Episode 92 - Unmasking Construction Contracts: Secrets to Avoid Legal Nightmares with Karalynn Cromeens

Episode #92 | Karalynn Cromeens | Unmasking Construction Contracts: Secrets to Avoid Legal Nightmares

In this episode of The Curious Builder, Mark Williams dives into the nitty-gritty of construction contracts and business continuity with construction law expert, Karalynn Cromeens. They discuss the importance of solid contracts to avoid legal headaches, the challenges of partnerships, and how collaboration can spark new energy in projects. Plus, they touch on managing client expectations, the evolving influence of social media, and how proactive legal planning can keep your business running smoothly even in tough times.

Listen to the full episode:

About Karalynn Cromeens

Published author, award-winning lawyer, devoted leader, and seasoned managing partner of The Cromeens Law Firm (TCLF), Karalynn Cromeens is sparking change in the construction industry. This fervor did not begin with the Law Firm, however. It’s been with her from the beginning, instilled in her by an incredibly hard-working, close-knit family. To understand Karalynn’s foundation, as well as the basis of the firm, we first must understand where she came from- a community she refers to as the “Get Shit Done Crew”. This community made Karalynn who she is today, and now is who she works to protect. She deeply values the GSD tribe, and is inspired by their drive every single day.

Resources:

Find Cromeens Law Firm’s website here

Follow Karalynn on Instagram

Watch Quit Getting Screwed’s YouTube here

• Transcript

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:00:00]:

  That is the key to not getting sued on the back end. Most of my clients get sued because the homeowner has a set of expectations that is not the same as what the builder knows to be true. And if the builder doesn't come in and say, hey, no, this is how it's really going to work. Because, you know, they watch hgtv, their uncle told them this or whatever. So they have these preconceived ideas, and if we don't do a good job of telling them what it's actually going to look like, they get very upset and very fast.

  Mark Williams [00:00:36]:

  Today on the podcast we had Carolyn Crom from Construction Law and the host of Quit Getting Screwed podcast down in Texas. And it was an awesome conversation. We covered all kinds of things. I think the title of this podcast is going to be Books, Death and Caring Too Much. Without further ado, here's Carolyn. Welcome to the Curious Builder Podcast. I'm Mark Williams, your host. Today I'm joined out of Texas with Carolyn Crom with Construction Law as well as the podcast host of the Quick Getting Screwed podcast, who I was a guest on, I think episode 12025 last spring.

  Mark Williams [00:01:05]:

  Welcome, Carolyn.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:01:06]:

  Oh, thank you so much for having me on the show.

  Mark Williams [00:01:08]:

  Yeah, I feel like don't mess with Texas, since that's where you're at. I feel Quit Getting Screwed Podcast is very apt for a Texas name. Podcast. Yeah, let's start there. You're obviously a lawyer. You specialize in construction law. Why'd you start the podcast? Because I love the name Quit Getting Screwed, like immediately identifies basically that your audiences is 95% of people who have been screwed. I'm guessing they're like, ah, I should have had this podcast early on.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:01:29]:

  So I have a book of the same name and it really started with on the commercial side with commercial subcontracts. And if you've ever been in the commercial world and seen a commercial subcontract, they're terrible. And nobody knows what they say, nobody knows what they mean until they're in court trying to defend this terrible contract. And so I wrote a book called Quit Getting Screwed about how to navigate your way through commercial subcontracts. And it's expanded through that about how does not just get screwed in any type of construction business or any business at all. Right? We talk about all the things, how to run a better business, on your finances, coaching, all of the different things. Because as business owners like in construction and in any business line, they got into the field because they're good at what they do. And then very quickly you're removed out of that role and doing other things to keep the business open and running that is not in your primary role.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:02:20]:

  And just like when I went to law school and when you're training in construction, they don't never teach you how to run a business. And so these are some key things.

  Mark Williams [00:02:27]:

  It's so funny, this actually just came up yesterday in a conversation where I forget who I was talking to and basically exactly what you just said. Where most people get into you're good at what you do, you have a passion for it, but that doesn't necessarily mean you should a start a business. It should be a business or it's going to stay in business. But usually if your passion and figure out factor are high enough, all of a sudden you're a business owner of My favorite quotes is parenting is a contract with failure. I think entrepreneurship is also a contract with failure that you sign involuntarily, by the way, under coercion. What prompted you? Because you had the podcast for two, three years. How long have you had it now?

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:03:01]:

  Since 21 when I launched the first book.

  Mark Williams [00:03:03]:

  And what made you decide to write a book and then was it the podcast kind of to help promote the book and then now you're kind of an addict like everyone else?

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:03:12]:

  Yes, absolutely. And I want to share good ideas and I really think it helps learn from other people's failures. Right. And I wrote the book because it was just like nobody was saying anything about how terrible these contracts are. And I was like, why is nobody saying anything? Everybody's just signing these things, like that's the way it has to be. And it doesn't have to be that way. You should at least know the risk that you're taking, try to negotiate. And then from there it spun into a whole other world of the risk and residential construction and all over.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:03:38]:

  And so just built on, not only on the construction side, but just the ins and out of running a business and hopefully learning faster than some of us did and not making the same mistakes that we did.

  Mark Williams [00:03:49]:

  I heard recently, I think it was Brad Robinson from Atlanta, Georgia who mentioned this, the Bradford custom home shout out to him. He said that he isn't afraid of failing, but he actually tells his team to fail fast. Yeah, I, I, it's been now that my ears kind of queued on it. I feel like I keep hearing that over and over again, fail fast. And the idea is that it allows you to pivot a lot quicker so that I, I think anyone who is A successful entrepreneur has failed and learned from it. And you and I were talking a little bit before we even jumped on here. One of the concepts that I want to do for a live event is do kind of a panel event and have it losers are winners and basically invite real well known builders and designers or whoever up on stage that people would recognize that. You know, you see their beautiful homes, they've got a great reputation, but they didn't, it, they didn't land in their lap.

  Mark Williams [00:04:34]:

  You know, it's like anything. It's like Walt Disney as you know him probably didn't start off that way. And he's got an amazing biography and so on and so forth. I mean, everyone really has a story. And I would argue that you never really stop failing. I think if you stop failing, you probably stop learning. And I think the easiest example is like, look at what's happening in the space industry and what Elon Musk is able to do with, you know. But I just finished his biography recently and you know, the amount of capsules that he crashed and exploded, he learned from each one.

  Mark Williams [00:05:01]:

  Right. And there's a major payoff and essentially kudos to all the entrepreneurs out there that keep failing, but then keep staying in it and continue to improve.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:05:08]:

  So yeah, I mean, there's only growth through pain. Unfortunately. If it's working well, you're not going to work on fixing it.

  Mark Williams [00:05:13]:

  What were some of the early things that you just couldn't believe? Was it because your clients were coming to you to rework their contracts or were you bailing them out of difficult situations? Probably a combination of both. That inspired you to write that first book, Quit Getting Screwed.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:05:27]:

  Yeah. So the first book was actually I took a client to trial who had signed a. A subcontract and lost. Huge lost. And it wasn't because he didn't do a good job. It was because he didn't understand what a pay when paid clause meant. And so although he had done 120 days worth of work, good work, the GC didn't have an obligation to pay him because it hadn't been paid by the owner yet. And obviously we didn't know that when we dove in.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:05:51]:

  It wasn't till much later. And with a clause like that, there's really. You got to be able to fund the whole project without getting paid, potentially.

  Mark Williams [00:06:00]:

  Was that a commercial contract or residential contractor? Yeah.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:06:04]:

  And so that's what I was just, I was just pissed.

  Mark Williams [00:06:07]:

  Are those still legal? I know they are states. How is, how common? I mean, I don't Think you really see, I know a lot of people operate their business different than what it actually is by law or says being said that I think a lot of builders, you know, will say pay when paid, but most of their contracts, to my knowledge, don't actually say that. And then in this case, it was reversed. You represented the subcontractor. Did they ever get paid? What, did the client never pay him or how did that all resolve?

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:06:35]:

  No, because then. So what ended up happening is they couldn't afford to work. They let. They had to leave the project. They hired somebody else. The person they hired obviously cost more than what my guy was going to do for it. He breached the contract basically because they didn't pay him. They didn't have an obligation to pay.

  Mark Williams [00:06:50]:

  Him because he didn't and he couldn't finish the job. Oh, that's a real pickle. Yeah, that is a tough one.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:06:56]:

  And so that's commercial. It's a little different in residential because mostly the builder will get paid up front for the work. Right. Obviously, some states, like California don't allow.

  Mark Williams [00:07:05]:

  That, or at least like progress payments or draws or monthly draws. And you basically, we have in our contract, you stop paying us, we stop working. Right. I mean, in that sense, it's sort of a pay to play in. But the client is paying us and we're paying our subcontractors, and we're taking a big enough down payment that should a client stop, we have enough to at least cover the work in progress. Right. I mean, you wouldn't want to be, you know, and I understand. And I just had this conversation the other day.

  Mark Williams [00:07:28]:

  I was asking the client on a remodel for a 25% deposit on a $700,000 remodel. So it's pretty big. I can't build the house if I don't trust them. And they can't really have me work on the house if they don't trust me. There is a point where I don't care what kind of contracts you have, you have to trust somebody to go somewhere. And we have a great reputation. And so, you know, we shaved off 8% on the front end, which is fine. Happy to do that.

  Mark Williams [00:07:49]:

  It was really. It's more of the spirit of it. A client is going to completely say no to. Like, that's obviously a pretty big red flag.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:07:55]:

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And so, like, in that aspect is a little bit different. Commercial contractors are always working and then waiting to get paid. Residential is a little different. I still recommend a residential if you have subs Working for it to do have a contract that says that you need client approval before you'll release the funds to them. So it's not really if a pay one pay, but if it's not done properly or that they will come, that they have an obligation to come finish.

  Mark Williams [00:08:18]:

  Yeah, yeah. No, that's smart. Writing a book. I think a lot of people have aspirations of writing a book. I would imagine very few people actually do. And the few that probably do start and then don't. What was it like writing a book?

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:08:32]:

  I had so much to say. It just like I had all these different stories built up of these little provisions in these contracts. So I had a story for each of them because I live them. And like, when you read the contract in the paper, what the paper says, you don't realize what that means in real life. So I had all these situations of these different provisions in these contracts that I'd lived through, clients had lived through. So I had a story which made it really easy to illustrate. And I was very passionate and still am, about letting people know these things. Right.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:09:00]:

  Have your contract reviewed. If you're a residential contractor, you have to have a great contract, not only to protect yourself, but the whole purpose of a contract is to manage expectations. And if we can do that, great. Were a lot less likely to end up in litigation at the end.

  Mark Williams [00:09:15]:

  And I've used a contract as almost like a blueprint to educate the client. And I think very rarely, no home builder, to my knowledge, is going to want to get into a situation where they have to, for instance, sue their client, even though their contract puts them in the right. I had something actually, really recently where we have in our contract the right to photography and market our own work however we deem fit. Now I get it if a client negotiates it on the front end to take that out, but they didn't. And this person is very private. So it's not that I don't want to respect it, but it's at the very end. We did build this beautiful $2 million house. We went to go take photos of it, and she said, no and not unless I sign a contract and approve every single image you post.

  Mark Williams [00:09:55]:

  And it was more the principle, what person is going to sue their client to get photos of their. But so sometimes even if it's in your contract, sure, it's enforceable if I want to spend a bunch of money on it, but it would be more like in a calm setting to say, hey, just so you know, Mr. And Mrs. Client, like, I actually had this in my client, this is how we get a lot of our business. And we gave you really good deals because our only way to actually get work is this way. Or guess what? The way you found us was through this. Are you saying. Are you happy with your build? Anyway, it ends up being a discussion point that one should be less contentious than others.

  Mark Williams [00:10:26]:

  But everyone has got a hot button on something.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:10:29]:

  And I think you leave things in the contract that you can use at leverage. Right. So like I have a lot of remodel or clients that we build into their contract that the client has a certain time to make selections. If they don't, they can add to the schedule or they can impose a fine if they want to. That's not to say that they have to, but if things get out of hand, they can use it as leverage. Hey, guys, you have to make these selections, right? Just building in things that you're. You don't necessarily have to enforce, but it protects you or gives you the options if you need to.

  Mark Williams [00:10:55]:

  Yeah. I've often heard it described as like a shield. Right. How. Going back to the book writing, because I'm just really. Was it. How long did it actually take you? Do you just. Because I, unlike you, I don't have a specific idea of what I want to write about.

  Mark Williams [00:11:07]:

  But I think it's also this interesting process of getting thoughts out of your head anytime. And I'm not a really big journaler. I probably would benefit from self reflection, but that's what the podcast is for. Writing it down. Did you find it was hard to actually write the book? Did you. How did you go about doing it?

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:11:24]:

  So I had an outline. And so there's a. And there's a great company I'll tell you that I use out of Austin called Scribe, and they have a whole writer's workshop to help you outline it. Here's the way that should look. And then they help you edit it. And so it was really. That was really helpful in the process because at first I'm like, oh, I'm going to self publish. And then I googled that.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:11:42]:

  No, I'm not. I have no interest in learning how to do that. And I hired a company there and they're very reasonable and they will take you and they have a whole course you can take, and then they will. They keep having meetings as long as you're writing your book. And it was very helpful. The main thing it gave me was the roadmap. Right. Here's how you do an outline.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:11:58]:

  Here's the thing. When you Want to have a hook and how the chapter should be set up so you could write that way and that way you had like a map of here's what we're going to.

  Mark Williams [00:12:06]:

  Do I think and high level. How long did it take you from the time that you started to the time that you published it?

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:12:12]:

  I think I started in April of 20 because that was their first group of 20 because Covid that they did zoom the book published in January 21st. And don't be wrong, that's that was my full time job. I did it for three hours a day and so you can do it longer than that. But that was you know, it was Covid I had. We had a lot of free time. So that's what I did. That was my job. And from.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:12:36]:

  I started in April and we published in January of 21.

  Mark Williams [00:12:39]:

  Yeah, that's great. It's funny. One of my favorite books. I think it's coming up on us 25th year since he did the it's a three part series and Name of the Wind and it's a. For the geeks out there. They might know what I'm talking about. It's one of the highest rated books like in the Lord of the Rings genre. Anyway, long story short, we've been waiting for 25 years years for book three to come out.

  Mark Williams [00:12:58]:

  And when Covid happened there was all these blogs like it's finally going to get written. He's got a year, two years like just nothing. What are you doing? There's nothing else to do. You're a writer. This is like perfect. Figure it out. Still waiting. So how did.

  Mark Williams [00:13:11]:

  When you started to publish the book and did you give it to clients? I've heard several different things about actually. Oddly enough my other Steven Yock, the dirt lawyer. I've had him on twice. He wrote a book more about historical fiction. I'm sorry, not his fiction. Just yeah nonfiction. And so it was like Benedict Arnold and George Washington. And so he talked a little bit about the process of writing the book.

  Mark Williams [00:13:31]:

  Once you get it up to it's actually just getting it to a bestseller list isn't as daunting as it sounds by the sounds of it. And you self fund it basically. But then once you can say hey it's been a bestseller and then obviously you can get a little more market traction. How did you find marketing the book and what was your way to get the book out there?

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:13:47]:

  So I had a lot of help from the company that helped me help get me on construction podcast help with the social media Posts and emails to buy the book when it came out. And I really made a lot of connections that I still have today and business relationship that I still have today from doing that. That really. Because when I wrote it for the first book for commercial contractors, but it really opened up a whole world for residential contractors that I didn't even know was there. And yeah, I got on Tom Reber's podcast and then I became their legal coach. And it's the contractor fight. He's out of Colorado and he's a bunch of people. And so just things like that, one thing after another and then speaking engagements and all that kind of led from there.

  Mark Williams [00:14:26]:

  So that brings up an interesting point. In terms of like alternate revenue streams, would you say that the. On a scale from 1 to 10, 10 being just like, you know, the Twilight series or J.K. rowling and Harry Potter are successful, and one being like, it's an anchor around your neck, where would you deem the financial success of Quit Getting Screwed as a book? But let me hedge this with where it is on 1 to 10. But then how much of it is successful because the relationships came back around full circle to feed your law practice and your speaking engagements and things like that. I don't want to call it a loss leader, but I don't think of another word to think of it. And that accurate way to. I'm getting.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:15:04]:

  I think you don't write a book because you're going to make money off the book unless you're a nonfiction, a fiction writer. So, like, the income from the book directly was probably like a one. But then the income I got from speaking engagements and then people that hired me because of the book is probably like an 8. It really builds the platform and gives you credibility when you go out there to say who you are. I've done these things. I've disciplined enough to write books to try to help you. And usually like when I write a book about quick getting screwed or my new one, trust your gut that's coming out about residential contracts. I will give you everything in there.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:15:37]:

  And it's mostly you don't want to write it, you'll still come to me.

  Mark Williams [00:15:40]:

  To do it, which is, I mean, it's education, right? I mean, it's why we have jobs as builders, right? I mean, you have a blueprint. You have, you know, but I mean, they still hire a general contractor to actually implement it. All right. This episode is brought to you by pella Northland. For 20 years, I've been using Pella Windows and I couldn't be happier to call them as a business partner, a trade partner, and someone that really supports us in our quality builds. You know, we use wood windows and doors on every single one of our homes and 98% of every home that I've ever built has been a Pella window. I've gotten to know their team here locally as well as nationally, and the way that they support us as a craftsman as well as they support our homeowners with their lifelong guarantee, it's actually been a game changer for me. So when people ask me who I use, I recommend Pella.

  Mark Williams [00:16:33]:

  If you want to hear more about Pella Story, you can listen to episode one where I interview Peter and Ed from Pella Northland about their journey into the Pella ownership. This episode is brought to you by Adaptive. For over two years now, I've been using Adaptive. It's an incredible game changer. It's AI technology based, it helps you with bill pay. And as a builder, there's very few things that anger our subs more than not being paid on time. Well, those days are gone. Not only do you know exactly where you are, but you can pay people through your ACH channels, Making draws Extremely quick With one click of a button, which used to take hours, my office staff is now able to generate a draw to the bank or to the client in literally seconds.

  Mark Williams [00:17:12]:

  The thing that I appreciate the most about Adaptive is their ability to keep changing. We've given them three or four feedbacks on things that we need as builders, and within just a few months, those, they're rolling those things out. This is saving us hours per week and days per month in terms of our efficiency. If you're looking to upgrade your business, I'd highly recommend Adaptive. You can reach out to them@adaptive.com or listen to the Curious Builder podcast episode 15 or episode 80 where we dive into their origin story. Your second book was Quit Getting Stiffed. I love your sequencing here. You've got Quit Getting Screwed, Quit Getting Stiffed and trust your gut.

  Mark Williams [00:17:47]:

  I'm curious what the one after that will be a trust one again. We've quit getting screwed. We've quit getting stiffed. What is the what was the difference between quick getting Screwed and Quick Getting Stiffed?

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:17:56]:

  So Quick Getting Stiff was all about lien rights in Texas, which is something that that's how I became a lawyer. That's what I grew up doing is Lean Rights in Texas. And I've now since studied the lien rights in all 50 states. But the book is the good premise Is that I think all contractors need to know that they have lien rights and know what they are for their state. Right.

  Mark Williams [00:18:15]:

  How are they different? How are they different? I could explain what my. This would be actually pretty funny and you can tell me. So, like Minnesota, obviously, I pay my cabinet shop $10,000. I have him sign a lien waiver. Now it's all done automatically through actually a sponsor of the podcast Adaptive. They do it all automatically. And basically the, the home or the vendor signs the lien waiver, they received the 10,000 cash. Boom, I'm done.

  Mark Williams [00:18:38]:

  And it says right, right in there, this is a partial lien payment unless it's the final one and that's Bob's your uncle. Like, it's pretty straightforward. I understand from my point of view that pre lien rights have to be written and signed off by the client. So I have the master contract. So I'm protecting the lien rights of all my subcontractors. But really for myself, the bigger vendors like the lumber yard, the window companies, the real big organizations that know what they're doing, they sometimes will do a pre lien notice outside of my contract just because they've probably been screwed over the years. But I would say 90% of my subcontractors do not send pre lien notices. But I have a pre lie notice, obviously in my contract.

  Mark Williams [00:19:16]:

  Yeah, that's about what I know of liens. Where, how is my state different?

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:19:20]:

  Every state is different, right? Like Minnesota, Florida, California require pre lie notice. In Texas, on a residential job, I don't send notice of the 15th day the third month. So every state has lien rights. You can end up with a lien on the property, but there's 50 different ways to get there. Is there a pre lien notice? What notice do you have to send? Who does it have to be sent to? What has to be the lien? Where does it have to be filed? Where does it have to be sent? And so all of these different steps have to be filed to have a valid lien. Because if you have an invalid lien, it's actually worse than having no lien at all.

  Mark Williams [00:19:52]:

  Whoa, whoa, whoa. Explain that to me. Why is an invalid lien worse than no lien?

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:19:56]:

  Because if they sue you to remove your lien, not only will you not get paid, you'll have to pay the other side's attorney's fees. If you blow a sale or something like that, you could be responsible for them missing the sale. So it is a very strong remedy. But there's also you have to be very careful about the steps and doing it properly.

  Mark Williams [00:20:12]:

  Interesting. There you go. So that was quick getting stiff to trust your gut. What's, what's the new book about?

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:20:17]:

  So it's all about residential contractors and how they need to have a contract and how it's not just something the client signs, but it is really to manage expectations. Your contract should be in plain English so you can understand it, your client can understand it and go over it with them beforehand because that is the key to not getting sued on the back end. Most of my clients get sued because the homeowner has a set of expectations that is not the same as what the builder knows to be true. And if the builder doesn't come in and say, hey, no, this is how it's really going to work. Because you know, they watch HTTP tv, their uncle told them this or whatever. So they have these preconceived ideas and if we don't do a good job of telling them what it's actually going to look like, they get very upset and very fast.

  Mark Williams [00:20:59]:

  That's interesting. I think a lot of people in sales and I would consider myself in sales like a lot of the owners of companies is the classic thing. Not that we want to over promise and under deliver, but a salesperson naturally does that. We tend to embellish. We obviously are getting people excited. It's part of the DNA of being in sales. I think as I've gotten older I've realized to just be not more. Matter of fact, I still engage and excite excitement and I am generally excited.

  Mark Williams [00:21:23]:

  It's not something I have to fake, it just really is. But where I'm going with this is we have in Minnesota like a state guidelines that the NHAB here developed what normal is. 16th inch of a crack in concrete is normal drywall, this, that and other thing. And I used to tell my clients years and years ago, hey, we're, we're one of the top builders in the state. We're very high end. And you know what? This is your bare minimum. We actually do better than this. But the reason this is in the contract is if we get into a dispute that this is showing the bare minimum.

  Mark Williams [00:21:53]:

  I told that to my lawyer. I don't care if it was on the podcast. He's, you got to stop saying that because what you're, because what you're doing is you are basically saying that what is in your contract is not actually what you're doing. Let your, Let the. Don't say about minimum or maximum or anything. It's just this is the standard and if you choose in practice to exceed the standard, that's on you. But if you actually get into a fight or an untenable situation that you can't tell your client that hey, the state statute says is a sixteenth of an inch. But oh yeah, we're so much better than that.

  Mark Williams [00:22:25]:

  We're 1 16th or 1 32nd or whatever you want to come up with in the scenario. And it was really interesting advice because I used to think it was like calming the client but really what I was doing was opening up Pandora's box for them to say whatever's in their mind is what I'm being held to, which is impossible. We I often contend with my clients and I use the Ford F150 analogy which is they roll off 100,000 trucks a year or whatever the number is in a factory and they have callbacks on them. And I'm like we're building a one of a kind house outside in the elements with a team that has never been assembled before and will never be assembled exactly the same. Right. Architects, design partners, subs everyone's going to be switching here and it's amazing we get as much right as we do. And so we need a lot more grace than the black and white contract is just it's an outline of expectations. To your point, it's really educating and I often use that analogy in the first or second meeting where I meet with the client.

  Mark Williams [00:23:16]:

  Now whether they remember it or not, I can't answer that. But again it goes back to us educating the client and realizing like this is we do want to bring order out of the chaos but all construction is basically organized chaos and sometimes not even organized chaos.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:23:32]:

  Well the best of our organized chaos and just being upfront about that is yes, I'm really good at my job but this is building. There are going to be things that we don't expect and here's how we're going to handle and you the relief that the homeowner feels and when something like that does come up, oh, he told me that this is going to happen. You save credibility just being upfront about what the process is, whatever it is, because you're otherwise you're walking into a very dangerous situation.

  Mark Williams [00:23:59]:

  I How often do you have clients that regularly check in with you throughout the year? And where I'm going with this question is previously it's come up that we often go to our bankers, our financial team and our lawyers and our CPAs rather than forecasted for strategy. We're asking them for help on the back end when it's too late. And obviously you can see where I'm going with this question is that it's better obviously to plan ahead of time and have regular check ins. What I'm asking you in practical measure is how many of your clients check in with you on a regular basis and if so, how are they doing it and what are they finding?

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:24:36]:

  So usually so I offer like contracts on a flat fee in all 50 states. Sometimes clients come to me because they know that they need them and then I will do them. A lot of the times they come to me when they're in a situation already or they have a bad situation going on and they're looking for advice. And so, and then I'll walk them through that and I'm like, okay, how can we prevent this in the future? Okay, we need a contract that has these provisions in there. Right? Whatever is important to you. Right, Whatever. If you're a concrete contractor being over, hey, cracks are normal. This is what it's going to look like or whatever it is that's important to you that needs to be in your contract.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:25:07]:

  Usually once I do their contract, I'm hearing from them every once in a while just to check in, see if anything they'll give me a call, they'll send me an email, hey, this didn't happen. But I'm concerned. What can we add in if it becomes an issue in the future? So they're checking in, they're getting better, let's say that.

  Mark Williams [00:25:25]:

  Do you have anyone that keeps a biannually or quarterly check in on the books for a half hour just so that they're. No, no.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:25:33]:

  And I should probably be more proactive about getting that done, I think. Have I scheduled and told them that they need it and because I'm sure there's issues that they need to talk about, they just don't want to take the time to talk about.

  Mark Williams [00:25:44]:

  I think it's interesting because we just did our budgets this morning here before actually our meeting and I plugged in for the Curious Builder podcast. I plugged in $10,000 for lawyer fees for the year as a, as a potential budget. I think this year I spent 3,500. And the reason I'm talking about is just I feel like people respond to real numbers and these are hot off the press are like two hours old. And the reason I did this is we are, we're doing trademarking on the Curious Builder. We were launching the Curious Collective into other states next year. So there's contracts between me and my spearheads. And so I've never really done that in years past.

  Mark Williams [00:26:17]:

  It's. I've looked at hey, if I need lawyers, I just need to go get whatever I did. And then it's always over a budget. So now I it's no different than marketing or your rent or anything else. It's like a unlikely your banker usually not charging you for your time. But obviously lawyers get paid this way. It is how they get. They make their money.

  Mark Williams [00:26:32]:

  And I it's interesting because a lot of us are cost plus builders, myself included. Like I expect interior designers, architects, a lot of them work hourly. And I don't know why. It's just human nature why we think that when someone charges us hourly we have an aversion to it. Like we, they're like it's part of your profession more so than mine. Where you know that the clock is. Can you tell when people are on the phone or when in their body language that they realize like the clock is spinning and it's costing them money sometimes.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:27:02]:

  And so I'll get less phone calls. So the thing about it is what you don't like is it's unpredictable. You don't know what's going to happen. And so like in my firm, what I've tried to do is make in situations where I can make it like my contracts are a flat fee, my lien filings are a flat fee, my demand letters are a flat fee. As much as I can, I do a flat fee. Right. We've even rolled out some lien and collection subscription litigation, pricing, which is, I'm testing the waters on that because again, litigation is the unknown where I don't know where I can't give you a flat fee price.

  Mark Williams [00:27:34]:

  I mean, how could you?

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:27:35]:

  But then again you feel like you're giving me an open checkbook. Right. And that's scary, right, that you're going to be responsible for this bill. That I can't tell you how much it's going to be. I can give you a ballpark, but I, it really depends a lot on what the other side does. And so that's why you have an aversion to it. It's. It's scary because you don't.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:27:51]:

  There's no end. I don't know. I can't tell you.

  Mark Williams [00:27:54]:

  I think and I'm a hypocrite for sure because in year 20, this is the first year I've actually forecasted out and I'm sure bigger companies listening, I'd be like wow, what an idiot. I can't believe it took them 20 years to figure that out. But I'd say this, better late than never. If I'm going to build for another 20 years, God willing, I guess I'd better know halfway through my career to budget for it. And as you do different things, it seems like we need more and more, you know, help. And I just wrote down. I've talked about this several times, actually. One of my to do lists for tomorrow is I'm going to do a quarterly report with my lawyer, my cpa, my, my financial planner and my banker.

  Mark Williams [00:28:28]:

  And I've had all of them on my podcast previously and we've talked about that. But now that I'm. Now that I'm asking and talking to the audience about it, I'm like, I actually don't think I've done that now. I might organically do it, but I'd actually like to have it. It's no different than a performance review with your people. I stopped maybe a year ago of having just once a year having a performance review with your project manager, whoever. That's too far away. And so now we do three.

  Mark Williams [00:28:47]:

  We just have it a rolling every. I think it's every four or five months. It just rolls and we just constantly touching base and I. And if you need to cancel a meeting or if it's a 10 minute call or a 20 minute call, it doesn't have to be some big grand gesture. It could just be a check in, like what's happening. And I think to your point earlier, Carolyn is like, you might be in the middle of something like, oh yeah, by the way, I just heard this thing on a podcast. Should I have this, that or another thing? Or I'm working with a client right now.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:29:11]:

  Nervous. What should I. Right, yeah, right, Absolutely.

  Mark Williams [00:29:14]:

  Very interesting. How moving on just a little bit. What you've interviewed and actually look, how many total episodes have you had now? Are you. You're weekly, correct?

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:29:22]:

  Yeah. So every week I think I have like 100, 160 episodes.

  Mark Williams [00:29:27]:

  What do you take as a podcast host? What are some of the things that you learn from your guests? Because it's more than just education, I find, like myself, half the time it's self discovery as you're having the conversations with people. What are some things that have stood out for you over the last four as being a host that you didn't really anticipate when you started down this podcasting journey?

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:29:48]:

  No, I've had some great guests on. I think Mindset was brought up by a lot of people. More so than I thought about what you think, what your goals are. Probably One of the most important things is where your business heads that it's not just the business side, it's also who you are as a person. Right. And different business owners can have different goals. And your mindset of what you're worth and how you charge and all that is a huge part of the success of your business. I didn't realize that.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:30:14]:

  And that there's that at its you might be construction or it might be owning a law firm, but at its core running the business is the same. You might be doing different things, but the P and Ls, the balance sheets are always it comes down to no matter what you're selling or doing, it's all the same thing. And I think we all feel to some extent we all feel the same pain points. Right. Like marketing was, you know, the marketing strategy for business bookkeeping. How often do you look at your numbers mindset. But having a business coach, I think I had a couple business coaches on which I think is important and have somebody with ideas that's outside or being a member of a group to look at that. So those are some of the things that I've learned from my podcast guests that I've had over the years later.

  Mark Williams [00:31:07]:

  Lake Society Magazine is Minneapolis premier target market boutique lifestyle and design publication. It embodies the unique lifestyles and design of the Minneapolis City Lakes neighborhoods from Lake of the Isles to Lake Harriet. It showcases the best in local design projects by both premier builders, architects and interior designers in this area. Lake Society Magazine has the look and feel of a national publication with glossy covers, high end finishes. It's mailed directly to upper bracket single family homeowners in the City Lakes area and it's the perfect local coffee table top publication. Subscriptions can also be available through the website lakesocietymagazine.com Additionally, publisher and founder Karen Steckel has over 27 years in the local magazine publishing industry and has a passion for high end photography and quality graphics. Her commitment to quality, visual simplicity and beauty are strongly reflected in her beautiful Lake Society magazine. And you're right, mindset, intentional mindset.

  Mark Williams [00:32:05]:

  I think a lot of us have mindsets. I think I don't know if you can really be an entrepreneur without some mindset. But I think sometimes we're not aware of what our mindset is and sometimes it's family, sometimes it's a small group, sometimes it's our peers. It's hard to know sometimes who you know, is the one that knocks you over the head and it's, oh, okay, that's what I'm doing, or inspires you to refocus.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:32:24]:

  And so we can have a lot of limiting beliefs that are not necessary. You can either set eyes on something you think can't be done. And there's another thought, maybe we can. And how can we do it?

  Mark Williams [00:32:36]:

  It's this catch 22 because paralysis analysis. I think a lot of business owners can understand this, that it's not that planning isn't important, but you could plan yourself to death and never get anything done. And sometimes you just need to go. But it's a fine line. Because it's a very fine line I've had. I tend to probably be, I probably do less planning and more figure it out and get it done. But it's almost like you will things into existence with your energy. Obviously, the perfect thing is that energy and the willpower with a plan.

  Mark Williams [00:33:06]:

  Now you are really working. And I, I've shared this quote a number of times, but it's applicable now. It was advice, actually, my dad gave me when I started my business a long time ago. And it speaks to what you said earlier, that we get into our craft, you know, whether we're a builder, designer, architect, lawyer, because we're good at it. But running a business might be something different. And his advice was, you can be good at building and bad at business and you won't make it. You could be bad at building and good at business and you will make it. And hopefully you're good at both.

  Mark Williams [00:33:35]:

  And I think that is. I have gone back to that a number of times. And anyway, there's always improvement for me in both categories quite a bit, especially when you talk to other people. And I, I think business too. Well, certainly time and experience is something that's really valuable. There's a certain point of time where I should say that length of service does not mean you're better at business. And I. What I'm speaking critically of myself.

  Mark Williams [00:34:03]:

  Like I've been business for 20 years and I see builders that are out there eight, nine years in, and they're way more successful and way better business people than I am. And it's inspiring. I, I wouldn't say it's discouraging. It's more just. It's inspiring that they figuring out quicker. It also is I need to spend more time focusing on the things that I can see, the success. And success is the wrong word because I think sometimes when you say the word success, it seems like, it's a comparison thing. That's not where I'm really going with this, but I can't think of another word.

  Mark Williams [00:34:32]:

  So it's the outcome of what they're doing by the process that they're implementing. And you're like, I want some of those things to implement into my business. And because I think everyone defines success differently, maybe I should go back to. I'll ask you the question. How would you define success for your business?

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:34:49]:

  Helping as many people as possible. That's what we're in business for. And really, because I've built my business and my husband and I built his. Our material supply business, I really understand that when you build a business, your heart and soul goes into it. It's like one of your kids and your lot. All of your time and energy goes in it. And there's so many things that I know that you need to know to protect that. And so success of my business is helping people get paid, write contracts so they don't get sued.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:35:19]:

  Helping save the backbone of the country, which is the small mom and pop business, which is our running things. That's what I call success.

  Mark Williams [00:35:26]:

  Yeah. Interesting. How would you define personal success?

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:35:30]:

  Huh? So I have big goals. So I. My goal for. My personal goal for the firm is to have offices in 50. All 50 states. And so we're working on that. And I want. There's building projects that I want to do at our properties.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:35:45]:

  It's coming to the point in my life where I can do that. I've been able to. And my daughters being happy. I have three daughters. And how old? Happy, successful. So My oldest is 21. My middle is 18, and my youngest one is 14.

  Mark Williams [00:35:58]:

  Have they expressed any interest in being in business with you?

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:36:01]:

  Not really. My middle daughter may become a lawyer, but I don't think she has any interest in this area.

  Mark Williams [00:36:07]:

  And is that something you would be excited about? You want them just to follow their passions or how do you feel about it?

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:36:12]:

  I want them to be happy. So whatever that is. My oldest daughter is. She's at. Sorry, she's. She's become a mortician. She's got her associate's degree in that. She's finishing her bachelor's degree.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:36:24]:

  And that makes her happy. To help families in a time of need.

  Mark Williams [00:36:27]:

  Yeah.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:36:28]:

  And so I'm like. She went to. She did. She started one year at a traditional university. Hated it. Got a job over the winter at a funeral home. We just loved it. And so that's what she chased.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:36:38]:

  And that's what I want For I want them to find their passion, whatever it is, because if you're. If you have that passion, you look forward to going to work every day. Who can I help? How can I make it better? This is what I'm supposed to be doing.

  Mark Williams [00:36:50]:

  You'll have to tell your daughter. So my uncle was in Mortuary Science when I was a kid. And this. I haven't thought of this story in years. Probably borderline inappropriate, but I'm going with it. And I think I was in fourth grade and my parents rotted town for their anniversary. And so it was bring your parent to school day. And so I brought my uncle.

  Mark Williams [00:37:09]:

  And everyone's talking about this, that another thing. And my Uncle Dewey is a. He's a riot. He's a real funny guy. Anyway, he taught the class how to answer the phone. And I answered the phone this way for about two months after. And it was William Cemetery. You stab him, we slap him.

  Mark Williams [00:37:24]:

  And all the class, the kids loved it. The teachers were like, what just happened? What is this guy teaching our kids? But anyway, now whenever I hear Mortuary Science, I think, shout out to Uncle Dewey. It's a little sense of humor. Yeah, it's an interesting time. I was actually just at a funeral a couple weeks ago and I actually. Yeah, funerals. I've always. And really, it sounds strange.

  Mark Williams [00:37:43]:

  I enjoy the, you know, the reflection on life, the brevity of it. Family. It'd be very difficult. My wife is in the medical field and people aren't at the hospital when they're healthy. Unless you're having a baby, basically. And I think for like, nursing homes. Sorry, not nursing homes. Funeral homes.

  Mark Williams [00:37:59]:

  There's got to be. Actually, I would really enjoy having a funeral director on the podcast. That would be. Actually, you know what? They run a business. It'd be fascinating to hear how the business of that works.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:38:09]:

  They will always have business.

  Mark Williams [00:38:11]:

  They will always have business. But it's just an interesting time in life and everyone has such. They have their own emotions and they have the emotions of the family. And obviously, every funeral is a little bit different. This podcast took a turn quick.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:38:24]:

  Funerals and Mortuary Science.

  Mark Williams [00:38:25]:

  Yeah, we got. We'll cover it all.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:38:27]:

  You're planning your business with the end in mind anyways. And what's going to happen after that?

  Mark Williams [00:38:30]:

  Actually, you know what? Actually, it's somewhat applicable today. My marketing admin, Leah. We are just talking about all the things that we're doing next year for the Curious Builder Collective, Sonic Camp Bootcamp. All these different things. Things. And she's Very sensitive person. And in a good way. She's very intuitive and empath.

  Mark Williams [00:38:46]:

  And she said, she said, just out of curiosity, like, if you died, what would happen? And then I. And I was like, that's actually a really good question. I said, I know what would happen. Like at my custom home company, my project management, my team, like, they would fulfill the contracts that they have. And the Curious Builder for me is such a new business. I haven't really thought about it. And right on the spot. It was just, it was interesting to plan it.

  Mark Williams [00:39:08]:

  And so I'm actually taking. I usually take a day off in December to just get away. I'm actually with my dad. I'm going to go up to Duluth, which is a city a couple hours out of Minneapolis, and we're just going to spend a couple days just talking about the business. Get away from your phone, get away from the computer and just business plan. But honestly, I think that has really sparked a seed in my brain that's going to sit there for a little bit of. I think if you think about what would happen if your business, if you were gone, in this case death, how would your business operate? Does it need to operate? How does it shut down? It would also allow you to create a business that, that you know, that can exist without you in a positive way, where you still are around. It makes your job, it makes your business sellable.

  Mark Williams [00:39:45]:

  And most, I shouldn't say most, I actually think it is most builders, their business without them is not. It doesn't work. And so someone told me this the other day and it was pretty sobering. If you, if, if your business can't exist without you, you have a job. And if it can exist without you, you have a business. And I was real sobering because I have a job job. I don't have a business. Now, I think the Curious Builder could be a business without me.

  Mark Williams [00:40:11]:

  And we're going to make it that way. But it was an interesting frame of thinking, actually. It relates in somewhat to obviously, contracts. How have you seen that play out? Because I'm sure you've been involved with. I Forget what the five Ds were like. Death, divorce, dissolution. Steve talked about these five Ds and I'm blanking on some of them. But let's talk about death specifically in terms of how it relates to contracts.

  Mark Williams [00:40:33]:

  How often have you had clients that have come in and there's been a death either in the family or in the business and you've had. Just figure it out. From the legal standpoint, I've had a couple.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:40:42]:

  I actually have one now. And it was a gentleman that he owned a remodeling business and he had signed this deal where he was going to do all the work and then get paid. He did all the work, then went to get paid and then he died. And the people that owed him the money have didn't pay. And so now they've hired me to collect the money. It's in a situation like that the company still exists. The company's owed the money. It needs to be paid.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:41:01]:

  And so that's the way that one's going to go. As far as I think what I have my builders put in their contracts is that they have the right to cancel at any time. And obviously if they owed money they'd pay it back. Or if they were owed money, they get paid. But that would. If that. If that happened and your company and your company decided it didn't want to continue or you didn't want to continue, they could back out of those contracts without leaving a legal mess. Right.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:41:25]:

  So it just depends. The business can carry on in its name without you. If you sign contracts and you want to finish the business entitled to be paid, that's fine. When it comes to an individual that might be a little different. That's why you should always be incorporated. One of the reasons. But it would really be set if you left a plan that could be followed, you wouldn't have any problem finishing it up. Or if you wanted to set it up where if I died, you can have the contracts that are still on there and then the people that work there have the option to purchase and then pay your family over time to purchase the company.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:41:57]:

  Company. So it. There's bunches of options that you could think about or how you want it or they could sell it or there's just. There's endless options of ways to handle that.

  Mark Williams [00:42:07]:

  I would imagine most of them end pretty messy though.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:42:10]:

  They can. Especially like if you're in a partnership. That's where things will go wrong.

  Mark Williams [00:42:14]:

  Yeah.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:42:15]:

  And that's partnerships with. Even with partnerships in general in business are tough and especially if you don't have the terms and writing, then it's a disaster.

  Mark Williams [00:42:26]:

  Yeah.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:42:26]:

  If you're just a sole owner it's pretty easy. But if you have partners and if you don't have an operating agreement that says what happens when you die, then that's a real mess.

  Mark Williams [00:42:36]:

  How. What would be just your perspective on it off the cuff. How many businesses in the construction world are solopitures? So single owners versus some form of partnerships or bigger teams.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:42:51]:

  Most of the companies are single owned, usually by a married couple. Right. And there, I'd say probably about 25% are unrelated business partners. It. Those are just such a hard situation. Can you think about, like, partnerships is like your marriage is a partnership and that one, you're legal. And that's like the hardest relationship in your entire life. I can't imagine trying to have that relationship with somebody else that I'm not married to.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:43:15]:

  Right.

  Mark Williams [00:43:16]:

  That is the best. That is so funny.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:43:21]:

  Like, I run my law firm where my attorneys can make what they make based on what they bill, but I will never have partners just because I don't want to be in that situation where I have to make decisions and everybody has to agree on what I want to do.

  Mark Williams [00:43:35]:

  Yeah, no, that's really interesting. I was told at a young age that partnerships are difficult. And then yet you see in some ways you can have partnerships not from a spiritual level. What is the word I'm looking for here? Like, from a emotional level. Like right now we're working on a development with another builder. And we are not partners financially, if you will, directly and or incorporated, but we're working together with the common goal to develop this piece of land and property. And it's been amazingly energetic. And it's been the.

  Mark Williams [00:44:06]:

  I've had two difficult clients over the last, let's call it three, four years. And seeing the spirit of cooperation and seeing the optimism and working with some. Another small team, it makes. I'm a small team. I have four employees. Right. And so I'm someone who's a very social person. I need a lot of people around me.

  Mark Williams [00:44:21]:

  I get a lot of energy and creativity from other people. One of the reasons why I started the podcast. But the point is, on the building side of it, working with a bigger team is actually really energetic to me, and I love it. To your point, I don't think you. I don't know, like, what the size is your firm.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:44:35]:

  There's 30 of us.

  Mark Williams [00:44:37]:

  Yeah, that's a big. That's a big team. But to my point is you're still the sole owner, but you still feel like it could be a family, could be a team, whatever you want to call it. Do you get a lot of energy from your team?

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:44:46]:

  Oh, absolutely, absolutely. And they're excited to come to work and that we have a mission that we have, that we're trying to help people and so we have a good time.

  Mark Williams [00:44:54]:

  Yeah, no, I like that. And so I. I would tell the smaller builders or the lone wolves out there that are in building. It took me a long. Even though as a very. Someone who was open to collaboration over competition, as we often say, really understanding what that means now in understanding that you can work with other people for a common goal, I would say seek out other builders. Seek out other people that you can collaborate on projects with. And I'm sure.

  Mark Williams [00:45:19]:

  And they're unique. I'm sure some people are look thinking like how are two companies going to build the same house? I. I don't know. But I, I don't know. Maybe it's a. Maybe it's a multifamily situation, maybe it's a commercial situation. You just don't know. The easiest one of course is a shared development where you share in the development costs and then you each build your own homes.

  Mark Williams [00:45:35]:

  But it seems like there's more opportunity and it seems like people are more open to that than they were previously. I don't know if you, if that's just my perspective or would you agree that people are more open to working together than they have previously?

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:45:46]:

  I, I think so. I think it, I think the collaboration is picked up and not so much competition like it used to be, but I think the teams, the people that work for me and just people in general have changed in that relationship in that it's not just a job. Right. They want something more fulfilling and that I think that leads to collaboration.

  Mark Williams [00:46:06]:

  I wonder if it's not has something to do with information and how it's shared. Do you look at how social media has changed how we interact with each other and our businesses, both personal and professionally over the last, let's call it 10, 12 years. It's massive. And I we interviewed someone, I think it was Katie Kath from J Cath here locally in Minnesota. She's a remodeler and a good friend of mine. And she had just said that if her, when her clients come to her, if they don't know who she is already, that's a huge red flag from the standpoint that they have such an avid following. And one of the best ways for her to know her clients are her ideal client is if they're following along with what they're doing. They already know a lot about that company already.

  Mark Williams [00:46:48]:

  They know how they act, they know how they would do things in certain situations. They know their style and their vibe. And so it greatly accelerates the relationship building with your future clients because they feel like they already know you. And some companies looking on it seems and I'm not just Talking about Instagram, it can show up in. In many different forms, obviously your website and different marketing materials. It seems like some companies focus on their product and some focus on their team, and some focus on both. And I, I think that's. I don't think there's a right or wrong with this.

  Mark Williams [00:47:19]:

  I think it's what you think is right for you. But I think that was a cool comment that she made, just that her clients know her very well. It's no wonder she gets so many of her ideal clients because they're coming through this funnel of, oh, we love Katie and Jesse. This is who we're gonna. This is who we're gonna work with anyway.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:47:35]:

  I agree. And so you already come into the situation knowing who they are.

  Mark Williams [00:47:38]:

  Yeah. Yeah. How as we. One of the things that I, I just love good stories. Do you. Have you had any recently? I feel like lawyers and doctors always have the greatest stories, whether you can pull one off out of your hat. Have you had any just, like, crazy stories in your career where that just stand out? You're like, wow, this was a wild situation.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:47:57]:

  I have one that always sticks in my brain when people ask for crazy stories. So it was a roofing contractor, and he was a residential roofer, and he did this gentleman's house that did a great job. And the guy's, hey, I need my commercial building reroofed. And I can't remember what kind of building was, but it was regular shingles. And the guy's like, oh, cool. I can, I can give you a great deal because I have all of these discontinued shingles, and we'll put them up there. It'll be a great deal. Now they won't match.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:48:22]:

  Right. And. But you'll get a great deal. And so they don't sign a contract. Whatever. He puts this roof on and it looks like a zebra print roof, and the guy flips his lid, sues him. Of course he's got to replace the roof because he doesn't have anything in writing. And no reasonable person would have agreed to, like, a zebra roof.

  Mark Williams [00:48:40]:

  But the guy did agree to it.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:48:42]:

  Yeah, but not in writing. He changed his mind after he saw what it looked like.

  Mark Williams [00:48:46]:

  Oof, That's a tough one. I'm not sure that's a crazy one. That's just a stupid one. That. That one's. That. Wow, that is weird. I don't even know what to say about that one.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:48:54]:

  There's all kinds, and especially in residential construction, the thing that people don't realize is once you get into A dispute with a homeowner, it is very personal because it is their home. Right, like your commercial disputes. Yeah, we're talking about money, we're talking about defects, but it's not like it's your home.

  Mark Williams [00:49:11]:

  It's. That's what I would say the negative side of emotion is. I unfortunately have very first hand experience with that comment over the last couple years. I think from the builder's point of view, even when you're right, you're wrong. And I understand that we have laws for a reason and I do believe that we have a lot of things good there. But man, if no one ever tells you and I don't, even if people do tell you, I don't know if you can really relate to what I'm about to say until you actually go through either a mediation or a full on lawsuit, which is the amount of stress that it puts on you. That has nothing to do with any sort of financial. It's.

  Mark Williams [00:49:47]:

  There's a real cost there and I don't even know how to hardly articulate it other than you feel it. And I would say for myself personally, like, I'm a very resilient person from exercise to mental stability to being a very positive thinker. I don't care who you are, it will affect you. And if you're weak in any of those categories, it's going to even be worse. And I don't even know how you really protect yourself from that because we had another builder, actually a funny story. We won Builder of the year in 2021 here in Minnesota and this other builder had won it previously and he came up to me and he said condolences and, and he was a funny sense of humor. I'm like, what do you mean by that? And he's like, you're going to be in for one of your roughest years yet. He goes, when we won Build a Year three years before you did, it was the year, the worst year I've ever had business and sure shooting it was the worst year I'd ever had in terms of this particular client and all the mental whatever won't go into all the details obviously.

  Mark Williams [00:50:40]:

  And so anyway, what the funny part of the story is. So I've often said that and because his point was, is you've gone 18 years or 17 years with no issues. He's you are way overdue and it's just you paying your dues a matter of time. And so I joke that someday, if I ever get into consulting or we do some consulting now, it's like, I guess I'm going to look at that learning experience as, like, my education in order to advise other builders and other people, like, how to navigate some of that stuff. Because you do it is a learning process. Some of the legal stuff is actually intriguing to me. I'd never seen how mediation works before. What's wild, you get everyone in, like, separate rooms.

  Mark Williams [00:51:12]:

  And the meteor, like, goes around at these different rooms. And it reminds me of a reverse auctioneer. He's like, do I hear 100,000 over here? Okay, over. I'm going over here. I got 20 in the corner. I got 20. Like, what is happening? This is wild. We're just like, randomly throwing numbers in the air and, like.

  Mark Williams [00:51:26]:

  And you don't know who's agreeing to what. It's. I get why they do it, but it is a very. If you haven't been it before, you're laughing because you're a lawyer. You've obviously done this. It's a very. On. Just an odd experience.

  Mark Williams [00:51:38]:

  I don't know how else to describe it.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:51:39]:

  No. And I have conversations with my clients all the time that I want you to pay more than you want to pay because I don't want you to feel that sense of impending doom that a lawsuit is for years. Because I will do a good job. I can't guarantee the outcome. And honestly, if it's something reasonable, pay it and be done with it. Because the stress that it puts on you, the outcome is not guaranteed. Just the dealing with it is emotion. It hurts.

  Mark Williams [00:52:05]:

  Is it more? This is your profession. Is it more emotional when you're. I don't know. Another good analogy. I'm trying to think of a baseball analogy. You're on the team. So the analogy doesn't. Falls apart.

  Mark Williams [00:52:15]:

  Like, how. How do you handle the stress? Because I understand I'm being stressed out and I understand at some level it's a job. But anyone who loves or anyone who's good at their job is also conscientious and cares it. How do lawyers handle that kind of stress? Or is it similar to, let's say, a doctor operating in the room? Like, you carry. It's. You maybe become used to it or. I don't give me. I'd be very curious to know how you handle that.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:52:38]:

  Whiskey. Have you ever. Have you ever noticed the two places you see lawyers in. In movies?

  Mark Williams [00:52:44]:

  Yes. They're at bars. Yeah.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:52:47]:

  No, honestly. And for me, too, I'm very personal. I'm very passionate about it. So I have some other attorneys who are a little bit better at doing the job and distancing themselves from it. But for me, it's very. If I'm in a case, that's all. If I were going to trial, that's all I'm thinking about. That's all I'm doing.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:53:02]:

  And although it might not be me, at the end of the day, it still feels like it. I try to manage, but I'm going to go do the best I can. We've talked about it. I know every. The best thing that I can do to ease my stress is know that I've done everything that I can.

  Mark Williams [00:53:14]:

  Yeah, it's. Anyway, it's interesting process. Well, going. Finishing the story on the. On this, what this builder said. So he won last year, Builder of the Year. And I sent him a bottle of whiskey and I said, I went to Hallmark or Walmart or wherever I got the card. It was like a death and sympathy card.

  Mark Williams [00:53:30]:

  And I wrote like condolences on your Builder of the Year award. I understand you're gonna have a rough year ahead of you. And so we lap with. I met him for coffee a couple weeks ago and we were joking about it. But anyway, any business owner through time is going to experience some pretty difficult things. Going back to that concept of losers or winners, you do have to learn through it. And you change certain things in your contracts, you change certain ways, you deal with stuff. And obviously none of us can go back in time and our hindsight is 20 20, but I think it's really important for us to look backwards and say what went well and what didn't go well.

  Mark Williams [00:54:02]:

  And I think we've done this for the last couple years. Every time we finish a project, we sit the team down, the project manager, the controller, my whole team, because I'm a small team. And we'll sit down for lunch or in our conference room and we just say, what did we get right? What did we get wrong? And how can we improve either of them for the future ones? And I think as an entrepreneur, it's sometimes hard to put them into actionable items because a lot of it is just. I think it's okay for it to just be knowledge, like we talked about it, and you let it go into the hive. I mean, if you write up some sort of modus operandi, how to deal with every single thing. You can't go through life with a bunch of rules all the time. You have to understand the spirit of what you're trying to achieve.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:54:37]:

  Absolutely. And. But the important thing, if there's something that could have been prevented by having in your contract and updating it, because it is your contract should be yours and it should be what's important to you. And as you learn things, put them in there.

  Mark Williams [00:54:48]:

  I think the hardest thing for me is, and I know there's a lot of builders out there that are very conscientious, they want to do a good job, is early on in a job, you want it to go smoothly. It's always hard when the first day on a new home, you hit bad dirt, which is organic soil, and you got to call the homeowner and be like, got a change order. Might be five grand, it might be 15 grand, whatever it is. And nobody wants to pay 15,000 for bad soil. They'd rather pay 15,000 on a cabinet upgrade or something really cool and sexy. But, like, dirt is not on that list and it never will. It never has been. And obviously you can do soil borings and different things.

  Mark Williams [00:55:24]:

  And so the problem is you use. That's the first thing that usually goes wrong in my experience. And it can be a fairly big one sometimes. And then usually what we do is we try or I do, maybe I'm wrong. I try to soften the blow and say, tell you what, we'll discount our GC fee on this by half. We understand this is unexpected. Did technically in our clause, it's under the act of God. I'm not liable to pay for any of it, but I'm trying to show the client like, hey, let's along road, let's work together.

  Mark Williams [00:55:49]:

  And 99% of the time, it's very well received. They get it. But man, you get that 1%, you have just. You've just nicked your artery and now you turned them into a vampire, and all they want to do is suck your blood for the next year and a half. Yeah, I'm speaking as a very jaded person because only on this one particular thing, because the intentions were good. The. The point was to show them we're on their team. But they then they thought, you're in.

  Mark Williams [00:56:15]:

  The thing is, like, we're building the client's house. Like, I don't benefit when they sell the house. I don't benefit from living in it. So why am I either a financing the house or why am I building. And the clients sometimes feel like you are building your house for them. That's not true. And so anyway, understanding this paradigm, how have you looked on. Have you seen.

  Mark Williams [00:56:34]:

  Seen other builders fall into a similar trap like that? They're trying to. They're trying to do the Right thing.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:56:39]:

  And. And the one thing I can tell you is never do work for free in a construction contract. If you want to give back, find a charity. Right? Because the second you do that, generally you're going to open the doors. And then guys like to do stuff because they enjoy what they do and they want their clients to be happy, so they start doing all this extra stuff for free or the client's unhappy. So I'm going to do even more stuff for free. They don't like it. It's never enough.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:57:00]:

  Don't do it. Your value decreases, and you open the door to your value decreasing.

  Mark Williams [00:57:06]:

  So you're saying, draw a hard black and white line. Just never do it.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:57:10]:

  I'm just saying I think in that situation, most people will be like, okay, yeah, I get it. But you're also opening the door for. To be taken advantage of. You know what I'm saying? Obviously, if you do something wrong, fix it, you're not going to charge a client for it. But don't go and do other things that try to make up for that, because then they just start expecting free things. Then they don't like the free things that you do, and you got to go redo them or you get sued by the free thing that you did.

  Mark Williams [00:57:35]:

  So really, you've had people sued over the free thing they did?

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:57:39]:

  Oh, yeah, all the time.

  Mark Williams [00:57:40]:

  Well, you got to tell me this. Give me an example. This is crazy.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:57:43]:

  I had one where it was like. They were. I think it was a drainage contractor, and they made a small mistake. They corrected it, and they're like, oh, we'll throw in this gravel for you. And I can't remember where it was. Was. And. And the gravel got there and it was all wrong.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:57:57]:

  They had to take it out and redo it. It was. It was just a disaster. And it happens all. All the time. Right. And it. Those situations just continue to spiral in my experience.

  Karalynn Cromeens [00:58:07]:

  What. From what I've seen, and you're more likely to end up in a lawsuit.

  Mark Williams [00:58:11]:

  I just thought of a new. I just thought of a new podcast panel with you on it. So I'm really. Last year, one of my favorite books, and a lot of people have been reading it because every podcast host has been talking about it, which is great because it's an awesome book, is called Unreasonable Hospitality. And it is basically a book about the restaurant world and launch of a restaurant in New York about them getting their five Michelin stars and whatnot. But I feel like the construction world could use a massive dose of hospitality in how we treat people. And I, I think if you were to ask people what business has the best hospitality mindset, obviously to me it's restaurants, it's the hotels and things like that, which you would normally attribute. Which is why I think the building world could hurt.

  Mark Williams [00:58:52]:

  Could do massive leveraging with its clientele with some dose of hospitality. Everyone likes the gestures of hospitality of the mint on the pillow, or it's basically showing thoughtfulness. And I guess I would. Would challenge the listeners and myself is. I don't think hospitality always has to equate to dollars. I think a lot of it has to do with how you think about stuff. And I've shared this story many times. Maybe I'll just wrap it up with this quick story on this was in this restaurant in New York, this couple from Southeast Asia, they had never seen snow, were having dinner and the maitre d saw that and he.

  Mark Williams [00:59:24]:

  And it was snowing outside. He overheard them talking about, oh, the snow, and they had a little sun that was with them. And he went by and he said, I hope you. Oh, sorry. He told his front of staff to go down the street to the hardware store, buy some hats and mittens and a sled and come back. So 10 minutes later, the guy comes back and he walks over the table and he says maybe that cost him a hundred dollars. And in this restaurant after the meal was like a thousand dollars or whatever it was. And he said, I couldn't help but overhearing that you'd never seen snow before.

  Mark Williams [00:59:49]:

  For he said, we bought you a sled and a hat and mittens. Central park is right over there. There's a little hill, whatever. Go out with your family. Go out for a half hour. We'll have some warm treats for when you come back or whatever. I have told this story alone probably 50, 60 times, several times on air. That book is written.

  Mark Williams [01:00:07]:

  And my point is that gesture, which was a couple hundred dollars, how do you quantify the goodwill and the. How many times has that family told that story? And where I'm trying to go with this, this very poorly is just. I think my. I would like our industry to think more about the things that we can do that our clients would appreciate that don't cost money so that we can charge them for the bad dirt. So we can charge them for what we do because we work way too hard to do stuff for free. But that doesn't mean you can't give away things worth of value. And so anyway, I don't know what you're.

  Karalynn Cromeens [01:00:39]:

  I think there's a lot of things you can do that don't cost anything. Show up on time, listen, value their opinion. Right. Those are things that show people that you care that don't cost a thing but are so valuable to the homeowner.

  Mark Williams [01:00:54]:

  Yeah, we I want to thank you for your time. Or I have yet to get the bill for a podcast. It would actually be humorous, actually. That'd be really awesome. Yeah, send me a bill for the podcast. That's super funny. Making fun of you, of my guest profession. What a classy host.

  Mark Williams [01:01:09]:

  Host. One one last thing. What are you most excited for as we wrap up this year? What are you most excited for in 2020?

  Karalynn Cromeens [01:01:14]:

  You know, we're gonna have the biggest year we've ever had at the firm, expanding and helping people. The book launch of Trust your gut in 2025. So it's gonna be 2021. Five is gonna be a great year.

  Mark Williams [01:01:23]:

  Excellent. Well, congratulations very much. And we'll have everything in the show notes and thanks again for coming on.

  Karalynn Cromeens [01:01:28]:

  Thank you so much.

  Mark Williams [01:01:31]:

  Thanks for listening to the Curious Builder podcast. If you like what you listen to, please, please give us a five star rating and write us a review. It really means a lot. It's a great way for us to just understand what you like about the podcast and what we can keep doing. So like and review and please share with your friends and family. Find out more@curiousbuilderpodcast.com.

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