Episode 47 - Profits and Pivots the Key Lessons Learned Growing a Construction Company
Episode #46 | Meg Billings | Key Lessons Learned Growing a Construction Company
Meg Billings talks about her unconventional path to becoming a builder. After hiring someone to build her own home who suddenly stopped work, Meg took over the project herself with no experience. She discusses how this led her to start her own construction company and shares strategies for improving business practices and profitability that she's learned through the years.
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Meghan Billings
Owner & General Contractor MEG & CO
Nothing feels better to me than sitting down at a desk littered in plans with my red mark-up pen, yellow SharpWriter pencil, and laptop close at hand. I love to create and I have found nothing to be as fulfilling as watching my creations come to life.
I graduated at the top of my class from Weber State University as one of only two women in the Manufacturing Engineering program. I have been trained in the following 3D software packages: ArchiCAD, Catia, Solidworks, and Inventor. I can hold my own with a MIG welder and can balance a metal lathe chuck like no one’s business. I worked on the engineering team at Chromalox for two years, designing immersion heaters, before postponing my career to have a family.
My husband Tyler and I now have four kids chock-full of personality, mess, and laughter.
While designing and building our dream home and getting the opportunity to be involved with the ins and outs of general contracting, I realized how much I loved the details and possibilities of the process. I would love to be part of that process with you.
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Mark D. Williams<br> 0:00
Welcome to the curious builder Podcast. I'm Mark Williams, your host. Today I'm joined with Meg billings out of Twin Falls, Idaho. Welcome to the show. Meg.
Meg Billings 0:07
Mara. Thanks for having me. This is an honor and a pleasure.
Mark D. Williams<br> 0:11
I'm very excited. So you obviously operate Meg construction, which is a new home building, mostly construction company in Idaho, and we met in California. Why don't you tell us a little bit about how we met at the contractor coalition, because I think that was kind of a fun story for both of us. Well,
Meg Billings 0:28
um, I think we met when I was this shy New Girl With All the cool kids there, and you were ever whistling, like you own the place getting everyone's attention. If anyone doesn't know Mark has an incredible whistle, and isn't afraid to use it. So my
Mark D. Williams<br> 0:45
three, I have three, I have three kids, and they do want me to teach them how to do that whistle. I remember actually telling them that it took me like a week to learn when I was like 12 years old. And I remember just spitting a lot. And then I'm like, Can I really want all three of my kids knowing how to do it your piercing whistle, but it does have its uses. One of them was getting everyone's you know, a roomful of 50 people's attention, it actually comes in quite handy. So you know, maybe I'll maybe I'll do a side hustle. Besides the podcast and building as I'll teach, I'll teach young kids how to whistle with their with their fingers. Maybe
Meg Billings 1:17
you should keep it in the construction world, like a good job site whistle I think could come in handy for me, I think it might be turned down the speaker.
Mark D. Williams<br> 1:25
It might be handy, as I recall. So that so that was the contractor coalition, where we had Nick from NS builders, Brad from EFT and Morgan Molitor from Minnesota with construction to style I believe that was their second event was the one in California in Long Beach. Is that right?
Meg Billings 1:39
Yeah, their second one and your second one also? Right? It was?
Mark D. Williams<br> 1:44
Yep. The first one was in Nashville, which was crazy to think of that was two years ago now. And time just goes into this work, we kind of lose track of how fast it goes. And I just couldn't. There are so many questions, so many things that we learned and the networking opportunities, were just kind of it kind of opened up my world at that time. And I was like, Well, I've got to come back for the second one. And that's obviously when when I met you, how did you hear about the contractor coalition? Actually? Oh,
Meg Billings 2:09
my kids are obsessed with Cardinal crest with their funny reels, you know, um, and so they, they were talking about the, the coalition and how amazing it was, and like, well, they're going, I need to, I need to hear more about this. And just like you're saying, like, so grateful, like, it's a completely different world opened up. It's, yeah, I couldn't even say enough. And I love that you went a second time, because that never occurred to me, when I went the first time. I'm like, Oh, this is a big investment, I need to go do it will be done. Like, I'll learn all the things. But I would that first time. And just like you're saying, it's a whole new world, there's so much networking, there's so much knowledge things we changed in our business. And then you go home, and you try and put all that in practice, which is fun and daunting all at the same time. But you get in it, and you're in the process, trying to take these practices and actually put them in place in your business. And it's probably like three months afterwards, I'm like, I gotta go back, there is a reason Mark was there twice, because you have to learn about the world and then learn how to actually do it and practice it. And so yeah, I went twice. So I went down to Phoenix, to the next one, the Brad hosted, and it was incredible. And you're learning a lot of the same things, but it grows every year, but you're just digging into it, you know, like I just did it, I couldn't learn it all that first time, they said, so many things that I just, I just taking notes like a maniac. And I'll look this up again. And anyway, so grateful that I twice,
Mark D. Williams<br> 3:47
I felt like the exact same as you I mean, the first time you're so overwhelmed with all the information. And you know, I just remember taking pages and pages of notes. And, and then realizing that you almost need to book, you know, months of time after just to try to implement it. Because guess what, you know, you take those three days off to learn everything. And then you come back. And, shockingly, you have a job and you have other things that you need to do. So it's really hard to implement all those things. So I think the best advice I got was like pick three or four, which I did not do. So this is good advice that maybe someone else can apply. And, and then just focus on a few of those. But I look back now, two years since the first one of how many things necessarily if I've accomplished I mean, I have that's not the point. But like How many things did you sort of just because the knowledge was sort of taught to you, you sort of started organically adding it to certain things like changing your contracts. And I remember calling Morgan because I actually didn't know Morgan at the time. And she even though she was in Minnesota, the state that I'm in building, and I called her and I said you know it's a big investment and she said you'll make your money back in the first hour and I was like wow, that's a very bold claim. And I was like But she had me because I was like okay, well that's I gotta see that went through and she was right in the first in the First hour, they talked about some contracts. And now to this day, I've modified my design retainer. And in the way that they kind of taught us about it was it's, you know, I used to always think you had to credit the design retainer to the end build. And the thought process was simply just brought up why you are basically doing that work for free. But you know, it, you can keep it like a separate contract, and then whatever you set forth, whether it's a flat fee, or however you structure that design retainer that you keep that that's your time for the first six months. And it's not that anyway, I think once you realize a big part of it is just Owning the knowledge and realizing like, Oh, this is, as an industry, we have a lot of growth, I think, to do in terms of business practices, where I think we can learn from a lot of other businesses do.
Meg Billings 5:44
I think you're so right up until that point, I was trying to emulate off of other local builders who were emulating off of their parents who did it. And apparently, you know, like, there was just a lot of older practices, or it's almost like a culture even like, when did we think that we didn't deserve to get paid for three months of free construction? Like, what when did that become a thing? And so I completely agree with you were, I think, in the first hour, or maybe maybe not the first hour for me, I think the first hour hitting ground back at home where I changed that one thing that I learned or there's two things immediately covered the cost of it. So and, and the future, I can't even imagine what a difference it will still continue to make from where I'm at right now. But from then, we'll,
Mark D. Williams<br> 6:36
we'll dive a little bit more into mid construction, obviously, which is what the podcast is about. But since we're kind of on the contractor coalition, that it's coming up here in May in Minneapolis, so I'm for sure going to be attending. So that'd be my third time, or do you have any plans to come here for that?
Meg Billings 6:51
I think I might get divorced if I try to fit in another thing this year, but FOMO is real. I want to be there. i It's penciled in on the calendar. But it's me. It's kind of crazy this year for us with our kids. And
Mark D. Williams<br> 7:09
yeah, how old? Are you? How old are your kids?
Meg Billings 7:12
Who I've got a 15 a 1310 and an EIGHT?
Mark D. Williams<br> 7:18
Yeah. So then I have it from there. I have seven, five and three. So between the two of us, you know, we've got all the ranges, but under 20 by the sounds of it. So yeah,
Meg Billings 7:26
I Well, I've got a driver this week mark, like it's snowing out like crazy. And I've got a driver for the first time it's gonna change my life. Just just
Mark D. Williams<br> 7:35
start calling them your chauffeur. Yeah, it sounds great. It sounds it sounds fancier. Well, one of the things going back to the contractor coalition, what are some so you'd mentioned and I know you've heard you talk about it, you know, the poll plan. Explain to the audience a little bit what the poll plan is, I haven't implemented it that effectively in my own company. Since then. I know, it was really thought of a very highly we're doing one actually hear shortly, kind of a mini version of it. But in your words, explain what the poll plan is and how it's benefited you and how you use it.
Meg Billings 8:08
So we have a big focus on our trade experience. So building that team, making them be a part of it and own it in a different way than just showing up because Megan will pay you if you come. And so this has been a huge part of that. And I love it. What we do is we're about to break ground on a new house. We everyone has the plans. They've already been it. They're familiar with it. But what we do is we have everyone come to our office that's on the structural side. So excavation Foundation, and any site work that's needed up all the way to MEPS. So framing, our press guy will be there, our framer will be there. And they dig apart the plans because they've been over it and they can see the issues but they don't talk like plumbers don't talk to H back they just fight over who gets that spot in the utility room first. And Oh, true. It's yeah, it's a full out battle. So we bribed them with food. Of course, we have our Roberto is breakfast burritos every morning, when we when we do them, and we bring them all into the office. And in my mind, I thought it would take a couple hours, you know, go through it. They'll be there for four and a half hours. And it's so impactful. Like they are owning the project in a way that I could never facilitate without having them come together. They're working out solutions together. We're marking out right on the plans, who gets a spot in the utility room and who gets the spot over in our Chase running through and so they're working together come into solutions together with us there and we're fine tuning this. It's gotten better every time but we have two note takers. Now one follows the design team who who is also there so we have drafting and design also in there which is huge. So they're following the design team writing down notes for any changes, anything that's happening, we've got another note taker following production side. And we just document like crazy all changes on the master plan and in their note taking. And it's been incredible even down to like, little things like we had this client who is massive light going over their door was like the thing the house was designed around. And we got in there and because of the design team had the full design package and the electrician was there and the framers like, I've got, I've got a huge header, I got 16 inch header going through there, like you can't get a light there. And it was just as simple as the two of them talking. He's like, oh, I'll just bump it back a 16th of an inch, give you plenty of space to get that down there. And what could have been a huge problem and a terrible phone call to the client or a lot of rework. It's just yeah, that's easy. Move on.
Mark D. Williams<br> 10:56
So So he basically getting everyone together in one room, your conference room at your office, or you're renting a facility, if you need more space, or you I've often wondered about this? I mean, are you asking every single trade partner to come at one time? Are you staggering it by the hours? Are you saying hey, this is going to be rough in schedule only? So it's H fac, plumber, electrician, low voltage, maybe insulator? How do you break up all the people because one of the things that led to the insulator? And you know, he shows up and he's like, Well, I want to talk it's no different than doing like a bid walkthrough with a remodel, you kind of want to stagger them a little bit so that they're not all asking the same questions at the same time. So you can effectively communicate how have you handled just the amount of people as you're trying to pull through this?
Meg Billings 11:37
Yeah, so we only go up through NTP so installation won't be there. Our excavator will usually fall off early excavator flatwork. They just want to make sure site works good, everyone's good with that they'll pull off a little bit early. But everyone in between seems to stay like our foundation guy who wants to know if he's blocking out anything extra for the MEPs. And that kind of stuff. i He's probably the next one to leave, but he's there for a good while. And he's talking to each back and plumbing and making sure that we're we're blocking out for everything that they need. And that he's talking to our truss guy about the floor trusses to make sure that where he blocks out that trunk is hitting there so that they can continue to run those lines. So yeah, we try and keep them all together. It's been really great. So I mean, it's about 1010 people plus our team. And
Mark D. Williams<br> 12:33
are you doing this with the permit set like already applied for? Are you doing it right before you go in for permit? Like is in I assume is this while you're under contract? So you've navigated past the design retainer? Or is this still part of the design retainer, you're kind of facilitating this as well. We've
Meg Billings 12:48
done it one time, a little bit early, and I didn't like it as much because constructions long, and they do a lot of houses. And so those things, I feel like some of the information got lost and some of the steam behind it got lost. So we usually do it a couple of weeks before breaking ground.
Mark D. Williams<br> 13:06
Okay, have you ever done one where you already broke ground, and then you kind of do a speed up on mostly just mechanicals and plumbing like it, you know, concrete 30 set, and you're kind of sitting like we're in a cold cycle right now. Yeah, I don't know how cold it is out there. But it's been pretty cold here. So our framers have, you know, they're not starting here for a couple weeks, and so on. I'm thinking now that we have the space to do it that I think actually probably will do one with the, you know, the framers and you know, all the saps. And so that's why I'm thinking about doing it in a week or two. So these these questions, are you going to inform me?
Meg Billings 13:38
I liked it. I liked these specific questions. Yeah, we actually that one that I told you, we did early, I felt like some of the steam and knowledge got lost. And so we we did our read a redo. And then he went with just our MVPs and our frame are there. And so just running back through everything, making sure that everyone was on the same page and committed to the plan that we had decided on and it was really effective. It was not nearly as long as it was Yeah. All
Mark D. Williams<br> 14:08
right. Well, I'll circle but I'll circle back with you. Are you going to the builder show here in February end of February? Yeah,
Meg Billings 14:13
I'm actually speaking with Brad and Oh, no. Oh, no, you're gonna have to edit this out. All their view?
Mark D. Williams<br> 14:25
Oh, you know what? I'm sorry. I did see that on social posts. Oh, that's great. What's the topic of what day and what's the topic off to stop buying in and listen?
Meg Billings 14:32
Yeah, it's profitability. And I'm really excited about it. I think there'll be a wide range like I've had to learn a lot of the hard lessons in the last few years on the profitability side and really fine tuning things and focusing because before that, it was just like, oh, shoot, we made a mistake. It's alright the house will sell more than what we planned on anyway, just keep going and and so really, learning those lessons of fine tuning and digging in So that's been awesome.
Mark D. Williams<br> 15:01
Right? That's amazing. How are you doing? Most of your stuff has fixed bid or cost plus,
Meg Billings 15:07
we do usually fixed if it's under a million costs less if it's over.
Mark D. Williams<br> 15:12
How have you handled, you know, speaking of profitability, and I've talked about this in the podcast as well, trying to fix it now. But, you know, this was brought up as well, at the contractor coalition, you know, the difference between margin and markup? You know, and how have you navigated that I understand on fixed bid, it's a little bit easier, because obviously, you can navigate those numbers internally, before you present it to the client and at the client accepts it, you know, it just kind of is what it is. And if you can make or lose money during the build, that's the risk that the builder takes. And I assume on a fixed bid, you're probably going to charge me Do you charge a higher percentage when you're doing fixed bid? Because you're taking on more risk? Or do you put some internal contingency lines in?
Meg Billings 15:52
Both? I'll charge about at least 5% more on a fixed bid, and then those contingency lines will for sure be in their range? Okay.
Mark D. Williams<br> 16:00
Have you had? And do your clients ever ask you like, Hey, will you do or is this like, once you go above a million, they don't have a choice, and you don't really even get into the specifics with the clients about, hey, it's gonna be 5% more, if you do a fixed bid versus a cost plus,
Meg Billings 16:15
I have been, it's gone a long ways, just presenting something as this is the process. I feel like a lot of clients come in, and they it's a big scary experience. Like they don't know all the things and it's all their money, you know, like, it's like a high stakes and they don't feel empowered. And so I feel like if I give them too many options or explanations, then it starts to muddy the water, or they start to feel like oh, no, am I making the right decision? That's funny,
Mark D. Williams<br> 16:43
I'm actually thinking about switching back to fixed bid, trying to make the process for the client and their experience to be smoother. I feel like for a long time, I mean, Cost Plus has served us well, especially during COVID. When pricing, you know, was escalating. We didn't need escalation clauses, because it was in the Cost Plus model. So it was fine. But I find that it used to be when I first started my career I've been building for 20 years, the first let's call it 10, or 12. You know, it was always like the boogeyman, like you were afraid as a builder to show your clients what you made, because but you almost sort of validated their fear, like they thought you were making more than you actually were. And then once you kind of own that message like Well, no, we're a business, we have to make money. Here's what we're making there. Every single one was like, Oh, well, that's not really that much. And you're like, I agree. And so that and so then it kind of you help, it helps you own your story in terms of being cost plus, but you know, in the last couple of years, I've charged the same for cost plus and fixed bid. And I would like to go to fixed bid for a variety of reasons I think the clients can have a better experience with the way it was kind of shared with me is a little bit more like insurance, like, you know, if you have a high deductible, you know, you are taking on more of the risk. And if you have a low deductible, you probably your premiums going to be more but you have less risk. And I feel Do you feel like that analogies about sums up the difference between fixed bid and cost plus? Yeah,
Meg Billings 18:05
100%, I really do love that I there's definitely where the client is a little more fixed on their budget. I don't want them to get into cost plus, if I can, because of that thing where I'm like you, you just need to wear Cost Plus, you're like, yeah, if you if you want this, I will do whatever you want, I'll do whatever you want. But in fixed price, you're like, Okay, we've got to maintain this budget, this is where you're at, this is all you can do. And so kind of feeding those two different clients has been good for me or and I guess that's kind of why I'm still doing both is I feel the same way as you are sometimes it fits to help the client and sometimes
Mark D. Williams<br> 18:50
I think the situation, don't you feel like personality wise, there are certain clients that are better for some than the others, like I find that like, you know, business owners like they get it. And you know, throwing showing them the full swarm construction, same in all 200 line items. And, you know, they understand it like running a business, but like what other business, I can't think of a single business. Like if you go on and buy a truck, or a Ford or a car or whatever. I mean, you're gonna ask Ford for an itemized list of every part that went into your car. I mean, that's crazy. And so like, why is that considered normal and building on a Cost Plus model that you, you know, you show them every single thing all to really justify what they already know, which is like, we like you, Meg, we want to build a house with you. And like the only thing you can really do through this whole pricing exercise is maybe lose them. Like they already liked you. You're just getting 200 reasons for them to say, Well, what's this all about? And what's this all about? Like? I mean, do you agree? Like, why is it that building like hey, here's every single thing that we're going to do on your house and you get it almost like we give them permission to run our business, which causes a lot of friction. There
Meg Billings 19:55
is definitely room for that. And definitely client It's, I don't know, I'm getting better reading the clients where we just had a prospect come in. And she's like, Okay, I need to see all all the line items once a month, let's do this report weekly. And of course, we offer that, like, it's all on buildertrend. You can get it anytime. But both Mandy and I turned to each other like, oh, like, you just, you just kind of start to get a feel of what clients are going to be really scrutinizing in that. And just, it's just paperwork, like, how much time are we going to be working on that side of things.
Mark D. Williams<br> 20:36
I mean, it's funny because Brad love it was so into cost plus, like he'll only do Now granted, his houses are significantly larger than mine. And maybe at that scale, you have to because the things are taking so long, you know, if you're taking three years to build the house, or however long some of those monstrous homes are, you know, that might, that might I could see why that would be prevalent. But I also think just like, man, every single time, just the amount of paperwork, it's almost like you should need a line item in your sworn that has like paper management or like file management. It is it is arduous, I mean, anyone that that has done cost plus knows what I'm talking about, it just takes a lot more work. And not that you're not doing it as well. But it's, it's almost like you when you do documentation you want to be client facing, it'd be like, if you're going to do a bid or a presentation to your client, like it's going to be polished, it takes a couple hours to really polish off of it and make it look really nice versus like, you know, bullet notes or some sort of internal documents where you don't need to be quite as you know, market friendly, if you will.
Meg Billings 21:35
Yeah, exactly. And we do have a line item that gets put in here, which got doubled on this house. So that's,
Mark D. Williams<br> 21:44
that's it, I'm making a note right now I'm adding an admin admin line. I mean, what do you what are you can inform my sworn like, what would you charge for admin on something like that? Let's say the house is going to take a year, like what are you allocating to just let's call it cost plus paperwork? I mean, obviously, you're I mean, this would be this is a hard sell. Because if you charge you know, let's just pick a random number, let's just say 15% Is your GC fee, not including all the other things that are on your sworn your if you do a cost plus bid to a client, and I sit down with them? And I say, here's all the bids, and they're gonna say admin, why? Why is there $5,000 for admin? And you're like, well, because you picked a cost plus project is going to take a lot more filing in management to do all these reports for you. If you don't want to do this, you can go back to fixed bid. But then if I were them, I'd say, Well, why isn't that included in your fee? How would you answer that question?
Meg Billings 22:39
So we really try and focus on like, what has to happen to make the house come about where like, insurance is the same way, like, it's a weird one for clients. I'm like, I don't pay that insurance money unless I'm building this house for you. So in a $4 million house, that's a big price ticket on insurance that I don't want to pay for like, and I wouldn't if I wasn't building the house. And that's been a big lesson for me, like sorting through those things like what really is a cost of goods sold above the line, what is general, you know, like, just admin is gonna happen, I have to pay for admin. And that's not just for that house. But where, I don't know, like an example, we have some clients that want to do change orders constantly. And those take so much time, just like you're saying it's client facing. So it has to be perfect, it has to be pretty, as, you know, professional. And so all those things go into it. And we we got through this house on like, I think we did 200 change orders. And if each one of those took, you know, an hour and a half, even if it was something simple, like they're just switching out a light fixture, it still takes time to do all the paperwork on that side of things. So we've actually started doing a change order fee. So $350 for every change order, regardless of how big or small it is just to cover all the time that goes into redoing that in our design books, getting that out to all the trades, getting that to the client for approval, job site meetings with them to go over it all those things take so much time where some clients will never have a change order, which is crazy to me, and I love it. But others it's it's exciting for them. And so having a So
Mark D. Williams<br> 24:29
to clarify that. So when you have admin paperwork, so are you budgeting this app, let's say your average home might have 50 to 80 change orders. So you're saying 350 times 80, and you're putting in a budget for it? Or is the change order fee, in addition to this admin line that you would have, I'm really curious because we used to have a change order fee. We sort of waived it because clients hated it, but that was back when we had the fixed bid type of thing and I mean what you what you say makes total sense that I think explaining it differently, just like it takes a lot of time of procedural work to chase down these change orders. I think I think just really polishing that story, I don't see why a homeowner would agree that that's going to take time, because I think sometimes there's, you could be upfront about it and say, like, hey, the change order fee, every time we make a change, or it's, you know, $200, or in your case, $350. Or you could just, you could put in the price, because they have to agree to it, right, you're gonna say, Hey, you want to you want to do, you know, crown on your main level? And let's say the cost is 5000. You know, you add at that time $350, to whatever you're doing, it's just in there as the lump sum. I mean, is there a pro and con to that,
Meg Billings 25:41
um, I like the idea if it's something that's 5000, but where it's just a light fixture, and they're doing it one at a time, so I think it's, it's more to dissuade them, we actually is not budgeted in this is totally separate, it's on change orders only, and on the first, maybe three to five, depending on the client, or how far how much trouble it looks like we're gonna have with this will actually put it in there. So on the first few, it's $350, change order fee, a little explanation that we can your candid we use and so we'll put that on there. And then we'll say wave by filter. So it's,
Mark D. Williams<br> 26:26
yeah, you're prepping them. That's actually that's a really smart I like that. I mean, the other the other way to do it is you know how like recessed cans, they always go over and recessed cans from adverse honest, you know, electoral walkthrough prior to start, right. So, you know, let's say your home has 40, recessed cans, sure, shoot. And by the time you do the electrical walkthrough, you know, you're gonna have 50 or 60 cans. And, you know, they understand like, 40 were included, and I added 60 Makes total sense, they get it, you could almost say, you know, based on the last five years of building, the average client does X number of change was 25. We will we will include in our price 20 change orders. After that there will be at $350. apiece, what do you think of that idea?
Meg Billings 27:06
I actually kind of liked that. I think anything.
Mark D. Williams<br> 27:11
Sorry, you could set whatever number you wanted. You said you're gonna do five? I mean, it could be five, it could be 20. It could be whatever, you could adjust that based on what you think the client is going to do, too, right?
Meg Billings 27:20
Yeah, for sure. I do think we're a little more expensive on that. Because we do have in house design, like the interior design. So our admin time is also the design, design teams work on it, and then getting it to the construction side and our side of doing it.
Mark D. Williams<br> 27:36
How would you handle an allowance in terms of change verse because the way I usually handle change orders is let's say you have a $30,000 appliance allowance. And then you select, you know, your wolf subzero, or whatever you're you're doing for your appliances. And let's say it comes in, not this case over because obviously over you add your your margin on top of your change order fee. But let's say it comes in under 25,000. Like, obviously, in a Cost Plus model, you're crediting them the 5000, are you still charging a $350? Change Order fee on that, because they still have to make because I'm just anticipating an argument. Yeah,
Meg Billings 28:12
so that wouldn't be a change order to us that we go through we heavy heavy load are pre construction, all design choices are completed and signed off, usually around Foundation. And so it's all really early. So it would be like, they pick their whole appliance package, we order it right away, so we can lock in their price and really protect them on that side of things. And then they come to us and say, I don't want that one. I really wanted the sub zero. I should have done that then. And so now we're having to go back to Ferguson, hey, will you return this? Can we switch this out? What other models do you have? And so, I
Mark D. Williams<br> 28:50
mean, that makes sense. I mean, that does seem to be in the spirit of what and allowances, right? Because you don't want to penalize them for actually making this election. I agree with that. And we've never charged a client a change order fee for an allowance thing. But obviously, to your point, you know, hey, I want to add a deck off the owner suite. I mean, obviously, the change we're in sometimes they get to your point, they get so big, it almost seems like sort of sort of included. So let's say someone has to do something big like add a, well, let's just use this deck example. Let's say someone was to add like a $30,000 deck, would you charge them a $350 fee on that? Would you just waive it and then include it in kind of your lump sum? Because it seems like once you get that big, it's, you know, I'm saying? Yeah,
Meg Billings 29:29
I don't know, you do it just to keep consistent. So it's training and always there or pull it? I don't know, it'd be super easy to just pull it off of there. I thought that ought to consult Mandy on that she makes all
Mark D. Williams<br> 29:44
my time decisions. I'm gonna be sitting in the front row at the International builder show asking all these profitability questions. So I'm just giving you a sample. I promise not to whistle. I'll be answering some of those questions. I mean, I really was diving into that because I used to get had some great insight on that. Moving here to uh, it's funny, we're doing this this interview completely backwards. At some point, we'll talk about what you actually do. But I wanted to go back to one of the things. So you've done the poll plans, you've obviously learned a lot about profitability from from education. Are you in a builder? 20? Now? Yes, tell me about that. Because they talk, you know, Nick and Brad, talk so heavily about the build 20s I've interviewed, I've had the hardest time getting on their schedule, the group that I've matched with, because you have to go to the international builder show, you know, interview, you know, those people in the room, I actually think maybe you and I were in the same time, right. And I found I found a group I really liked and I want to go with them, but they don't schedule far enough advance on my schedule keeps filling up. So now it's, I still haven't even been able to go to one. And so I'm gonna bring, I can go to one. But to your point about, you can't come to the contractor coalition in Minneapolis, because you know, your husband might leave you. Between the podcast and the builder, 20. And some of the other initiatives I'm doing, it's turns out this little tiny, small little local builder in Minnesota, and same with Twin Falls, all of a sudden, you're going all over the country, because our network has expanded. And I'm sure sponsors are like, Hey, I thought we married a local person that was going to be home at five 530 for dinner. And you know, why are you? Why are you gone on weekends? And if you're doing brand sponsorships, like why are you traveling to go do video content, you know, across the country, and you're like, you know, it's just kind of the new world we live in. But tell me a little bit before we go into some of that other stuff. Tell me about your experience with the builder 20? Because I'm very curious.
Meg Billings 31:36
Yeah, it's one of those things again, that I didn't even know it existed till I went to the coalition. And that was one of the things that they brought up and taught us about so I never would have known to like sprint down the hallways with you guys to get to the builder 20 interviews and scan the length on the wall to see what what availabilities there were and yeah, I would have had no idea. And it's incredible, it is really tough. Like the interview process, you're doing multiple interviews before you go to your first one. And that's a three day interview day and night. And it's like jam, just like the coalition. It's just like 7am till 11pm There is just like, and you don't want to miss anything you like, like I could leave and go home, but they're talking about their cost plus method. And it's just everything is so transparent, like anything you've ever wanted to know that you couldn't ask like, they can just like blankly say, How much did you make in revenue last year? How much did you make in profit? How much did you like, it's just like, all that nothing is off the table. And it's, it's incredible. And they it's like a family of people that like really, really want you to succeed. And they're doing bigger and better things in you and bringing you up and you've got a go buddy, and you've got all this accountability might my first one was the financial meeting, which was petrifying, they, like you have to give all your financial information. It's up on the board, you're compared right next to everyone else, and just roasted by the accountant. If but it's incredible, because now I know, oh, my overhead percentage was way too low. That's why I was drowning. Like, I thought I had to do it all because everyone local, it's just him and maybe his wife helped out with stuff. And that's that's the team and I am trying to do these different things. And I was drowning and didn't realize, oh, there's there's a reason you're drowning. You need to hire some people. You can't do all of this. And so it's it's been incredible. And yeah, just like are saying like they really want you to succeed. One of them did. kick the habit, and they were just like all cheering and clapping. And like it wasn't even builder related. But it really does become a team. And then you just have that resource all I can send off a question anytime you get like, five immediate responses from incredible builders. So i i Can you tell him a little bit geeky about this? I really do love it.
Mark D. Williams<br> 34:24
I'm envious. I want to be part of a part of the group. I just need to find my group and get in with them. So hopefully this spring one pays off. Yeah. Reach out to them again. What you know, we talked a little bit about I just referenced it, you know, brand partnerships. You know, I was down actually Brad and I were down shooting a pillar Ambassador shoot for Pella in was a June or July. And it was so cool because you were there. And I it's funny because Brad came over and he goes hey, guess who's in the conference room over there. I was like who and you're like Meg Billings. I'm like oh, I said cure get your camera. You got to film Yes. And so just completely spur the moment. I think I sent you the video after I just came busting into your you know, I don't know what hopefully you guys were doing anything. Like, I just like ran over and gave you a big hug but I think really just speaking to the community that is out there when you find people that are passionate about what they do, but just you know, good people, and it was just so fun to see you in an unexpected place.
Meg Billings 35:22
Oh, what are the chances I still can't get over it. And I'm from Alaska. And in Alaska, we're not only great huggers, like our like forte, and I always get teased. Anyway, the team got a hold of that video had it up on the big TV in our conference room and they were critiquing my hugging. Oh, funny.
Mark D. Williams<br> 35:44
Did you did you get a passing grade? Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 35:46
I did. Yeah, it was.
Mark D. Williams<br> 35:51
It was impromptu. See, there was a big bear running at you. And you're like you harness your internal ask, I can stab him shoot him with a sawed off shotgun or hug. Or so thanks for hugging the beer. Well, out of curiosity, where we're in Alaska. Where are you from?
Meg Billings 36:04
I'm in Anchorage. And then Kenai Peninsula? Yeah.
Mark D. Williams<br> 36:07
My sister moved to Petersburg got to college. She's a hydrologist. And yeah, it turns out it rains five times more than Seattle there. She called me like after a year of living up there. And she said she sleeps with earplugs. And because it rains a lot, it wakes her up. It's like, whoa, that's intense amount of water. And then I have family that lives in Juneau as well. So I love Alaska. But I've not actually been up. I've not been up to like my dad climbed part of Denali years ago when I was a little kid. And so we want to I do want to get up there and explore a little bit when the kids are older, maybe do some mountaineering. You gotta go. Tell us about your story. I've heard it. And so I want couch it but you're becoming a builder story might be one of the best builder coming builder stories that I've ever heard of. So I'll preface it with this, that you hired someone to build your home. And tell us what happened after that, because it's a pretty amazing journey to where you're.
Meg Billings 37:04
So I did manufacturing engineering. So I got to learn Revit and ARCHICAD, all the 3d programs. So I was so excited to design my own home. Like that was all the excitement, this is gonna be our dream home, I pored over those plans. Just every detail. So excited. And we got our foundation in. And all of a sudden, our builder went quiet. And he is the best guy and he is doing fine now and has anyway we love him. But he had a medical thing come up and he was just gone out of it like no contact. And so I now I know like there were probably some other steps I could have taken. But in my mind at the time, like it's me or him, this is gonna happen. And so I just started catching the guy that was there asking a bazillion questions and then asking, Hey, who usually comes after you when this builder is building? So I just started generally in it. No license? No, no, nothing. I luckily he like paying everyone.
Mark D. Williams<br> 38:16
So are you speaking of that? Were you were you still paying him monthly? You had given him a large payment? You said that he was paying them? How did that work?
Meg Billings 38:24
Um, so I had a construction loan. So it was still pulling the drawers? No one complained. So I think all that kept moving. But I find out more. This is the first time I've talked about that one. Yeah.
Mark D. Williams<br> 38:42
I mean that you don't be really interesting. So I imagine a number of those trade partners. You still work with now within your company, or I'd be interested to hear Do you ever talk back like, hey, because how long have you been building now?
Meg Billings 38:53
So that house was like seven, eight years ago? And I am five, six years into building my own license.
Mark D. Williams<br> 39:02
It'd be curious to know Yeah, you just I just have been kept building. I hopefully the other builders you can find a builder to pay your bills, you might be onto something No wonder you're teaching about profitability. So I think my favorite story I heard because I listened to your interview with Brad about you know, you were like you said you knew you had a problem when you were like in the crawlspace answering emails was that to get away from the kids so you could actually answer the email so like, you were a mom of four I assume you either had a job or you were staying home with the kids but like how did you manage all of this stuff and also become a builder at the same time?
Meg Billings 39:41
i Well, you definitely have to love it. Like building isn't easy. And I loved it, like grew up around it not in it but around it doing things and just the creative side of it. I don't know I loved it from the very beginning. So there has to be that there but I spent probably three days a week at Chick fil A, in the back corner with my laptop and all my kids in the play what he called the little playground thing. And that was that was my office, and it worked out really well. There'd be new kids every time so they get new friends. And I'm sure they got sick all the time because of it, you know, but it was, it was really a great learning process. And it was insane and crazy and really hard. But I loved it. The crawlspace that came later when I realized I should probably hire someone if I'm hiding in the crawlspace right now, like it's pitch black just on my phone trying to catch up on emails before I get in trouble with one more person can't can't show my face up there because they'll start asking me questions again. So I'll just I'll just stay down here, rest of my head on a good footing. And I
Mark D. Williams<br> 40:56
mean, that's an amazing store. I hope you've leveraged that with like brands. And I know you can talk to me a little bit about some of your brand deals or some of the stuff that you're trying to pursue, I'd actually don't know about them. But I've heard that secondhand that you're kind of going down that road because if this tells me one thing about you is that you have a high degree of perseverance because I'm thinking about like, you know, something breaks, like especially in the beginning, this this is almost a key because I get if it's only foundation, this would be like you're on the runway, you're gonna like leave for you know, New Zealand. And you know, like, the pilots are like, yeah, we're gone, we're sick. We're gonna leave and everyone that airplanes like in Meghan's like, I'll fly the airplane, that's fine. You know, if you get if everyone can maybe, you know, do the food service, I just love just your attitude of just getting after it and finishing it like that was the only option was to go through it, it kind of reminds me of like, you've heard the stories of like the conquistadores of old where, you know, if you're gonna get the if you're gonna get your your people really motivated. You burn all the ships, and you got to march across the land that was kind of like you, you're just like, well, this is the only opportunity. So who's coming with me? Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Meg Billings 42:01
Oh, man, but I never would have gotten this. I love what I do so much. And if that experience had enough happen, I don't think I ever would have stumbled into this industry. Like I, I had my engineering degree, I probably would have pursued something with that. And I'm so glad that it happened the way that it did. And so glad that those trades respected that builder enough to keep plowing on along with some random girl calling out of nowhere, like, hey, hey, you want to frame a house? I don't know anything. But I've got house, you can frame this.
Mark D. Williams<br> 42:38
What's the art of curiosity? What's the population of Twin Falls?
Meg Billings 42:41
I'm like, 80,000. around our area. Yeah, we're pretty small.
Mark D. Williams<br> 42:46
Okay, that was gonna be my question. Like, it's it, you know, with that being in mind, you know, is it a smaller community, so there'd be more likely, I mean, I guess being a bigger community have more resources to help in a smaller community, there might be more familiarity, and more of, hey, this is in our backyard, we're gonna do this together kind of mentality.
Meg Billings 43:07
I think a little bit of both. And I think it's kind of it affects your career, for sure. Like, it was easier for me to get my name out there, because it was a smaller city. And I do think that there was some of that let's pull together because it was smaller. I didn't know any of them. Like this was all there was no connection at all. And they think there's just there's some good people out there. And then But then on the flip side, now I'm growing and we're building these bigger homes, but I'm not in these this big city where there's the clientele coming in, you know, all the time with those. And so we're kind of filling that that for it was super great. Starting out. And now like we're growing and wanting to what are
Mark D. Williams<br> 43:49
the main industries of Twin Falls? Do you have vacation? People coming to the mountains? Is there skiing nearby? Or what? Why didn't why are people living in Twin Falls,
Meg Billings 43:57
and food were the Silicon Valley of food is Twin Falls. So we've got lots of factories and all of that. And this this area, we do have Sun Valley, which is really close to us, which is the big ski, ski town. So we may, we may end up there sooner or later, but I'm making sure all of our foundations are really good before we expand. And
Mark D. Williams<br> 44:20
when you first started, I think you you had said you built like five homes on spec and then you started building customs after that. Were those more in their starter? Like what price range with those homes in and kind of where are you at now?
Meg Billings 44:33
Yeah, they started around 502 i My last spec was just under a million. And I love doing spec homes. Mandy's my designer partners, she had like full control, create full creative control. And there is no client calls late at night and stresses you know where I'm like, oh, no, I gotta, I gotta figure this out before the morning and get back to them. So we we did really enjoy that it was nice learning to like I never would have taken on a client for my first house, or my first floor, it's
Mark D. Williams<br> 45:09
kind of it's almost kind of hard to write because you mean, it's hard enough already to talk about impostor syndrome, right? Where it's like, after you've done something long enough, you know, you're supposed to be a professional, but like, you know, I've been doing this for 20 years. And while I guess I am a professional, it's still like you still, you still find ways to learn so much more that in some ways, you don't feel like a subject matter? I don't know, if you I wonder if anyone ever feels like they know it all? I'm guessing the answer to that question is no. But I guess where I'm going with this is like, as a spec home builder, it probably not only is easier, but it's also just going to be more seamless. Because Can you imagine have to do a custom build for a first time client. And they'd be like, you know, what is this? Like? I don't even know what that means. Or like, you know, I mean, that's not exactly going to be a reassuring thing. But it's kind of a catch 22. Because how do you get experience if someone doesn't hire you? And then your case? You obviously did it on spec?
Meg Billings 45:57
Yeah. Which went super well, we love that. And then the interest rates hit, and I'm like, oh, that's that's how builders get in trouble. They get really cocky, they put in a bunch of specs, and then something changes. And so luckily, we had been doing like one client at a time for the couple years leading up to that. And so we had already started some of those processes with clients and figuring out that system. And it's, we're fine tuning it a lot. But we did, we switched all the way back to just custom or not that we switched to client based building, and just now starting to start out first back in a while. And
Mark D. Williams<br> 46:40
when you did those originally, those were that was just you were taking, I assume you had to do personal notes, because you didn't really have a business or a book of business. So you just probably put your own money up and went to a bank and said, I'm gonna build a home and here's my business plan or whatever, and you just borrowed whatever the interest rate was on a month to month basis. Yeah.
Meg Billings 46:56
And they you know, you're new, they don't they don't trust you. You don't have any reputation. So I had to put down way more money. I had a higher interest rate, like it was. It was, it's hard to get started. It really is like there's this big barrier of entry. That's
Mark D. Williams<br> 47:11
very difficult. Now, when you do I know, it was about a year ago that you did your first development, I think it was roughly 114. Lots where's the development at now?
Meg Billings 47:22
We just finished construction we're on are.
Mark D. Williams<br> 47:28
So you haven't built any homes like so the development is to platting you've done the city, sewer, water, all that kind of stuff?
Meg Billings 47:34
Yeah, yeah. Everything's through that process. We're ready to build now we're just going to wait for weather and hoping to get a lot of them sold in the spring. Like there's chatter, things are looking up, or we're excited about that.
Mark D. Williams<br> 47:48
But do you have any lot holes or any design agreements now that you're kind of working on?
Meg Billings 47:55
We do not as many is we were hoping to be at this point, honestly. But it's just it's been quiet, everything's a little bit quiet in our area, and just now starting to pick up again. So I think it's going to be really great timing, where of course in my mind, I wanted to have them all spoken for before they were done. And it just the timing wasn't quite right. But I think this is gonna be really great. And bring us some some some really great clients and homes to build in the future. A
Mark D. Williams<br> 48:23
year ago when interest rates went to like seven 8%. And not that much better. Now, what did you see in terms of client pullback? Just because you know, the building cycle is longer. So you know, if you've just started some homes, you might have a year, or a year and a half or eight months, it all depends on the size of your home, what have you experienced over the last year? And what is your outlook look like for 24 from what you're seeing? Yeah,
Meg Billings 48:48
I felt like right away, everything lower income stopped, and we we were just fine for a long time after that. And then I'd say the last like six months, it's been pretty, pretty quiet. And some of that might just be timing and all of that. But we're starting to get calls again, which is crazy. It's January, this is when we're supposed to be quiet. But I think everyone's sick of it. Like they've they've held on as long as they could with where they were at. And there's rumors of all the interest rates coming down. I think they're just wanting to get that process started, which is smart. I keep telling people like get in let's design now. It doesn't mean we have to break ground right away, but then you're ready if interest rates drop.
Mark D. Williams<br> 49:28
I mean, it's kind of that design funnel, right? So as the principals of our companies, if you're not getting designs on a regular basis, you know, at some point, you know, the bus is going to stop on the back end and even though your projects are longer I noticed a year ago, you know typically December January February are pretty quiet here. And then I always say the first sunny day in March you know it's like 3540 degrees everyone's like oh, it's summer is right around the corner in Minnesota that's still another two months away but anyway, they're they're very excited for the sunshine. And but that didn't happen this year to like June so I would say we had to wait About three months delay, and, and even so, you know, we had a couple pull off that we're ready to don't we, you know, we started them this summer this fall. And then we had to just recently actually that cancelled and said, we're gonna we're gonna wait a year. And so which wasn't great. I mean a small company like us, you know, when you lose half your, you know, half your big homes it really, you know, it really disrupts the applecart And so anyway, you know, building is always cyclical. And my years you see it up and down. And it's just, yeah, it's another one of those cycles. And but yet I'm sort of OPT I'm very optimistic for 24. I feel like there's going to be a lot of good things happening here in the spring, and there's a lot of energy right now.
Meg Billings 50:39
Yeah, I totally agree. I totally agree. One of
Mark D. Williams<br> 50:44
the questions I had for you, because I'm actually looking at a smaller development builder approached me, they've got six lots, they want to do three. All right, basically, I'd split it, you know, three, and three, which is about right for me. I don't want to get too far over my skis. And unlike you, I don't like doing specs. I did specs early on. And I learned the hard way that I'm just not a good SPEC builder. I tend to do things too. I just do it too nice. And I think maybe you're smart. Because it sounds like Mandy makes all your selections. Maybe she's better and more thrifty. As opposed. No,
Unknown Speaker 51:12
she's not, not Mandy, if you're listening, cut that. It
Mark D. Williams<br> 51:17
because I you know, it's a problem with knowing all the good stuff, you're like, Well, surely the client would want this surely the client, so I've always found that I'm better at, you know, kind of helping the client navigate and kind of well, I mean, essentially selling or, you know, eliminating the house so that it's even nicer. But I'm not very good at going the other way. So anyway, I haven't done a spec and all man 1315 2008 Yeah, so 2008 was last August, which was great timing 2008 was an awesome so maybe from from a development standpoint, how have you handled investment now that you're an established business? Do you still borrow money from the bank as you're doing development? Do you have any private investors? Do you self funded? How do you navigate you know, a development sounds great, but you have two jobs now your land developer and you know, traditionally a land developer wants to make money they want to sell their lots and move on. And the builder new wants to probably build a beautiful 14 lot. Hey, you drive into this community? It's a meg co construction home like this is this community is what I my vision of it. How do you how do you balance those two hats?
Meg Billings 52:22
Um, okay, they those two hats fight a lot, a lot. Like I, the developer just wants to get rid of them make make money move on by the next one. Like there's, there's land to buy, like, you gotta get that investment moving. But just like you're describing, like, we just want it to be like this. Just beautiful St you drive down just the experience of all that. We love that. And the best advice I was given was, you're wearing two different hats. Don't ever wear them at the same time. So yeah, if you're developing the land, get your land development hat on. Clearly
Mark D. Williams<br> 53:00
they haven't seen Sherlock Holmes is old. You know that duck go. I don't even know what the hats called where it has a bill front and back. I think Sherlock Holmes were, you know, one hat that had two bills. So, you know, maybe next time someone says that you need to go buy one of those and flip it on?
Meg Billings 53:15
Oh, yeah. He's pretty cool, though. Off the workout to them. Right? Just one heading.
Mark D. Williams<br> 53:20
Okay, well, I'm kind of curious to see how sales go off to check in after the builder show. And maybe later this summer, we'll have to, we'll have to either bring you back on to get a progress update. But I definitely want to stay tuned on how that goes for you. I have a whole bunch more business questions for you, as you and I know, we had about seven pages of notes. And we knew we were only gonna get to a portion of that's all. Well, some of that stuff will save for another time. One of the things I wanted to talk to you about, because you mentioned on your website, your LinkedIn profile several places, is you are one of only two women in your manufacturing and engineering program. Like clearly you're not imitated or intimidated by being in a man's world. I'm thinking of engineer or as you know, these welders I mean, even on your site, you're like, you know, hey, I can handle a welder, you know, like nobody's business. What have you learned from that experience? How has that helped you? Because, unfortunately, construction is a fairly male dominated industry. And I love seeing, you know, women in construction. There's a local company here called wink women in construction. And they're really powerful lobby, and I love seeing it across the country. Walk us a little bit through how you felt maybe even early on how you've been kind of set up to succeed or a little bit more about your experience in that department. Yeah,
Meg Billings 54:32
for sure. I, um, I think it might have been a little bit of growing up in Alaska. Honestly, they kind of like makes you not worry about that as much. I was the only girl on my hockey team growing up like I had the pink gloves, the pink helmet, just all in and just, I don't know, maybe maybe it was me. Maybe it was a little bit of growing up there too. But it hasn't been an issue for me or it intimidating how you're asking on that. Not that. Not that it's not intimidating. I totally have impostor syndrome and all all the just normal things that I think everyone goes through. I know when I was talking about going into it, my dad was like, his baby girl is gonna go into construction. And he's like, you're gonna get taken advantage of you're too nice to get out of there. Like don't do it. And so yeah, it's a real thing. I but I think it also gives me a lot of advantages were take on the client side, we've talked about before the generally, what is it, like 80% of the decisions are made by the female? Yeah,
Mark D. Williams<br> 55:45
I mean, 100% If you can't relate to women, and if you can't relate to your buyers, who happened to be me, I heard this crazy stat that like all NFL purchases, like 78% of all NFL, merchandise was bought by women. And the idea was, it never even dawned on me. I'm not a big NFL guy. But even so the idea is like, you know, the spouses were buying it for their husband, for their kids and for themselves, too. But like, it was just like, it kind of reframed people's thinking and a home business, I often laugh because like, when I remodeled my home, I went to my wife, and I said, Hey, honey, I really think this would be a really interesting thing to do. And she's like, I don't want to do that. And so and my line was like, Well, you know, people do pay me for my opinion. And she goes, Well, I'm not paying you. So even even a builder doesn't get to build his own house. I mean, you know, so I mean, anyway, to your point relating to women, and also making them feel comfortable, I have to believe that's been a huge asset for you.
Meg Billings 56:39
Yeah, it really has just like we're talking before, like, it's a big, intimidating process. And they're having to step into that man's world. They're having to talk to their rough, gruff builder and rough rough trades and standing up for what they really want. And so they just, I think I have an advantage there where I can talk to them. And I'm not intimidating to ask like, what is aphasia? Tell me, tell me what a facial is, what's this decision I'm making? And so I can, I think I can just connect and a little bit more compassion where maybe then and there's great guys all over that. Do that. But I think maybe they assume or that I will be a little bit easier to approach.
Mark D. Williams<br> 57:25
I think you're accurate on that. I would also imagine how often do you share your story about being a mom and having to take over a construction company to build your own house? That would I mean, that would, I mean, granted, I wouldn't want you to do that right now, like you're one. But like the fact that you did that seven years ago, that would be really reassuring to me as a client, like, wow, she's got, I mean, I say this about all Alaskans. You can't live in Alaska for very long and not have a figured out figured it out factor. Because you, you know, you're kind of abandoned by the rest of the world, and you're up in this inclement climate, you got to figure it out. And so you figure it out in the business world pretty quick. Do you share that story quite a bit with your clients? I
Meg Billings 58:05
do. And maybe not the whole story. But the experiences I learned from that, not just the building side, but being on the client side to where I bring up the Facebook moment, because I didn't know what it was. And he was asking me over the phone, like What color were painting it right now? I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about. Can I come over? And have you point at it and tell me and so a lot of and they go through the emotional process, too, you know, or they're like, I'm building this house, it's too big. My neighbors are going to say things, or is it too big for my family? And so being able to have gone through those emotions, those experiences, I think that really, really helps, too, because I can, oh, yeah, when I did this, that is how I felt and this helped or this, you know, all those things.
Mark D. Williams<br> 58:55
That's very empathetic of you. I imagine your ability to connect would be amazing. I empathy is something I'm working on. I can't decide if it's a cop out, because I'm a man, I'm bad at it. Or if I'm just Mark Williams bad at it. It is one of my resolutions, mainly one that my wife would really like me to learn that so I am working on empathy, but you just describe it. I'm like, I recognize it. I think the first step is recognizing it, right? So I'm like, I'm listening. I'm listening to talk and be like, Oh, that's what empathy as you went through it, you relate it to your client, and now you understand where she's coming from. I'm like, okay, but turns out besides being a builder, you can also be my therapist as well.
Meg Billings 59:30
I'll give you an insider stoop. Yeah, email bill are not female builders, females building their own home. They just want you to say you're not crazy all the time. Just all they want is some reassurance like you're not you're not crazy. This is okay. This is okay. You're not crazy. Alright,
Mark D. Williams<br> 59:48
I'll add an X walkthrough. I will I'll practice that and we'll see how it goes. How do you feel like I had mentioned this, you know, if I if I did 10 calls, you know, this month with other builders they'd network with, I bet 60 70% of them would be women owned businesses. And I don't know if that just speaks to my personal friend group, if that speaks to just people who actually answer my phone call. But like, do you find that if you are going to make 10 calls to other builders, and not just in your builder, 20. But just this is just more of a, you know, just kind of an observation, where I'm going with this question is, I feel like women and construction women on businesses that are way more apt to network and to share and to talk about their experience than some some men are. Do you think that's true or not?
Meg Billings 1:00:37
Yeah, I do think it's true. I, at least in my own life, like I, I told you before we started, like, nothing's really off limits, like you're not gonna make me feel uncomfortable. I, this is my story. I own it. Like, it's benefited me, it's hurt me like all the things that grow up that's come from it. And I think maybe we recognize that a little bit better. And some sometimes is that pride wall, you know, where you don't want to let everyone see what's behind the curtains and the struggles and the the hardships. But that's the kind of person you want to go to, to get real answers and to feel like you can say, hey, I'm going through this this tough thing, or I have this question. I don't know the answer to like, what ideas do you have? And I think that that's part of it.
Mark D. Williams<br> 1:01:23
Tell me a little bit about I was speaking with Morgan Molitor the other day and it sounds like you and Alison and her are going to do that build her retreat. I'm pretty intrigued about that. We had actually talked about doing something somewhat in this vein, but it never really got off the ground. Tell the audience what is this build her retreat that you guys are looking at doing?
Meg Billings 1:01:44
Um, it's still pretty hush hush. So we're
Mark D. Williams<br> 1:01:48
gonna talk about
Meg Billings 1:01:52
but we are trying to give an opportunity to gather women who are in construction, just I don't know, when I was a few years into my career. I went down to the house she belts have you heard of that? No, I'm, it's this epic project they did. There's NHV there's the professional women in building and the Salt Lake or Utah group went and built a house all females. So traits from the beginning to the end, it was a general who is a female, Tyler's drywall or is framers and the entire house is built from beginning to end by women. There's a book off of it, which you should totally get for your girls. Like, it's, it's an awesome book, just the house she built, okay. And it just like they did it to try and teach like women can do this, you can get into this industry. Like there's amazing jobs that you could control your own schedule, like you can have a family and take only so many tile jobs and control what you want to do don't want to do and there's great money, like people overlook it for, you know, go to college become of this become of that. And there is amazing opportunities in construction. And so they pulled that together, and they built the whole house. They've gotten tons of national recognition for it. It was an amazing project, but they put it in the Parade of Homes, and I got to go down, meet a lot of the women that were in it, and I was like, starstruck, I'm like, these are my people. These are my unicorns like I can, I don't know, like, I felt a giddy excitement and got to talk to them. And so we want to provide that same experience to other builders in the area. And
Mark D. Williams<br> 1:03:37
how many years ago was that, that you went there?
Meg Billings 1:03:39
Oh, it's got to be like, two or three years now.
Mark D. Williams<br> 1:03:43
Okay. So that's how I wrote it down, I'll get the book my daughter, I, you know, it's funny, I'm 43. And you know, God willing, maybe I'll build another 1520 years, I really don't want to still be building when my daughter would be of age to take over the business. Because she'd be amazing. For one thing she'd be I would love that. But I don't really want to work into my 60s and 70s, you know, to kind of carry that on. And it's hard to know whether they'll have an interest, but she would definitely be highly capable. She could. I always say negotiating against against for your kids is way harder than clients. So well, just to be respectful of your time. Maybe just one last question. The rest of 24 What are some things that you're really excited about? Oh,
Meg Billings 1:04:26
we kind of in the same boat as you we had two big projects last year to get postponed to this year. And those have been really excited now. One I think I've talked to you about before is the geothermal house, which I think so excited about it. Right on the river. We've got 130 degrees bubbling out of the ground right next to it. We've got 60 degrees and another spring. It's just like this crazy geological. Everything's happening. They're there. They're both Gene for carp right off the docks, they want to come out to the hot water. And it's just a crazy unique, cool project. So we're over the moon excited about that one.
Mark D. Williams<br> 1:05:10
Well, that's really excited. When do you hope to start that one here in the spring when things get a little warmer?
Unknown Speaker 1:05:16
Looking at June or July?
Mark D. Williams<br> 1:05:18
Okay, so yeah, and how far into like pre con would you be? And now and because what's it like when you have a job? It pulls for a year. And now you're kind of back into it asking for a friend here? How do you how do you reengage in it? Was it based on interest rates? Or how did you did you along the way kind of say like, Hey, if you want to start now we're ready? Or did you just kind of give them their space?
Meg Billings 1:05:41
Um, we were pretty certain they were wanting to go. So there were some situations that more with permitting that kept us from from starting. And so I do feel like we have to go through everything. Again, just just like, we were talking about that whole plan, where I'm like, Oh, that was really great. We did it, we have it figured out and documented. But there's been a lot of time in between, and clients make changes in between. And so just rehashing going through the design, going through the project again, kind of restarting but not won't take as much time, I guess I just don't want to miss anything that's, you know,
Mark D. Williams<br> 1:06:21
I don't you feel like when you're in building for specific client, you're really you have the pulse of it, like you're in it, but you go 6090 days where you're not in it every day. And it's not a con it's not that you don't care about them or their home, but like your attention is drawn to your other projects or, you know, trying to get a job or working on tax or designing or whatever else you're doing. It's just like, I feel like when you're in it, you really you've got the pulse have it and it doesn't take very much memory recall to pull up some of those more important details. So then it feels like you're in some ways you almost like starting over. Even if it's only been a short time, which
Meg Billings 1:06:59
is really hard for clients, they they are 100% focused on that plan. But they forget that where we have to focus on multiple plans. And so yeah, I really do feel like I had to get back in there and just like get myself going again so that I don't look like I'm behind the ball or not caring as much as I should be. Yeah,
Mark D. Williams<br> 1:07:21
well, excellent. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I'm really excited to start reconnecting with all those people around the country that I've gotten to meet through the contractor coalition and through their you know, obviously social medias. I love the idea that you even got through it, you know, from Cardinal crest. I hope to have those guys on at some point as well. But I'll see you I'll see you in Vegas at the builder show and I look forward to hearing about profitability on your panel.
Unknown Speaker 1:07:45
Awesome. Thanks Mark so much for having me. You are incredible.
Mark D. Williams<br> 1:07:50
Very good. Have a great one. Appreciate it.
