Episode 73 - Leadership, Balance, and Challenges in Construction: A Conversation with Allyson Case Anderson

Episode #73 | Allyson Case Anderson | Leadership, Balance, and Challenges in Construction

In this episode of The Curious Builder, host Mark Williams chats with Allyson Case Anderson from Integro Builders about championing women in construction and creating a safe, supportive space, including her successful retreat in Costa Rica. They dive into the challenges of balancing personal life and business, dealing with difficult clients, and the emotional toll of the industry. Plus, they discuss the importance of transparency and collaboration with architects, and Allyson's unique marketing strategy to attract quality clients.

Listen to the full episode:

About Allyson Case Anderson

Allyson’s seed of passion for the built environment started in 2013 when she became a builder under duress, having hired a bad contractor and forced to take over her own project. Over the years, this seed has manifested itself into a fervent conviction to appreciate, invigorate, and inspire residential buildings and commercial interiors.

In addition to participating as a professional speaker for industry organizations across the country, Allyson has been featured in Forbes, Thrive Global, HGTV, The Chicago Tribune, top-rated international podcasts, and other national publications. Allyson was recognized among America’s Top 50 Remodelers by Remodeling Magazine and Pro Remodeler Magazine’s Forty under 40. She is a contributor for The Build Show, a media outlet educating custom build projects across the nation. Allyson is currently the President of the National Association of the Remodeling Industry (NARI) of Greater Chicagoland. She is co-founder of an international all-female builder thinktank, the BuilderHer Retreat, formed to inspire, uplift, and educate female custom builders globally.

Resources

• Visit Integro Builder’s Website

• Transcript

  Mark Williams:

  Lake Society magazine is Minneapolis premier target market boutique lifestyle and design publication. It embodies the unique lifestyles and design of the Minneapolis city Lakes neighborhoods. From Lake of the Isles to Lake Harriet. It showcases the best in local design projects by both premier builders, architects and interior designers in this area. Lakes Society magazine has the look and feel of a national publication with glossy covers, high end finishes. It's mailed directly to upper bracket single family homeowners in the city Lakes area and it's the perfect local coffee table top publication. Subscriptions can also be available through the website lakesocietymagazine.com. additionally, publisher and founder Karen Steckel has over 27 years in the local magazine publishing industry and has a passion for high end photography and quality graphics.

  Mark Williams [00:00:46]:

  Her commitment to quality visual simplicity and beauty are strongly reflected in her beautiful Lake Society magazine.

  Mark Williams [00:00:54]:

  If you're here local in Minnesota and want to network with other builders, we have the curious builder collective. You can head to our website to find out what that is all about. We have three more three hour sessions coming up this year. We're basically a small group that has a room for ten more builders. We currently have 20. We're going to cap it at 30. This is a way to test your theories, learn from each other, and elevate your brand and your business. Head to thecuriousbuilderpodcast.com to find out more about the curious builder collective.

  Mark Williams [00:01:19]:

  Today in the Curious Builder podcast, we had Alison case Anderson from Integro Builders out of Chicago and it was a delightful conversation. We had methadone a couple years ago at the contractor coalition, so it was really just terrific to catch up. I love her enthusiasm and her passion for her industry. We dove pretty deep about her relationships with architects and how she's been able to make them basically a co partner of her company. And now the majority of her leads come from her architects. We also touched base at the end of the episode about their new all female led builder think tank called the build her retreat. So without further ado, let's talk to Alison Case Anderson. Welcome to the Curious Builder podcast.

  Mark Williams [00:02:04]:

  I'm Mark Williams, your host. Today I'm joined with Allison Case Anderson from Integro builders out of Chicago. Chicago. I was going but say Chicago, Minnesota. Chicago USA.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:02:15]:

  Midwest USA.

  Mark Williams [00:02:17]:

  There we go. Midwest USA. That was a great intro. Yeah, it's great to have you on. Last time we were going to have you on, you got deathly ill and so it's good to see that you're alive, which is always positive news. We met. Can you believe it's been two years since you and I met at Nashville for the Contractor coalition?

  Allison Case Anderson [00:02:35]:

  No, I can't. Time is flying.

  Mark Williams [00:02:38]:

  Two years ago. I cannot believe it's been two years.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:02:41]:

  I know. Yeah. It's crazy.

  Mark Williams [00:02:43]:

  What? Out of curiosity, we've talked a lot about the contractor coalition on the podcast, and we just recently did a recap with Build buzz where the curious builder had a live event prior to kicking off. Contractor coalition. Minneapolis, here in the middle of May. What led you to the contractor coalition for the first time? What was your point of contact? How did you know about it, and why did you choose to go?

  Allison Case Anderson [00:03:06]:

  So I was already following Brad and Nick on their accounts as everyone in the ether is in the building community. But it was actually Morgan molitor who brought my attention to the coalition summit. And she's, you know, her and I have been collaborating for years. I'm a huge fangirl of hers. But she was putting this thing together. I think that was their first one in Nashville. Yeah. And so, you know, she's like, I'm doing this thing.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:03:37]:

  We're bringing a bunch of builders together. And I didn't really know what to expect when I went, but I was like, yeah, I mean, that's cool. I mean, you know, the community is quite small, but I feel like after the coalition, it got even smaller. Like, all of a sudden, it's like, I thought the Chicago community was really small and, you know, builders, and now it's like, now we have these national relationships of builders, but the community still feels small.

  Mark Williams [00:04:03]:

  It totally feels small. I think when you. Obviously, I think one thing that social media has done a very good job of is really binding people together, especially in the building community. I mean, we're big fans of each other's work. It gives you a way to check on people's lives, what they're doing, you know, what your career path is, but really, the details. But then when you get to meet for three days and you spend, you know, breakfast, lunch and dinner and all the time in between together, obviously it's much stickier. And obviously, if I ever see someone who's on the contractor coalition, you know, alumni and they show up on my feed or if they're not already on our automatic, you know, massive text train that we have going for, like, and save, you know, you end up just. It's like you're very aware of what people are doing.

  Mark Williams [00:04:44]:

  Have you found that you have found people in the group that you stay more in touch with even outside of let's say, you know, just social media standpoint.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:04:54]:

  Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and it really. I'm also like, it's really encouraged me to go to more conferences nationally because everybody is there. You know, I mean, you can go back to the coalition summit and meet those people, but it's also just, you know, now when I'm going to conferences all over the country, it's like, I know so many people, and I feel like, especially Instagram is a great way of keeping abreast of what everybody's doing. But, yeah, I mean, the DM's are real on Instagram, and I feel like, you know, there's. There's just kind of this constant conversation happening all the time and just a lot of support. A lot of support.

  Mark Williams [00:05:32]:

  Did you do. Because I view the contractor coalition and even international builder show, I view it as the education bucket. And I feel like, so I've been building for 20 years. I don't think it was until. So that was year 18 that that happened, and I was very. I've always been very social, very extroverted, but I never really. Yeah, I know. Shocker, right? I know.

  Mark Williams [00:05:56]:

  You should be. My wife. My wife has, like, my polar opposite. But anyway, my point in bringing that up is I never really prioritized education because I never thought of. It's more than networking. I think networking is such a. Not that networking is a shallow word, but networking really isn't. Isn't the full picture of what happens because you become friends.

  Mark Williams [00:06:17]:

  It becomes deeply relational, and it's like, when did you think that your peers would be, you know, a lot of times you thought, or at least I did. Maybe this is my only. Maybe I'm the only person who thought this way that, you know, your, your peers were your competition, but really shedding that, that, that expectation. And Morgan has always said it, the best collaboration over competition, that was on the. Basically the bumper sticker of the conference, and realizing that these are your friends, these are your teammates, honestly, it feels like we're a team. We're like, we're all big fans of each other. How do you view it? Do you view all of these conferences and kind of this whole new rising tide floats all boats? Is this, like, a new thing that we're just kind of becoming aware of, or is our industry just so far behind the other industries that it's like, you know, we think we've created something new, which clearly is not a new. It's mainly just a new concept to our industry?

  Allison Case Anderson [00:07:10]:

  Yeah, I think. I think it's you know, big boats help all boats rise, right? Like it's all part of the tide. I think construction is a unique industry when it comes to competition. You know, I don't like, I have, I have, you know, architects are my primary client base. And whenever I'm meeting a new architect, they always ask. They're like, so who do you consider your primary competitors? And it's like, I really, I struggle with that question because it's like, if I say, if I say, well, I don't feel like I have any competition, it kind of makes it sound like, oh, I think I'm the best of the best. But that's not what I mean. What I mean is I don't believe that any builder is the same as any other builder.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:07:50]:

  I think that clients, there are clients that would work well with me and there are clients that wouldn't work well with me. And I think every builder delivers a certain experience. Experience. And I also think that we're a unique industry and that there's no generation coming behind us. So it's not like there's this huge plethora of custom builders that can do any project. And I think that, you know, networking, you're right. It's just kind of like, well, it's not a big enough word because we are learning from each other. And the houses that we're building now are different than the houses we were building 50 years ago.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:08:32]:

  And so we've got this big educational hurdle that we all have to get through with building science and building resilient buildings. But then we also have this unique company experience that everyone provides. And there's enough work out there for all of us. We're not all fighting for scraps. I mean, yes, we all have those stories where some client hired some low bidder, but that's not, that's not the networking we're talking about. You know, if a client's going to hire a low bidder, they're going to hire a low bidder. I mean, that, that's a guy who's like, fall fell off the back of a truck. You know, that's not aft, that's not Mark Williams.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:09:09]:

  You know, it's like if someone hires another builder, if they've talked to a couple builders and they hire another builder, like, I don't consider, it's not based on price. You know, it's based on personality.

  Mark Williams [00:09:20]:

  Well, that was something that has become a very focused topic for me lately, and something I talk about a lot, which is identifying your ideal client. And I think as business owners, we've all maybe struggled with even being aware that that was something we should do, which is, number one sort of awareness of it. But then once you're past that awareness is like, kind of owning up to it and actually having the guts to really do it, because sometimes it sounds great, you know, I'm only going to do this. But then there's the reality where maybe business is slow and you take a job that you probably want. That doesn't define you as your ideal client, but you also have to keep the lights on. And so I think especially businesses that, you know, I started in 2005, and so, you know, obviously, 8910 is still fresh on my mind. Honestly, right now has been a struggle. I'd say the last year has been a very much of a struggle for me personally.

  Mark Williams [00:10:11]:

  Um, we've had, you know, we had five homes under construction last year. Right now we only have one. You know, we had five. We had three homes at $3 million that all canceled in the last six months. And that has been, you know, I'm not alone in. In that and that happening, but it's like. It's easy to say, like, they were my ideal clients, except they didn't become clients. So it's not.

  Mark Williams [00:10:33]:

  There's nothing ideal about that situation, and there's obviously other, you know, circumstances involved with that for me personally. But at the end of the day now, I'm looking down the barrel of your overhead gun and saying, like, oh, you know what? I'm gonna take a few remodels. And they're still good. I like, I want them. But, you know, maybe a year ago, when I had five homes going, I was like, you know, I don't really have time for some of these remodels where right now, it's like, you know, we'll absolutely take it. Anyway, how do you. How do you stay true to your. I guess the question here, other than just my therapy talk, is, what is your way of identifying your ideal client but then also realizing you have to balance it because you're running a business, you employ people, you have a family, you.

  Mark Williams [00:11:13]:

  You know, these are just real struggles that any business owner has to weigh against their, quote, ideal client.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:11:21]:

  Yeah. So, yeah, in Chicago, it is a wasteland. Also, as far as work, I mean, it. Construction is incredible. I mean, it's like we are operating on a false sense of security no matter how good things get, you know, just incredible. The. Between 2021 and 2023, it was just gangbusters. And then it felt like all of a sudden, quarter one this year was, like, flatline, right? Like nothing.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:11:52]:

  You know, I ran into the same thing, quite honestly. And then I was also coming off the heels of having a couple very challenging projects. And, you know, I think I. What we're doing, like, as far as it's a real struggle, because I think the biggest, one of the most stressful things that I have to do on a daily basis is separate myself emotionally from my day job. Emotions are always high. It's my role as the builder to keep everything even flat and even let everybody be emotional around my flat line, like, through the project. And it's really, really important that we stay consistent. No matter what we do, we stay consistent.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:12:37]:

  But that puts a lot on me and my team, right. Because we have to absorb a lot, and we feel like the parents all the time, you know, like everybody's allowed to have a tantrum except for us, and yet we're the ones that are bringing all this together. Right. I'm trying really hard not to cuss as I say this. It's for the benefit of your podcast. But. But, you know, it's. I think, like this year, you know, same thing happened in 2020.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:13:04]:

  It was like all my projects felt like soldiers because all my projects are unoccupied. So, you know, no one was moving out of their house to go spend a bunch of money when Covid was happening. Then 2021 exploded, and now there's another flat line for, who knows? Interest rates, election year wars. Who knows, right? I. And I think it's really important, you know, especially if you are an established builder, you have to be real careful what you do in dark times because you're only as good as your last project. And the problem for us is that I can't do a small job anymore. We're not good at it. We don't.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:13:45]:

  I'm not going to get a reference for it. I'm not going to price well for it. And it's like. And I also. My biggest concern is that I have an excellent team, and they are imperative to executing my projects, and I don't want to lose them, you know, over some kitchen and bathroom model. So, you know, it is. It's a huge struggle. I mean, basically this year, you know, in 2020, I responded to slow work by opening my Michigan office.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:14:14]:

  And this year, I'm responding to slow work by doing a development. Every time I've gotten slow, I've hemorrhaged cash. It's like my theory is if I stay still, if I freeze, I die. I have to keep moving, and I have to keep pivoting, you know, and.

  Mark Williams [00:14:31]:

  I just, I think that's, that's actually, I think that's well said. It reminds me of a adage like, activity breeds activity. And I remember growing up, my dad used to always use this adage where it was about, I want, you're either busy getting busy or you're busy being busy, but either way, you're busy. I. Yeah, you know, as a kid, I was like, that's a lot of busy going on in that sentence. But it totally makes sense as a business owner because, you know, I think when, you know, it's, again, it's like if you are sort of stressed out trying to look for work, you know, you have that stress, but then your team isn't as stressed because they don't have as much to do. And then if your team is stressed, it's because they have too much to do. And now you're sort of relaxed.

  Mark Williams [00:15:12]:

  It's like in this paradigm, someone is, but as the leader of your cap, the captain of your ship, you kind of have to be steady at the helm. And to your earlier comment about being a little more even, I've noticed I've tripped my, one of my intentions this year with my team is to try to be more available. And the reason I say that is, you know, we spend so much time, you know, I don't know if you lead all your own sales. I'm suspecting you do, and so do I. So it's like, you know, most of my time is trying to figure out where the next sale is going to go. And it's always this constant battle, especially with a small company like us, where I think that's one of the advantages of once you scale, let's say, you know, Brad obviously has, I think now 27 or 30 people. I mean, that's a totally different operation. So and so, in some ways, I'm sort of envious of it because it'd be nice to check out on that.

  Mark Williams [00:15:58]:

  What I'm not envious about would be like, his monthly payroll. Like, that would freak me out from the standpoint of, like, I'm thinking about squirrel getting ready for, for winter. Like, that's a lot of nuts in the trees, you know, that you got to be putting away every month to make that work. And, you know, he even said recently that, you know, he's concerned about 20 years, 26 and 27. You know, he's out two years forecasting, which to me, I'm like, oh, man, I would love to be thinking about 26 and 27. Because right now, I am very much focused on July.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:16:26]:

  July.

  Mark Williams [00:16:31]:

  I'm like July of 24 here, Brad. I'm being in the moment.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:16:36]:

  Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, it is, it's kind of like more money, more problems, you know? And for me, too, it's like I never want to be in a position to be feeding the beast, you know? And I purposely had set my company as a boutique firm doing larger scale projects with a leaner staff so that when we hit hard times, I would be able to absorb them. But, you know, I've already been absorbing it for six months, you know? And so it's like, I think the hard thing about what we do is it just, it all goes down so fast. You know, it's like, you know, it's. It just happens really fast. And I think, you know, for us also, it's like you can't, you also can't have, like, a whole year where you're, like, down in the. In the trenches, especially if you have, you know, those projects that are just kind of a grind and they're hard, and there's a bad dynamic from any member of the team.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:17:35]:

  You know, those projects get hard. They wear down on you, and it's like you have to have some joy. Like, you have to have one really positive project every year, you know?

  Mark Williams [00:17:44]:

  And so Jeff and I think finding other things that are positive, you know, you can obviously, you know, relate to personal things in your life that are positives, or you can set milestones or goals for yourself, you know, but you're right. I mean, if you can find, I think sometimes when you couple difficult economic times with also a difficult client, I think you. I didn't realize I had a twin sister in Chicago because you're, you're reading my mail. I. Two of my, my more difficult clients were over the last couple of years during some of this transition time. And so it's the amount of kind of toxic emotion and energy that goes into that on top of some of the economic, it robs you from being who you are, even for your team and for some of your future. Stuff that never really gets quantified in a p and l statement or a cash summary statement. But, like, that weight is real.

  Mark Williams [00:18:29]:

  Like, when you pass those and you realize, wow, I was. I didn't realize how much weight I was actually carrying. It's sort of eye opening, you know, I think that's something. Yeah. That, that people, until you experience it, it's pretty hard to relate to it or even really understand it, in my experience.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:18:46]:

  Yeah. And I think if you're a good leader, right? You take that on. So for me, like, my, my general rule is I handle hard conversations. Like, my team is on the front lines with the clients, the architects, design teams, whatever, they, they have to be able, they can't have the Sunday scaries. They can't be afraid of what email is coming in next or what's, you know, what's someone going to say? So it's like when I see a project where there's, where there's a hostile element, there's a hostile person that's involved, I immediately will step in and shield from that because I consider it my role to protect my staff. But it is, it is hard. And, you know, I mean, and especially when we're in an industry of passion, I mean, our margins are so low that it's like, no one would do what we do if we didn't love what we do. And I think when you're, when you're doing a pursuit of passion and what you do, and then you have people who are hostile to you, it's like, guys, what do you think we're doing? You know, like, we're not trying to mess it up.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:19:53]:

  We're not, you know, trying to get you what you don't want. You know, we're not, we're not trying to egg anybody on here.

  Mark Williams [00:20:00]:

  You know, the thing that's so, the thing that is so unfair, really, about the industry is it's filled by people who are passionate about it, which is great. That's one of the pros. We as a collective whole make much, too. I mean, we just don't make enough money. There's not even a question about that. I remember what, years ago, I talked to my CPA, and he was not a building a specific CPA, and he just said, of all the business owners, your margins are lower than any of your. Of other businesses is like, wow, that would have been helpful to know. Thanks, dad.

  Mark Williams [00:20:28]:

  I wish you had steered me to a different business when I was 23. But anyway, and I digress. But then the second part of that was the expectations do not align with the margins that builders make. And because building a home is so emotional for the homeowners, the only thing I can think about that is a comparison to how emotional is would be like getting prepared for a wedding. You know, people have this expectation that they want their wedding to be perfect, and it's their day of love and their family and all, there's all these crazy emotions that go into it, and, you know, the wedding is either a success or it's not. It's not. There's not really a middle ground there. Yeah, I think.

  Mark Williams [00:21:05]:

  I think sometimes when people, you know, go for a dream home, like their new home that's so expensive, and they would. When I interview my clients on the back end, you know, I often hear them say, like, well, we wish you would have been more present. We wish you would have been there more often. We wish you would have done more client experience. And it's not that I don't want to do that. I do. And it's something that I have to take with a grain of salt because it doesn't mean that I can't get better. And actually, client experience is something that's very much on my mind right now of, like, actually creating.

  Mark Williams [00:21:32]:

  Creating a path, like, actual plan client experience. But my point is for how little we actually make as an industry. Not only does the client, you know, want to pay you less because they already think you've been making more than you are, which is not true. Even when you show it to them, they just don't. They just think you're making too much, and then on top of it, they want even better service than you're giving them. I mean, those. Those things don't add up anyway.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:22:00]:

  Yeah. And I think, you know, because I've been doing. I've been doing quite a bit of soul searching, you know, in the last couple years. I feel kind of roped in to a couple projects, if that makes sense, you know, where it's like, I literally last year, like, tried. I was like, I, can we negotiate a termination agreement? Like, can we just, like, you know, and then the response is like, no, no, I think you're strong, blah, blah. I was like, really? Really? Because I feel ranted at all the time, you know, like, we're working so hard. I don't know, you know, I don't know what else to do to make you happy when. When we're on change order 73 and change order two was the only unforeseen condition, you know, like, I'm not a design build firm.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:22:44]:

  I'm a custom build firm. And typically, all this stuff is sussed out before I began. And, you know, but it's like clients don't want to hear, well, this isn't what I signed up for, but, like, that's how I feel. And I was thinking about, of course, like, what could we have done better? Like, how could I have handled this better? Or, like, what could change? And I think. I think for us and the big. I would, the big push towards the development side is I'm like, you know, I really have to diversify my portfolio because I think as a builder, you have to have other streams of income or we just can't make it. You have to have the brand partnerships, you have to have the building side come in. But what I've learned is that if I'm trying to pay my overhead with my profit margin, it's not going to work long term because things like 2024 happen or 2020 happen or 2008 happen, and then it all goes away and it happens within six months.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:23:44]:

  And then you have to start making decisions from a place of survival and not a place of power. And I was like, I need to always be in a place of power in my company. How do I, because I need to be making good, high level decisions. And what do I do when I'm in a project that is out of my control, where I am just reacting to the world around me and then the bad guy because I have to build the thing. And so I'm forcing, that's the issue with construction is we don't have the luxury of the design team of saying, oh, we'll deal with that later, or saying something passive. We have to be direct and we have to force an issue until we get an answer because we have all these obligations under our agreement, things like schedule and spec and all these things, right? We need answers, and so we have to force the issue. It's like forcing a bride to buy the wedding dress. Like, you have to pick wedding dress today.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:24:39]:

  You can't think about it, you know, while the design team is like, I like that one. You know, we can put it on the roster and it's like, no, we're like, you need to, we need to buy it today. Right?

  Mark Williams [00:24:48]:

  You know, that's so funny. I've never thought about this analogy before until you just said it that way. So you know how when someone like the designer says, like, you hear from, for the client whether they're like, oh, you should pick white. And the designer and the builder both know that there's a thousand different whites, but the homeowners just like, oh, you know, just, just pick a white. I was, how about a wedding dress? Be like, just pick a white one. Just pick a white one. You're like, there's thousands of different kinds of wedding dresses. Like, just pick a white one.

  Mark Williams [00:25:11]:

  But you got to make a decision today anyway. That's next time. Next time a client says, oh, just pick a white. I'm going to be like, oh, did you just pick your wedding dress just because it was white? And I'm going to. Anyway, I'll send you a video if I can capture.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:25:22]:

  Yeah, that's great. Yeah, I will. I will like it and say, I.

  Mark Williams [00:25:26]:

  Will like it and save it. Go ahead.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:25:30]:

  Oh, I would just like to round out the thought. What I was thinking of when I was like, oh, what could I have done better? Like, what could have gone better? And I think it really came down to who, who the architect is really changes. And I really was thinking like, okay, next move. Next move is where we only want to work with the architects that we want to work with. You know, there's no more taking chances because one architect, it can be completely different from another. And I think, and I was like, okay, so then what do I think? What is a good architect? Like, what makes a good architect? And I was thinking, and I was like, yeah, I want an architect who's humble. Not in the sense of like, they think they're lowly, but like, if I don't understand a detail or your drawing isn't telling me a story, I want you to be humble enough not to come back to me and be like, well, a better builder would understand that detail. You know, I want an architect that's going to be like, okay, let's work on it together to make sure that everyone understands exactly what I want.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:26:29]:

  Right. But on the other side, it's also architects that are willing to have a hard conversation with clients and are willing to be a united front with us because it's just like having kids. We have to be a united front. We all have to be saying the same thing. And hard conversations should be having on as a sidebar. And we should be coming back to the clients with whatever it is that we discussed and we agreed upon because the clients need that. Right? We never want to be putting them in a position to referee. But I think that there are not that many architects that can really do that.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:27:04]:

  And I've just found that there are. For the handful of architects that do, the entire dynamic is different. They're leading. They are leading the project. And I am also a strong leader, but I'm not the visionary, and I'm coming in representing my side of it. And so I'm like, yeah, I want to do developments because I want to be able to pick and choose. I would rather wait for a good architect than be busy suffering through a bad one.

  Mark Williams [00:27:28]:

  So two questions along that front. What percentage of your clientele is coming to you first? And you're recommending them to architects versus architects, bringing the client to you, I.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:27:39]:

  Would say it's probably 80% architect referral and 20% client referral.

  Mark Williams [00:27:47]:

  That's amazing. Well, let's just stay on this topic. How did you develop those relationships? I know I talked. It's funny, I had this question recently at Build Buzz, where is actually an architect firm asking the question of how to get in with builders. But I think the question applies both ways. If you're a builder, how do you get in with high architect or with architects you want to work with? What has been your experience to be a trusted right hand woman to these architects for them to trust integral builders, walk us through the maturation process of how you will go in a minute. Maybe how you started the company originally, later. But let's say you have XYZ architects.

  Mark Williams [00:28:26]:

  How did you develop that and what do you do to maintain it?

  Allison Case Anderson [00:28:30]:

  Yeah, so I mean, marketing has always been a cornerstone for my company because I started from scratch. I started out of nowhere with no experience. And so the basis of my company was always like, builders don't even barely had websites when I started eleven years ago. And I was like, okay, this is where I can get in. If I come in and I have a website and I have content, I'm going to be able to sell work. Because when clients are excited, when homeowners are excited about their project, they're Googling, they're on the Internet and so I'm going to give them something to look at. Right. So that was really my early marketing strategy on that and I knew that I wanted to work with architects and so I would bring them work.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:29:14]:

  That's how I started it. You know, I got the work, I brought them work. I mean, Chicago is a very friendly community. It's a very small community, even though it's a big city. AIA, you know, I joined AIA. They have a certified residential architecture network and I was just out and about and around town. I mean, if there was an event, I was at it. Anything architecture related, I sponsored awards, I, you know, for different organizations.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:29:46]:

  And then I joined Nheri, National association for modeling Industry. I joined their board. So I was always just kind of building credentials and then feeding work to architects and then, you know, goodbye gets good. Once I started building that portfolio and I just really executed those projects well. And I think what we do really well is worse. You know, we're pretty sophisticated and we've always been pretty sophisticated because I came from a project management background. So these architects were not used to having weekly status updates, you know, they weren't used to having even formal change orders or formal, you know, agreement.

  Mark Williams [00:30:24]:

  Are you running the change orders through the architect or through the client?

  Allison Case Anderson [00:30:27]:

  Through the client. But the architect is copied on them.

  Mark Williams [00:30:30]:

  So then you're just basically, and then at the end of the week, like because you use builder trend, correct?

  Allison Case Anderson [00:30:34]:

  Mm hmm.

  Mark Williams [00:30:35]:

  So are, you know, the weekly update that we send our clients every Friday or if you do your daily log, are you doing a summary recap through builder trend to the architect? Are you sending them a summary in a different format like an email or some other internal document?

  Allison Case Anderson [00:30:48]:

  Yeah. So we actually keep it pretty rudimentary. It's through an email. And then basically the weekly recap is items completed, next steps, action items for you, and then a little summary. So, and those are all done by percent completion. And then there's a summary at the bottom. So and then we include the whole team on that email. And yeah, you know, it stayed in email because it, it works.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:31:11]:

  It's kind of rudimentary, but it works and it keeps, keeps that pulse on everybody. I feel, you know, we work with builder trend. We use it for, it's excellent for bidding, for change orders, for invoicing. I love the client portal we have. I'm starting to do the to dos now to manage teams on sites and checklists. But I think that weekly email is a little more personal of a touch.

  Mark Williams [00:31:39]:

  Interesting. I just wrote that down to take a look in that we have, we have an architect that we, I believe we're going to be getting hopefully any day this week on a remodel we've presented three times. So if we don't get it, I'll be like, man, is this normal? You present three times. So of course they keep taking away scope, so they're just making it less and less expensive. But the architect's been great and they've got a stellar reputation. So hopefully this can be kind of our first in with this particular architect. That's why I was asking more specifically in that case, because it's always something that, even with the podcast, frankly, I didn't realize that this would become kind of what it's become in such a short time. Cause we've done, we can talk later maybe about the collectives and some other things.

  Mark Williams [00:32:20]:

  I know we'll talk a little bit about your retreats and some of the things that I've got planned, but one of the things is by continuing to have these conversations with our peers and maybe we'll talk a little bit about some of the things that you've done. But I feel like as you engage with the architects and other people in the industry, ultimately you become like a news source and a news hub. And my hope, obviously, is not only do I believe it, but I want to promote them. But you're creating a relationship through just a different format because obviously you have this on your website. But, I mean, you've got quite a list of accomplishments from, you've got your HGTV, you've got your number of podcasts. I like international podcasts. I like to hear about which ones are international there or if that's a little marketing spin. Either way, I applaud you.

  Mark Williams [00:33:09]:

  And then I'd like to talk a little bit bit about, you know, your, how you contribute on the build show. And so, you know, because these are all platforms. I mean, obviously you started with your AIA, your nari. I mean, it ends up all these things, by the way, take a lot of time. And where have you found that your time is best served in order to serve the greater, you know, integro brand? Maybe talk to us a little bit about, you know, some of your history in some of the things that you are doing now in a public setting. Which ones have you sort of let go of and which ones do you kind of refocus on, or do you just kind of do all of them the best that you can?

  Allison Case Anderson [00:33:45]:

  Yeah, I think, you know, as far as the, the press and stuff, especially in the beginning, that was really just, you know, I was always full court press on marketing. I was just fighting to get that portfolio, fighting to get that next project. And so, you know, in the early days, like HGTV, actually, I started in the industry because I hired a bad contractor. I started as a developer, and I hired a terrible contractor.

  Mark Williams [00:34:12]:

  But I had on business out of curiosity, of course.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:34:15]:

  Yeah.

  Mark Williams [00:34:15]:

  Are they really?

  Allison Case Anderson [00:34:17]:

  So. But they. I mean, actually, I can't. I don't actually know. I haven't really talked to. I'm guessing, you know, it's like, cockroaches always survive. But anyway, so, you know, it's. So I had this blog that I was doing, and I was like, blogging.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:34:34]:

  And it was like, one week I would be like, how to plan your MEP schedule, and then the next week would be like, how to mess up your MEB schedule.

  Mark Williams [00:34:43]:

  It was your dear diary, right?

  Allison Case Anderson [00:34:46]:

  And so, like, HGTV came and they were like, oh, you're kind of funny. You're kind of cute. You know, we've got house hunters renovation. Like, is there a project you would, you know. And so that sort of came together early. And I was networking. As I said, I was all around town all about time, doing the BNI, networking, doing small business, advocacy council. And I met a PR consultant.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:35:13]:

  And she was like, allie, if you got HGTV doing a project, you're not going to get the boost you need from HGTV. From there, from the episode launching. She's like, because people, when they research you, they're going to watch the episode. And while they're watching the episode, they're going to say, allison, Chicago, Ally Chicago, Al y Integra, integral builders. You know, she's like, and you, she's like, so Integro has to be at the top of Google before HGTV launches. And she goes, and then it'll launch you into the ether, but you already have to be there. And I was like, aha. How much is that going to cost? And she's like, about $30,000.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:35:59]:

  And I was like, it might as well have been a million dollars, you know, when I was first starting, and I was like, my God, you know? But then, of course, I did what every builder did was just like, okay, how many projects do I have to get to afford 2500 a month, you know? And so that's what we did. I signed on with her and I was like, I can make 20 grand this year.

  Mark Williams [00:36:20]:

  And so this was what year? So you started in 2013. What year was this that you hired a PR? This is amazing.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:36:26]:

  2014.

  Mark Williams [00:36:27]:

  So one year into construction.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:36:29]:

  Yeah.

  Mark Williams [00:36:30]:

  You decided to hire a PR firm. That's incredible.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:36:32]:

  Yeah. And she, you know, and so we did it. HGTV launched. And I remember I was in. It was in a cabin in Michigan, and all of a sudden on a Sunday, like, I. My phone started, like, going crazy, you know, and people were like, oh, my God. Like, it launched, blah, blah, blah. And the episode, by the way, was called the never ending renovation.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:36:55]:

  It's still like, like, as of a year, it was still like the number two most watched episode because we didn't finish the job. The project got shut down by the city.

  Mark Williams [00:37:04]:

  It's even better. That's the best episode ever that, you know, it's like, it's like, you know, a successful movie is like a sequel, and it's like, we don't know when the third part is ever going to be done or the sequel. Just dot, dot, dot, right?

  Allison Case Anderson [00:37:16]:

  It was like a murder documentary. Like, is she alive? Is she dead? But, yeah, the final scene is like, down to studs, right?

  Mark Williams [00:37:22]:

  Like, oh, this is amazing.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:37:24]:

  So, you know, I was like, what a disaster, you know, and I just thought, you know, so anyway, it launched and then the Chicago Tribune picked me up and they did a full page, like, spread. And then, you know, we started, I got all kinds of journalists calling and asking and whatever. So that, that was a really big, really big push. And then, you know, I had architects. So I worked at an architectural engineering firm. So some of those architects that I knew from a past life, they also did residential. And so then they reached out to me. And one of the architects, SmngA, after we finished a project, they hired a very high end architectural photographer and they gifted me those photos.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:38:08]:

  And that was really the first, that was the first time I had had that done. And it completely changed the types of architects that were willing to consider us for, for work. And so I would say initially the marketing, the press, the podcast, the interviews, it was all focused on builders need to be better and we need to change the industry. And, you know, the standards should be higher. And then as the years have gone on, I'm like, no, builders are not the biggest threat to this industry. Clients are the biggest threat to this industry.

  Mark Williams [00:38:45]:

  Hey listeners, in the last couple of episodes I've talked about the benefits of CBUSA, the leading group purchasing organization in construction. We're gearing up here in Minneapolis for an annual builder event called the Summit. September 22 through September 25, it'll be in Minneapolis, Minnesota. This event, formerly known as the power 30, is CBUSA's biggest event of the year. CBUSA members from across the country will come together to learn and engage in networking opportunities like face to face meetings with top brands and reps, interactive breakout sessions with fellow builders, and an exclusive vendor expo showcasing the latest materials. I'm excited to attend and I'm excited to be recording a podcast episode in front of a live audience. Fellow home Builders, if you want to be a part of this too, then head over to CBUSA us learn. Additionally, if you want to hear the backstory about CBUSA, you can listen to curious builder episode number 26 with Ryan Lipchek.

  Mark Williams [00:39:38]:

  This episode is brought to you by adaptive, the software for builders that automates draws budgets and bookkeeping with AI. For over a year now, I've been partnered with adaptive and they've just been an amazing game changer in terms of efficiency in our time, in all our bookkeeping. From the time we get an invoice, we import it into their system. The AI codes it, cost, codes it, job codes it. All we have to do is review it pass it through the people internally in the office, all digitally, and then it gets approved and paid all by ach. It's becoming extremely fast and saving us countless hours a day and a week. When it comes to draws, all of our budgets now are set in adaptive as well. So now when we cost code against the draws, we can do our change orders.

  Mark Williams [00:40:21]:

  And then with a click of a button, we can submit these draws to our title companies or to our homeowners for faster payment. If you're looking to save time, and if you're looking to be accurate, I highly recommend adaptive. Additionally, if you'd like to listen to one of their founders share the story of adaptive, you can listen to episode number 15 on the Curious Builder podcast.

  Mark Williams [00:40:37]:

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  Allison Case Anderson [00:41:23]:

  And Pella Windows clients are the biggest threat to this industry. You know, custom builders become developers because we just can't take it. And so, you know, now my brand is like, okay, I've been doing this for eleven years. I'm like, I've probably got another ten years in me to do this. And like, I really want to give back. I really want to normalize the things that we go through. This, this whole concept of everything is wonderful and everything's supposed to be great is setting a bad expectation for clients. And so I've really, my brand has changed from builders need to be better to everybody needs to be better, the buildings need to be better, we need to have higher budgets to build resilient houses that can sustain for the next generation of use.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:42:10]:

  But also we need to be nicer and kinder to our builders because we all care very much. And you guys are creating the dynamic you're a self fulfilling prophecy, you know?

  Mark Williams [00:42:23]:

  No, I think that's extremely accurate and really helpful. How would have you found? Yeah, I was just kind of soaking in this information because I think it's amazing. And I love when I brought it up a few episodes ago, but these different phases of your career, someone said recently, was learn, earn, and return. And, you know, my joke is I missed the earning phase and I've just learned, and now I want to return, but I got to go back and get the earning phase. But, you know, in terms of returning, I love that. I mean, honestly, that's what I'm trying to do, even with this podcast or the collectives or. I feel like that's what the contractor coalition did by leading forward and saying, hey, you know, we can share everything that we do with our. With our peers, our teammates.

  Mark Williams [00:43:08]:

  I mean, really, at this. At this point in time, our industry, I look at everyone around us as, like, they're my teammates, and if. If they can help me, I hope they will, and I'll help them. And I think one of the most underserved words in the english language is help me. And I think their ego has a huge part to do with that. But in general, I love it. I mean, who says no, if somebody says, help me? And I. And where I'm going with this is like, I think you edge us as builders.

  Mark Williams [00:43:35]:

  And what you already said is, we need to educate the client. Help us. This is right on, Jerry Maguire. Help us. Help you. Help us. You know, help you have a great experience. Help us by you, by you being better, we will be better.

  Mark Williams [00:43:50]:

  And it's funny because a lot of these principles are pretty. Pretty simple. I remember years ago, I interviewed my dad, you know, when I was a teenager, maybe a middle schooler, about why he had a successful business building company. And his responses still stayed with me. He said, it's not that I'm so great. The competition is just so bad. And his point was is do, like, some basic things, like return people's phone calls. Like, shocker, wow.

  Mark Williams [00:44:13]:

  You know, be nice to people. And it's like. It just varies. These are human things. These are not, you know, exclusive to the building community. And so I think. I think a big part of what we can do as leaders, only for our companies and maybe even in industry, is just educate our clients that, you know, what we are trying to do here is build you a beautiful home and understanding that is super emotional, but you have a team, people that love their craft. I think I need to do a better job of telling my clients how passionate the team that they have in the field, not just myself.

  Mark Williams [00:44:49]:

  I mean, it obviously starts with me because they meet me first, but letting, educating them of how passionate these people are about their homes. Because I think if you can show and demonstrate that there's a human part of us that wants to connect to other humans. And when you see people, because when you bring your clients through and you see the trimmer or the tile or the drywall or, like, like, it's inescapable, like, that looks really hard or it's really hot out, you know, yesterday the humidity was off the, off the rocker here, and I was like, man, if you were in a house without AC, like you are, you are, you're chugging a lot of water. Like that can't go unnoticed. And, you know, if you maybe show up to the job site with honestly basic stuff like some ice cream or some, you know, some Gatorade or whatever it is, I think just bringing back the humanity of what we're doing for people would go a long ways towards everybody being better.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:45:39]:

  Yeah, I think kindness is a good place to start, you know? And, and I think also, you know, there's just, I think for some reason, the emotional aspect, especially from the client side, makes them irrational. And that's the hardest part for me, where it's like, I can deal with mean, I can deal with angry, I can deal with stress, but I can't deal with crazy. Like, we have to be talking about the same thing, whatever it is we're talking about. But at the end of the day, there are only so many arm swings in a day, right? I can't hold your schedule if you're adding more stuff. There's only so many arm swings. And I can't just add an indefinite number of arms because, number one, they don't exist. And your house is not the size of the world. So I think there's that aspect of it.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:46:30]:

  And I think it would be helpful if clients realize gestures of kindness and consistent kindness pays dividends. Like, you know, whenever we have a really nice client, I'm always like, uh oh. You know, like, because I just give them everything, you know, where I'm. It's like there's, you know, there's an issue, and it's like, I'm just like, whatever. Like, they're so nice, you know? And I just think it's like, if you, the hardest negotiator never wins. If you're a hard negotiator and you're just, and you're difficult with us all the time. We feel like anytime we give you something, you've won. And you don't want your builder in that position.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:47:07]:

  You want your builder feel not in a position of winning or losing. We all should be winning, you know.

  Mark Williams [00:47:14]:

  Creating a win win scenario. That's funny you mentioned that because I remember there was a, early on in my career, can't remember exactly what the details were, but, and there was a, it was a subcontractor, myself and the client. And the advice, again, was from my dad, having been a builder, I'm like, hey, dad, what do you think about this? And he's like, whatever you do, create a situation where everyone wins a little bit. And I think that's solid advice because you don't want to create an adversarial relationship. Certainly at the beginning, the problem that I run into, and I think you're right, sometimes you need people on your team, or you need someone, and not just your inner team, but let's say your team could be your lawyer, it could be your CPA, it could be your financial advisor, it could be whoever. We need protection from ourselves. And I say that like, I do care about my reputation. I do care.

  Mark Williams [00:48:04]:

  I do want to be kind. There have been a few clients that have taken advantage of, essentially. It's hard because, and I know that other people have said this, like, don't excuse my kindness for weakness. And that sounds great. It's a very plethy little bumper sticker. But the end of the day, like, you care about people, and at the end of the day, like, am I gonna probably give on something just to, like, you know, I don't know, maybe that's just a me thing, but it's like, I don't think I want to change. I know that I'm not going to change who I want to be as a person because I have a really difficult client. Like, I had this one client who actually made it really funny where he said, he said, I'm.

  Mark Williams [00:48:41]:

  When you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Now, he was at least self aware enough that he was funny about it. But, like, there are some clients that, man, all they want to do is hit something. And I think that's where it's, like, on us as the owners, too, figure out a way to not have them as a client because I don't think it's pretty hard to change people's personalities or change their modus operandi on how they're going to treat people. The question is how soon in the process can we discover that? Is it precon. Is it the meeting? And we won't talk about it now because there's other things I want to talk about. But, like, identifying your ideal client through red flags. Like, if you see enough red flags, like, how do you kind of pull a u turn? Like you had mentioned earlier in our podcast about, you know, maybe some clients were like, hey, can we mutually just say we both want to be done with each other and your clients, like, no, please don't leave me.

  Mark Williams [00:49:27]:

  Alison, you're awesome. You're like, really?

  Allison Case Anderson [00:49:29]:

  Yeah. And I'm still like, okay, can you. Can you pay your invoice? Any day now would be great.

  Mark Williams [00:49:37]:

  But anyway, it's hard, right? I mean, we all try to do the best we can, but it's. It's hard because sometimes, don't you agree that people essentially mistake your kindness and your humanity, essentially, for weakness? And then if you get the wrong client, who can sort of weaponize it against you, it's pretty hard to do. It's pretty hard to combat. I found that I don't know the answer on how to combat that. In hindsight, easy. Oh, yeah. Oh, I should have done this, that. But in the moment, I have to say, that's not one of my strengths.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:50:02]:

  Yeah. And I think I. What I struggle with most on that, too, is sometimes I just feel like the more we give, the more is expected, you know? And I feel myself at some point, especially on a bad project, being like. Like, you know, gosh, they have no frame of reference for how this could be going, you know, like, if we hadn't, you know? And I think that's the hardest thing, where it's like, you know, you're working so hard to overcome things, and it's like, the more we do, the worse it gets. And it's a real irony with the. With the industry that unless you have another party, like, say, an architect who's keeping things in perspective, it's really difficult. It's really difficult. You know? And I think for firms like yours, like, I applaud you.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:50:44]:

  You know, it's like you're. You're doing the whole thing. Like, it's like you and the. And the client without any intermediary, and, yeah, it's. It's. And I think that's. You know, a lot of builders are like that, and it's. It's just hard.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:50:58]:

  And it does feel like a luck of the draw. You know? I give. I give a keynote presentation called 50 shades of cray, and, oh, man, I gotta.

  Mark Williams [00:51:07]:

  I gotta. I'm making a note on that one. That is a great title.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:51:10]:

  Yeah. And it's all about, like, managing, like, basically the four types of catastrophic clients and how to identify them, why they're doing what they're doing, and how to manage them. Because not necessarily that you can't work with them, but you have to know why they're doing what they're doing, and then you have to know how to manage them. And it's about, it's also about, like, becoming a project influencer as opposed to a project manager, you know, taking project management to a different level so that you're influencing your project projects and not just managing them, you know?

  Mark Williams [00:51:42]:

  Well, I think you actually had something on your website. You have some great quotes. If anyone listening hasn't been to your website, they should definitely hit. It'll be in the show notes. But one of the things that you had mentioned, I'll just read it now so I don't mess it up. It just says that the construction process is not merely throwing hammers. Your project is built many times in our thoughts, in our minds, and on paper, the physical building of the structure is the final step in the journey. By the time we get there, we've already built it several times.

  Mark Williams [00:52:07]:

  I love that concept that I think illustrating to the client of how much thought and process goes into that. I mean, that is a much more eloquent way of saying measuring twice and cutting once. Yeah.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:52:19]:

  So anyway, well, and it's all about pre construction. I mean, for me, you know, we started a pre construction process back in 2019, and now I don't know how we never did it. And I just think that pre construction process is so important for everybody, everybody involved. You know, we should be. Before we start spending serious money and we start signing serious contracts and we start throwing big hammers, we should be in control. If we can be in control of something, we should be in control of it. And I think specifications and drawing details, construction details, these are all things that should not be worked out during construction. You know, we should try and be ahead of as much as we can.

  Mark Williams [00:53:03]:

  Isn't it funny? You look back on your career. I mean, I can speak for myself. It's like, you know, you, you get your six page plan and you, you know, oh, we're gonna, we gotta get this thing in the ground. You know, clients are excited. You know, you want to get going and you go, go, go, go. And you're constantly figuring it out on the fly. And it's, it's funny. It's not till years later that you have someone stops you and gives you just a good analogy.

  Mark Williams [00:53:24]:

  It's like, you know, would you really take off in an airplane that is missing an engine and the wing isn't attacked and you're just going to figure it out literally on the fly and you're like, why do we as builders think that our industry is special? Why do we think that our industry is unique, that we. This is a great idea. Like, no one on the planet thinks this is a good idea, and yet every builder can relate to exactly what I'm talking about. Am I wrong?

  Allison Case Anderson [00:53:47]:

  Yes, it's true. It's like, yeah, does iPhone give you their beta version before it's launched? You know, like, no, you're absolutely right. Yeah, that's, that's hilarious. That's funny.

  Mark Williams [00:53:58]:

  So there's so many things I want to talk to you about that, but I do want to get to the build her retreat. But right before we do, let's go to the. So your contributor on the build show, tell me a little bit about that. Obviously they have a big platform. You know, Matt Risinger obviously is a very household name, but I have to be honest, I don't know a lot about the build platform. What is it that you do specifically and how did you get involved? And I. And where do you see kind of your future involvement with it?

  Allison Case Anderson [00:54:25]:

  Yeah. So the build show platform is really building science focused and it's about building better. So a big part of my focus is about resiliency, building homes that are resilient. Climate is changing, the weather is changing. These houses have to be stronger. They have to be able to absorb a lot more. You know, we can't build houses the same way that we built them 50 years ago. And there's costs that comes along with that.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:54:53]:

  But if the cost becomes absorbent, exorbitant, then we're going to end up with a big problem. Construction costs are already rising at an incredible rate, especially in the last five years. So, you know, the build show platform really aligns with my brand, with what I'm trying to do. They're very building science focused. They really geek out on the construction details and they've primarily, I think they intended to market to other builders, but they've found that they have a very wide audience of homeowners that are also interested, which is great, because the more that clients understand about the intricacies and the complicated details we have to deal with, the better we're all going to be. Right. The more empathy builders are going to get. The more respect we're going to get for what we know and what we do every day.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:55:44]:

  So, yeah, the, the relationship evolved, you know, through the grapevine, through, through networking. Mark Willey is from Chicago. Him and I knew each other. He joined the build show. They have 15 contributors. It's based by region. And so I'm representing climate five region, which is the Midwest. So, yeah, so I started with them about a year ago.

  Mark Williams [00:56:06]:

  Is that in Chicago, Minnesota?

  Allison Case Anderson [00:56:08]:

  Yes. Maybe you're slightly colder. I don't know. But yeah, you know, I'm passive house certified. I have a building science background. And, yeah, so, you know, we do, we do shoots and we're talking about all things construction. And now they're doing their first conference build show live in November. So that's really exciting and that is fun.

  Mark Williams [00:56:31]:

  Oh, man. We'll have to off to tune in for more information about that and we'll even talk a little bit offline. Um, let's go to talk a little bit about your, um, you know, recently you did, you partnered with Meg Billings and Morgan Molitor. And was it you or was Danielle Guttelli a part of that as well?

  Allison Case Anderson [00:56:49]:

  Um, so it's hosted by. Yeah. Morgan Mullator and Meg Billings. But Danielle came, which was awesome.

  Mark Williams [00:56:54]:

  Danielle came, yep. So a bunch of CCS alumni and you did a build her retreat, I think it was in May. Why don't you tell us a little bit about, you know, what led to that kind of what you were trying to achieve, what the experience was like. And then I know, obviously you're already promoting it for next year. You know, what you think you're going to change and you know, what you're trying to, what you're trying to do with it.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:57:15]:

  Yeah. I think as hard as building science and mental health is, among all builders, what's even harder to find are females, female builders. And Meg Billings and I, we knew each other through Instagram and Bradley, Brad Levitt and Nick Schiffer, they had connected us more intentionally because they, they were like, you guys should do a podcast. Like a woman in Construction podcast. And so Meg and I were talking about it, and then I was like, we got all the equipment and everything, and then I was like, meg, does the idea of doing a podcast make you want to throw up in your mouth a little bit? You know, no offense. And, and I was like, I just feel like it's been done. Like, you know, there's the build show podcasts. There's, there's, you know, Brad Levitt has a podcast.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:58:03]:

  There's modern craftsmen. You know, there's Mark Williams, you know, cut the curious builder. I'm like, what are we going to do that's different? You know, and, and I don't, I don't know, like women in construction, like, what does that mean, you know? And I was like, I don't know if it's going to make the impact that I really want to make. I'm like, the reality is, is that female builders are hard to find. Number one, because there aren't that many of us, but number two, because they're a little scared to come out of the woodwork because it's intimidating, right? Like, women are perfectionists and they don't want to say anything wrong. And so a lot of them don't say anything at all. And I was like, we need to find them and we need to bring them together because this is the next generation. We have to find the next generation of builders.

  Allison Case Anderson [00:58:50]:

  And if it's not going to be a demographic, right, if it's not going to be another community or nationality or race that's coming into the generation, then maybe it's gender, then maybe the next generation is women.

  Mark Williams [00:59:06]:

  That would be amazing. I've spoken so many times, I just. My daughter would be amazing owner. Frankly, I hope she doesn't choose building because I will give her better parental advice than my dad gave me. But, I mean, I was even looking back at the history of people I've interviewed and I don't know the exact number, but it's about half have been, you know, female led owner founder companies. Now, not all builders, some designers and whatnot, but just in general. I mean, what you're doing is so I hope you're right. I mean, because I think that's also a very untapped market.

  Mark Williams [00:59:36]:

  And I've often brought this up to many of my colleagues. But who makes the majority of the decisions in a home build? It's women, right? It's the missus. I know I was taught at an early age. My mom was an interior designer. She told me if you can't relate to your female clients, plus just being a good human being, she's like, you know, who's going to want to build with you? And so I've seen and looked around at my peers and I've tried to do that, you know, not falsely. It has to be authentic, right? But I mean, ultimately, women love talking to women. They understand it better than men do. Because, you know, ask my wife, I'm sure I missed the vote on most things.

  Mark Williams [01:00:09]:

  And so I guess my point in saying this is, like, why isn't there more women in construction? And if. If men have made it intentionally male dominated, that's just stupid and naive, and it's eliminating what we can do. And so I do hope the future has, you know, kind of what you're trying to do with it, because I think it'd be amazing.

  Allison Case Anderson [01:00:25]:

  Yeah. And. And, you know, and I think when we go to female conferences, right, it. It can be. That conference can be anything. Like, they could talk about anything, that kind. They could talk about, like, dog food at that conference, but we would all still go because we just want to look at each other, you know, and be like, oh. And so Meg and I were like, yeah.

  Allison Case Anderson [01:00:43]:

  I was like, I want to create a safe space for women to talk about the real things that are happening in construction, to talk about the real problems that they're having and just create an environment where everybody can grow. And for me, like, I've had a lot of hard knocks in my career, and if I can help someone skip steps and not do and make the mistakes that I made, I want to do that, like, skip steps and get further, faster. And so that's what the retreat was all about. And we're. So we got a mansion in Costa Rica, was a bartender, private chef, 20 women, 20 rooms, and, yeah, we just got together. We did some morning presentations, just me, Megan, Morgan, and then we spent the rest of the day talking, you know, and talking about all the things that are going on with everybody's business. And it was. I don't know what I was expecting.

  Allison Case Anderson [01:01:35]:

  I guess I should have expected that, like, a bunch of female builders were gonna have a ton of personality. But I was a little nervous going into it. I was like, I don't know, are these women just gonna go back to their room? Like, when presentations are over, are they gonna, like, go to the beach? What are they gonna do? But it was so much more than I ever could have imagined. The candor, the vulnerability, the expertise, the advice. People were breaking into groups, like, you know, talking about everything from legal to marketing and branding, you know, and it was. It was magical. Like, it was a magical week.

  Mark Williams [01:02:12]:

  Jeff and I would have to imagine that you get into a lot of personal stuff, which I think is okay, right? I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, a lot of the conversations, because. Because we're in an industry where it's so, you know, we're so passionate about it, and it's our love, it affects our family, it affects our personal life. Like, any business, frankly, does, too. But I would imagine a lot of the conversations, you know, while it's certainly helpful to talk about, you know, margin and project managers and the nuances, building science, whatever it might be, I would imagine a lot of it is also, like, a big topic that I love to talk about is balancing, like, your personal life with your business life, and, you know, how do you show up and be present in both? Did you find that a lot of the conversations ended up being about lifestyle and just how people balance it, or.

  Allison Case Anderson [01:02:53]:

  No, all, yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, in construction work, life balance is a tough one. Right. Because I think building is one of those careers where it's not what you do, it's who you are. Right. And. And I think, you know, the personal side of what you're doing, it affects, you know, everything, begets everything. And mainly in every small business, maybe can, maybe not construction specific, but, yeah, you know, I think definitely there were conversations about personal issues at home, marital issues at home, relationship issues. And, I mean, and there are some incredible stories that I heard, and it's like, you know, you never know where everybody's coming from and where.

  Allison Case Anderson [01:03:38]:

  How that background affects their business. And I think it comes also from, you know, people who may have a healthier background run their company on optimism, and people who come from a hard background are running their company on fear. And there were a lot of conversations like that where it's like, you can't run your company in fear even when times are bad, you know?

  Mark Williams [01:04:01]:

  Yeah, I mean, I 100% agree. How does. What it was the. What did you hear from the attendees? What did they enjoy the most?

  Allison Case Anderson [01:04:09]:

  The cocktails. Well, they. Just kidding. Yeah, I think they really. The feedback we got, Washington was the camaraderie and the candor, and I think we. The vulnerability and people just talking about the real deal. I think what the women really came back with was validation. We're not doing it wrong.

  Allison Case Anderson [01:04:34]:

  Everybody's going through the same thing. Everybody has the same challenges, and everybody has the same failures at times. And it's not you. You're not failing, you're not doing it wrong. But then here. Here's a few tidbits, you know, that might alleviate some of that pain.

  Mark Williams [01:04:51]:

  Where for next year, is it in the exact same place as a new location? What. What are you guys going to do? Either the same or different for next year?

  Allison Case Anderson [01:04:59]:

  Yeah, it's largely going to be the same next year. You know, for me, I don't want to. This is, like, not my full time job. And I was like, if it ain't broke, like, don't fix it. It's a. It's a great location. One thing we're going to slow, we extended a day next year just because it got a little hectic with, like, excursions and things. And I think what we really needed was more time, like, just to hang out with each other and talk.

  Allison Case Anderson [01:05:23]:

  So, you know, this is the first year. Next year will be one day extra just so we can have a little more downtime. And we're not, like, kind of going from one thing to the next all day.

  Mark Williams [01:05:32]:

  We'll put that in the show notes as well for those that are interested. I know you guys have the portal out there for early bird registration for. I think it's just. Is it just build herretreats.com or.

  Allison Case Anderson [01:05:42]:

  Yeah, so it's. You can actually. The best way to find it is on Instagram, you know, build her retreat and. Yeah, and if anyone has any info, they can just find me on Instagram or construction to style. So, yeah, we actually have it through, like, an event create. So you just register and. And come. And we still have early bird pricing, but we only have a few rooms left, so.

  Mark Williams [01:06:04]:

  So maybe you can inform this. So we actually, it's on our. It's on our website, the curious builder under retreat. So I've talked to Morgan a little bit about that. She was first to market it with her concept, but actually, Nathan and Michael Guttelli and I had come up with, we were trying to do something that was going to be associated with the contractor coalition, because we'd wake up in the morning, I'd go running, they'd be lifting weights, and there's this stereotype in the building community that you're hairy and you're red and czech, black flannel shirt, and you drink a lot of beer. And it's like, honestly, I don't know any builders that do that and not that you can't enjoy, you know, those types of, you know, you know, stereotypes and whatnot, because they're certainly, they're out there, but I was just kind of interested. Like, there's so many people that, you know, you'd see out running before these collections. And just because athletics is a huge part of my life, ours is going to be a little bit more.

  Mark Williams [01:06:55]:

  It's just gonna be a different focus. So what we're gonna do, I had put out costa Rica or, like, Utah or the west, and I decided just so that wasn't confusing, we put it out on Instagram. To have people vote on it, but everyone just kept voting for both. Everyone just want to do all of them. I'm like, okay, this is not a helpful poll when it's, you know, 100% for both. So we're, I think we're going to do ours in Utah, and our concept is going to be like, four days. And I'm curious to get your feedback on this live. I'm going to watch your reaction.

  Mark Williams [01:07:22]:

  So the goal is you're going to get off the airplane. When you get to where we host this destination, you have to actually check in your phone. I don't want any phones. And we're probably going to do no alcohol as well. And I'm listening at more of like a, like, basically a mind body, you know, reset. And we're so used to going to our phone. I know that I am, and I try to, you know, get off the grid. I go camping, you know, in the fall of every year, and so I just feel like I want to provide an atmosphere where people can kind of just get unplugged from the daily grind of just dinging and Instagram and all this other stuff.

  Mark Williams [01:07:54]:

  We'll have a videographer for sponsors to document it all, but really, they'll be, you know, I don't care if someone can run a six minute mile or a 20 minutes mile. Like, there'll be some athletic components. We'll be just some team building. There'll be some, you know, I'm sure there'll be some fun shenanigans, but really, it's. It's going to be less structure and more just, you know, maybe some long hikes in the mountains. I I know. Like, I want to have a conversation. I'd love not to sit down to have it.

  Mark Williams [01:08:16]:

  It'd be way better if I could be, you know, walking out. In your case, you're in the jungle on the zip line. I heard some, some of your funny zip line stories, by the way.

  Allison Case Anderson [01:08:23]:

  Yeah.

  Mark Williams [01:08:23]:

  And I was just curious, what do you think about that? I mean, do you think that, that there would be a place for that as well?

  Allison Case Anderson [01:08:30]:

  Yeah, absolutely. I mean, again, like, it's like all, you know, all. Everything rises, boats. Right? Big ships rise boats. And I think the more that we can get builders together to connect on a deeper level, the better off we're all going to be. Right. And the better off the community and the clients and everybody's going to be, you know, I think mental health is really important, and I do think that, you know, a conference environment is a different environment. You know, that's kind of an educational environment wherever, you know, there could be posturing or kind of a guard up.

  Allison Case Anderson [01:09:02]:

  And I think the nice thing about the coalition summit and the retreat, but the retreat environment especially really allows you to get that guard down, really allows you to have those kind of in depth conversations where you have the opportunity to also kind of think about things. You know, it gives you, I think, having it as a multi day thing, and also where you're doing activities, it creates a more casual environment where things can kind of occur to you and you can talk to. There's not this pressure to ask every question you need to ask, you know, in that very finite amount of time.

  Mark Williams [01:09:37]:

  I mean, it's more organic, right. I mean, I, you know, I have the majority of my ideas, whether they're good or not is. I can't decide if they're good or not. But most of my ideas happen when I'm running or when I'm exercising. I think it's that free flow state where you're not focusing on something like. And I am terrible at this. Like, I need to practice mindfulness because my mind's going a thousand miles a minute. But if I turn off a podcast and just drive home in the quiet, it's amazing at how many things just pour in.

  Mark Williams [01:10:06]:

  And I keep saying I want to work on it. Honestly, it's not in my nature. So I'm going to have to sort of define it. One of the things that I think I'm going to try to do is, you know, we've created these. They're on our website, actually, these curious builders journals with actually, the hive journal. We got them. You got one, too? When we were at the first contractor coalition, I believe, but they actually kind of made a stone paper, which is super cool. But anyway, I think we'll actually do, like a journaling component.

  Mark Williams [01:10:29]:

  Like, every morning there'll be like 30 minutes where people write down their thoughts and their ideas. And again, the idea is if you can get rid of all these distracting peripheral things, both work, life, personal, you know, all of it, and just, it's not really a vacation. I think that's the one thing I sort of want to combat. Like, it's not that you can't relax, you can. But, like, did when people were coming to the build her retreat, did they, was your messaging pretty clear? Or did people think that, oh, I'm going on vacation with a bunch of women to talk? Or how do you balance, like, the difference between vacation and sort of like, this connecting environment we didn't really have.

  Allison Case Anderson [01:11:04]:

  To make the distinction. You know, I think for people who are even interested in something like this, if they want to go on a vacation, they're going to go on a vacation. I think people who want to go on a retreat are looking for exactly what it is you're providing.

  Mark Williams [01:11:16]:

  That's great. You know, I was also trying to figure out an alibi so that, you know, the people out there could tell their spouses, you know, maybe me. This is like, you know, this is not just a vacation with like, you know, I'm trying to keep it small, like twelve to 16. I think it's about the right number because I want family style dinners. You want a lot of that, you know, that more intimate environment. But, you know, obviously we're all weighing decisions with family and kids and other responsibilities that we have because did you ever think, like, when you started your company, that you would travel as much as you do now? Being a builder in Chicago, it's like all of a sudden you start your travel. The world's a lot smaller place. I mean, you're, you're all over the place.

  Allison Case Anderson [01:11:53]:

  Yeah. And especially. Yeah. It's like between the builder retreat and the build show and conference. Yeah, I feel like I'm traveling all the time. Yeah, it's great. You know, like, and I love that everywhere I go, I know somebody.

  Mark Williams [01:12:08]:

  One last question here, and I should have asked it earlier, but I have to know the answer because this is so unique on your website. You're the only builder I've ever seen do this on their website. I'm just absolutely intrigued by it. You have at the bottom a published range for remodels per foot and new homes per foot pricing. And I want to know why and what you found because I think, like a lot of custom builders, like, I hate that question, is one of my least favorite questions, and yet it's a question that gets asked by every single architect and every single client because they don't know what else to ask to sort of do some comparisons. Because how do you judge a builder or a remodeler if not asking about their square foot pricing? And I know my bias against it because it's like, you know, you don't go buy a car based on how much it weighs. And there's all these other analogies that I use all the time. But I want to hear, like, why do you have that published on your homepage, by the way? It's at the bottom of your homepage.

  Mark Williams [01:13:06]:

  What prompted you to put it there? What have you found, and why did you do it?

  Allison Case Anderson [01:13:10]:

  Yeah, I mean, what prompted me to put it there is I was spending way too much time on projects that weren't real because of price. I think I just got to, I think, you know, for a long time, it's like you see a project and it looks great and in your mind you just think, like, I can make that budget work, right? Like, I can make it work, but I can't. The reality is that I cannot, I can very rarely get projects under 300 a square foot for remodeling, under 400 a square foot for new construction. And if that's not your budget, then let's not talk because I can't do it for less and I don't want to, I don't want to get excited about a project I'm not going to do. And I just found that it really changed the types of leads that were coming in to the company. It really just improved the hit rate and got everybody on the same page quicker. I mean, that's not to say that we haven't value engineered and got better pricing or done new construction at 337 a square foot or, you know, but the reality is, is that it costs what it costs. I can't do it for less.

  Allison Case Anderson [01:14:17]:

  So I'm just going to put it out there because I have limited time. I solely do the sales for my company. There's only so many hours in a week and I don't want to be spending 1 second on a project I'm not going to do.

  Mark Williams [01:14:30]:

  Interesting. And on your intake form, do you have an ice intake form on your website where people are filling it out? Would it not sort of strain them there? Or you're just saying, hey, I'm going to put it everywhere because the sooner I can get rid, the sooner I can either qualify or disqualify a potential client. Or client I don't want to work with, the better. So you have it in multiple places?

  Allison Case Anderson [01:14:50]:

  Yes. Yeah. And also, you know, for the architects that I work with, they've started saying it too, because a lot of times, like from a referral basis, it's like clients who have interviewed multiple architects are asking those architects who they refer as a builder. And I'm normally on that list. So by the time clients come to me, I've normally been referred quite a few times. And it's like, and we just need, we all need to be on the same page with money, you know, because like, I'll give preliminary pricing and I don't, I don't charge for that. But you know, that. That takes me like 8 hours, you know, to put together that initial preliminary price.

  Allison Case Anderson [01:15:24]:

  And it's like, if you weren't expecting to spend a million dollars on a gut rehab, why were we talking? You know, I can't do it for less, you know? And that's, that's just, that's just what it is. And I think once I just admitted it to myself, I was like, well, well, let's tell everybody.

  Mark Williams [01:15:43]:

  Have you had, have you had other builders comment on it? Like I have. Just like, like, oh, that's interesting.

  Allison Case Anderson [01:15:48]:

  Yeah, I mean, you know, of course everyone hates the price per square foot. I hate it too. But it's, it's some, it's some range of value, right? It's like, okay, how much is a bag of groceries? Like, I get it, but it is. It's a good, it, it's a good basis just to wrap our minds around an idea, you know, where it's like. Because people just come up with numbers out of nowhere or from HGTV, which is like the worst thing you could ever do, you know? And so it's like people are coming with. Coming up with numbers based on nothing. And, I mean, you're right. I mean, something.

  Mark Williams [01:16:21]:

  And I usually, the way I've handled it, I like, I mean, that was a great answer. I think that's interesting. I would have a hard time with it personally because there's such a big range, you know. I mean, obviously you could always go up. So it's like, you know, you know, if there's a juicy project, you won't want someone to be like, oh, you know, they're beneath us. But then the second part would be, you know, let's say a new home. Construction could be anywhere for us. Maybe 450 to 800 sqft.

  Mark Williams [01:16:42]:

  Well, that's a massive range. I mean, it depends on what we're putting in the house. It's so subjective that it's like, it's almost sort of like, I'm not even sure, like how good the information is where you're kind of just putting a dot. And I just curious if you. Have you ever found that it scared anybody away or you wouldn't even know because they never reached out to you?

  Allison Case Anderson [01:17:02]:

  Yeah, I wouldn't really know. But, you know, I mean, I have. I would say I still have clients that reach out with unrealistic budgets anyway.

  Mark Williams [01:17:09]:

  Yeah. Because nobody reads. They're like, I didn't even read that anyway because I've usually vetted it out enough. I usually do a 15 minutes phone call before, I'll take a meeting and then that 1st 15 minutes phone call, I'll get to pricing pretty quickly and that's how I. But that's to your point, that's 15 minutes that maybe you wouldn't have even had to spend. You do that, you know, 50 times a year. It's. That's a couple days of time.

  Allison Case Anderson [01:17:33]:

  Yeah.

  Mark Williams [01:17:35]:

  Well, I want to be respectful of your time. We've obviously gone over. I could talk forever with you. It was really great to chat with you. Thanks for coming on.

  Allison Case Anderson [01:17:42]:

  Thank you for having me. Yeah, this is great.

  Mark Williams [01:17:44]:

  Well, excellent. We'll have all your details in the show notes. We'll try to find a link to the retreat page for the build her retreat as well. And we will talk to you another time. Thanks Alison.

  Allison Case Anderson [01:17:55]:

  Thanks Mark.

  Mark Williams [01:17:56]:

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