Episode 71 - Navigating Design Challenges and Client Relations with Charlie Simmons and Colby Mattson
Episode #71 | Colby Mattson & Charlie Simmons
In this episode of The Curious Builder, Mark Williams chats with Charlie Simmons and Colby Mattson from Charlie and Co. Design about the ups and downs of home design, the importance of client relationships, and the beauty of collaboration. They dive into the challenges of decision-making and setting boundaries, while sharing stories of resilience and the joy of building trust with clients. Plus, they emphasize the need for clear communication and mutual respect to create stunning, lasting homes.
Listen to the full episode:
About Colby Mattson and Charlie Simmons
Growing up in St. Paul, Minnesota, Charlie was exposed to the wide variety of architectural styles that define Minnesota’s capital city. As a child, he spent some of his free time sketching the grand Summit Ave. Victorian houses from the “Gilded Age” on loose-leaf paper, and by the time he was 10 years old he knew that architecture was his calling.
As an avid winter sportsman, Charlie found his way to Montana State University in Bozeman, MT, where he received his Bachelor’s and Master’s degrees in architecture, while also studying Interior Design, History (and back-country skiing). A self-described Modernist at heart, Charlie began shaping his own architectural philosophy into simple yet powerful spaces. After graduating in 1997, he returned to St. Paul to begin his professional career working at a nationally renowned architecture firm focusing on retail and hospitality design. Later, his passion for residential architecture led Charlie to start a new chapter in his life and design work.
After nearly a decade at the region’s premier residential architecture firm, Charlie left to found Charlie & Co. Design Ltd., where he continues to produce award-winning designs, foster strong client relationships and occasionally…sketch Victorian houses on loose-leaf paper.
Colby Mattson brings more than 20 years of high-end, residential design experience to Charlie & Co. Design. Over the years, he had the privilege of designing and managing projects ranging from small kitchen remodels to large estate homes – and everything in between.
Colby and Charlie Simmons collaborated on many projects while working together at another local firm early in their careers and found that they shared a common passion for thoughtful design and strong client relations. After Charlie left in 2007 to start his own practice, it was not long until Colby followed suit.
In his free time, Colby enjoys the outdoors, traveling and honing his dad-jokes with his wife and two sons.
Colby graduated from the University of Minnesota’s College of Design with a Master’s Degree in Architecture.
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Mark D. Williams
I'd say the curious builder podcast we had Charlie and Colby from Charlier co designed in. And just a great conversation. As usual, we didn't get to nearly all the questions that we wanted to about business. But I really appreciated how deep we went really about the philosophy of running a business, how you work together, and really, how we exceed a client's expectation through communication, and really making sure we're powering everybody on the team. So for great, listen, stay tuned. Now for the full episode. Welcome to curious biller Podcast. I'm Mark Williams, your host today I am joined with Charlie Simmons and Colby Matson from Charlie Co. Welcome, guys.
Unknown Speaker 0:36
Thank you for having us.
Mark D. Williams<br> 0:37
All right, you guys are some amazing talents in the architecture world. You guys are home designers here locally in Minnesota and Kobe and I have been friends for a while. And Charlie, you know, I think only met a handful of times, but and I always see your work and magazines and all over the place. They're very aspirational homes. So I'm really excited to have you both on why don't we start a little bit, especially for those that aren't aware of who you are. Tell us a little bit about who you are what client tell you sort of service. And we'll dive a little bit into your origin story, which I think is pretty interesting. And we'll just kind of go from there. So Kobe, why don't you kick us off?
Speaker 1 1:09
Well, we're, we're a what we consider a medium sized firm. In the residential world. There's nine of us currently trailing either two principals, and we have a handful of project managers and young staff architectural associates who support team and the clients. The firm started in 2008. Which we can kind of jump into the origin story later right behind
Mark D. Williams<br> 1:34
me, by the way, yeah, yeah, solid. That's all, Charlie can jump way, way to go at your own now.
Speaker 1 1:40
But yeah, we do specialize in the high end residential market. It hasn't always been that way. And we started out a little on the lower price point side, we've tried to edit as we've kind of grown in the reputations grow. We've been fortunate enough that our clients have grown with us.
Mark D. Williams<br> 2:00
I think that me, that's funny, just for myself, I mean, I talked a lot about on the podcast, you know, we just actually rebranded our company, you know, three to three years ago. And at the time, it was like, you look back, and you're like, I have become a different company than I was. And usually it's your spouse. In this case, it was my wife, who was like, Hey, I think you need to update your graphics and your branding, because your clients to your goal, we have taken us to a place that, that you didn't even know you were that and we know because we see each other every day in the mirror, you you see your own work, you sort of lose that zoomed out perspective. And I really appreciate those in our group or those in our, you know, our peers, colleagues that can kind of say, wow, hey, you guys have really stepped it up. And suddenly, I can relate very much to you know, Hey, your journey as your clients that sort of elevated even what you do and what you can represent.
Speaker 1 2:45
And there's, I think there's certain aspects of business that carries through those of whether it's a work ethic, get a kind of your ethos for the business that can stay pure, in a lot of ways. But it is, it's a much different company. Yeah, when we started, it was Charlie started, it was an IC o on his own for years. And then I joined him and but even then, when there's two of us, it's a small firm, you know, and it's, there's actually a lot of freedom to that. That's kind of a fun, invigorating time. But, but then the company grows and grows,
Speaker 2 3:19
we kind of joke around about just even the name of the company, Charlie and company has kind of a, be honest with you, I've always thought it was kind of a dumb name, it truth be totally was a temporary name. It was an opportunity presented itself to me. And I jumped ship and got to come up with the name because I got a client and thought this is only going to be for six months, right? And then I'm just going to rebrand. I'm not going to do business cards, I'm not going to do letterhead, this is just an LL temporary LLC, no problem. Willing to fast forward three years later, and now I gotta hire. And of course, Kobe was always going to be the first choice in that department. Well, let's just wait. And then we'll talk about rebranding, when things start happening a little more than fast forward a couple more years. And we're like, Okay, now we got to start hiring more employees. And then, okay, we'll just we'll shorten it up Charlie and company, it's C and CO, Charlie, and I only get to Colby, he only gets two letters, C O letter so far. He's the co author running Joe.
Speaker 1 4:19
But it is it's your son, you look down. And I think part of that is just the nature of the way that we work is a very heads down, grind it out, especially in those early years when you know, the going wasn't all that great. Well, I
Mark D. Williams<br> 4:32
mean, every builder can any business can relate to being scrappy. I don't care who you are. I mean, it's hard to be successful as a business. If you don't know how to be scrappy. And I've had so many people on the podcast that did start their company in and around do within less than a three year window plus and minus of 2008. And even for myself, I was I started 2005 We just celebrated our 20th but I was too small to really have anything to lose. And so so many of your peers and those you know Several weight classes above you are gone. And before you know what they're looking at you like a young buck, you're still around looks like you're building a house. And so you sort of benefit, if you could make it through that difficult time. And coming out on the other side, you kind of position yourself in sort of, you know, elite company,
Speaker 2 5:14
somebody had asked me years ago, if, because we did launch this thing, right before the bottom fell out in 2008. And it was literally in January of 2008. And what would you do differently? Would you have postponed it? Or could you have if you had a time machine? Would you sped it up a year to establish yourself a little bit more, I wouldn't change a single darn thing. It was scary. It was really scary. It's like, okay, now I have to come up with money for my mortgage and car payments, and all of that. And I'm like, wait a minute, I don't get a paycheck anymore. Unless I earn that fear makes you hungry. And you know, knocking on past clients doors, or once the word got out that you're on your own people end up kind of gravitating back to you, Hey, I heard you started your own business. We're thinking about maybe doing a kitchen remodel. And you just build off of that you find you accept every opportunity that comes your way big or small. And you do the best you can to build a reputation to build off of the reputation did
Mark D. Williams<br> 6:15
you ever find. And I'll say that I found this for myself, I can't think of three individuals in particular, where they chose me because I was young. And I think they saw something in it. I said, Okay, this is a young builder, trying to make it hungry, that we are hungry, whether they wanted to support you whether it spoke to some you know, someone in their career that kind of gave them a leg up at one time. Do you feel like that when you first started, you had opportunities like that, where people chose you, because of now you're inexperienced, because you were experienced it was at the maturation state of your business. They're like, hey, we want you to succeed, we believe in small business, we want to help
Speaker 2 6:51
100%. And not only was it from from my end, but when Kobe joined me, he had some past clients that followed him as well. And that just speaks to your work hard you treat your clients well, you do the best job you can. And hopefully that turns into something down the road, one of the things that we are most proud of is that we have a lot of repeat clients. And we've been doing this long enough now we're now we're on generation two, and we're doing homes for the children of past clients. And that is, for us the most gratifying part of this, that they continue to want to work with us. And they're even trusting us with their children's homes as well. Love that part. Well, it's
Speaker 1 7:38
we joke also that it's to the point where the repeat clients are not a problem, but they will repeat client claws, you know, we might have a really long waitlist, they, you know, they're gonna get the attention. They have to they're a repeat client, we know who they are. I mean, we can kind of segue or at some point into the idea of trust, you know, that we the clients are asking of us, and that we're asking of clients, both big deals. And once you get to know somebody on a personal level, such as a client, we're designing their homes. I mean, that's nothing more personal. And, and so that's a big ask. And so once you have that trust level of somebody, it's pretty special.
Mark D. Williams<br> 8:19
I agree. I mean, I think it's very akin as well to I would say that the homebuilding business and everything around it is very akin to even like getting married and a, you know, planning your wedding. I guess, actually, it is more analogous than I want to be because people do. The average statistic in United States is like 50% and divorce, probably more than 50% or more, but I've had another think about it humorously, you know, as an architect, you know, you're building multiple homes for people. And maybe sometimes you had that experience where it has been, you know, even with a remarriage, that analogy starting to fall apart. But the point of it is, it's super emotional. Yeah. And I do as a business owner, sometimes. I won't change anything. I mean, to you, like you, Charlie, I mean, your your evolution and your history kind of makes you who you are in plus, don't just get a chance to rewrite our history anyway. So what's the point? We can only try to rewrite our future. But I guess my my point of bringing it up is it is very emotional. And we often because I feel like sometimes the podcast becomes a little bit of therapy, when you're talking to other builders that like, you know, it's sometimes you get really stressed because of it. Not that you can't have good stress, too, but it's just stressful because it's so emotional. Yeah, that being said, you're speaking about kind of the high hanging fruit, which is like these wonderful relationships that are that that type of enduring relationship is one of the reasons why I think the construction world is so sticky and why people do it. I had a client the other day who built her home a couple years ago, and she is such a big fan of us. And she said, Hey, if you can ever sell my house, I would just love to build this you can I you know, he spent two years together. And you know, it's not every relationship that like that. But I mean, every time I see her, you know, it's a big hug, and he's telling me how much she loves her home and it is really deeply gratifying on a deep emotional level to know that somebody loves that. The process and the home knowing that it's not perfect. I mean, it's messy. If you build something outside in the elements for a couple of years, it's, it's it's art, not science. Yeah, it's
Speaker 2 10:08
a double edged sword, I think on the relationship front. So if, when you have repeat clients, and you're so invested into these personal, they start off as professional relationships. business relationships, obviously, so they're clients of yours. But then you, over time becomes very personal, right, and some are some clients who just get a connection. And those are the clients that eventually come back at some point. But there's that added level of stress that, okay, I can't screw this thing up, or, you know, I gotta make this work because they came back, and then they come back for a third time or a fourth time and a fifth time. And there's always, for me, personally, there's always something in the back of my hand that I got to work harder than I normally would I got, I got to do the extra 20 miles on this thing instead of the extra five miles on it. And in reality, I think that that just, they're coming to you because of who you are and what you did. And don't change, just keep doing what you're doing.
Speaker 1 11:08
Well, and one of the things we talk with a lot of our team about and with clients as well is, the design part is actually the fun, easy part, in some ways. You know, it's, that's what we went to school for. That's what we really nerd out about. It's the relation, it's the process. And that's the thing that I think if you go through that process with a client, and they come back, a great project, no matter how beautiful, and let's say there really wasn't much of a personal connection, they just see it as a product, that when you're going to get the big fans is when you go through all of that everything you just described, you're kind of going through battle with them. And, you know, together, and we're all doing it together. And that kind of it's the same thing with builders and interior designers, landscape architects, we're all a team. And we're going through this thing, and it's a million that we, you know, the term we use is million piece jigsaw puzzle never been built before. Our part of the role is trying to get the instruction manual started. And it's a lot of times, whether depending on what people want to spend, maybe we can't put the full instruction manual together, they don't want to spend the money for a really thorough set. But that's what that's our goal is to be putting together the best instruction manual possible to be able to make the process enjoyable. You know, historically, I'm sure you've heard it and seen it have people talk about the horror stories of building and it absolutely doesn't have to be that way it can be super enjoyable, not stress free, but really enjoyable.
Mark D. Williams<br> 12:36
I think the biggest thing that I've learned in my 20 years is clear communication. In the beginning, you know, Charlie, you mentioned you take everything in anything begins you're just a hungry, scrappy dog. And it's you need to, and you learn a lot that way too. But lately, the last couple of years, I've really and I'm not perfect at it, but trying to identify your ideal client. I think it comes from a number of things. The brand, we talked a little bit about brand. You know, what what work you're representing out there, like your aspiration work, what do you want to do? But I think a lot of miscommunication I had the other day someone came in, you know, someone was talking about honey Hill, and it was a young couple really nice. People might it was all green flakes for them. But their budget on that particular one was like 1.7. And no matter what I could I'm like, I'm sorry, no matter what I do, I can't get you know, it's probably a two, three to five minimum package in that neighborhood. I feel terrible. Because like the, you know, the builder from 20 years ago, is saying, like man used to build build a little house for like, you know, the 400,000. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 13:36
You have a million dollar house or Wow, crazy,
Mark D. Williams<br> 13:39
right? And so it's like, you still look you have this recency factor I do you look back thinking about even though I price out homes every day, I still being an eternal optimist think it should be maybe less, or you shouldn't be in more and so the client isn't wrong and their expectations because I'm in the industry, and I feel the same way. But I
Speaker 2 13:56
think that the that feeling that you have that you just described, it should be less? Well, it could be less, it could be more, but you but if the your initial thought is it should be less. That's because you're advocating for your client. We look at it the same way. When we get bids back on our projects. You're looking at like, Whoa, boy, we're over by 10 15%. They're not going to be happy. Well, before we even sit down with the client, we sit down with the builder, and how do we get this thing down into a more palatable number. So we don't lose the project. And it because you're advocating you care, you want the project to be done. We don't want to have a super expensive pile of paper. It's just a paperweight right? You want it to be built, because you're proud of what you do on the creative side. But you also care about that client and you want them to not just throw your plans in the garbage and say, well, we can't afford what we want to do and we're not going to do it.
Speaker 1 14:52
Well. It was the managing expectations too. And like there's going to be certain things where it's a lot of parties involved and does the Client, where some of those dollars are going. Does the client care about certain things? Or not? Do they really? Do they care about triple pane windows? No, maybe not so much. Okay, there's some easy low fruit to find the right budget. So it's always, it really comes down to that matchmaking of trying to understand their priorities. We talk a lot in the office about this idea of how to set your mentality when designing for somebody, we're not designing houses, I mean, there are firms out there that have a style, a very particular style, and they repeat it. And that doesn't mean it's bad. A lot of cases is very good. But it's, it's repeatable. And so when those clients are going to them, they want that product, they want that, I call it an iPhone, right? They know what they're getting. We sit a lot of times, we will talk about client first project second. So always put your your head where the client is, what are their values? Is this a move that's gonna cost money that they don't care about? Because as designers, we're creatives, you know, we see a lot of different things. Now, this would be really cool, right? This would be, this would be great detail, they might not care about it. And now we're just spending their money on something that we care about and not that they don't necessarily care about. In a lot of instances. There's a lot of overlap, we, we think we can get to know people pretty quickly. We've been doing it a long time. And to your point, you can start to learn how to read people. And there's certain key words that we pick up on a lot of times, Charlie, and I will when we're doing interviews, we like to interview together because we're both listening for different things, you know, we're watching facial expressions, and really trying to figure out what motivates somebody. And then that will help us decide, you know, are we a good fit for them? Are they a good fit for us? And I think I do think when you're interviewing, it's very much a two way street. Yeah,
Mark D. Williams<br> 16:45
I think communication, you know, is probably it comes up over and over again. And I think it's the most valuable commodity that both parties would share and a big part of it just in Minnesota anyway, you know, a lot of we have such a strong builder market here with, you know, the great homes just celebrated their 75th anniversary, it's amazing. It is pretty incredible. The advocacy there, and just what you know, it's cool, considered normal, you go around the country, and, you know, there's places that didn't have the freight horns would have been from Minnesota, you'd be like, what? And like, we might have too many tours. Yeah, like, Yeah, but doers, right? It's a little much. But my point is, is, you know, a lot of times, if someone's coming to me, the builder, and they don't have an architect or an interior designer on staff, a lot of what I'm doing is what you're saying called Beyond evaluating their personality, their Hayner styles, somewhat important, but frankly, everyone at a high strata could, frankly, in my opinion, design pretty much what they want. So it's really, you know, value, what do they value, but a lot of it is, you know, I think demeanor, I like to meet new architects and to understand, like, what is their value statement? Because then it gets me excited, then, uh, now when I meet, you know, Susan Johnson, you know, like, Oh, hey, Susan. I mean, she's gonna really hit it off with Charlie, because he's smiling. He must know Susie Johnson. So anyway. But anyway,
Unknown Speaker 17:57
we know a lot of John says,
Speaker 1 17:57
The Well, no, that's right. I think the matchmaking and saying, Hey, put her name in the hat. You know, and from that point forward, let the client figure out who and we tell clients, we, I would much rather a client, go interview a whole bunch of firms and know that we're the right fit, as opposed to being spoon fed a project and say, Oh, I think this is I think you guys would work out? Well, the really the heart, I think the hardest, or the most amount of homework that a client needs to do is when they're interviewing. They, if you put together the right team, everything falls into place. And if you hate pick people for the wrong reasons, whether it be you know, hey, I just I want the cheapest, you know, fees, or, you know, I need it. Now I'm gonna pick somebody because they say they're available right now. Those are generally recipes for disaster. It's just it's, I, you know, we tell clients, when they're interviewing, they're like, Oh, we're not really interviewing somebody else. And often we've been in your shirt. We said, Go Go meet a couple people. If you think we're if you think we're great. I mean, they'll say, oh, no, this feels really good. We want you to know that, go interview some other people. And you know, and then if you know, then you really know, and that to me, those are the clients that become repeat clients, because they say, oh, no, we did our due diligence. I
Mark D. Williams<br> 19:14
mean, they they picked you and they went all in on the relationship. I like that. I think that's interesting. I think a big part of it too, both with architecture, I think with builders, too, you know, if I am going to compete against some house, I want to know where at the same strata. Yeah. Right. And so it's like, you know, if they're going to ask me for recommendation, well then good. I'll recommend other builders that I would perceive at either, you know, higher status than me or you know, at the same status and if if your value proposition doesn't align with mine, unhappy to run them and somebody that I would perceive it that did maybe would my goal to your point COVID. I want I want assemble the Dream Team, and it can be done. It all starts back to communication.
Unknown Speaker 19:52
I think you too.
Speaker 2 19:55
It's when we talk about trying to compare apples to apples quite off then what we find when we have a project that doesn't have a biller assigned to it, that, like will give us who were the top four builders on your website. And we're looking at all these pictures who did that house? Who's the project team? Who did that house? Who did that house? Well, here are the three or four that we work with the most in the past handful of years. Okay, we'll talk to them like well, but hold on a second, we don't know if this is a good fit for various reasons. And then inevitably, they when they're doing their own research to come back with Joe Blow builder. And we don't even know who Joe Blow builder is, we haven't yet we don't have a relationship with them. We don't know what the expectations are, what the deliverables are, on their part, how they do their business, how much they charge, let us vet this, oh, no, a friend of a friend built a house firm, and we thought it was great. And I'm sure they're going to do a great job. But you're not comparing apples to apples, when you get those bids back, they are going to be vastly different. The expectations from our set of documents and our specifications are, you know, we have relationships with certain builders, right. And they know what they're expecting from us. And we know what we're expecting from them, right for a final product. When you circle these curveballs in there, sometimes they work. Sometimes they don't. But that just goes back to you, you you advocate for the client, the best way that you can in if we have no problem working with new interior designers, landscape, architects, cabinet companies, doesn't matter. As long as we know that they can do the job the way that we are expecting and the client is expecting to. I mean,
Mark D. Williams<br> 21:35
it's kind of like to go healthcare, it's kind of like do no harm you guys are you know, it's got the Hippocratic oath for medicine, right? And he's like, Hey, you could do this. But you know, it could be a fatal move, you know, but hey, this is a doctor, I really recommend, you know, let's get a second opinion. I think that I think that's good perspective. Again, it goes back to us communicating that early on in my career, I either didn't know enough, or I didn't advocate enough for the client to really protect them from themselves. And, you know, you had to look at back at, you know, like the relationships that you had the most success with, or the ones that were the, you know, the best projects in there were ones where everyone was really aligned on the same thing.
Speaker 1 22:11
Yeah, well, and even going back to one of your earlier statements, we talked about Valley, we talked about value a lot. And it's, it's the kind of different definitions of value. One is, we want that we want the client to be getting good value, not only out of our fees, but out of the design and the construction cost, right, of saying, hey, are these dollars going into impactful areas that, you know, does a client really care about some of the invisible dollars, they might not some of whom do and then the other one is we want clients to value what we're doing. And that's where he talked about, there's always kind of a, a lower build, or a lower cost solution in everything, whether it be build the design, any of those furnishings. And if they don't value the the aspects that we're bringing, you know, our process, the thoroughness, the thoughtfulness of it, and they say, you know, and there's certain read, there's certain terms in interviews that we'll hear and you say, Yep, I know, this isn't going to be a good fit. And typically, it's the, hey, we just need this drafted up, or, Hey, the real quick, you know, or, you know, schedule, you know, and it's just like, you know, probably not the right fit. And that's not to say that there's not a good fit, it's not a bad project, it's just a bad fit. Because there's a massive amount of talent in this town at all price points. The
Speaker 2 23:27
biggest red flag that we hear in interviews is so have you talked to other team members, prospective team members? Well, what do you mean? Well, have you talked to a builder yet? If you talk to a landscape architect, how about interior design? We we, you know, we design things on the inside too. But we create the house they create the home, so to speak, the furniture, the lighting drapery? We don't do that stuff. Oh, you know what, my wife is gonna do it. She's got an Instagram account. Oh, that's
Speaker 1 23:59
a tough one. And occasionally it works out. We've had some clients that have done a lot of their own design, where it's, it's the anomaly. It's impressive when they do pull
Mark D. Williams<br> 24:09
it off. It's rare. I mean, I've done it before, you know, early, especially, I think not in the last 10 years, but early on my career, right, you know, you would allow that. And then you, you learn a few that just went really south. And then you really tried to explain to the client on the front end, I had a builder who was just in town for the contractor coalition, and he had somebody that you know, really high at home, down in Arizona, and the client said, Oh, we don't need interior designer, and we don't want to pay their fee. I think let's just say this handles 150,000. And he said, That's fine. He goes then you can then we will invoice you for 150,000 to do that work. And they're like, What do you mean? We're like, well, somebody has to do it. And you know, the work there's no such thing really as free. And so he pulled out a design spec book and he said this interior designer on this home. It's this thick everything expect elevations You know, just beyond this is even architecture This is designed, right? You know, talking about. And the homeowner is like, oh, and like, yeah, if this is what if you want your phone to look like the homes that you've seen? I can't do that without my architecture, pardon my interior design, all the things that you just said, Charlie. And again, I think I just love the way he illustrated that to kind of like open up their eyes off to ask I don't know if he ended up building for that client or not. But I think because I get asked a lot you'll we'll get through architecture phase, and usually the architect partners we're aligning with, they know what on the front end, but inevitably costs come up to your point, you know, things are, you know, we have to value engineer, we have to move things around. But I'll often get a sidebar conversation, and they'll say, Hey, do we really need the architect to stay on for construction administration? Ca, right. Yep. And, and again, being a team member, I'm like, Well, do you the home that you came through, or the home that you want? In order for that to be there, we as a team, you know, need to be there? I mean, you don't get to the fourth quarter and be like, you know, I don't think we need our wide receivers anymore. You know, I think we can lose our quarterback. Yeah, we don't really need them anymore. I'm like, what, this is crazy. Actually, the first time I thought of that analogy,
Speaker 1 26:05
we've used the track analogy to have of, you know, is this a relay race? You know, where it's like, do you really just hand off the baton on again, going back to a million piece jigsaw puzzle, and expect the next person to just be like, Yep, I know, every, you know, with these houses, they're so dialed in, often that you push down one spot, it pops up three other spots, you know, you solve one problem it's going to create for others, and who knows that better than the people who drew it. And so often, really early in, you know, in the business, we would do a lot of partial set, when we call partial says basically take it to permit. And people just didn't want to spend the fee. And again, you're young, and you say, we'll take whatever we're happy, we're happy to have it. And it is what the client thought they wanted. Yeah. And so then we stop in the we're not getting paid for CA and but again, we're passionate about it. So maybe we try to get there a couple of times as much as he can. And inevitably, like two or three things change. And all of a sudden, like somebody moved to soffit. And you're like, Well, okay, everything was aligned. And now, you know, it's a little bit of chaos. And oh, yeah, we didn't I guess we didn't really think of that. It's like, yeah, that's part of the process, because we're not doing is if especially on a partial set, you're not doing you're not drawing every single thing. A lot of it is like, Okay, we have a pretty good idea, but we're gonna figure that out, you know, in construction, or that's where we were, consider us as a pretty document heavy firm, we were planners, we would much rather anticipate everything and plan for it, then kind of just gamble ale roll the dice. I
Mark D. Williams<br> 27:39
mean, I heard a story just recently where a framer was on site, and they changed the soffit, the head height for whatever reason, and they had not engaged architect for the CAA. And they came out later. And they're like, Well, yeah, that was drawn that way. So it lined up with all your windows on the 360 architecture, it's a simple thing that most builders would catch. But But obviously, this Pm dent and we talked about kind of the hilariously, that, you know that if you're used to making changes in the field as a builder, and you do so as your career evolves, if you don't keep the team informed of your changes, it can create some major chaos. And I really appreciate good architecture partners, because I love your brains. You know, I'd love to like, you know, to me, this braid is like this amazing thing of like, you guys are thinking so far down the road, in what it looks like and how it operates. And because you've spent so much time doing that myself as a builder, like, I want to get it done. And like you need a driver. I mean, you need, you need a cheerleader to get it done. But like they did that you have the game plan all orchestrated out is a beautiful thing. But
Speaker 2 28:40
you also have to be a realist about this. I mean, we're not robots. And and as a builder, we can drive a perfectly detailed drawing of of how steel is in a concrete beam pocket or something, right? And if it's off by an eighth of an inch, hey, that happens, right? Well, how do we solve the problem of it being off an eighth of an inch? Well, we drew the detail, and it's in our brain somewhere. And we're the perfect person to help figure out how to solve the issue. It's just life into that
Speaker 1 29:17
point, though, to its, I think, you know, when you think about how you're building a business, especially as a design firm, have you want to be we talked about client being client friendly, but it's also being builder friendly, all the partner friendly, right of saying, Okay, this is we, we often will tell people, we want to bring in the builder and the interior designer as early as possible, because we are not the only ones with ideas. This is a huge team effort. And we would just rather just draw at once. So let's get people in early enough. So we don't have to backtrack right and get all those great ideas. And being the other part about being on site is I want to go talk to that framer who has been framing for 35 years because they they have a lot of knowledge and to be able to look at a set of drawings. Seems like oh, you know, I think we would have done it this way, we've done it this way. And we might not always implement those ideas, but it sure does help. A lot of our younger staff, you know, getting out on site hearing the, you know, the old timers, you know, talk about
Mark D. Williams<br> 30:12
it, you know, every industry has its stereotypes. And I'd like to challenge one of the architectural ones, because it's not been my experience at all. We're working with a mall, we work with a number of high end architects and one in particular, right now, they had certain reputation, and I brought them some ideas, and they were very open to it. And recently at build buzz, we had a tradesman in the audience, right into question. The question was, is, as a trades person, let's just say they're an electrician, I don't know. And they said, how do how do we get to be a part of the process? And I responded to the question saying, like, to me, it'd be a huge red flag, if who you're working with is not open to discussion. And where I'm going with this is like, I think there's a perception of Architects like we know best we know what it is, I've not met a single or I can't think of one that I've met that thinks that way. Every architect and designer that I've met yourselves included are curious, I mean, it's the essence the namesake of the podcast, no pun intended, but like, I find that the curious people are the ones that want to keep knowing more. And I am really actually impressed with how willing architects are to engage with people, you just mentioned Kobe, like, hey, I want to talk to the streamer who has been doing it for 35 years, he's probably forgotten more than you'll ever know about, whatever, you know, assembly systems now, you know, thinks about design he's not aware of, but as a team, we're better.
Speaker 2 31:27
Here's a perfect example on we work with a lot of different builders, right. And each builder has their framing crew that is used to reading plans or dimensions a certain way. Some of them for example, when we're dimensioning. A plan like to have rough opening, right? Alright, so window size is x, here's a rough opening, and then you move on down. But the dimensions, some like to go to center lines. Okay, sure. We have those once the builder is selected. All right, how do you want us to dimension our plans to make it most readable for you and your team? Those are the simple things, it says all about a collaboration and getting the best product at the end, right.
Mark D. Williams<br> 32:07
I mean, I think that's really thoughtful. I also think, you know, as a builder, you just mentioned you encourage your clients to interview a few architecture partners, you know, a few build partners, you know, we will often depending on the demeanor will usually sit down with one or two architects one or two designers, sometimes it's just clear like, No, this is your personal like, this, is it. And you know, if you feel differently, let me know. And they're like, oh, yeah, you're right, I just connect with these people. But I'm looking at, you know, one of the things that we do as well is, you know, we'll have any, this is a timing thing, too, but we'll have like a couple different framers, but a big part of framing is scheduling. And so you know, it'd be I haven't had a scenario that you just mentioned, Charlie, where it's like, one of what if you had one that was like, center line outside, you know, it'd be sort of funny, like, okay, which framework do you get, okay, we actually have to redraw the plans for you. It's just more humorous, this process would go.
Speaker 1 32:54
And that's happened as its were also new, like, Well, we thought it was going to be this framer. And again, to our point, we want to be efficient for our clients. And so it's like, I don't have to want to read dimension, the plans, you know, but it's been, it's having that. And then it's also just, every, we're passionate about what we do. And it would be, it would be arrogant to think that the framers are passionate about what this isn't just a job for it, especially in the residential world, you know, these are small businesses. They're grinding it out, just like everybody else. And I think, going back to kind of the business startup, and when you're starting small, starting in a really tough time period, there's a humility, that is, I think, ingrained in our business that it's, you know, it's not about us, it's not about a particular style. We work really hard at listening, and we've got, I think, we've gotten become pretty well known for having a pretty diverse portfolio. And I think a lot of people like to say that, you know, is it an iteration of something. But we generally, we kind of pursuit new things. And I think it makes us better designers. And it makes us better listeners, because it's not a, we want to use our professionalism or experience to help advocate for the clients. But it's a journey, it's a process with them. And some of that comes even from the way that we work, whether it be we do a lot of 3d modeling as to a lot of our peers and competitors. But that's been a way for us to visually communicate with clients a lot better. And it actually is fast forwarded the process quite a bit to build that trust faster. They can we can talk about ideas visually. And we know that the clients can understand it a lot more than the 2d drawings. And so what we found recently is that the 2d drawings really now become a tool for the builder, much less for the client clients have no interest in looking at the 2d drawings. They don't even know what they're looking at half the time. They nodding and say I think that's good, and I trust you. Which, you know, going back to the early parts of our careers, it kind of opens your eyes to be like how much trust people were putting in you. It was clear that they didn't know
Mark D. Williams<br> 34:54
it didn't know I always say you were lucky if you had one. But oftentimes you didn't have either and that's where you can see like You know, semi production homes or semi custom? If you can bring somebody, it's people are so much more comfortable going into a home that's already been built yet and say, What can I change? The problem is and I, I was just having this conversation with a client yesterday is that the land? You know, we talked about the client, we talk about the architect, the designer, and then builder, you know, who has a huge say in this that can't speak the site. And you know, the site has served in the sun. And there's so much that and I think I get kind of geeky about it. But like, I think that's the fun part is like understanding as a craftsperson, I think is my ADHD that I think that's why I picked building I don't know how you could be a building and not have some form of Attention Deficit order. Buka. Every project is so different. Yeah. That's kind of why I like it. Yeah, he's because I don't think I could do the same thing day in and day out. Well, I
Speaker 2 35:44
think that goes back to the curiosity, you brought it up just a few minutes ago, I think you in to be in custom high end residential, whether you're a builder, designer, interior designer, landscape doesn't matter. If you're in this industry, this this niche, you have to be curious. You just unless you unless it's just for money, right? And you just gonna pump out the same darn design over and over and over again. That's boring. Who wants to do that? You know, Colby was mentioning that we have a pretty diverse portfolio that is by design. There are some firms that don't do remodels, there are some firms that only do remodels when we do both, some only do super modern stuff. Some only do traditional we do it all because we're curious people, if a client comes to you and says I have 100 year old house, but I want to have a modern addition on to it. In here are the reasons why that sounds like an intriguing project. Well, I haven't done one of those before. I'm all in Let's go.
Mark D. Williams<br> 36:48
I've mentioned that before someone says they want to help. I was like, you know, I do want to do a really cool sauna like I'm in like wants to do. It's not like you find something you relate to. And it's really neat. Size and budget is should say size and dollar price is not really what drives me that is the consequence of whatever the client wants. If you're willing to pay me for my time, and what I'm gonna do, I'm fine with doing something really small, like a like a playhouse a bunkhouse. Like anything I find that super like scratches that itch.
Speaker 2 37:17
I was talking to another builder a few months ago about the same thing, I should get more excited now in my career of saving our clients money than I do spending their money like, Oh, I really want to show you this really cool detail. It's four times what it probably should be. But it's really cool. No, I'm more excited about, hey, there's a different way of doing this in here visually, and this is how it would affect what we're doing. But it's gonna save you 50% For whatever that thing is,
Mark D. Williams<br> 37:45
I get excited about that stuff. I just like unique things we did one the other day where it was a bonus room. And I usually don't to be very clear to those who are listening. I am not a design build firm. That one point of time, it did realize that and I advertised myself that way anyway, just said that it sounded cooler that way. But anyway, we did that this portion this was I actually did design it, we did this rock climbing room, but only because I have a lot of experience in that relevant so it was super fun. And that was the home I took this client through yesterday and walk in it was kind of like you feel like a proud father you like I had a huge part to make this is a kid's room. But my point is I was so jazzed about it. And I feel like whether you're a tradesman, the electrician, the cabinet maker, the builder, the architect, if you get to have your voice, be heard by the client, and then it actually creates something, you there's something super amazing about everyone that's a part of the home process you feel it's so tangible in a world of zeros and ones and digital currency and all those other things which there's nothing wrong with those things. But when you can drive by a home and say I helped build that, like that there's some there's a legacy legacy that happens I knew that it's pretty cool to be attached to that and I feel my framers I love it when I see my framers walking off the job site ambition taking picking out ideas and sending them to their family like that is super neat and very special and
Speaker 1 39:00
yeah, we should all everyone involved should be really proud of that. And I think that comes back to the listening and making people feel heard of you know, people are waking up early, they're coming in on weekends you know, and the some of that comes back to the client to have the clients kind of have a huge part in making people feel welcome in in the in the home and valued and you know, we have clients that were really appreciative of the entire team and they'll show up to the job site yeah with pizzas and doughnuts and and man that is a really easy way to get your crews working hard people want to work hard for people they like oh man and and that's you know when we were younger and you know we're we're still the the young kids on the block right now. disappeared but no, I'm still thinking about pizza and only when you when we were younger, you don't know the red flags. You know, you don't know what and sometimes it's not even red flags sometimes just not the right fit and as we become older and you know More wise, I guess you're able to say no is probably the hardest skill that I learned when once I joined Charlie is yeah, he, you get a potential client call and you're just like, oh, ah, yeah. And, you know, Charlie had been into it for a few years before me. And he had started building that, like, settle down, you know, like, Oh, and also, it's also the, when we're interviewing as people, we still talk a project about a project and tell it real Intel it is right, you can be excited about it. And you know, in but then you have to cut up say, Okay, well, let's get through the process,
Speaker 2 40:31
get through the contract and get a retainer. And then it's a project. But
Speaker 1 40:35
it's, I think it's just that discipline, and being able to slow down and say, okay, you know, we design, really elaborate holes, we do hard things. And we're very particular in the way we do that. And I think part of the reason that we've had success is we've had we have a lot of conversations about designing the business. Right. And I think that's really important is not just as being pro, we tell, you know, our project managers and our staff, in terms of communication, we want to be proactive, not reactive. So I would, I always want us to be the ones emailing or calling the clients first, you don't want them calling us, hey, just want to check in and, you know, what, where are we at? Right? So we really push our team to be proactive in our communication. And I think the same thing goes for the way that the business has been designed, aside from the name that I see it has not just happened, but
Mark D. Williams<br> 41:28
you guys are still working on hey, something I might actually change
Unknown Speaker 41:30
the greatest name ever.
Speaker 1 41:31
Yeah, it's interesting, because we, we've talked about this and like, we we feel lucky to have been successful over the last, what are we 15 or 15 years? There's a little bit of luck involved in I think it's stupid to think that there's not some luck, time and chance. But the part is, why is the business successful? And why are we successful as partners to is, we kind of joke around, we typically go to lunch, two to three times a week together. And that's our time to download, you know, and make sure that him and Charlie and I are on the same page that we communicate well do together, because we're not working on the same projects, we're working on different projects, with different staff members and making sure that, you know, our work isn't overlapping or overburdening any particular staff. And, and so I think being just intentional, and we approach our work that way, you know,
Speaker 2 42:27
having a business partner is actually a marriage in a lot of ways, right? You got to you're two different individuals, you have two different ideas of how a task could get done. And then just talk it through and figure out what's the best for the business. Right? And
Mark D. Williams<br> 42:46
do you find anything that was one of Mike, maybe we'll switch to some of the business stuff, because I think we can apply to all of ours? You know, we've had, you know, business partners on we've had fathers sons, we've had husband and wives, what are some, you know, I guess, let's continue this thread, Charlie, you know, what are some pros and cons of having a business partner? And even why? Let's go back to the very beginning, you know, you guys had both worked at an another well known firm together, you know, you had launched out on your own, you brought Kobe on a few, like, Why call the why was he your first hire? What was it about him? And was he immediately a partner? Or was he a hire what and maybe talk us through the difference and all that
Speaker 2 43:19
the background was we at a at a sort of the 800 pound gorilla in town here we, I was there for about nine years. And a the last year, kind of felt like it hit the glass ceiling, so to speak, and always had an entrepreneurial spirit, just wanted to create, I wanted to make something make a business, right. And and I sink or swim, right? It's up to you. So I've always had that notion rattling in the back of my brain, and then an opportunity presented itself and I Well, it's not now never going to happen.
Mark D. Williams<br> 43:54
Is that pretty common? Because you see a lot of the times it's analogous to building a project manager or project manager. I'm not sure how it happens. But somehow they'll get it they'll get a client and they'll say, you know, I'm going to start on my own. And that's that first job is that akin to architecture, when you see,
Speaker 2 44:09
I think, mostly the the friends and competitors that we have out there, very analogous, an opportunity presented itself and you either take it or you don't. It's up to you, right. But while we were working at this previous firm on every project that I was assigned, we had a little bit of say on who was going to be on the project team, rather large projects. So you would have 234 sometimes five people on there and I would always seek out Kobe to be on my team because he's a hard worker in he was a young intern at the time, but he had drive and he was always looking for an answer. Even if he didn't know what the answer was. It was the journey to get there. And when you it's a rare trait in life To be honest with you, not only in our business, and we just got along and became friends, we did a lot of out of work stuff with other folks in the firm, and we just became really good friends and began to respect each other and each other's skill sets, he is totally different than I am from a personality standpoint. But we're both curious people. And we both have work ethic. So if you have somebody that complements you, not only from we'll call it a personality standpoint, but also on a business business standpoint, right in this gets into the business side, I have after practicing for 25 years now 26, I have, I am enamored with the business side of what we do. And I have been one because it started the business by myself and my dining room. And, but as it's grown and shifted, evolved over the past couple of decades, I have really appreciated sort of the nuances about the business side, the accounting side, where a lot of different hats, I enjoy that just as much as they do designing homes. Now, conversely, Kobe is very much technically savvy. So we kind of joke Good cop, bad cop. And you know, it's the term that everybody knows, but where I am technologically deficient with all the gizmos and gadgets and computers and software and all that it's second nature to him. And so and I don't want to speak for for Colby, but I don't know if he loves the business side and the crunching the numbers and and the the accounting and all of that I love it, I love numbers, they just sort of rattle in my brain. So I think when you have the two things that you need most outside of the creativity, obviously when you have the business acumen, and then also the technological acumen, and then you can marry those together with two different it's a perfect partnership,
Speaker 1 46:58
I think stylistic part of the benefits, and better, right. And I feel like we're Africa. The what is the notion of, we are different designers, you know, but we have similar values in the level of quality, and thoughtfulness. And so, you know, inevitably, what we've we're at now, too, is a lot of times Charlie and I on the front end in the schematic design, because it's more fun to design with people, right is lately what we've been doing. And this over the years, it's kind of Abdun flowed and how busy we are, is doing these office design Charettes you know, working together, because one of the things that when we were early in the career, we would work together, like on the same project, you know, working together a lot. And when I was you know, the first employee, and even at the past firm, we were day to day, passing drawings back and forth, you know, really collaborating Hey, what about this? No, that's stupid, you know, this, oh, let's try this. And that's really fun. It's really gratifying to design something with somebody as opposed to just being like, you know, it's done and then waiting for somebody to pat you on the back or whatever, that's just not gratify.
Mark D. Williams<br> 48:06
I heard I heard a is a quote that I really like. And it's if you want to go fast, go alone, if you want to go far go together. Yeah. I think that's so t shirt there. Champa. Sticker.
Speaker 1 48:18
But are you sure but yeah, we had. So we've been looking forward trying to say how can we because we really enjoyed it, we really enjoy working together because we're slightly different. And because we are good friends, we're able to be pretty honest with each other. We were actually talking about this maybe last year, we were like when have we had a big blow up disagreement or even a medium size? And I don't think and I don't think we have partly because we aren't different enough that to Charlie's point. I like the business side well enough, but I know he loves it. And so it's one of those things where we've we're talking about something and we maybe we disagree. I think we both look to it and say, I can tell he's really passionate about this topic. I'm Acquia. I'm going to take a second seat to this. And I think that's really important. It
Unknown Speaker 49:06
says mutual respect is what it boils down to.
Mark D. Williams<br> 49:09
I often tell my clients you don't want a bunch of yes, people around. Yeah. So because you know, whether it's designer, architects, traders, people like this doesn't always go well in my own household because I I want somebody to believe strongly in their idea. And my wife might say something, and I'll challenge her. And you know, she thinks it's confrontation. It's not I just really believe quite strongly. And because maybe I'm a louder support emotional argue or, you know, so anyway, where I'm bringing this up is that it's all relationship based. And so I think when you, you know, I've had conversations with my interior designers, they'll bring something forward, I'll be like, ooh, but I really liked this. What do you think about that and you can kind of, I kind of want to see how hard someone's gonna fight for their idea. If they really fight for it. It actually reassures me, it kind of makes me It relaxes me. You've actually in
Speaker 1 49:53
the past six months, we've picked up two projects that they had started working with other people and they said, You know what they were just, they felt like we were designing the house. And we want people who are going to bring expertise and opinions. And we talked about being a client first project second, but at the state, that doesn't mean, just always acquiescing to the client's wishes, because it's part of our job is to protect clients from themselves. Sometimes I think this is really don't think it's a good idea. And you push back a couple of times, and at certain point, you have to just say, I'm listening, I hear you. And as you're probably you've heard my warning, you know, and we'll move on. Right,
Mark D. Williams<br> 50:32
I had one of those recently, that was pretty pie in my own face. And it was, I mean, I'll just describe it, because you will probably really rise to is, it was a, the, you know, we all have designs that we're really proud of. And I'm really proud of this home, and I'm really happy for the client. But there's some things about it that I'm not super excited about how it's going right. And they're not allowing any ca work. So I couldn't have my my, my right wing man and an architect to help me out. And long story short, they want the refrigerator to be proud of the cabinets, and I want it to be all flush and nice and long story short, it had to have a two inch gap around it. It was sticking prod I offered to pay for it. And the homeowner said no, because you'll just screw me somewhere else. And I said, Wow, I said, if you really think that about me, like, why don't even building Yeah. And anyway, long story short, I ended up backing off, but it was in front of it got a little heated, because I just said, I said this it he I said do you want my opinion. And he goes not on this. And I said Fair enough. And it got to a point where I had to ask I had to be very clear, like I'm but I was trying to help the client in a way that I thought was best. At the end of the day, he had a value statement. That was different. And that was fine. Now I'm over it.
Speaker 2 51:43
But it's hard to it's hard to bite your pride at times. And maybe it's a little nuanced thing like the refrigerator and the cabinet. Or they can be great big things. But if you have somebody that that keeps saying no, no, no to the client, and the client thinks you're not listening, it's their house at the end of the day, and we tell our project managers three strikes and you're out. Advocate for your idea. There's strike one, they don't like it. Let's revisit it. And here again, here are the reasons why we think this is a good idea. Still don't like it. Revisit again a third time. And if they say Look, stop, I don't want to do this, then do not ever bring it up again. It's their project, find an alternative. There are other solutions to this too. And that's where we got we joke
Speaker 1 52:33
around that, you know, if if we have to fight for this one idea we don't have for others, then we're not doing you know, we're not good designers. Right. So the idea is we have an endless number of ideas. Sometimes we think it's but one idea might be better for a house especially like you know, when you get into new construction, kind of world's your oyster, depending on how much space you have remodels, we do we love remodels because that confinement, the limitations can actually be really liberating. Where it's like you're responding to something when you have rules, or certain variables are eliminated. It's that's pretty cool. I
Mark D. Williams<br> 53:12
love that you said that. Because recently we had some land that we bought, and we were doing some rendering concepts with their architectural partner, and, and he's like, who's our intended client? And I'm thinking in my mind, okay, this area could handle an empty nester or can handle a young family. And I was like, Oh, great. Now that's a big tree. And then it's like, is this a main floor living as a two storey anyway, we were paralyzed. Because it's like, you know, because once you put something out there, especially marketing wise, you know, in print media or social media, you can change pretty quickly. But anyway, you get the point. And I was like, this is actually I haven't done a spec in a while. And one of the reasons I'm actually considering doing a spec here in the next six months, we'll see how it goes. But the reason I bring it up is I haven't done a spec home since 2008. And I saw, you know, decisions. Yeah, that was the hard part. Because I'm in I'm trying to predict what I think someone will want. I'm way better at getting you excited about what you want. And then really filling in the gap and making everyone like and then you're like, Wow, this is that's really probably my number one asset, frankly, is getting a boom, it's super
Speaker 2 54:13
easy to get that when you when you're doing a speculative home, you're the client, right? And you're also the builder. So are you designing it for yourself? You're designing it for a profit to market it right. It's it's the hardest project I have ever done in my entire career. Was remodeling our kitchen. I mean, and well my wife is an interior designer too. So we yeah, we have we have opinions, but it was you know who won that one. Actually, I think I want that.
Mark D. Williams<br> 54:45
In the kitchen marital advice will be to have
Speaker 2 54:49
a but I think that if you if it was a great it was actually a wonderful learning lesson. When you're the decision maker and you start bringing budget in, and you're doing all these really cool, fussy details with millwork. And it's 100 year old house, and you're trying to match stuff and to get it to seem timeless and perfect. Like, oh, how much is this gonna cost? I go, boy, I am not my client, I just realized that now for the first time, I can't design like I do for most of my clients. So you learned to back off. And then there's the liberation and freedom to that, that was so wonderful. And you just I'm sitting there, instead of getting mad about how much this darn thing was gonna cost. It was like the sun came out in the middle of a storm. And I had freedom for the first time about you know, it, it's not that big of a deal, changing that detail, changing that detail. I'm going to fight for this one. And then my wife is going to handle all the other stuff, the colors, the details, and all that it was so liberating, but it was being on the other side of the table for the first time. It was, it was eye opening, I actually changed my philosophy and how I started to talk to our clients after a certain point, right? When you start getting into the fun part, which is the numbers and how much is going to cost. That's where the advocacy really starts to ramp up, you start taking a step back a little bit, and it's not about the cool. And the expensive. It's about how do we get you where you need to be for to make this the most awesome home for you in whatever those expectations are. It's your house, right? Yeah, I
Mark D. Williams<br> 56:32
think you navigate it way better than I did. I asked my wife one time when I was so tired as we remodeled our house. And I was like giving her my opinion. I said in trying to think that this would help her listen to this and you don't people. You know, Melissa, would people pay me for my opinion. And she without missing a beat? She goes, I'm not paying you. And I actually laughed. I'm like, that's actually pretty cool to che Yeah, call
Unknown Speaker 56:54
me excited to remodel your cabin. Yeah, I can't wait. Yeah.
Mark D. Williams<br> 56:59
Well, you know, we as normally on these podcasts go, we didn't really cover any of the questions I wanted to talk about. But it was really insightful to hear I think we spoke a lot on, you know, the mindset and the philosophy, which I think is really interesting on it, regardless of what you do for a business, a lot of things that we talked about you can apply to your own, we're actually gonna do something new at the end of this that usually asked a rapid fire questions. This one is more, I really like quotes. And so I'm just going to ask you both, I'm going to give you a quote that I've really resonated with and just kind of let you respond in your own words. And we talked about actually a little bit earlier, and the quote was just simply boundaries create freedom. But what how would you respond to that? And segue?
Speaker 1 57:42
i We, as I kind of mentioned earlier, I mean, part of the reason I think we like remodeling, is that there are boundaries, there are rules and being able to, it feels good to be able to put a puzzle together, that somebody else might look at and be like, I have no idea how this is going to work? Or how do we find some create space in a conflict in confines? And some of that is trying to understand history? Why? What's the motivation of what the original house was? And how can we bring that into today? But also, even in just the business component of it? You know, we have to we have employees, we have clients, and we have to matchmake. And I think we do there's a gratification to have when the business feels like it's going very well. And we got it, you know, you've assembled this great team. I mean, right now, it's, you know, there's a shortage of employees in kind of everything related to the residential market.
Mark D. Williams<br> 58:38
It seems like yeah, so and you're on your website or LinkedIn says you're hiring. Yeah. Okay.
Speaker 1 58:43
Now we've found somebody, okay. I mean, there's, I guess you could depends on who you ask, we could probably hire you know, three, four more. And Charlie, and I wouldn't have to be working as much as we are. But. But that's also part of the designing the business. We actually put you talk about boundaries, we've put some boundaries on ourselves. We told we've been larger. Right now we're at nine. We've been up to 12 or 1313 13. At one point, and we hated it. It wasn't lawful it why the difference? be partly it was selfish, because Charlie and I were running from meeting to meeting to interview to site knew we weren't in the weeds drawing we like to draw is kind of Tralee alluded to, we're both kind of we're business owners, but we're at heart I think worker bees. We love working, you know, just putting our heads down drawing. We don't mind drafting, you know, if we have a small firm and so we have to wear a lot of hats. And so if we need to draft up some details, we're drafting up some details and we're using a lower drafting rate, you know, for our clients because again, it goes back to the value it's not their fault that we don't have the drafters available at that moment. And so, by
Speaker 2 59:50
the way, you should see the awesome window schedule I put together this morning or as prepared.
Speaker 1 59:54
But you know, we we lost my train of thought but you We, we kept ourselves at 10. We said 10 feels like the right number for us. We designed the office to have 10 workspaces, there's very be very difficult for us to pack anybody else in. But that allows Charlie and I to stay involved in every project. And I think when clients come to us, and they're interviewing us, not the staff, that they say, We want to make sure that you two are working on of you guys are working on our project. And there's, we have competitors that are 30 to 30 people, you know, deep. And if anybody thinks that they're going to be getting a lot of principal time on those firms, that'd be crazy. And so we designed the business in that way we put confines on ourselves, and I think that makes us happier, right? We can say, okay, yeah, maybe we're working too much, you know, but we're doing what we love. And that's great. When you have people who are passionate about what they're doing, and they love it, then you know, that it's kind of cliche, but it doesn't feel like work. Right.
Mark D. Williams<br> 1:00:57
So how would you respond to that? Boy, Charlie,
Speaker 2 1:01:01
I would look at it a little bit more metaphorically? It's a really good question. I, if you have limitations and boundaries, it doesn't matter if it's in our skill set, or anything else going grocery shopping. Once those boundaries are set, it allows you to focus on what on the confines, right, you block out everything else that's around you, and allows you to singularly focus on whatever that task is getting Cheerios at the grocery store, or a steel detail that you gotta get to structural engineer, you just focus. I have much like you brought it up earlier, the ADHD thing, I think everybody in our business has it to some extent, you are being barraged by a million things in one day. And you have to be able to multitask, you just have to and some people, it's easy. And some people it's difficult, I find it very difficult. But when those boundaries that I set on myself, I get in the office around 530, I have an hour and a half of peace and quiet. I do the accounting, I have this task it is it is a boring checklist. But I do it every morning, because that's how I get my brain to go. And when people start coming in, the phone starts ringing, the emails start popping up. I'm fresh, and I'm ready to go. And I don't have to worry about the business stuff anymore. I can worry about the creative stuff. So it's I think that's a great answer.
Mark D. Williams<br> 1:02:25
Well, we could talk for hours and hours, you guys have a lot to share it. We'll have to probably bring you on next year to see if you ever do expand beyond the financing or fly. You'll have to double stack those desks. For those that are listening that are not familiar with you live everything in the show notes are the best places to reach out to what I assume would be Charlyne co.com.
Speaker 1 1:02:43
You got it. Okay, sure. turtling co design.com. See, I
Unknown Speaker 1:02:47
don't even know what are where he is he's still
Mark D. Williams<br> 1:02:49
not Google. Charlie and CO design Minnesota bill. They
Unknown Speaker 1:02:55
all get there while they're cool. houses.com
Mark D. Williams<br> 1:02:57
Thanks again for coming on. Appreciate your time and Russia. Thanks for tuning in the curious brother. Thanks for having us.
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