Episode 59 - Balancing Act: Family, Health, and Building Success with Caleb MacDonald
Episode #59 | Caleb MacDonald | Family, Health, and Building Success
In this insightful episode, Caleb McDonald from KingsRidge Building Group joins us to chat about balancing a thriving building business with family life and personal wellness. We talk about the challenges and rewards of maintaining work-life harmony, scaling a compassionate team culture, and Caleb’s passion for creating beautiful, unique homes while staying grounded in health and mindfulness practices. Don’t miss this hearty blend of industry expertise and personal growth tales!
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About Caleb MacDonald
The road to KingsRidge began when Caleb was young, watching his father build custom homes. The thrill of creating a strong and beautiful home from an empty hole in the earth captured his imagination. While still a teenager, Caleb founded KingsRidge, taking on his first landscaping and renovation projects. Over 18 years later, quality and craftsmanship have become the staple of our work.
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Mark D. Williams
Today on the curious builder podcast, we had Caleb McDonald from Canada near Toronto. And we had reconnected, we met a year and a half ago. And it was awesome to catch up with him so much as businesses growing. I think the thing I appreciated the most was just really talking about how you prioritize your health and wellness and really balancing your family life as long along with your team's life. And we really got in pretty deep on some of the little life hacks that Caleb really prioritizes from kind of a deep dive on journaling, as well as really setting boundaries. I think you're gonna really enjoy this episode. And it's going to not only be one that helps you push your you know, pushes your your building career to another level, but I think it's going to challenge you on some personal things that I hope everyone finds really helpful. So now without further ado, Caleb McDonald, right though hopefully they can make something work with that.
Welcome to curious builder Podcast. I'm Mark Williams, your host today I'm joined with Caleb McDonald, with King Ridge building group out of Canada. Thanks for coming on. Caleb. Yeah, boy. Glad to be here. Yeah, buddy. I thought it would be fun to talk about how we first met I can't believe it's been a year and a half since you and I were running the beaches of California at the contractor coalition. Anyway, you and I both were out at the contractor coalition at Huntington Beach, I think what was it the fall of 22? Yeah, that's right. And anyway, we didn't know each other beforehand. But we got up and we've met in the lobby and went for a run and you and I still texted back and forth. Even to this day, because it was like 40 mile an hour wind like 530 in the morning sand was blowing up off of it into our eyes and it was sort of like hailing it was miserable.
Speaker 1 1:51
Yeah, I thought California you know coming from Canada I'm gonna put my tank top on my nice short shorts and get a rip in. Net you in the lobby and I was like, let's go and you're definitely game and then we both got met with the opposite of what we expected. It was like frigid, or like shaking and running. Five miles up and down the sandy beach but definitely made some memorable moments that we read a song
Mark D. Williams<br> 2:20
every every reminded me of the scene from a Forrest Gump. Remember when Lieutenant Dan is up in the crow's nest in the hurricane? He's like, Yeah, this storm. It was like it was so stupid to be running. But you and I just kept egging each other on. Well, I'm not quitting if you're not quitting. Yeah,
Speaker 1 2:34
exactly. I think if we didn't have each other, we're definitely going to the gym. Oh,
Mark D. Williams<br> 2:39
that's funny, actually. Speaking of which, because you and I kind of bonded over the running you're much faster runner than I am. I'm just stupid than you. And my. But it's interesting. I feel like there's a stereotype with builders, right? Like, you know, they're fat, lazy, hairy, flannel, beer drinking builders. And yet so many builders I meet our athletes or you see him early in the morning before these, you know, builder 20 meetings or in this space, you know, case the contractor the coalition and you know, people are getting their workouts in and doing their thing and you feel like that's a stereotype that needs to change or do you think that stereotype is still real? It's just that the people that we end up meeting are don't fit it? Yeah, I
Speaker 1 3:17
think you find your like mindedness. You know, who's gonna fly across the country, get up early in the morning, you're gonna find who is. So yeah, the gym was packed the other day we went in and didn't decide to go get pelted by sea salt. But you find who is like you and you kind of get alongside those people and have greater connections and deeper relationships. Because I do believe there are some beerbelly people out there, but they're definitely not going after it in the same light or lens we are.
Mark D. Williams<br> 3:52
Right, I feel like in the in the day and age we're in as well. I feel like wellness and health and taking care of yourself as much more prevalent than it maybe ever has been. And not that people don't like to, you know, wind down and enjoy. You know, however they want to enjoy their life. But I feel like more and more people and maybe they're more quiet about it. You know, I talk a lot about running just because it's a huge part of my life. And I think you and I will chat a little bit about, you know, you in life balance and work balance. I mean, I feel like if you're not, if you don't equal out the other side, you know, it's not sustainable, especially over you know, 20 3040 year career. You know, if you work all the time, you're gonna burn out.
Speaker 1 4:28
Yeah, and that's kind of where I started prioritizing it. I did go through like a burnout season where you're like ramping to build, build, build, build, build, and then you're like, Well, what am I going to give the team I'm depleted and that's where I started like, time blocking my my activities and you know, all of those sorts of things.
Mark D. Williams<br> 4:50
Yeah, I mean, I was gonna save this for the end but since we're on it now when we will do the introduction to King Ridge at the end, let me let's I mean, that's how you and I sort of bonded United stay in touch kind of, you know, hey, this is a race I'm signing up for and I know you're big into hockey, you know, let's talk, why don't you tell the audience a little bit? You know, just briefly about yourself, but let's talk or I guess let's start with, how do you balance owning a business? And how do you balance? You know, kind of with the, you know, the long goal in mind? And how have you navigated that in your career? Yeah, I
Speaker 1 5:21
think the the number one ingredient for for my setup is the best wife ever. letting me go out at nine o'clock or six in the morning, you know, I have four kids. So life's busy, we're always moving and you know, on to the next adventure, but time blocking it saying like, Hey, I prioritize, you know, my mental health, my physical health, and my family time. So just working those in as like, they were an important meeting, like being on this podcast, like it's time stamped, it's in my calendar. And I, you know, I'm not playing eight hours a day of hockey, which would be, you know, a dream of mine Go Pro. But I am playing like, three, four times a week, and then I'm running three, four times a week. And that just like, gives me more energy to give back to my team and to pour back into the best version of myself. And I think that's, you know, what you have to kind of navigate is what's bringing me energy, what's bringing me life? And what are the things that fill my cup up so that I have something to give to people when they come to me with problems or scenarios that you're not, you know, looking for, or, or happy to deal with?
Mark D. Williams<br> 6:35
Now, it sounds like, how long have you been building now, Caleb?
Speaker 1 6:39
This is our 18th year in business. Okay, so
Mark D. Williams<br> 6:43
we're almost identical when we started then. So you were 2007 2006? Somewhere in there? Six. Okay. How did you start that way? I mean, I feel like for me, personally, I've got, you know, three kids, I'm 43. I mean, I was always an active athlete. But I didn't really understand the balance early on in my career. And then I suppose it changed. You know, once obviously, when you're single, it's pretty easy to navigate those things. Once you get married, I feel like that and start having children. I feel like that's when the discipline really kicks in
Speaker 1 7:14
planning a whole nother level. You just see my wife's calendar that she sends me and I just say, Yes, where am I going next? It's like a spreadsheet on steroids. Like, we got two girls in competitive dance, and then two boys in hockey, and their travel teams, and I'm playing hockey and on teams and running and we're both into fitness. So it's definitely a mission. You know, it was awesome being single just crushing. You know, I started at a team crashing sunup sundown just long days, and you can handle that. And then you get married, and you still have lots of bandwidth of time. But then when you start adding kids and you know, getting woken up in the night, by crying, or whatever else might happen with four children, I'll let you imagine that. And then you know, you have to get up and show up for your team in the morning and be the best version of yourself. You really have to protect, you know, what you're putting yourself into in your diet, your health, you know, I love like cold plunges and cold showers and just different challenges that don't only benefit you physically, but mentally, like in those hard times, how are you going to react when stuff hits the fan, and people are like looking at you to be, you know, the model of what needs to be said or done. And they're looking for guidance, like I got this problem, this client is doing that, or this sub tray didn't show up, or, you know, we experienced shortages or delays, especially with the clientele we serve. It's a very high level client that's expecting a 10 out of 10 performance all the time, which is not always obtainable. But I think the biggest goal is to have that at the forefront, as this is our goal, we're going to do the best we're going to tell the truth. And we're going to show up on time. So if we do those things, we put our best foot forward and you know, you're gonna go have peaks and valleys, like that's just life.
Mark D. Williams<br> 9:17
Now looking at your photo on your website, you had about 13 people on your team, and they look pretty young. And I know you've mentioned before that you know a number of them are maybe on hockey teams as well. where I'm going with this question is how do you foster that sense of community and the things that's important to you, but also enable your team to also have that space to value the things that you value? And I say that with you know, I mean obviously getting up really early. You know before the kids get up I'm guessing is one of the things that you do and obviously I am deal but you know obviously a lot of the in a lot of the trades you know a lot of those early meetings are at 630 or seven or 730. I know personally that doesn't work for my schedule if I was a project manager, my life would be a lot different than being the owner of the company. And the people on my team actually don't have young kids are all I would say middle age and their kids are growing up. So it's not really an issue that they have to deal with. But I imagine just looking at your team, that you probably have many on your team that are either single just getting married, have younger kids, how are you navigating and encouraging them to take the space and time that they need to, you know, follow through on, you know, protecting their mental health?
Speaker 1 10:28
Yeah, I think the big one we learned was, we used to work like six, seven days a week. And now we're five days a week, we start at 730, we end at five on the job. And then usually we're at the shop of latest 530. So like time blocking those things, so that some of our you know, guys with kids, and they have kids in competitive sports, they'll leave early on a Thursday to go watch their kid. And we give space for that, we like that we want you to be healthy, active join teams, like I play hockey with a bunch of the guys that are in the office, you know, there's 20 of us now total. And some of them are working remotely, some are in you know, there's 10 of us just at the office, and then there's 10 Guys meeting at the shop every day. So we have a yard with 10 acres, lots of storage, and all of us are at different levels of life, like I'm now a little older than most of them, you know, you got lots of guys, we just had a hockey game for our Christmas party. So we were going at it with each other, it's just so fun to see like guys in their 40s to guys in their, you know, late teens just coming after you and you know getting back at you for not getting what they needed on time or given them the job they wanted or whatever it may be, we had a good office, exterior interior rivalry going. And I think that building that culture of mutual respect for each other, is the greatest thing you can put your time and energy and into. So that's been, you know, definitely beneficial. And it it varies like some guys aren't even in a relationship. So they have more time to spend and they just want to work, they just want to crush hours. And then other guys have other priorities of, you know, coaching their kids softball teams, and that's where they want to spend their time. So we don't have like, you have to work 100 hours a week, it's like, we need you to show up these five days, if you want to go a little earlier to make your kids events, by all means, you know, it can't be every day. But we definitely leave more bandwidth than most companies for
Mark D. Williams<br> 12:46
that. So two things on that one is it's we're recording this here at the end of March. So you guys just had your Christmas party, the last week of March.
Speaker 1 12:54
Yeah, so we just we just had it in end of December. But we had like a very competitive hockey game. You know, it's nice. There's enough of us now. It was great. We made some of the guys that didn't want to play and girls come and watch and cheer us on and take video. So we have actual footage and live documentation of what happened, not just in our minds of how good we really are. Right? No, it was awesome.
Mark D. Williams<br> 13:24
Have you ever thought about doing like a subcontractor versus King Ridge type of scrimmage once a year?
Speaker 1 13:31
No, we haven't we've talked about doing it more frequently. Like some of the younger guys are like, Come on, let's do this, or put a team together. Some of us do play the thing is some of us live, you know, in different areas. But a good handful of us play weekly together. And it is a lot of fun. Like you you definitely mesh better when you spend so much time together. You
Mark D. Williams<br> 13:53
know, one of the things and this will be a good springboard into the business now is that you and I were chatting a little bit offline, just you know, you have a real passion for building your team. And you know, you went from 13 to 20. And I'd like to talk a little bit about how you've scaled up, you know, when you started and kind of maybe these milestones, as you've added teams and where I want to go with this question is a lot of people talk about culture. And a lot of people, you know, have just recently heard at my builder 20 group, they're talking about having a culture calendar, where you know, you plan out different events, which is fine, but it seems like yours probably happens a lot organically because if you guys are all on the same hockey team, you enjoy each other that much. I mean, I feel like culture is something that's sort of hard. Do you think it's hard to plan for or do you think you just need to create space and then the culture of like minded people sort of organically grows on its own?
Speaker 1 14:41
I think it's a our remedy and mixture in recipe is a bit of both. So we do have plan things like we have a pizza lunch that we do with all the guys and then we have like a family so you bring your family, your kids and this past summer So every summer we do it at the shop. We have 10 acres, we have beanbags cornhole, frisbee toss, we were cracking, we have 10 acres. So we were cracking baseballs into the outfield, and the kids were grabbing them and bringing them back, we had an ice cream truck calm, we had a big pig roast. So we create space with kind of landmark celebrations, kind of like what you would do with Christmas with your own family. And then we have, you know, spontaneous, like, some of the guys will go fishing together and do different events, just out of just enjoying each other's company and, and having that rare, you know, reminiscing on okay, we had a really good team meeting this week, and we were looking at, you know, how can we build relationships deeper or better and, and then they'll just roll with it. And you know, you'll, they'll talk about all we were just playing this sport together or going on this fishing trip or hanging out having, you know, some dinner and wings. I think that's just a byproduct of doing, you know, your, your celebrations? Well, when you do get together. And maintaining team meetings, those are a vital organ to our operation and have been for 18 years, like, since day one, we've been doing team meetings, you know, and they were definitely not what they are now, you know, you have lots of people back then there was like three or four people. But I think that built me as a leader into something that I'm able to now transfer into leading more people, and I'm a better communicator, a better reader of the room? Like, is there an issue or and kind of digesting all of that at a high level instead of just an immaturity level? That that that comes in play? For sure.
Mark D. Williams<br> 16:51
Has that been a selling asset? I mean, can your clients tell I know you guys are very active in the community. And one of the things I want to talk about a little bit later is just your niche niche in terms of proximity, you work in a fairly small geographical area, as I recall, but before we before we get to that point, I'm curious, like, do your clients know what a tight ship you have in terms of like how the cohesion is so strong? How have you been able to sort of leverage that because I think as an employer and as a business owner, you know, we want culture because of course we care about our people we want them to do good work we'd like them to have obviously opportunity to move up into make money and sustain their family. But then we also of course would would love it to not only benefit our own company but also see it as a sales point like hey, our clients can look at this and be like wow, we want to be a part of this if if their employees are this passionate about being around each other imagine I mean they have to love their work and they love their people I want to work with we're looking at work with this company how have you been able to to message that to you know to your audience
Speaker 1 17:53
Yeah, it's it's definitely benefited us the best way we get it out there is through Instagram we have a good size presence because we only cover a 30 kilometer radius is definitely less than miles. So we have a 30 minute radius that we service and we I would say our number one compliment is our team like on our Google reviews on our like thank you letters from clients is these guys were amazing the nicest guys you know our painters are plumbers electricians we've been using all of them for you know 510 15 years like our plumber we've been using for my dad used to use him like so 20 plus years we've been using him directly so I think those relationships and the guys and then combining both in one does go a long way and we bring people behind the scenes with Instagram you know we'll do like we're driving to the job and this is why we're doing it this is how we're doing it and not just explaining well this is another living room and it looks amazing. Use Kingsbridge it's, here's the process this is why it's clean. This is why we clean it this is why we do this and asking that question why and hearing back okay, well what questions are we getting from clients time and time again, we're going to answer those questions. I think a big part of it is people need to interact on social media and give us feedback and what we're doing well what they want to see and and then we can bring that to the market and be successful in it.
Mark D. Williams<br> 19:32
Are you empowering I know you're mostly camera facing on your Instagram and at least the stuff that I've seen in kind of doing your tutorial job walk throughs how often are your people either posting to your stories or kind of posting their point of view and how often are you gathering video from them? They send it to you and then you modify and edit it versus you going and handling all the first person you know kind of direction a video
Speaker 1 19:58
Yeah, like We have a designer that also does videos, my wife does some videos, and then we have some of our lead guys will show how a trim piece fits together. And then we'll just take more of the content from the client, and then create, you know why we hanger this LDL this way, or why we use the steel beam instead of an LDL, just our our content in general, we do have a high level of output, you know, for that. So we, we can't just use anyone's little pictures or cameras on our social media platform. But we definitely take that. And then we have, you know, a list of things that we want to target because of the questions we're getting, or the emails or the concerns or the, you know, why you did the this way or that way? And what are the pros and cons.
Mark D. Williams<br> 20:51
Let's talk a little bit about your company. Now just so people we kind of did this interview backwards, but that was my choice. Walk us a little bit of you know, who you are and how you got into building. And I mean, you build new homes you renovate and the landscaping pool is a pretty unique aspect. I don't know too many builders that especially have the pool side of it. I interviewed another builder down in San Diego Dagan Koffler a couple of months ago, and he had the three and service but he didn't he didn't do pools the way you do. Let's talk a little bit about, you know, the different, you know, operations that you handle, and maybe some of the percentages, you know, what percent you do have new home, what percent of remodel and you know, are you handling all landscaping and pool work? In house? I'm kind of curious how it relates to your overall company structure.
Speaker 1 21:36
Yeah. So I would say the model is usually we have like one to two big customers going at a time. And then we'll have about eight Gutten reduce. So that's like LDLs kitchens, bathrooms upstairs, like full floors trim. And then we'll have like two to three landscape projects that are pretty robust. So they have a cabana, fireplace, outdoor kitchen, a whole pool. I think from day one, I always had a yes mentality, like, there's no mountain too big, I'm just going to find a way to run up it. And that kind of progressed us and snowballed us into where we are now as you know, more of a mature company. But at the beginning, it was like doing small jobs. And you said you had a little bit of a bigger job. And I was like No problem. Like if, if the next guy can do it. So can I and I just you know, learned read, studied and found the skills and ask the right questions to the right people. And that definitely propelled us forward swiftly. And then collaborating with like architects, designers, like those are the key things that we're looking for and looking to cultivate. And that have brought in the best projects to date. Our you know, we can't do it alone. A big, you know, accomplishment meant, like building Rome was not built by one human. You know, it takes a team and, you know, well, you know, executed plan to, you know, bring these beautiful custom projects to life. So those are the things that we're seeking after and hunting for and, and really, you know, want to show people what we can do and showcase our abilities on that stage.
Mark D. Williams<br> 23:24
I assume it started with remodeling and new home builds. Is that correct? Yeah,
Speaker 1 23:29
it started with just Reno. So like, lots of little rentos My dad built a lot of like 20,000 square foot home subdivisions named after me and my siblings like big stuff. And I was just young, he got out of the business. And I decided to start Kingsbridge and not get into, you know, he was in the golf business. And I was like, This is what I want to do. I want to create things out of nothing. Like I love seeing something built that was not there. Just by the desire of the client, and then we have the abilities to execute it. It's like the most rewarding thing on planet Earth.
Mark D. Williams<br> 24:06
How when, how is it that you are I think a lot of builders listening are going to be pretty envious of the idea that you can, you know, stay within, you know, roughly 25 mile radius or 30k radius for those north of the border. How, how was it that you're able to stay in such a small niche? I mean, that sounds like I mean, it sounds amazing, both from a logistical standpoint. Also, it reinforces some of your core beliefs we talked about earlier. I mean, if you don't have a long road time, man, you can really get home for dinners. You can kind of shut the operation down. You can really Yeah, it just saves a lot of time. I'm guessing some of that just might be good fortune, or was that always the plan and because you're you in what are you on? You're in Toronto in Toronto?
Speaker 1 24:50
Yeah, just just north but I think the the biggest thing was we did go a little farther. And then once we had kids I was like, I am not spending two hours a day wasting my time in traffic, I was on the tools at the time. And I was just like this can be done better. So I think we just brought our level of execution up. And then just like really honed in and focused on a small bandwidth of, you know, space, but we we prioritize, like I coach, my son's hockey team, I coach, my kids, all of my kids soccer teams. So that takes a lot of energy and time. And so that takes away from the bandwidth that I used to have for just driving around. And then it just makes it like our My office is a kilometer from my house, I can walk there, I can walk to probably five jobs in that area. And then we have five that, you know, I would have to put my running shoes on for, but I could definitely make it there. So we usually have 10 jobs on the go at one time. And we have project managers managing that and all manage some of them. And we have a wicked working system that that is yeah, very dialed in. And we just say no, like, if I say no to the far project, something better is going to come along is our belief and it's been successful so far. So it
Mark D. Williams<br> 26:18
I would assume that the area you're in is probably pretty high net worth or it's a very lucrative area in terms of like the value of the jobs that you're doing are substantial, or I don't think I assume if you were to give advice to other builders, I mean, you can't just decide you want to stay in a small area. I mean, I assume how much of it is fortune, and how in terms of just being in the right place at the right time. And how much of it is, is like, Hey, I'm just this is what I'm gonna do regardless of like,
Speaker 1 26:47
if you live in like a farm town, it's definitely not going to work. But what what I would recommend for anyone trying to like narrow your reach is just set out a kilometer radius, and then just like, decrease over years, like every two years, you just bring it back in, you know, 10 kilometers, 20 kilometers, whatever you know, your reach is right now and just like slowly hone it, you definitely can't go to nothing. I'm not going to take projects that can only walk to in a kilometer. But having that kind of goal and then prioritizing it like we're advertising we're heavily present. Our Instagram following is mainly just this area. So people really know who we are, what we're about. And really focused a lot of time and energy and home shows advertising being present in the community sponsoring teams. We do like turkey drives that will give away food in a lower income area at Christmas time for the last like 15 years. Things like that, that give back to the community we have charities that we will go fix their kitchens and help out. And I think when you're getting back in your local community, you're gonna get back and I'm always a, you know, a believer in you reap what you sow, like what you're putting in the ground, what you're taking care of, is what you're going to actually take in and that's going to be in your storehouse. So
Mark D. Williams<br> 28:18
I love we're having our time and night. Yeah, I love that I assume to your referrals are probably off the charts high as well. Exactly. Like
Speaker 1 28:25
we have repeats like, like we have had a client in this week. I think it's his fourth project. They're all very big projects on his property. And the versatility of our team is like we did his pool. Then we did a huge cabana in the front. flagstone walkways, and then we did a bunch of bathrooms, and now we're doing an addition. So it's like, we service that client as if you know, they're our only client and they are very valuable to us because we can burn any bridges. Like even we've had some scenarios where sub trades or clients just deal wrongly with us. I would rather just like pay them shut the door. I'm definitely not going to deal with you anymore. But I can't have you talking badly about us. And we'll go above and beyond to save that, you know that is king in our in our line of work. It's Trust is everything
Mark D. Williams<br> 29:25
and is that trade partner you're referring to or maybe a client you're referring to there. We
Speaker 1 29:30
had a couple of clients just like using abuse. It's like you go to Costco, you fill your cart, and then you walk out the door and you have another card and the person's like, Hey, you got to pay for the other card. They're like no, I don't like yeah, you do like you put all of that in your cart. So we've had a couple of scenarios like that and you know, it grows your patience, it grows your understanding and it grows your policies and procedures and people definitely like to take advantage of others and I am a firm believer that you know what you reap, you're going to sow. So I'm going to choose to, you know, move past it and learn and then go to the next but not dwell on it and get all bitter and remorseful over it. Have
Mark D. Williams<br> 30:14
you ever had a client sort of weaponize your reputation against you? In in what I mean by that is, you know, Hey, Caleb, you have an amazing reputation. You know, you're you do such a great job, I would have expected you to do this, that or another thing, or, you know, or the obviously the, you know, it's not truly blackmail. I learned the other day what this actually means, but like, we would colloquially refer to blackmail as like Caleb, if you don't do this, yeah. And then I'm going to say that that's actually I learned from Allah that actual blackmail is where someone would extort you to do something illegal for money, that's blackmail, but actually telling someone that if you don't do well, is enough to block. Yeah, I mean, we would say it's blackmail, but it's actually mapped by the law. Have you ever had that scenario? Because you're in such a small community? And so how do you handle that when someone tries to replicate it basically tries to weaponize your reputation.
Speaker 1 31:04
Yeah, it's case by case basis. And I think you, I believe that you only get what you can take. So I believe, you know, if I have 50 pounds on my back, I am able to carry it. So whatever problem is coming at me, I believe that it's a lesson to be learned. So, you know, we have our Terry on, which is our governing body of building in Canada, and Ontario. And, you know, the regulation is like a paint defect or a mudding defect, you have to stand four feet from the wall. Well, we have clients like putting sticky tabs, and they literally have like a magnifying glass, and they're like, half a centimeter from the wall. Those types of people, they have their own issues, I don't want to judge them, I don't know what their life experience has been. And I'm just going to deal with them the best that I know how, and then I'm going to try to move on to the next and pray that we get a better client experience. But those are going to happen. You know, we live in a world where we're not perfect, they're not perfect, and we're coming together, and we are disrupting their lives, like we are blowing things up and tearing things out and making a mess, cleaning it up. And there's going to be obstacles in that. So I think it's all just chalked up to doing your best and then trying to, you know, uphold that. At the end of the day, I
Mark D. Williams<br> 32:34
think I think what's hard about that particular topic is as a conscientious person, that it like, I care that I have a good reputation, but not for the sake of a good reputation. I care that I have a good reputation, because I want to do the right thing. And I if that makes sense. And I think what happens is is like when people would act that way or sort of prey upon your good conscience is it's, it's really toxic. And it's sort of, you know, I'd like to think that I have a pretty strong mental fortitude. I mean, half the reason I work out and run and whatever right is to create that balance to deal with this kind of thing. And, you know, regardless of who you are, you know, if you ever had something where it's like, you were carrying a weight you weren't aware of you just mentioned 50 pounds. But you know, it's kind of like I remember years ago, we had a cabin in Montana. And I remember my dad put a bunch of rocks in my backpack, classic dad move, I can't wait to do it on my kids. And we got to the top and and I never knew we took out our sandwiches and I had like 15 pounds of rocks in my backpack. And he and he just chuckled and he's like, Well, I had to do something to slow you down, I guess. But my point in saying it is that I feel like sometimes we carry late and stress, whether it's a being a dad, a business owner, a human, I think everyone deals with us to some level. And then at some point, that weight is removed, and you didn't realize you were carrying it. What advice would you have for for like self reflection? What have you found helpful to sort of, like, get a get an almost eyes on your own life? I mean, I assume it's Well, I can answer the question for you. I'll let you Yeah,
Speaker 1 34:07
I do do some key things that I would say are fire for success. And I wake up 550 In the morning, I'll read for an hour and really dial in my day
Mark D. Williams<br> 34:22
doing it what are you what are you reading? I'm
Speaker 1 34:25
reading proverbs. You know, I have some good books. I'm reading the Bible. Really like honing in you know, so that I I'm, you know, responsible for my actions for the day and really honing in my ability to to succeed and to be a leader and to show up in what I need to bring to the team and to be successful. And then the other thing would be
Mark D. Williams<br> 34:57
what was the question what the question was like, basically How do you have either? And I think, an outlaw comment in it. Yeah, but how do you how do you how do you how do people, because I just mentioned like, basically, we don't always realize the way we still hearing self reflection like these other people, is it meditation? You know, I'm guessing it's a little bit of everything. But I'm just asking you specifically, what, what are some things that have sort of helped you through your career to sort of get kind of like an out of body experience to look at yourself and be like, Whoa, I need to lay that burden down. That's a burden I shouldn't be carrying, because it's not meant for me to carry? Yeah,
Speaker 1 35:34
so I do. Once a month, I'll do like, I'll jump on a train or jump in the car and grab a coffee shop out of my town, out of my, you know, pressures. And I'll just sit down and I'll journal, I'll think of creative ideas, I'll think of reflect on, you know, how was our team meetings? We have lead team meetings with our higher up, people, how did that go? What went well, what could have been improved on? What do we really want to be hunting after in this next season of business? And I think those have been clutched for me in terms of that higher level, like zoning out like in Stephen Covey's book seven habits, he talks about like zoning in and then zoning out and zooming. So you get that perspective, of high level, low level mid level, those kind of building blocks, and, and I think reading books, like I'm reading my desk right now, this guy, just fire. You know, he has a great book on teams, I've read his other books, the ideal team player, and just like those things, building up your understanding of how to be a great leader, how to be a great friend how to be a great dad, husband. You know, it all has to work together, or one parts gonna be lacking.
Mark D. Williams<br> 37:01
One of the things I wanted to mention here for those that can't see what you just held up, can you read the title of that book?
Speaker 1 37:07
Yeah, this The Five Dysfunctions of a Team.
Mark D. Williams<br> 37:11
Okay. Where I was going with this is, I love what you just said about the one day a month away that you probably plan in your calendar, it's probably sacred, is it really interesting, the mechanics of this is that a half a day, a full day, it's a coffee shop, you're going for like a long run. And then you sit down, like, talk to me about this journal and talk to me about your process.
Speaker 1 37:31
So it'll either be usually it's on a Friday, those days just work best for just planning purposes. And I'll just go either to Toronto, I'll take a train or I'll jump in my car and go to a different town nearby with like a cracking little coffee shop, I'll sit down, bring a journal, so that I don't get my phone just alerting me of every email and texts and calls and distracting me and I'll just digest I'll have like a theme that I really want to focus on or, or I'll get the theme through the process. And I'll just journal Okay, well, what was the last month? Like? How did it go? Was it successful? Did we did we lean forward into what we were going after? And did we gain momentum? Or are we just standing still, and just like watching traffic go by? And, you know, the the biggest thing nowadays is like people just like scrolling on their phones, like, you know, Why is that guy in the Porta Potty for an hour and a half? It's just we are we are consumed with inaction. We just want to consume Well, what is the opposite is action. So if I want to move forward, and I want to be successful in something, I need to put that thing down that's creating that inaction and I'm just, you know, going into lala land and autopilot, and I call it getting out of autopilot for me, like when I pick my kids up when I walk into the door of the company, am I like present? Or am I just going through the motions like, you know how you end up home one day and you're like, That was scary. Like, I don't even know how I made it through the front door. But I did and thank God, I didn't die. But we are so prone with all of the avenues of information to just like go into autopilot and check out like, one guy I follow is like use your other hand to brush your teeth and like simple little tricks and hacks like have a cold shower that will get you going in the morning and like little things that I use to to be the best version of what I can bring to the team and
Mark D. Williams<br> 39:48
do you are you out of curiosity? Do you journal every day? Or do you just journal once a month? And then my second question is are you is this a handwritten journal or are you typing this in?
Speaker 1 39:56
I do a bit of typing but mainly Hey, handwritten, and I do journal every morning. So at 550 in the morning, I'm journaling. And then I usually do like half of, you know, a page or a page in the morning. And then I'll digest the day, a half a page or a page. And I,
Mark D. Williams<br> 40:14
I met someone the other day that would really encourage us to our group, we were in a networking group, and this, this individual had has, you know, really promoted. How long have you been journaling, like that?
Speaker 1 40:25
I've been journaling. So I was a youth pastor, like, when I was 18. So as long as I've had Kingsbridge and I've been journaling since then, you know, a bit more frequently throughout the years, you know, like babies took a little break on on how frequently I was doing it, but I was still keeping it up. And then I've, I actually have an alarm in my to dues so that I do it every day.
Mark D. Williams<br> 40:52
Are you? So are you really find this really interesting. So just to kind of keep on going in on Yeah, oh, when you? How often do you go back and actually look at your journals and where I'm going with this, you know, like, oftentimes, I would take notes, you know, you know, when I was when I was younger, you know, let's say in church or whatever. And I found that I even just like note taking in school, church, whatever. Like even now, when I'm in groups, I love to take notes, but I almost never go back and read them. It's almost like the act of writing them is sort of cathartic. And it helps you focus. Is that similar to journaling? Or how often do you actually go back and review your journals? For
Speaker 1 41:27
sure, I definitely think the process of writing it out, and then I will look back on the next day and be like, okay, like, I had one journal that literally said, like, how can you show up and be the best version of yourself? How did you do it yesterday and the week before? So that really brings that cognitive awareness to okay, how am I leading my team? Now? How do I want to be leading them in the future? And how do I get to that place of being the best leader I can be, and then my monthly, you know, sit downs, where I'll go back, and I'll look over. So all of my team meetings that I lead, I have notes for those, and I date them, and then I'll scroll back, and then I'll get ideas of like, Oh, that was such a great message. And I love that, you know, aspect of integration and, or whatever excellence or hard work, or however, we talked about one of our core values, I'll all circle back especially like, you know, being in business for many years, you have that cadence, and then you get new people. And they're like, Well, I don't understand what you guys are all talking about, or what you're all about. So then we have just had an influx of like five new people in the last year. So we've just been really looping things that we've been training for years. But a lot of the people have no bandwidth or backstory on all of those principles that we are standing on. And that, you know, are have been our success route thus far. If you
Mark D. Williams<br> 42:58
were gonna tell me, so I'll tell you what, we're gonna do an experiment. I'm going to I'll journal for six months, and I'll start tomorrow. What? Give me if I commit to, what, 10 minutes, 15 minutes? What do I have to commit to? And how would you encourage me to treat it? Yeah,
Speaker 1 43:15
I would say 510 minutes is a perfect snapshot. But I would also pair it with like, at least try to hit like four mornings and four nights and then some days, you know, you're just hitting one or the other.
Mark D. Williams<br> 43:26
Because Okay, so and what are you talking about? So like, you're in the morning, you're just journaling with whatever's on your mind? Is it just like just an outpouring of whatever's on your mind, and that the night is just recapping the day or like getting recapping the
Speaker 1 43:39
day, and then looking at like, so, you know, say you led a team meeting? Well, what about that team meeting was great or not great. And then digesting that? I think, you know, we lean into what we're excited about passionate about. That's what brings more energy into the room, and you want to bring that energy. So if I have a really good team meeting, all right out, and then I'll have my pre notes, and then I'll actually digest, okay, this team meeting, I think was great because of this, this, this and this. So I'll get in my car before I start driving to the office. I'll spend two minutes and I'll just be like, This was amazing, because I gave space for this person to talk. And then they talked and then we had a combination of good ideas, ping pong and around the room. And then it just makes for a more successful next team meeting because I've digested what went well, why it went well. And what can I do to propel it forward into the next meeting?
Mark D. Williams<br> 44:39
So this journal, I am guessing it's either brown or black leather with a cool binding strap. It's pretty solid. Oh yeah, that is solid. Wow, that is a big that's for those. Yeah, that is a chunky chicken. It looks like a tomb from the Old Testament. That was a dead sea scrolls cave. You know The Red Sea. Okay, yeah, that thing's a beast. Okay,
Speaker 1 45:03
I have lots of them fall on my shelf in my office by all the same journal style, or they're a little different this is this is a pretty one I have not as pretty ones. Yeah,
Mark D. Williams<br> 45:14
interesting. And I assume you find just the habit of doing it. Regardless if it's just doing it, I suppose a little bit like running, you know, whether you run one mile, whether
Speaker 1 45:23
you want to or not, whether you feel like it or not, whether it's raining or not, just get after it. Like, it's, it's building that muscle, and then you might not see anything, the seeds in the ground, but watering it and taking care of it, you're gonna have something worthwhile.
Mark D. Williams<br> 45:38
All right, well, I'll send you a note six months from now we'll have a call. We'll see how it goes. You're the accountable. I'm not and the reason I was asking so many questions is I am not a very self reflective person. I think one of the reasons why I actually enjoy the podcast, as I love to hear other people and sort of interact off of what you're saying, you know, I have a lot of respect for people that can sort of, you know, monologue, or just have a topic and just talk about it without someone else I sort of need a, you know, a fencing partner, you know, someone to spar with. And so, anyway, I feel like this would challenge a part of my personality that I'm not used to doing, which is, you know, sort of solo reflective time, my wife, I'm not controlling my wife, I think I'm just gonna see until she notices be like, What are you doing?
Unknown Speaker 46:21
Who made this change? And why? Yeah,
Mark D. Williams<br> 46:23
yeah. All right. Well, that. Okay, we have, we've committed to it. Okay. Looking looking back now, you know, on your career? Did you always know you were going to be really good at creating teams, and supporting people? I mean, you have 20 people, that's no joke. How have you been able to scale? And in the going back, if you could go to the beginning? What are some things you would have done differently? Or what are some things looking back? You're like, wow, I got lucky. I did that really? Well. And it's worked out? Great.
Speaker 1 46:51
Yeah, I think the biggest portion of it is just blessing, like I got, you know, handed deck of cards, and I made it work and shuffled them around. The big part is, you know, putting a little bit of time into those things that aren't pressing, and aren't urgent. like reading books and learning, I think the biggest thing looking back would be I was my own hindrance to my own success. I think that's, you know, your, your story in in so many avenues of life. You know, I didn't set the alarm, or I didn't read the book, and I didn't, and I didn't. And so I think, as you know, telling someone else coming up, I would say, have more ideas than I didn't, you're still gonna have I didn't, I didn't do that. I'm sorry. And be very humble. I think one of our key ingredients here is like, we have a round table. For our leadership team. I'm not like it's my way or the highway. I like hiring people that know what they're doing. And then I give them the bandwidth to do it. Like, a big thing we use is like, I want you to get up the mountain in a reasonable amount of time. Like, I'm not sitting there with a time clock. I'm not an overbearing boss, or person. I just want an excellent job done in a reasonable amount of time. And that's what I'm looking for out of all of the people on my team. So I think that actually helps bring more people on because I'm willing to let them learn and grow and make mistakes, and cultivate their own cadence and rhythm. Like I'm not digesting your day, okay, you went by these many jobs. What did you learn? What did you do, you have to be in the office longer or shorter. I'm, I don't see success that way, like creativity, and greatness comes through space and having you know, a safe space to learn and grow and fall on your face and get back up like all of us learn how to bike. It wasn't like our parents put us on a road bike, consider you're joining this race, like you're five years old, get in there and get after it, you better win. That's what so many employers do. And I think you're just gonna fail, like you're gonna create everyone else up for failure. We have, you know, a training process where we bring people in, we don't put too much pressure on them right away, we let them kind of learn our way process, how the roll looks, how it's going to work. And then we'll do like, you know, meetings, train them, and then put them out and see how they can fly and there's definitely a day where it is it's race day, like it's go time because we you know, want to execute at that high level of quality and finish. So there's, there's no room for slackers, I think, is the main thing. And there's there's just so many, you know, aspects of a team that make it great or unsuccessful, and having that reflective time to digest what's working, what's not and having that yes mentality of like, we can get through this and, and come over any obstacle.
Mark D. Williams<br> 50:08
How, um, you'd mentioned you have four children, what ages are they?
Speaker 1 50:11
Right now? They are 12 We have a boy 12 A girl 10 And a girl seven and a boy five. So and the best wife ever. In
Mark D. Williams<br> 50:22
Do you think that in time that you think, though, because you're a pretty young guy? Do you think that you'll have space within the company that? Or is that just too far away? I mean, that's still 1015 years away? What is your thoughts in terms of, you know, it sounds like your dad from what you said and retired before you started, which is similar to my journey. My parents were builders and designers, and I wanted nothing to do with building because it's what your parents did, you know, they retired. And then it was about four years later, like, oh, maybe I should be a builder. And so I was just curious now having that similar experience for yourself, what is your thoughts for kind of your family and the next step of Kings Ridge, you know, 15 years from now,
Speaker 1 50:57
I think the ultimate dream is I don't plan on ever retiring, I want to play a little bit more golf, and that's about it. But I want to live to 96. That's my goal. And, and so I think the goal is to, you know, ultimately, I think any parent's dream is to bring their kids along, for the journey, spend time with them, like, some of my greatest memories are jumping in the truck with my dad at six in the morning, he would wake me up, I didn't even know where I was going, or what I was doing. I was cleaning garbage or whatever. But then we had a great lunch together. And he took me out after we hung out. And we had great times and stories in the drive there and back. And I think building that quality time for us to connect would be my heart's desire, but I have no like, pressure for my kids. I don't, I don't want to put that on them that they have to be the CEO of, you know, $100 million company that, you know, we're gonna build together, it's, I if you're passionate about it brings you joy in life, then, by all means I want you on board. But if this doesn't pump your tires up, then I do not want that in my sphere. You know, I want you to go after what's passionate and burning in your heart and go after it with all you have no matter what it is.
Mark D. Williams<br> 52:15
What's the significance of 96 Why 96
Speaker 1 52:19
I don't know one of my grandma, my grandma's grandma lived to 96. And I was at that age where my grandma would bring me all the time and my parents would be working are away. And so I saw her a lot. She was up there. And I was like, she lived on her own till then she died, I think late 96. Or maybe she was 97. So she like lived on her own on a farm. Crushed it, you know, was a very hardworking human. I learned a lot of things from her my great grandma. And so I think that just became a goal because I was so young and like, so influenced by her ability just to kick it to that age. So I figured it's a good goal. Yeah,
Mark D. Williams<br> 53:03
no, I was just curious. It was very specific number. So I don't I've never I guess that anything
Unknown Speaker 53:08
over I'll take
Mark D. Williams<br> 53:10
as a bonus. Yeah. What did your parents they still involved in terms of Do they like Does your dad like to come to the job site? And like, How involved is your family in terms of just I mean, I'm sure they're supportive, but
Speaker 1 53:21
they're definitely the best support. But they're not actually involved in Kingsbridge and have never really been just as like a mentoring voice. So financially, or otherwise,
Mark D. Williams<br> 53:34
I gathered that but I mean, where I was going with this is like, I assume when you get together with your dad for coffee or dinner, he wants to hear
Speaker 1 53:43
I mean, they're still doing his own thing. So he's still you know, one one house a year usually, okay, um, you know, he's, he's still still active doing his own thing. So he'll call me up. We usually grab coffee once a week, or lunch or something, get together and just, you know, he's one of my best friends. So I love getting together with him. Spending time and both of my parents are amazing encouragement. And always there for me and, you know, you always have that like, you need to call someone you got this thing going on, and they're always there. So it's been great to have over the years.
Mark D. Williams<br> 54:20
I know is Chloe your wife or is that a? Yes? Okay, so I just saw on your org chart that you know, chloric Chloe McDonald says like, it may it's a sister but ya know, how long has she been involved working in the business?
Speaker 1 54:33
Um, so 15 years we've been around for 14 and she does all our payroll so all especially back in the day when we were having little kids and we didn't have office managers. Now we have people like sending out invoices and taking care of counts receivable and payable but you still is pretty involved. She definitely was way more involved when we didn't have a staff, it was just me, and her doing paperwork late at night, 910 o'clock, sending out invoices or estimates. And she was, you know, a godsend in her ability to communicate and organized and just yeah, she's definitely been rock solid.
Mark D. Williams<br> 55:17
You know, you've mentioned her a few times, in terms of just obviously being a good helpmate, and both for your business and for your family and for your well being. You know, one of the things and I've mentioned this before on the podcast, but it's, I feel like, you know, the best case scenario is where, you know, your your spouse or your helpmate or your partner is the one that brings out the best version of yourself. And sometimes it's not always easy. You know, I tend to be a yes person. So I'll say yes to everything. I have a hard time saying, oh, and my wife says no to most things, and saying yes. And so we're so but it's been interesting. I was thinking about this morning, you know, ever since we've been married, and I can't think of what it was, I can't remember what life was like before having kids honestly. It's like this. I'm 40. Yeah, I feel like yeah, it's it's a lost part of my life. But it where I'm going with this is, you know, I, I'm done every day at 430, I'm on the phone, because it takes me about a half hour away, I'm not one kilometer away. So it's not a it's a little bit longer commute time, but I'll make my phone calls. And you know, I get home at five, we have dinner at 530. And you know, I'm not a night person, I have to go to bed early because I'm because I get up early. And so but where I'm going with this is it took me a couple of years of really sort of like a horse fighting the bit, I didn't like, I used to always justify myself to my wife, like, I'd be home at 505 or 515. And, and I'm not for those out there that have a different lifestyle, there's no judgment, there's just like for my wife, and for our life, it has to be this way, because it's what brings peace to my household. So as anyone who's married knows that, but now I see a huge amount of wisdom in it. We always had, you know, before, you know, my dad was a builder, you know, there was not email and cell phones. And I always remember them being home for dinner, it was always you know, they were both involved in business. But it was a different time, because you sort of had to meet clients, you know, at at nighttime, you know, back in the 70s and 80s. Because like when you know, people, it's much more acceptable in today's world to have daytime meetings or, you know, not have nights and weekends. And in some senses, it's a asset, I think, in a day and age where anyone can be reached at any point in time. 24/7 It's like you said already with the scrolling, you had a great line, I forgot kind of how you said it, but like having some some parameters on your life to help yourself because it's actually really hard to protect not only family time, but sort of your, your own mental. And I don't pretend to have the answer, where I'm just thankful that I do have a wife that has that I now see the value in it after doing it for 10 years, 13 years, I guess, is understanding that there's a huge amount of benefit, because there's also some longevity now, now by setting those parameters, you know, it allows you to extend your your career and for decades, because you can burn yourself out if you're not putting some some proper bookends in your life.
Speaker 1 58:17
Yeah, like a key component to like, our greatest ideas and, and was going away. So every September end of September, October was kind of the best time we found. So we would go away to Europe, with our family for two to three weeks. And our team would run things and that's where all of our great ideas, buying properties and shops and new tools and equipment and hiring the right person and creating that protocol for the that role or whatever it may be. And we still block out time to have coffee, me and Chloe, my wife each week, or have lunch and I think what what do I want in 96? When I'm 96 I still want to have my best friend be my wife. So what am I going to put my time into now is just like working, working, working and not know who I'm with. I don't want that. So I want to have like a long term plan that's going to be successful. Not a short term stint. I think early on in my career, I got really jealous of people. I had one guy he came up was doing the same thing as me and had like 20 Guys overnight, and I was like four guys. I was like how is it possible like what the heck, but he had no foundation like I was building a foundation that would last with principles that worked and lasted through the test of time and he ended up self exploding and, you know, his marriage, his business and lost everything. So I think we all have seen byproducts of good stewardship over the years and bad stewardship. Well, I always ask the people that I see doing well. In something at a high level, I ask questions like, What are you doing? Well, I am dating my wife. What are you doing? Well, I'm mentoring my team. So people that do things well get around them ask questions, and especially in this time of, you know, of the world, like you can interact with each one of us through an Instagram message and say, like, hey, what books are you reading? Like something very simple, that you could get an abundance of wisdom from just by reaching out to someone and saying, like, Hey, this is a question I have, this is a problem I have, and watching things like podcasts and live streams or whatever audible books, just learning from people farther ahead than you so that you can make it to those destinations that you never thought possible. And that's where we're headed for sure. Well,
Mark D. Williams<br> 1:00:52
as we kind of wind down here, what are some things you're excited for, for the end of 24, and maybe even into 25? Yeah,
Speaker 1 1:00:59
24 and 25. We're, like, super jacked. Like, we have some wicked projects, lots in the pipeline, we have lots going our whiteboard is full, which is, you know, always amazing. But we have some really unique now that we're kind of getting out there in the industry as a high quality builder. We're getting some really cool collaboration opportunities with architects and designers, and just pricing some wicked projects. So that would probably be our number one thing that we're jacked up about. And so we're, you know, onboarding, the right people. And we just switched over to builder trend, from CO construct, and just getting the right processes in order to handle those really big projects. So it's something that we're passionate about, and super excited, because that's what we love best, like building big, unique projects that that are not for everyone, and are super complicated.
Mark D. Williams<br> 1:01:57
A question that I wanted to ask you before, but I forgot about, you know, your 30 kilometer. what's your what's your average new home price for not including the land, but just like a new home?
Speaker 1 1:02:07
New home? We're anywhere? It all depends on like, the lat location. But we're anywhere from like $300 to $1,200 a square foot. Okay.
Mark D. Williams<br> 1:02:22
Oh, yeah, that's a massive range. So basically anywhere from like, you know, a million to 5 million, or is that about? Right? Okay. So where I'm going with this question is, let's, you know, mentioned you're really you have these architects. And so, let's say, how do you say no to a project that's 50 kilometers away, but is $10 million? And have you had stuff like that? Where it's a big project? That seems pretty juicy? And you've said no to? Or? Or are there? Are there exceptions to the rule? Because as you build this dynamite brand, which you have over the last 20 years and beyond? How is it well known that you're going to say no, or do people steep trying to, to bring Yeah,
Speaker 1 1:02:58
we definitely get those people like trying to pull us towards Toronto, we would take, you know, if the we're going against the commute hours, to have projects that we would take something more north, not south, we will break that barrier, we have had a lot of opportunities that we just had to in the last month that were like, very, you know, they they weren't even that far, but traffic getting in there, like sometimes you're an hour and a half one way, it's not far away, but the where it was located just didn't work. And so I think having your core values, you know, they're posted on a huge billboard, in our office, there in our shop on a billboard that's like 10 feet by eight feet, like it's, it's a banner, that we all hold each other accountable. And, you know, if it's 35 minutes, then yeah, maybe we'll make an exception. But we're not going to double our time. And we're going in a certain direction for a certain purpose, and it's for longevity success, and collaborating with the right people that will. Because once you take a project way over here, well, then the other one's farther, and then the next one's farther. Whereas all of our word of mouth, just popcorns in the same area, and you just are watering the soil where you want to be at.
Mark D. Williams<br> 1:04:19
Yeah, well, that's amazing. I appreciated our time getting to know each other and appreciate reconnecting today. And for those that are listening, what are some good places to reach out to you if they want to see your work?
Speaker 1 1:04:32
Yeah, so Instagram would be number one. We're definitely live and ready on there. And then we also have some stuff on YouTube, but Instagram would be where we'd love for you to connect and reach out and yes, see what we're up to.
Mark D. Williams<br> 1:04:47
Perfect. All right, well, we will have everything in the show notes. And I want to thank you again for coming on Caleb and hope to see you soon. You're not coming down and to Minneapolis for contractor coalition, right?
Speaker 1 1:04:58
No, no, but you You'll definitely see me in the near future we got to link up
Mark D. Williams<br> 1:05:03
okay let's do it thanks again for coming on and thanks for joining us on The Curious builder podcast
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