Episode 45 -A Finnish Cabinet Maker's Journey in the US Market
Episode #45 | Ville Kämäräinen | Puustelli Kitchens and Growing Sustainably
This episode covers the history and expansion of Puustelli, a Finnish cabinetry company operating in the US. Founded in Finland in the 1920s, Puustelli began installing cabinets in Minnesota in 2016 and has since grown their US presence through showroom openings, partnerships with builders. CEO Ville Kämäräinen discussed Puustelli's focus on sustainability through forest certification, low-VOC materials, and research to develop their industrial production process.
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Our mission at Puustelli USA is to provide our customers with access to authentic, unique, and eco-friendly Scandinavian home and kitchen design. We’re experts at maximizing the use of space to create beautiful, unique kitchens in any home.
The Puustelli heritage and reputation as one of Scandinavia’s leading cabinetry and design companies is built on a century of experience. Born in 1920 from a love of clean lines combined with exceptional durability and craftmanship, Puustelli cabinetry is the pinnacle of European style combined with Nordic innovation.
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Mark D. Williams<br> 0:01
Welcome to the curious builder Podcast. I'm Mark Williams, your host. Today I'm joined with V les kahraman. I butchered that. Can you pronounce your name for me? And that's a good one. We have a local thing here with Prusa Lee cabinets. Welcome to the show.
Ville Kämäräinen 0:27
Thank you.
Mark D. Williams<br> 0:28
So we met probably four or five months ago, I got a tour in your Edina showroom. I was really impressed and wanted to bring you on and tell us a little bit about your story. So I guess let's start there. Let's tell us a little bit about Purcell cabinets and their journey here from Finland to Minnesota.
Ville Kämäräinen 0:44
Yeah, thanks for having me. boostin has been here since 2016. And so what does it make seven years about? And boosting itself the mother company is from 1920s. So 103 year old company and still has that plaid where there is an old brick chimney and railroad tracks running into the factory building. And then you get inside. And it's all modern setup, but basically two stories, one of the mother company, and with over 100 years of history, and then this set up here, which is now on the seventh year, I think, what,
Mark D. Williams<br> 1:29
how or what city? Is it in Finland? It's
Ville Kämäräinen 1:33
Hadiya Valda. And you get a question mark look given on Finnish people's faces. So don't be surprised.
Mark D. Williams<br> 1:39
Don't feel bad that I don't know. Southwest. Okay. Okay. Excellent. close to the coast.
Ville Kämäräinen 1:44
What?
Mark D. Williams<br> 1:45
So they've been around for 100 years, and you've been in the United States for just seven or were you shipping stuff through a distributor prior to that? The
Ville Kämäräinen 1:53
first installation was right around 1617. So that was the first kitchen did most of the kitchen installed in the state.
Mark D. Williams<br> 2:01
Okay, and why? I mean, I have some suspicions, just Minnesota and with our ties to Scandinavian countries, Finland and Norway and Sweden in general with a lot of our population. But why Minnesota and why here when you guys decided to branch to the United States, I think
Ville Kämäräinen 2:16
that's where we connect. So Minnesota has things like why Minnesota and then as California's and they're like, why not? So like why not? Minnesota would be the short answer. The actual answer is that there was out there. On day one, I was an au pair here and then she was still married to a booster, the entrepreneur Miko Yola, and then she, after I'll pay your her host family visited them in Finland, and they looked at their kitchen, they're like, We want one of these to our home in America, and make up a little bit optimistic. He's like, let's do that. So that's how we started and then we go into the factory to the CEO and told him that we got to start installing in the States. Oh, that's
Mark D. Williams<br> 3:03
that's a great story. Yeah. Love that. Wow. What year would that have been roughly? Was that prior obviously?
Ville Kämäräinen 3:08
Yeah. A few years? A little before? Yeah.
Mark D. Williams<br> 3:10
Okay. Amazing. What, what city? Was she in here in Minnesota?
Ville Kämäräinen 3:14
She was I don't know exactly. The first operations. Were going to die. No. Yeah, we're we're back to No. Okay.
Mark D. Williams<br> 3:21
That would make sense. So you guys decided to move over here. You came in 2016. Walk us a little bit through I think you're the first person that we've had on the podcast that, you know, we have international connections and starting a new business. A lot of the people that are we've had on, you know, obviously talk about their story of entrepreneurship, yours is really unique in the fact that you obviously have 100 year old company, but in some ways, it's starting over in the sense that it's creating a new business venture here in the States. Walk us through a little bit of, you know, I guess some of the challenges and your personal involvement. I mean, you're the CEO now, and you've been here the whole time, I would assume. Actually not.
Ville Kämäräinen 3:56
I started. We moved here from Helsinki, Finland to actually Maple Grove, Minnesota initially, summer 2019. Okay, so the good timing right before COVID. It was me and my wife and two kiddos. And we packed up our life in Finland into 10 suitcases and flew here. And then, as I remember, two vivid memories, one was walking at the airport and trying my pocket and looking for keys. Just realizing that well, we don't have a house. We don't have a car or cars. So I don't I'm not missing any keys. I don't have any keys. And then another one when we had got the rental in Maple Grove and then got our kids enrolled in school, and it would walked into the yellow school bus which doesn't exist in Finland that was big right in itself. And then we would move on my wife would send them off and then join the retirees walking around the ponds or Maple Grove. And actually one of the neighbors came back to us later on. She's like So you're the young couple that just goes for walks in the mornings, like, Yes, I guess we haven't noticed. Oh,
Mark D. Williams<br> 5:06
that's really funny. So at that time, what was set up here in Minnesota? I mean, the shop had already been set up for four years at that time or three years, I guess it was. So use, I assume you started, you know, pretty. You were driving into the office as soon as you figured out how to buy a car and all that stuff. Right. Right.
Ville Kämäräinen 5:21
So I knew that I had scoped them out. Before we moved here. You weren't you weren't sent here by them? No, no, I, we just moved here we had a little bit of a runway to work with. So we just went for walks. Because we didn't have jobs. We didn't have anything lined up. Oh, amazing. We started getting the house set up and all that. And then I went to a networking actually finished American Chamber of Commerce event. And entrepreneur was there. And so I met with me quite, I had some interviews ongoing. So but then, I think what cosmic myth goes attention is that I had been working for a fast growing Finnish company that was growing from Finland to other Nordic countries. And in the time I was there, it went from 50 to 500 people, about $120 million in revenue now. So we're going to think that there's probably some applicable knowledge hopefully came from that right. And then long story short, that's when we ended up joining paths, and I started as a CEO, so that was November 2019. When I started, right,
Mark D. Williams<br> 6:34
and then COVID hit, yeah. We'll get into that in a minute. Well, tell us a little bit then about, you know, some of the things that makes it it's funny, I say it differently. So I keep saying to Sally, and what is the proper pronunciation
Ville Kämäräinen 6:48
booster Lee, who's delay so you say it without any enthusiasm, so that becomes finish. And then you kind of sit on the long follows you sit on the user pool steadily?
Mark D. Williams<br> 6:58
Who's deli Alright, I'm gonna have to do some finished class. It was funny because right before we you came on, you were laughing you're like, so this interview was basically one hour of trying to make a fin talk. Oh, that made me laugh so hard.
Ville Kämäräinen 7:07
Yeah. Thanks for taking on the challenge. Yeah, very, very reserved
Mark D. Williams<br> 7:11
all your great guests. So yeah, just walk us through a little bit of I was very impressed with the show revenue Dinah's right off of was at highway 170. or somewhere around there.
Ville Kämäräinen 7:20
Yeah, so it's the old Vikings headquarters seems to be an old by everyone. So exit bait basically were 494 and 169. Meat. It's called the district diner. And there's a few showrooms there. That's where we are.
Mark D. Williams<br> 7:34
You guys, I remember seeing because I live in Minneapolis, you guys used to be an uptown, right? Was there? That's right. Five years. Okay. I remember the glass buildings right there, you know, kind of on the corner of Calhoun square, if I recall, as you drive it on Lake Street, right. You're right. Yeah. You always always had beautiful, you know, advertising. And I always thought the showroom as I just drove by what I was looking really attractive, evidently not enough to attract me to go in, because I never did go ahead. But yeah, it was very good. So walk us through a little bit about your cabinetry, I mean, most of the cabinetry that I do is, you know, going to be wood created, you know, everything's custom here, you know, made in Minnesota. And so I was really impressed with, you know, the customization of, you know, the product and of the cabinetry. And just learning about, we'll talk a little bit about kind of the Eco center, you know, just your, your sustainability that companies kind of Saturday around. And so I guess tell us a little bit more about that. Yeah,
Ville Kämäräinen 8:27
I remember the visit, I actually got your intention, when I went to stand on one of the drawers just to demonstrate show off the durability and high quality of them. But if you go little back, if you go to where the company started, and kind of like how it evolved into what it is today is that in 1920s, there was an operation that was processing wood, lumber, and then went from there to making windows and doors, and then started exporting some high quality products in 60s. And it was not until 77 days when the kitchen cabinetry line started. And to answer that long answer to your question was that the it actually filled the void of like big box producers making cabinets that don't actually work in the home. So boostin kind of came into with the custom approach. And already then combine some of the industrial ways of doing that, but really being the Custom Shop for the client. So that's where I started and then for the past 30 years boosted has been the number one in the whole market. And today it is to the point where every it's 30% of the new build homes have posted kitchens in them in Europe or in Finland, okay. And 15% of the remodeled home. So it's like to the point where the mother company struggles to understand sometimes that you know, We are not no but anybody in the beginning, now it's changed somewhat. But anyway, that's, that's where I started. And then, about 15 years ago, the management came together and decided to look into the sustainable aspect of it, of making like, knowing that they could make cabinets different and make make them better make them more durable. And about 10 years ago, so we're celebrating our 10th year with the product line we have now. And it was a long journey of doing a lot of r&d and actually pouring millions into it, which is one of those things that most companies didn't take that bet at that point. And retrospectively, you could speculate that was that the bleeding or leading edge, and I could maybe say that that was maybe on the bleeding side at that point. To today being in a position where we have been showcased by many magazines, because there's something there's novelty to it, it's actually built different. But so the long answer to the differentiation, actually, it kind of have to start with the factory. So the factory itself is it's on a track to become carbon neutral by 2035. So there's an ambitious, ambitious goal for process that actually uses a lot of energy, for instance, and and then if you think about buying a boosted product, you know that you're buying something that is not made in a sweatshop. It's like, the factory itself has three different ISO certification. So why is it important important is it like there's there's three one is for quality, one is for separately for environment, environmental quality. And third is just looking after the employees, so the occupational health and safety. So that's the workplace, that's where the cabinets are made, it's a almost dust free environment, it's automated. Yet, it's like the business school taught the Word. Like mass customization, the mass doesn't sound so great, but what is mass produce is something that is always the same. Now each product actually has unique design to your space, your space, it has your unique selection of doors, pulls everything, and then the actual wood door is, is inspected and actually made with, you know, pair of hands and someone actually inspecting it, making sure that it looks as it needs to. And then we can give the warranty. And it's it's,
Mark D. Williams<br> 12:44
you know, it's interesting, I use, obviously a lot of products for a lot of different things in a custom home. Recently, I've done several factory tours in different window companies. And now you're telling me I'm seeing manufacturing at a large scale, I had preconceived notions that, you know, everything would be stamped out in a big machine. But every factory tour I've done has an incredible amount of people. And there's actually way more hands on a product than I would have thought. And I think some people would maybe say, Oh, that's not efficient enough, we need to be better. But I took it as I'm really impressed at the level of craftsmanship that goes into the Windows or the cabinets that you're talking about. So I think sometimes you correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like you know, when we're mass producing something, you're just talking about a large amount of quantity to be a efficient to increase your value. But that doesn't necessarily diminish its quality. I mean, would you say that's a fair statement? Yeah, that's
Ville Kämäräinen 13:36
a very good one. And, and the industrial process is used for something that needs to be high quality, it's like that is a guarantee in itself, that there is no material issues or, or any any of that, but like it's a combination of both. And what is important to note is that every single kitchen, know the 13 to 15,000 kitchens that go through the factory every year, every single one is custom designed, there's nothing stopped that your kitchen is in piles of wood, essentially piles of veneers before it's ordered. So it's actually custom made every single time but it's a more industrial process of how it's made.
Mark D. Williams<br> 14:19
I mean, I just took a tour of Pella windows and doors down in Pella, Iowa and they had the same deal. You know, they'll stock you know, common parts, but until they actually get the order of it, then they just take those parts that they've already assembled or pre cut if you will to increase efficiency, right? But still each window is made to sweet you know, to suit to every you know, whatever my custom dimension is there. Again, just bring efficiency. I think we could learn a lot of that we learn a lot of those techniques and apply them to a custom build. I think in Europe in general, they do a better job of Systemising especially building let's say a new customer I'm probably because there's not I'm guessing by volume. They're not building nearly as many new homes would be my guess as they are in the United States. But we I think are really I
set out a way to increase the efficiency of the labor. And I think we're going to have to considering the labor pool is shrinking, especially in construction, I think the way around that is we're going to have to do a better job of working with systems. And using that modern technology to build stuff in factories and warehouses. It's just hard. What do you do, I think the excuse has always been, at least for me, and in Minnesota, that, you know, if you're caught in a high end builder, doing very complicated homes, it's easier just to build it out in the field. And there is some truth to that. But, you know, even if you could build 50 to 60% of your home, in somewhat of a field adopted, you know, assembly, if you will, I think it would greatly improve the efficiency, speed and price of the home.
Ville Kämäräinen 15:48
I think you nailed it. And I think that that whole issue is part of the whole set of stories that we actually had to make. And I say we I wasn't even there at that at the time, but had to make large investments to create something new, and that can be called sustainable. So if you actually dig into the materials, the factory had to work away from formaldehyde, there was an underlying goal of creating something that is not only sustainably made, but also low VOC, so a product that is third party tested for indoor air quality, and to be able to say that you actually had to pour millions into it. And with the outcome of that, and wait, wait, what kind of wait, it kind of requires that industrial processes that in order to work with materials, you need volumes. And in our case, if the outcome was something that the sourcing of the materials was investigated and changed, so that all the wood product, for instance, come from third party certified forests. So there's two certifications, just FSC, and PEFC. And if you would dig into those that guarantee guarantees that if a tree has got more than one trees planted in there like that, that can be those kitchens, the 13 to 15,000 can be sustainably made. It doesn't take a toll on this planet. So that's one aspect of it. And then what you gain as an individual is that now if you look at that, what's the low VOC I'm not an expert in it. But like if the site EPA, the environment or Protection Agency, nice. It came up really relatively smoothly. So they say that there's about 10 times more VOCs in the inside, inside the buildings and outside. And why is that it's the material choices we make. And kitchen cabinets fairly well what I said earlier about bleeding edge, has that challenge that there is limited amount of knowledge about that and awareness about kitchen cabinets being also pollutants and like contributing to the bad indoor air quality. So the company went back and basically re engineered the whole product, there was no really quick, easy fixes. You have to work through all the materials. So the outcome was a bio frame to frame with the cabinet is supposed to hold the drawers in place and doors in place. So that's what he needs to be good at. That's why I went to stand in the cabinet just to prove that he does that job. Well, it
Mark D. Williams<br> 18:31
was funny, because when I was at your showroom just for the audience, you know, that is funny, because your staff is like, Oh, here he goes, again, because clearly you've done that before. But he pulls out this bottom drawer and one of the things that you know, I had some preconceived notions about the cabinetry not knowing anything about them. And because we've always I've always been around cabinet makers that build it from scratch right in front of me and I can see the small warehouse and they're all like a one man, you know, manufacturing firm, if you will. And to see how it is, oddly enough, you guys use Blum Hinges as well. So European was the Austrian right. I should be able to answer that, but I'm pretty sure they're Austrian. But anyway, so we've got some great European parts, even in our cabinets now. And so but anybody watching you stand on it was like and you're like, yep, this isn't going anywhere. I mean, you can't do that with just any cabinet. And so that part's obviously impressive. So yeah,
Ville Kämäräinen 19:21
and like you as an individual homeowner get a 30 year warranty on those mechanical parts, which is not always the best argument to bring up because some of our lives, some of our customers it takes them to live past their expected lifetime. So not ideal. But anyway, the point of it is that when it's built that way, it gives you the good feeling of quality everyday when you use it.
Mark D. Williams<br> 19:46
What percentage shifting it a little bit from the sustainability. So in Europe you had mentioned so like in Finland year ago, about 15% of the market is buying your cabinetry in general Europe, what kind of market share would you guys have? So
Ville Kämäräinen 19:59
we own that actively operate and have showrooms in Finland, Sweden, and Estonia and UK and here. Oh, so the rest of it is one offs, projects. So those are the active markets.
Mark D. Williams<br> 20:12
Interesting. So I mean, Europe is not geographically obviously as big as let's say the US. I mean, obviously, as a whole it is, but so if someone in France wanted some cabinets they could get or they could.
Ville Kämäräinen 20:23
It kind of depends, it wouldn't be the most interesting. Okay, interesting project. Interesting.
Mark D. Williams<br> 20:28
So because you guys were so successful, I feel like as a general culture, Europe seems to be more thoughtful on being sustainable in general, than the US is, as a whole. Why not continue to expand through Europe, considering that the mindset and would probably be more favorable than the US versus obviously starting in Minnesota, other than the fact that the apparel wanted it?
Ville Kämäräinen 20:52
Yeah, that's, that's more than $1,000 question right there. I think the differentiation factor, kind of with my name, you know, there's only probably one a lot of Vila cameras in the whole country, we differentiate greatly in this market, it is an advantage for us. If you go to Europe, there is aesthetically solutions that are aesthetically very close to us. They wouldn't have the same way of using materials, they wouldn't have the same products, they wouldn't have the same quality. But the competition is different. And I think it also I think it's also the fact that there happened to be the dollar pair and the entrepreneur and all that, like, what's the real story? Your
Mark D. Williams<br> 21:38
answer is great. I mean, it was a huge differentiator, right. I mean, if everyone in the US is doing it, you know, within a handful of ways, and you come in with a totally different approach, you're like, Wow, you just opened up in a huge market, which obviously, the housing market in United States has to be, I would assume the largest in the world. I don't know that for a fact, just guessing. Versus basically its ears would be Yeah, it is the largest. It is the largest. Yep. Which would make sense. But the in Europe, yeah, that makes total sense to me. Because I mean, otherwise, you're playing against a fairly even playing field, or at least a lot of they have more options. Were here, less. So if they're looking for, you know, what you guys have to offer? Yeah, interesting. So now that you were let's bring it to Minnesota, and now the US market in, you know, 2016, you know, whether it's revenue, or you can just talk about percentages, if you don't want to talk about revenue, how much growth Have you seen from 2016, to say now, roughly, in terms of just your growth segment here?
Ville Kämäräinen 22:31
I think we could actually look at kind of the pivots of the company, I think that that's one of the great words that Silicon Valley has given us. entrepreneurs is that you, you have to change the direction of the business. And like then you talk about pivoting, and you make it sound like it was all controlled, and all
Mark D. Williams<br> 22:53
avoiding a giant Rhino holder capuccino.
Ville Kämäräinen 22:55
And then you talk about pivoting and you know, those moments for bulls deli, where the initial, you know, the success story of making the first installation that the client is very happy still today after the years of using the product, and then posting it open a showroom on Lake Street. And I think that's one of those went out when I've listened to other European companies coming here, one of those moments where you expect business to pick up, and then you invest in the showroom, and you realize that no, it doesn't get I actually that sucked all the energy. So the business might actually build anything and nobody comes, right. Yeah, exactly. So we actually did get I wasn't there. So someone else could tell it better. But we did get a lot of attention, a lot of good attention. We won the award at the both of bigger exhibitions here, Home and Garden and home and remodeling and, and got publicity in the local press. And like that there was it was good at the opening in itself was good. Did it bring the business that was maybe expected? Probably not. But then I think the pivot, that was the first pivot basically, opening a really cool show are five fully functional kitchens. And you know, it's one of the cooler showrooms in town. Now. Then the business model at that point was that we are full service remodeler and the cabinets, cabinets were kind of maybe kind of a site revenue stream. And that was the model. And that was a way to open the market. But then it wasn't very scalable so that we went from that to actually scaling down and literally giving up millions of revenue in the form of remodeling business. So that remodeling business was scaled down and
Mark D. Williams<br> 24:52
know that so when you guys first started, you were remodeled and you'd use your own cabinetry. Would you also sell cabinets as retail as well? You kind of had two businesses I
Ville Kämäräinen 25:00
noticed one, but we did every modelers license, we did Full House Remodeling and massive projects. Wow, where the cabinets were a little sidestream. Yeah. And so went from that to then the entrepreneurs deciding to scale down their model of business, which is massive, you know, it's, you had to reduce the team, it was it's hard for you to the people you have hired to let them go. Because the business model change, I still think it was the right decision, but a painful one. So that's when I came in 2019 is when that business was scaled down, and people were tired, because it's a massive shift. And so we started the COVID Golden COVID years, fresh new business model, and we made room for builders like you to be able to work with us, because until then, we had been basically competitor interest because we had the builder last week into the whole thing.
Mark D. Williams<br> 25:58
That's a tough deal because you're selling a new product and you're new builder to town. So you don't and obviously Minnesota has a lot of remodelers and a lot of builders. We're a long standing multi generational, you know, chain, if you will, you know where people that's hard to break into a new market? Right deep roots? Yeah,
Ville Kämäräinen 26:18
it can become a mediocre, mediocre remodeler. But does that sell the cabinets? No, not not in scale. But it was not not to discredit that was an important path to becoming what we are today. And then the so that was that was another pivot to scale that down. And then now we have opened a partner program trade program to make room for that for the business case and change our mindsets to serve that audience. So up to this point, we have now been mainly serving individual consumers. And you sell them a kitchen a 30 year warranty. When do they buy next time? Yeah.
Mark D. Williams<br> 27:01
It's a long time. Right? They sell their home? Yeah, I see. So again, so that would you say that's your second pivot? So now you went from being a remodeler that sold cabinets to a pivot where you sold cabinets? And now is your third pivot, essentially trying to develop more building relationships and architect relationships and designer relationships? Is that the right of it? Yeah. And
Ville Kämäräinen 27:21
so I went to us green Bailey console. So big word, or number? A few words. So I went to their event last night and and like they also the same, that same thing that we learned at campus this year was that that's one of those indirect audiences that we need to address and talk to more more so and is the architects, designers, and builders, of course. And yeah, that's what we're doing now. And then further down the road, we will have a partnership model for someone actually resell the product have dealers around the country, but we're not there yet. Yeah. And we have, we have done individual projects in more than 10 states now. Okay, but it's the Yeah.
Mark D. Williams<br> 28:06
Do you guys install your own cabinetry as well? Yep. Okay, so you obviously if it's down here in Minnesota, someone in Texas wants a cabinet, you'll fly a team down, drive a team down, or you'll do it obviously has to reflect in the price too. So that becomes a challenge, I'm guessing, right? Yeah.
Ville Kämäräinen 28:19
Yeah. And like transportation. It's one of those maybe misunderstandings, that kind of like the custom aspect of it. We're actually we manufacture different but we make it's fully custom to every single product. One of those things is that transportation, well, does it become costly. Just a number number game, your last container was about little over $5,000. To bring here. It's you can have five kitchens that are preassembled in that one container. So now you paid the over, let's say $1,000, for the transport from the factory in a container that was never open until it was received here. So a very controlled environment, all the way to Edina Minnesota. So that's one of those things that it doesn't necessarily cost more than sending something from Tennessee, it might be slightly more but compared to the project, everything it might have come with countertops in the same shipment. It's not that big of a difference. Interesting.
Mark D. Williams<br> 29:21
How right now from a percentage split how much of your business or retail sales would be direct to consumer versus to a builder or architect.
Ville Kämäräinen 29:32
So if I had to throw the period or at 20 added it would be 80% direct to consumer where the model is such that we provide that design the cabinetry countertops and the installation and then there's a remodel a partner that gets the space ready for us right and the rest of it is working with builders. And that that is now already shifting when you have introduced the new model to work with the right partners.
Mark D. Williams<br> 30:02
Right? Do you how big is your current team right now in the cities? In terms of employees? There's nine of us. And I assumed I mean, do you have from a sales standpoint, I met some of your staff, obviously, when I was in the showroom, I mean, as one of your main things to try to invite people obviously, into the showroom, you know, how often are you let's say, going out and trying to meet, you know, kind of a lunch and greet with, you know, architects or builders or designers? Or what's the best? What have you found to be the best way to build a relationship, because as you know, it is a relationship that takes some time to develop, it's probably not just a call and say, Hey, would you like to buy our cabinets or walk us through a little bit of how, you know, not only you, but in general, those listening that have, let's say, a manufacturing business, just some ways and tips that work to, you know, expand that growth.
Ville Kämäräinen 30:48
We love to be bring people to our showroom, because it's like, you learn something, when you see like, you actually get to try and feel the product, what it feels like, get the quality feeling of it, get some visual visuals, what's what are the settings? So that's one of the prime forms, primary forms of doing that. And then obviously, we're active with going to different events. But primarily, we try to bring people and bring people to our showroom and then have had some theme talks, invite some specialists, pros from the field to our showroom have a little panel, because that it's a cold environment. It's it's their kitchen. So that those are what I mean,
Mark D. Williams<br> 31:32
I think correct me if I'm wrong, I think we've met in person about three times. I know, the first time I think was at the members only event that Housing First Minnesota put on, and then the second was at our first live event for the curious. Right. And then obviously your your trip your showroom. But it was interesting to me. You're speaking about the ICO stuff. So Jackson Schwartz from Hennepin made at the live event, you know, kind of how you mentioned by 2035, you guys wanted to be carbon zero, you know, at the factory, is that right? And it was just kind of interesting, even here in Minnesota, how there's certain companies, you know, Hennepin made had some, I think they had like six different metrics they were trying to reach and it was to inspire their employees. It was also It wasn't even just the story, they really believed in the sustainable model. And I think that is definitely the younger generation is thinking much more about it than I would say, the generation of builders and businesses, you know, that we're here before us. And so it's encouraging to see that. And then, of course, the state has, you know, guidelines and tries to encourage I think the thing that's always difficult about that is how do you balance sustainability with price, because, you know, we always are, of course concerned about, you know, value. And I think if you say a value statement, it'd be easy to talk about sustainability, how there's a lot of value there for future, if you talk about cost, I often feel like COST AND VALUE are totally different metrics. And even when I was having a conversation today, on a sidewalk with a couple that we were interviewing for, and I was trying to explain to them different tiers of architecture and home design, and same deal with builders, you know, you know, just like a car like any other thing, there's so many different tiers. And I'm really I have to understand what the client values before I can really see if our if our structure aligns with their value statement. So Right.
Ville Kämäräinen 33:18
And I think the quality answers it like the lifetime that longevity of the product answers partially that question, we actually have one company that is using our cabinets for affordable living, and affordable housing. And they chose us because primarily because of the quality aspect of it, and that in turn, reducing their cost long term, but they they had to give a little bit more of a timeline. And then they're thinking it was interesting to hear what their own words is that now that we have, you know, it's hundreds of units that they'll be installing that in the state of California. So now that you have a kitchen that you have installed, once if something breaks, you change a component, you don't change the whole kitchen. So that was part of their value, that they signed the product and how it's built so that you can actually save money in a rental setting.
Mark D. Williams<br> 34:15
Yeah, that wasn't my next question was going to be about commercials and apartments because I have to believe on an apartment building over a condo building. That would be a genius move especially as a cap that can't be too many cabinet companies out there that is there any that do a 30 year warranty.
Ville Kämäräinen 34:30
I haven't I haven't seen any but doesn't mean that there isn't any Sure.
Mark D. Williams<br> 34:35
I think that's us SEO answer right there. That's a veteran move right there. But it genius really because not only have you spent more money in the front end but yeah, if you're if you know that you have to redo and update your apartments. I don't know they must have a schedule saying that, hey, the average home needs to you know new paint new cabinets, whatever it is, and if they can extend that out. Now the lifecycle if that's going to make a lot more sense that makes sense. Do you find that you have a lot of commercial interest?
Ville Kämäräinen 35:02
We actually are not looking for we're not actively seeking for them. There is interest, but it was our challenge is it spread across the 50 states. We just had an inquiry from Washington DC. And it was a hotel building. And they wanted our cabinets for it. They had scoped out three companies that they could find that could fit the spec that was required by the investor. We looked at it, we turned it down. We turned it down twice. We're basically not ready to deliver at that point. We have done them though. So like moldy apartments, Mo D. Yeah. I write in a in uptown. They have our kitchens in there called luxury apartments. And, and it's funny, I met with the investor and it was a few years after they they have been installed. And they're like, you know, you talked about that promise, like, if there's water damage, do your cabinet, the Fanes will actually take it, that's no problem. They're not going to suck in the water, their bio frames, and they're built that way. And we ended up testing that promise. Right? So and they're like, and you're true to your word. They actually they took that water damage, and we're fine. So
Mark D. Williams<br> 36:20
interesting. I wonder if they're gonna come up, I guess they do. LVT I was thinking about because every once in a while every builder, if they've been in business long enough, has seen a dishwasher likely fail or backup or whatever happened. And then the water will come out underneath the pan, it'll spread to your wood floor or your wood floor expanse. And before you know it, you've got to rip out some wood flooring, because it's what is porous. I was just thinking, you know, could you come up with the biota? You know, would you call it bio frame, so a bio wood floor, but I guess in some ways they have that LVT and other synthetic products. I just liked the way, you know, the natural wood looks better for a wood floor application anyway. Well, the
Ville Kämäräinen 36:53
problem itself is solved with postal postal cabinets in Finland and in the European markets in a way that there is a plastic piece under the on the dishwasher. And then there's a little alarm. There's two different kinds of alarms one needs to some voids that
Mark D. Williams<br> 37:09
we've talked about doing custom. I know some high end builders will do like a custom metal tin underneath it like a disaster pan. And we've done plastic ones under under like washing machines. Right? It's not super common for dishwashers. But anyway, I'll have to actually was on my to do list last year looks like it's gonna go back on the list for this year to look into that. What, from a business standpoint, so you're receiving everything into your warehouse in Edina as well, because you have your showroom and I think you mentioned you have a warehouse, right. Yeah, it was that one of the primary reasons to move out of Uptown was to get some more storage space. That was
Ville Kämäräinen 37:46
one of them. So we had a five plus five year lease. And then we had well, that's a story to Greg from habitation, furnishing and design walked into our Christmas party. And he's like, I know, I know, you guys have the coolest showroom in town, but I think we should move. Like we're not moving. Yeah. But we are actually negotiating that five year extension. So what what do we have? What have you gotten in the he's like, Well, we have a cool new district, Dinah showrooms basically, you guys should move to or like, No, we're not. But long story short, we
Mark D. Williams<br> 38:20
ended up moving. How did he convince you?
Ville Kämäräinen 38:24
The space was easier for parking, the building is really cool. The idea of having multiple short rooms under one roof was good. Location is great. It's in the Dana address. But not only that, it is worth 494 1692 Easy, easy for clients to come to. And then a lot of good shared spaces. So that was, that was handy. And then we ended up finding the warehouse and storage location. Right next door. And that's one of the one of the other pivots. So what we have done now is that since we have it, we have started little small scale assembly there. And we're now building what we call an express line. So since we have the bio frame slides, boxes, they are standard in all that we use standard sizes. We then like when we design we just decide what size do we use for each each cabinet. So now we have basically everything except for doors in the diner warehouse. So if we needed to, we could do a six week turnaround time for all projects. So if you are a builder that has a quick need that Okay, someone is or the if it's a realtor that there's a house being sold and bought and there's a time crunch for someone to move in. We can turn it around with six weeks and what we do is that we get everything else from the warehouse and then to sent the doors either had the doors made locally or sent them from the factory. So that's
Mark D. Williams<br> 39:56
I mean that's impressive for you know, custom, you know cabinetry to be turned in six weeks like that. And on top of it, you don't have to do any sort of onsite painting. Right. So you're saving all the time there as well.
Ville Kämäräinen 40:07
You're correct. You're correct. Yep.
Mark D. Williams<br> 40:09
Yeah, that's really that's a good, that's a good idea. From a What are you know, obviously, everyone experienced issues during COVID? How did that you'd mentioned that container box was 5000. What, what, during the height of the pandemic? What were some of your freight charges, like per crate? And did that completely mess up your pricing model? Or you had to continually readjust it every month? Yeah, that's
Ville Kämäräinen 40:33
a good question. So the same metric, it was 12. Little over 12. Grand. Yeah. But we have a big factory, what we actually ended up riding on a flat price throughout COVID. So factory lag with updating there, so we pay a percentage for them. So we ended up being basically the same price, customers didn't actually see the increase in freight cost, because it was absorbed primarily by factory, because we had to terms in place for paying for the end. So
Mark D. Williams<br> 41:04
you had some locked contracts that you couldn't change on the back end?
Ville Kämäräinen 41:07
Basically, it was it with our own own factory. So we just didn't have the inflated costs, show through all the way to our consumer. And so it helped us
Mark D. Williams<br> 41:19
what once we so from a walk me through the next, what is the next couple of years look like in terms of you know, where are you seeing the best growth for either awareness? Or is it more of a slow? You know, step by step? Um, you seems like you're starting to get some nationwide interest in the year, I like the idea that you turn down the hotel twice, I guess, where do you see the company three years from now and even five years from now in terms of a growth model here in Minnesota, and then possibly even, you know, branching out and other parts of the country?
Ville Kämäräinen 41:50
Right. So if you look at the whole Boustead group, what its vision is and what it wants to become, and B's is the most responsible providers, cabinet provider in the tourism markets, and that meaning that you give the consumer the choice of the option of making a sustainable choice. So that's here, do we want to be that responsible entity here, and then geographically, we see demand pockets. We the whole state of California is big in its size of France. So it should be big too. But we see also good amount of demand and like very good alignment with what we offer. Same from from the East Coast. And then there's states like, Florida is actually I wouldn't have bet on that. But
Mark D. Williams<br> 42:44
you mentioned about the water. I mean, between the between the hurricanes and the humidity, you have some crazy, you know, obviously moisture issues down in Florida in general, I have to imagine your cabinetry would do amazing down there. That's
Ville Kämäräinen 42:58
actually come through Yeah, we have actually seen that demand in that particular comment. That's a good, that's a good point. And then there's states like Colorado, we have done first projects there. And then, of course, the surrounding states. So the growth is in primarily in those areas where we clearly see the demand. And it's easy to like, we basically serve the clients that come from out of state, the ones that are most active, what we see the best fit that, you know, basically, these people would be fun to work with. Right. And that's kind of the California
Mark D. Williams<br> 43:32
obviously has always pushed a lot of climate changes to their population and from I'm not from California, but just read the news, like a normal person. I suspect that you know, in Washington and Oregon, I mean, that whole West Coast band would be a good spot. I mean, it would California be the next spot to open a spot just based on demographics plus the population alone, it seems kind of like almost like a no brainer, right? I mean, their population is huge. Yeah,
Ville Kämäräinen 43:57
let's say that's what we're scoping very thoroughly right now. Okay.
Mark D. Williams<br> 44:00
And what I mean, I've never expanded a company outside of the state, what what is entailed in actually doing some of the research? I think that'd be sort of interesting to hear, like, from a mindset, like, what kind of market? Would you pay a third party to do market research? Are you reaching out to other, you know, not cabinet shops, but other builders are? Like, how does one go about understanding and this could be applicable to, let's say, I'm going to build it in another city. But in this case, you're building another state. I'm just kind of curious about the mindset of how you go about even doing that.
Ville Kämäräinen 44:29
That's a good question, too. And I think COVID Extra changed some of the purchasing behavior. So all of a sudden, people were ready to buy kitchens, without seeing anyone or anything in person. And that little bit threw us off to it's like, are you serious, but if your assistant is willing to we'll do it sure that
Mark D. Williams<br> 44:47
you know, that makes that's a great answer, because we got so used to being at home and locked in and everything was done remotely, that the days of actually having to go to a show and receive a model home in person was sort of weird. It was sort of trained out of us is that kind of But you're saying like people are much more accepting, like, Hey, okay, you can build it online? Sure, great. When can you show up and do it? Yeah.
Ville Kämäräinen 45:04
And to the point where that we just installed the product word, it was a Minnesota client, a few miles from the showroom didn't bother to come visit us, because that's amazing enough trust, we brought the samples home. So the sale was done remotely. And that being the half the point is that sales can be done remotely. Install has to be local, and sold as remodel. So we have to be able to combine the sales aspect, sale and design aspect of it, the remodel aspect of it, if it's a remodel, project, new builds are easier. And then the install. So essentially, the remodel business is local. And that's what we need to be able to build and how that's built into other countries is that there is local representation, it's an entrepreneur running their own show. And they take care of the sale and install, well, sales, design delivery installed the whole thing. So it'll be local, and how the model exact is it's the closest we're now is a dealership model where the dealer would take care of both the sales and design aspect of it, and then the install and then get the remodel business on top of
Mark D. Williams<br> 46:20
that. So other than location, you're trying to find what city would be the best to hotbed going back to the original question exactly. How are you doing? What kind of how do you do the research of knowing like a what state to pick? Number one? And then number two, What city do you even open into? Like what has to go into kind of queueing these things up?
Ville Kämäräinen 46:41
Multiple layers. One is, and what's a big one is to sustainability aspects of what's the awareness, what's customer's interest, and willingness to pay? And maybe need to elaborate on that a little bit. So we're at about custom cabinet price range, roughly speaking. And so you're not necessarily paying massive premium to get something that has that promise of low VOC sustainability, all that. So that's roughly where we're at. But can I go back to the question? And, yeah,
Mark D. Williams<br> 47:16
just basically, if you're franchising or expanding it to another state, what is some of the what are some of the things that you have to do? You know, if I was going to, let's say, open up a custom home company in Sacramento, California, you know, I don't know why picked out just came to mind. So, you know, I would want to know, like, hey, how many homes are being built a year? You know, I'd probably call four or five of the lumber yards, I'd probably make a visit out there and go see what kind of homes are being built. I'm just kind of curious as a cabinet shop, how are you getting, like what actually says, you know, what, we're moving to this day? Because like, I mean, frankly, from market research standpoint, it took us two minutes to get the fact that I think California is a good spot. So right now we're in California, if you go, do you do more than one do you kind of double down? Which is I'm just curious, like, why, you know, they have this phrase, right? where the rubber meets the road, you know, what is the next step? Like? What what is preventing you from going to California? What's the next steps? And what helped you get either, you know, from PSLE, and Finland to help with that? Or Is that really your domain as being, you know, essentially the CEO of the United States?
Ville Kämäräinen 48:19
Yeah, the process is led by us and the initial the first question that what are those kinds of research layers? One of them is simply the demand that we see. Because if we give take any half year period, we get demand from about 2030 different states. So we have the history, we have the seven years of kill cumulative data of where the demand comes from, without us just trying to block not not be seen in those days. But still, there's demand, then we can look at different states with their environmental consciousness, basically. And then, low VOC is one of those things that you lot of builders are starting to hear now, from what we hear from them. And low VOC in general, that awareness for the indoor air quality, what we talked about earlier about indoor air having the 10 times more VOCs than the outside air, and that's because of how we build them. So that's something that we see that demand, then there is aspects that we look at, which is the logistics of it, is it like if you look at it current projects, is it easy to get to but then like where do we expand the economic power of that region is one factor and if you look at just different like LA in California is not to say La there's many different areas that you can have multiple showrooms in so there's plenty of it's like some of the areas are no no brainers like we can exhaustive analysis of it, but we can see that there's plenty of demand, right.
Mark D. Williams<br> 49:57
So then when, I guess going back to the to my earlier question, is it going to happen the next three years, five years? What would be what would be the catalyst of events that would say, we're going there?
Ville Kämäräinen 50:09
So the simplest form is what we're doing now in California that we're just training in installer, okay, because we can sell we have the demand, we can sell remotely, we need someone to install them. So we're training installer. So that's the first and easiest form of local establishment. Yeah.
Mark D. Williams<br> 50:25
All right, that makes a ton of sense. One thing that we had talked about, I think, a week or two ago, just because I'm struggling with I think every business owner struggles with cash flow management, you know, what are, you know, it's always kind of interesting to hear that you're not alone on an island that everyone struggles with the same thing. I had a meeting today, with our account team, and, you know, you know, in a, we do cost plus accounting, you know, with our clients, so we're always in arrears. Meaning we're obviously we're always, we're always behind billing. And so it's a struggle, because it's like, you know, you look at your p&l statement, and you're like, well, actually, we have more money than, you know, we're doing well. But then you look at your cash flow, and you look at your bank account, you're like, Why do I feel like a popper? For in a commercial setting? You know, you're a bigger company than us. How do you guys manage cash flow? Or what are some things that you've seen to kind of help navigate those waters, because I think it appeals that regardless of what you do for business, everyone can relate to that.
Ville Kämäräinen 51:19
actually thought about it after our conversation. In my previous role, I was one of the jobs I had, I had multiple jobs in that, you know, about 10 year period that was working with the working with the company. But one of the roles and the last role that I was in, I was a director of a business unit that the size of it was 26 million euros, about $30 million in annual revenue. And we had the it was the Stockholm area. And in hospitality, that hospitality setting, we have parts and pieces there. And I was running that business unit. And I was thinking that what actually changed, what was the biggest change when I started in this role was actually exactly that. So I was running the business with kind of the metrics of the conventional metrics of your revenue, your profitability, and then the industry specific metrics of, you know, ADRs, and, you know, hospitality, you have to look how many rooms are sold and occupation, occupancy rates, and so that you lead with metrics and hop into the CEO shoes. What is that? What's your primary metric is the cash flow. And I like it, I think it is also very unique in this industry is that, like, if we sold hotel nights, you're staying might the individual transaction might have been $100. And there's a, you know, there's 1000s, after 1000s of those, so there is that kind of like, and the money comes in right away. Or, like, if you look at insurance, you get you give them the money, and don't even know if you're ever gonna use any services. Yeah, that's so they get the money up front. In this industry, you're at the back end Do you like and you still might take the risk of someone not paying your bill or delaying the payment? So I think our industry is unfortunately one of the one of the top ones. And then it's us to that if you look at the Kevin Lynch side of it, if you had a project that was, you know, house with cabinet cabinets, countertops installed everything, it's let's say it was $4,000 project. Now, there might be a little side comment that comes from the sales designers mouth, okay, this project was delayed by a month, take that cash was also just delayed by a month. Yeah. So that needs what we work with to and it like, probably quite conventional ways of working with it, you know, you have your payment terms and, and credit line and like those things that you can build into it. But it is primarily just the keeping the focus on the sales, fun things. And
Mark D. Williams<br> 54:00
so we I talked to a company, and actually, I will refrain from saying their name. They've been on the podcast before, but I think I can share the story. It was really that they would during the pandemic, their lead times got so far out. So this particular product was, you know, 20 to 30 weeks out, and it came early in the build. And so the consequence was as builders like myself, as soon as we signed a contract, even for the permit was pulled, we would order this product and knowing that I wanted it to be sitting in their warehouse versus my house being stalled out because I couldn't get it. Well then projects would be delayed or permits would be delayed. And so this company was you know, sitting on, I'm sure this they're not alone in this. We're sitting on millions of dollars of accounts receivable, that I'm sure they had to pay their parent company on their terms, but they couldn't collect the cash until delivery. And it was a major problem and they ended up buying a warehouse was to store all this stuff. And you know, I don't have to deal with that. But it was like it kind of was an eye opening experience. I think so many people learned, really very painful cashflow lessons during the pandemic, especially if you are a supplier. Yeah, we
Ville Kämäräinen 55:15
I think our backbone, which we probably don't remember to be grateful enough is the punctuality of the factory, anything we order goes through in four to five weeks. And we can count on that we have learned to count on it coming through our own pipeline, in a very controlled manner. So we can count on being able to deliver, of course, there is the shipping component of it. But we have learned to work with that we have the warehouse where we can, we can store the stuff. So I think that's one of those things that we're not relying on someone else's delivery, we have a control chain, and it helps with the cash as well, because we know that okay, this is when we can sign the contract, we know that we can count on the factory to make the products we need. And then the rest of the process, like when the products are delivered here in a sealed container, we can receive it and then schedule the install. So we're fortunate in that that we have a controlled environment for our own things. It doesn't change make it anything, everything peachy for the cash flow management, but
Mark D. Williams<br> 56:21
it does help. Yeah, I can imagine it plus you have reliable partners, because it's in everyone's best interest, right? Because like you said, you have a vertical I guess what is it called vertical Supply Chain Management, you're all basically owned by the same company, right? Is Out of curiosity is pacella cabinets here in Minneapolis? Are they owned by Finland? Or is it a Is it like a franchisor its own entity here?
Ville Kämäräinen 56:43
So at this point is a separately own business entity? Yep. And very close ties. Okay.
Mark D. Williams<br> 56:50
I don't know much about it. From the standpoint is that because it's the United States and a parent company is in another country and Finland or that was just a decision that made the most sense for them, because you had an entrepreneur was Miko, right? So it was basically is he still here? Is he still involved with the company? Okay,
Ville Kämäräinen 57:05
both me going on.
Mark D. Williams<br> 57:06
Okay. How often do you guys I mean, how often do you see him? Or is he in the office every
Ville Kämäräinen 57:09
week? For sure? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And like that, there's basically two separate entities is one is the factory. And then the other is the sales, sales portion of, of the business. So that's how the post elite business is structured in other countries as well, that the factory is separate from the sales entities, however, they're as close together as they can be without being in the same books. Right.
Mark D. Williams<br> 57:35
Right. Okay, that makes sense. Maybe just the last thing here, we'll kind of transition to just a few personal things about you just cuz I was kind of interesting to see how business owners operate. But, you know, Minnesota has obviously a lot of Scandinavian roots. You know, I'm, I think I don't think I have a lot any Finnish. I'm mostly Swedish, and other and Norwegian, and then a bunch of other things. But primarily those, the route where I'm going with this question is, do you find that the Finnish population in Minnesota is really excited? You know, when they find out that they've got a Finnish cabinet company? Do you find that you have a lot of friends that reach out to you in particular, because it feels like either home or it feels like a connection that they can relate to?
Ville Kämäräinen 58:16
You know, it is a very, it's a community that knows each other. And there's actually a lot of friends that have been in interesting roles here. So I think could safely say that Minnesotans know us, like Finnish Minnesotans know us. But then there has been like the autosomal Vansickle was conducting the Minnesota Orchestra, you know, there has been Sakakawea with as captain for wild leads, right? There's a lot of that like, and If Finn fins act like they're not probably we're incredibly proud of, you know, the fins that are seen here. Yeah. But I don't know. I might have forgotten your question.
Mark D. Williams<br> 58:55
No, no, you got it. I mean, just that there's a lot of enthusiasm for home. I mean, I would be to it. Oddly enough. This is funny because I remember having a I run sometimes in the wintertime and I had this really cool white nordic ski hat because I was thinking of I always see all the fences dominating like the biathlon, or that yeah, the biathlon and other Olympic skiing Nordic events. But anyway, that your your flag is amazing, right? It's the Blue Cross and it's and I remember liking it, but I'd always wear it and because I obviously look Scandinavia and a little bit people would always ask if I was finished because I had the Finnish flag and I'm like, No, I love this hat. But I'm actually Norwegian and Swedish. And I like their hats too. But I just happen to like that white hat but I sometimes think guys like I'm an adopted Finn. Yeah.
Ville Kämäräinen 59:33
If you want to win the Nordic skiing, you got to have the Norwegian hat. Unfortunately what they pretty good. Yeah. We
Mark D. Williams<br> 59:40
got Jessie Diggins and Stillwater. Minnesota is amazing. She's incredible. Yeah.
Ville Kämäräinen 59:44
And I think to your point about the Minnesota and Finnish connection, I think that's living its renaissance right. Right now in the US Finnish connection overall. Finland is the size of Minnesota that. And then if you look at just the fact that Governor Walz just made that trip with a delegation to Finland, it's not every governor that does that. That was great. But there's Minnesota is one of the trade, like one of the chosen six states that Finland has has made its strategic partnership with. So that's like Minnesota Finland connection now, just maybe a week or two ago, both the Biden and Harris Harris administration just said they both actually, about it. And Biden, Harris separately talked about Nokia, the Finnish company that is just now expanding here. Building high speed internet for the Biden. Here's administration, one of the big programs. So there's a lot of things going on thin spot. F 30. Fives a lot of them. There's a lot of things going on bilaterally right now. The US just became the biggest trading partner for Finland. That's first time in history. Oh, that's really cool. Yeah. So there's lots going on. And I mean, the chamber of the Finnish American Chamber of Commerce, the volunteer hours, trying to help build that bridge so
Mark D. Williams<br> 1:01:12
well, and I think I had mentioned to you, we're working with a Finnish hockey player here on a remodel and then I'm really big sauna enthusiast. And so I my world has exploded the last couple of years and talking with fans and their saunas. And so I think now between weaselly cabinets, and in all the different kinds of sauna elements, I'm definitely getting an exposure to Finland. Now, I think the next thing is I need to go to Finland, and do a little tour we've been I've been to other parts of northeastern Europe, but I've not been to Finland.
Ville Kämäräinen 1:01:43
Yeah, I'd love to set up a tour for you. And then that would be amazing. Yeah, yeah,
Mark D. Williams<br> 1:01:48
I think I might actually get my wife to go on one curious builder travels to Finland. We might that I wouldn't know that would be a very good business right off. Sounds good. Sounds good. Well, as we come in here for the clothes, what are tell us a little few personal things, you know, what do you like to do for fun? Or how do you unwind when you're when you're not creating a finished cabinet? Empire?
Ville Kämäräinen 1:02:06
Yeah, I actually didn't necessarily prepare for the for the question, but I do like sports. Like you do, too. We share that. I do like music, playing some music. So you might find me playing guitar started playing violin. Oh, nice. Oh, who starts filing it?
Mark D. Williams<br> 1:02:25
Cool. I got to stay curious how?
Ville Kämäräinen 1:02:27
Yeah, that I've thought about that. Yeah,
Mark D. Williams<br> 1:02:28
I mean that it keeps you young. How old are your children now?
Ville Kämäräinen 1:02:32
They're 10 and 13. Okay.
Mark D. Williams<br> 1:02:34
Are they interested in music as well? Yep. Yeah. And like,
Ville Kämäräinen 1:02:38
how much of that is forced down their throats in the wild? I actually think they're, they're actually interested. But
Mark D. Williams<br> 1:02:43
yeah, my daughter she told me the other day she wanted to do the violin as like, I can play the piano a little bit. Let's start with the piano first. See if you like that before we go down the violin road. Yeah,
Ville Kämäräinen 1:02:52
it's one of the challenging ones that you have to do a little bit of work to get to enjoy it right.
Mark D. Williams<br> 1:02:57
Oh, interesting. So where can our listeners find you if they want to reach out to you and they're interested in your in your company and what you have to offer?
Ville Kämäräinen 1:03:04
So postally usa.com does to us after the P That's the website and then we are on Instagram. You can find it if you search with booster USA same with Facebook and you can find us of course on YouTube as well but you know the following there isn't isn't the greatest but Instagram and Facebook are the main channels. There's something on LinkedIn. Okay,
Mark D. Williams<br> 1:03:31
yeah. And we'll have everything taken the show notes as well. And thank you again for coming on the curious builder and for everyone listening if you want to reach out, please rate and review the show and I can always hook you up directly with V Les and thanks again for coming on. Thanks
Ville Kämäräinen 1:03:45
for having me. And I think you managed to get a fin detox success in yourself.
Mark D. Williams<br> 1:03:51
Wonderful. Well, I do you say thank you and finish gave
Ville Kämäräinen 1:03:53
us kilos ki das ketose.
Mark D. Williams<br> 1:03:56
Yep. All right. Ketos kilos signing ketose let me just check in with Ian here real quick. All right, we all good Ian. All right. Thumbs Up All right. Do you want shot hit? All let me just practice this in so I'll hit and recording Correct. I hear a thumbs up there. All right, so I'm gonna hit and recording
