with our parents or my parents when I was a kid. And so just something that's something I want to instill with them. And my littlest is just turns four tomorrow, actually, and so they're still a little bit early. That man. Being in a car for long, long periods of time is not something I probably want to do, but they're not too far away from it.
John Kraemer [01:06:35]:
Yeah, sure.
Mark Williams [01:06:37]:
Well, thank you guys very much for coming on. If those people listening want to reach out to you and know more about you, where would you like them to go?
John Kraemer [01:06:45]:
Yeah, well, our website is WW dot jkandsuns. That's jkan dsons.com. That's the best way to see the projects that we do, learn about our business, our staff, and reach out to us if they need anything at all.
Mark Williams [01:07:02]:
Sounds great. We'll have everything tagged in the show notes. And thanks again for coming on, guys. Appreciate your time. Thank you.
John Kraemer [01:07:06]:
Thanks for having us.
Mark Williams [01:07:07]:
Mark, thanks for listening to the Curious Builder podcast. If you like what you listen to, please give us a five star rating and write us a review. It really means a lot. It's a great way for us to just understand what you like about the podcast and what we can keep doing. So like and review. And please share with your friends and family. Find out more@curiousbuilderpodcast.com.
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