Episode 100 - Losers are Winners: Josh Frei Fought Fires for 17 Years Then Started One
Episode #100 | Losers are Winners | Josh Frei Fought Fires for 17 Years Then Started One
Josh Frei spent 17 years as a firefighter before pivoting to custom saunas, which means he already knew how to show up calm, problem solve fast, and never leave a job half done. He and Mark talk through the lessons learned when too many cooks in the kitchen cost a project days of rework, why a quick phone call beats an email thread every single time, and how Symmetry earned a lifetime partnership by driving benches across the country in a rental truck. Also: a former firefighter helping people sweat on purpose is the kind of career pivot that writes its own theme song, and yes, his crew actually made one.
About The Curious Builder
The host of the Curious Builder Posdast is Mark D. Williams, the founder of Mark D. Williams Custom Homes Inc. They are an award-winning Twin Cities-based home builder, creating quality custom homes and remodels — one-of-a-kind dream homes of all styles and scopes. Whether you’re looking to reimagine your current space or start fresh with a new construction, we build homes that reflect how you live your everyday life.
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Josh Fry 00:05
We won't do a cheap sauna that you can get from Go to Home Depot and get some lumber and put on the walls, but we do have more value-engineered options that are a bit more simple, but they're going to be do it once, do it right, you know. We're going to build you the sauna that's going to last you decades, and you're not going to have to replace it in five years.
Mark D. Williams 00:29
Welcome to Pierce Peter Podcast. I'm Mark Williams, your host. We are back at Misa, who is for round three of podcast recording after our big industry event. We've got Josh Fry from you, flying from Idaho,
Josh Fry 00:39
I flew him from Seattle. Coeur d'Alene.
Mark D. Williams 00:42
Okay, I love.. so I got introduced to you through Kelly Sunbrook. She's been on the podcast, Beachside Gyms. Hey Kelly, thanks for introducing us. She came to Curious Builder Boot Camp. She put in our whole wellness studio that you were a part of, and I wanted to talk a little bit about, you know, today's our Thursday episodes. We'll talk a little bit about me, so who's maybe at the end, but as business owners, we all learn a lot more from where we fail than where we succeed. So I always like to ask guests when they first come on as a good fail story, like what you know, either production through design. I find that as we develop our careers and our businesses, when we basically, every day is a school day, is one of my guys likes to say, and so when we, when we fail a client, or when we fail someone on our internal team, it's what we learn in that process that helps us make us be better business owners. So, how long you've been at Symmetry, and what have you got for your fail story?
Josh Fry 01:34
Absolutely, well, super excited to be here. Love the house, it's beautiful. I've been at Symmetry about three and a half years, company's about four years old, so just about from the beginning. Before that, I was a firefighter for 17 years. Got a broad..
Mark D. Williams 01:48
that's actually perfect, because you're firefighting all the time.
Josh Fry 01:51
There's a lot of skills that translated over that I never thought would translate over, but problem solving, you know, along the lines of being able to adapt and overcome and be flexible, that was huge in the fire service in the industry. Every time the tones go off, we're going to fix somebody's problem that we know nothing about, and we've got to show up and bring calm, problem solve, and then execute really quickly a solution. It's
Mark D. Williams 02:16
ironic that you're in a heated space company, meaning saunas, and you spent 17 years trying to put the heat out, that's I'm sure I'm not the first person to draw that parallel, but do you sort of enjoy the irony of that?
Josh Fry 02:28
I do. I do. When I was leaving my department, my crew used AI to write a song for me, and it.. it's.. I'll have to send it to you, maybe you can link it in the background, but it's.. it's about fighting fire of a different kind, and pouring water on stones, and it's pretty catchy. Okay, that's actually pretty good. You definitely
Mark D. Williams 02:46
have to send that one. That might be a standalone reel, by the sounds of it. So, what are some things that you've learned? Well, I mean, even in firefighting, honestly, I mean, I think at this point that sounds really interesting too. But I guess, what are some.. this doesn't always have to be about business, it could be a personal life, but if you got one from fighting fires, where it went wrong, and maybe one in sauna design or implementation, where it went wrong, and you learned something from
Josh Fry 03:08
it. Probably, we'll see if something pops up from the fire service. I don't have to dig down a little bit, but in the sauna industry, we're a nationwide company. We work from Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, build custom saunas and install all over the country. Largely, we don't do or don't need to do a lot of site visits before. We're working with contractors, they're doing site measurements and providing pictures, but some of the more striking fails have been where we have lacked on the preparation, the communication to understand what we're walking into, and one in particular that I can think of, you know, we want, we, our installers showed up custom built, you know, all of the, you know, we call them kind of furniture pieces, benches, backrests are done, ready to go to the measurements of the space, and kind of similar to the space we're in, there were a wall of windows that we did not know existed in the space, and we've got all of these benches that are supposed to be up to a wall, and people are leaning against this wall in backrests, and it's like, oh, okay, well, we're here, the sauna is going to be installed, and we could throw our hands up and walk away and redo the whole thing and start fresh, and our installers adapted, overcame. They ended up essentially rebuilding the entire bench structure on site, adapted it to fit the space, and took an extra couple of days on site, but being flexible to be able to make those changes and end with happy customer in a successful project.
Mark D. Williams 04:38
What in just dissecting that one in particular was the plans that were not shared by the builder or the GC, were they not accurate? I mean, it seems how what was missed that you as your team did not know that there were windows there.
Josh Fry 04:53
I think in that one it was a series of too many cooks in the kitchen, too many points of contact on the project. Side homeowners often are involved in the design decisions, which is great. We want them to understand and know what they're getting, but then communication from the homeowner, from the contractor, from the designer, and it was overlooked that we never asked for that type of information, or perhaps we asked and the wrong person gave the answer. I didn't have to double check exactly what happened on that one, but I
Mark D. Williams 05:21
mean, it happens all the time, right? I mean, communication is like the old game of telephone, right, around the campfire as a kid, you know. It starts with whatever, and by the time it ends, it's completely different. Absolutely. I think, you know, no one likes to meet to meet, but you know, having an agenda or having points of contact. One of my number one things as an owner is asking my team, has anyone called that person? I think I'm still of an old enough generation that I tend to call people. I mean, you and I at Facetime, and I'm glad you picked up. I'm glad I somehow got your cell phone number, which I know is not common, but I mean we were doing the, you know, we had 100 fiber optic lights that were, you know, in the instructions, and you even said, like, that is not super clear, like we could not tell you, know, sometimes you just need a human to interact with them, so you know we're basically, we want this to be amazing and beautiful, and it certainly is, but that, you know, that I would rather trust but verify. Yes, I understand the instructions, tell me to do this, but that doesn't make sense to me, and that just I don't, I don't love it when people just do what they're told, like I want you to use your brain, for sure. And I, in that particular case, I was like, 'Let's call Josh. And so we Facetime you. It was early in the morning, too, because we're two hours, you know, time difference from where you were. Luckily, we're able to get you, and it was a simple thing. It was just, 'Hey, okay, let's do it. So I,
Josh Fry 06:37
and in that case, you know, a quick phone call, we were on maybe five minutes on the phone or something saved you the delay of having to be like oh go ahead and pause guys I find out sending an email getting it through to me when did I get it when I get reply time delay confusion just pop on the phone I'm a huge fan as well of just make a phone call I would rather be in person if I can and that's a big reason why I took the trip out here is the relationship, the in-person contact, like we can do six months or a year worth of relationship building in one day in person, instead of phone calls or emails or video chats.
Mark D. Williams 07:15
I think, too. Don't you think that I'd be curious to your perspective on this? A lot of people that listen to the podcast, are trade partners of ours, but of just people in general, and there are.. I understand it's a big sacrifice, you know. Family, obviously, time is a big one, expense, but I will say this, that the people that travel like it, me, it means something. I think it's worthwhile for us, as let's say, in this case, I'm a builder, it matters when our partners, our sponsors, I want to provide value to the people we partner with, of course, but also for them to leverage the best use of their partnership is to be in person at these types of events, and so it's, it was, it's also very humbling to know that we probably had, I think I had about eight to 10 different partners flying from around the country for the event that we threw on today. I actually think, I mean, it's very humbling, because people, they spent the money to come, they valued the time that they would be here, not only for that, it would mean something to me, that's.. I don't think that's why they did it, and if they did, that's okay too, like I appreciate that, but they also realize that there's more value to these in-person connections, and I think it's easy to hit sort of the, you know, the zoom button, and we all do it, we need to, because you can't fly everywhere all the time, but I think it matters to show up in person, and it's a commitment to the relationship, I can't fly my house to you, but you know, at least not yet, but you can come here to see the house, and so anyway. Thank you, A, for coming, but B, I think it's, I guess, where do you fall in that continuum, and what benefit or what message do you think the audience would, would get from sort of like your commitment as a brand partner to actually flying to your clients, you know, locations, because I don't think everyone would do that.
Josh Fry 09:03
Yeah, do both. Do you remember the first Zoom meeting we had?
Mark D. Williams 09:06
Oh, sure, I do. I think I had you guys laughing pretty good, as I recall.
Josh Fry 09:09
Yeah, and then about five minutes in, you admitted, like, I took this as a courtesy to be nice to you guys until we showed you the product, which I don't
Mark D. Williams 09:18
remember that, but that does seem very on brand for me, because that was well, Kelly, Kelly's like, I will, you know, when your friends say meet with someone, like, I will meet with anyone, yeah, because obviously I trust Kelly's judgment, and she was, she knocked it out of the park in this case, for sure, when it comes to quality, craftsmanship, and performance, Pella sets the standard. Whether you're building custom homes or designing a timeless space, Pella offers innovative window and door solutions that blend beauty and efficiency with showrooms and experts around the country. Pella makes it easy to find the perfect fit for your next project and their team to support it. Build with confidence. Build with Pella. Visit pella.com to explore products and connect with your local rep today. For more information, you can listen to episode one or listen to episode 109 where we bring on Pella owners and founders at Pella Northland, as well as their innovative team behind the Steady Set Innovation. I mean, I immediately knew that I liked you guys, because you guys were just funny, and you guys could take a joke, and so it's like I think at the end of the day, you know, you obviously want to work with people that you trust, and then bring a lot of value, for sure, but you also want to just work with people that you enjoy, exactly.
Josh Fry 10:30
And so, and that's where it parlays into your question, making the trip, getting out here, going to dinner tonight, you know, grabbing a bite to eat, and you really get to know somebody, and that I think is a hugely undervalued portion of a business, business relationships, networking today with the digital world, with the remote world, taking the time to get to know people, and you're going to work together, you trust them better, you have probably a little more grace if, when the mistakes happen, I don't say if, because mistakes happen, or delays happen or I agree with that, you know, this person, and it's like, hey, I know that was kind of a whoopsie, but we're gonna get through it, and I know they're gonna make it up and learn from that mistake and move forward. I
Mark D. Williams 11:11
think you're right. I mean, the deeper the relationship, the more you're able to sort of like tolerate the wrong word, but like sort of endure difficult things that happen. Sometimes it's the project, you know, Mises was one of the most difficult builds I've ever done in my career, for a variety of reasons that we won't go into in this podcast, but you know, Melissa Oland, our design partner on the house, called it the Misa curse, like there was a lot of things, and a lot of it's when you try a lot of new things all at the same time, like it's, you know, I think we sometimes forget we're building a prototype, you know, and like, really, in many ways, a really shout out to your team at Symmetry. Is it wasn't that we threw you under the bus, but we put you guys in a difficult situation because we were really far along with the house and your normal protocol for production and for design, really you didn't have enough time for what I was asking, and part of that was on me. I think we had first met in the fall, I think between December and January, whether I was traveling or being busy or whatever. I remember I held a busy
Josh Fry 12:09
guy or anything.
Mark D. Williams 12:10
Yeah, I'm not busy at all, but I remember I held the ball for a long time, mainly because the saunas that I had done in the past, like I could know, I know I could make a call and I could build a sauna about 10 days, pretty easy, not the sauna.
Speaker 1 12:21
Yeah,
Mark D. Williams 12:21
I mean, not the complexity. And I do, you know, to be honest, like, I remember having a little sticker shock when I first saw, like, the design, and some of the.. just because I had built, like, a lot of builders, we'd built a lot of saunas, and I was immediately captivated by the two things that struck me. Was a.. I just trusted the process. I didn't. I always tell people I have to work with them about three times before I understand, because it's the first one. If they hit it out of the park, well, is that because it's the first one? And if they drop it, well, is that because it's the first one? So I kind of have this rule of threes, you know? I want to use a painter on three homes, I want to use a partner three times, because I feel like you have to work on the relationship. I don't think it's a fair ass to be like the first time has to be perfect, right? And even if it is, that's actually, will it continue? Because there are plenty, or even like everyone knows, like
Josh Fry 13:07
the honeymoon phase, yeah, the best of the first one,
Mark D. Williams 13:10
right? Yeah, right. And so I do think you need three. I mean, that's kind of my rule, and I keep saying it, because I think I believe it. And so, but going back to the sauna, is like, I remember when I wrote the check, and I was like, am I going to get my ROI on this, but I was willing, I was like, well, I've gone this far, you guys have been amazing to work with, the personality, it was the starry sky and the salt wall that really is what nailed it for me esthetically, and then once I put it in, I was like, oh man, this is the coolest thing I've done in a long time, and I was so glad that I trusted my gut and sort of my commitment to just continuing the process, because then to me it wasn't about money, it was about value, and for me value is more important than money, in the value that I put on what I was able to produce, or we were able to produce, and also understanding and respecting like what you guys bring to the table that was sort of a learning lesson, also for me, and I'm again, that's where I trusted Callie, and then I trusted, you know, the process of going through it, but sometimes you just have to, you just have to try.
Josh Fry 14:13
Yeah, yeah, we have a new phrase at Symmetry, it's not just a sauna, it's therapeutic art.
Mark D. Williams 14:18
Oh, I like that, therapeutic art, I like that a lot. There's another one I heard recently, like people love to talk about price per square foot, which builders hate. It's a performance per foot, that's going to be my new one. How much is Asana? Performance per foot puts it somewhere in the 40 to $50,000 range, or like, you know, you could come up with some other.. forget even money, just put a value. I don't know, but I think reframing the question honestly is sort of important, and again, going back to value, I think for me a value statement is how often do you use something. I personally sauna like three in the wintertime, I sauna probably three to five times. Right now it's pretty hot out, so I probably sauna once a week right now, because it's blasted 90 degrees. In human, I don't really, I run in a sauna, I don't really want to be in a sauna, although technically I think for heat training it's really, it's probably a good idea to, yeah, I remember when I was training for my ultra in the evening after I put the kids to bed, I find the sauna, I think that's what's fun, particularly about what you brought to the table for me is elevating, like we build a really elevated house, but I'd never yet really done an elevated sauna, and seeing some of the work that you guys had done was really eye-opening, and really highlighted my lack of true knowledge in that department, which is fine. I honestly lack knowledge in most of the areas. That's why I depend on my partner so, so deeply, the design partners, the architect partners, and now every son I do, I'll be having you guys, you know, as a consultant, essentially in introducing you to the team. Now, not every client is going to pay for it or do it, but that's fine. Just saying, hey, if you want home of this caliber, this is what you're going to need to do in this area, and it might not be aligned with their value system, but that's really for me and you to sort of work through with whatever that client's goals are,
Josh Fry 16:01
and that's a nice thing with symmetry, is really specialize in the custom curated high end luxury saunas, but we won't do a cheap sauna that you can get from go to Home Depot and get some lumber and put on the walls, but we do have more value engineered options that are a bit more simple, but they're going to be do it once, do it right, you know, we're going to build you the sauna that's going to last you decades, and you're not going to have to replace it in five years, because there's a lot of e-commerce songs out there right now where you better expect it on a replacement cycle.
Mark D. Williams 16:32
What are there any partnerships that you've had where to kind of go more the spirit of this episode of like losers or winners? Are there partnerships that you've had were like the partner that you depended on let you down, maybe like a product or a manufacturer or shipping, or like I'm guessing you've had this, like we all want to tell the client, in this case me, what they want to hear, but sometimes what we want to hear isn't what we need to hear, because like mainly timing, right, so it's like hey, I need this done in the next 60 days, and let's say your process is 90 days, and you're like, I could tell Mark what he wants to hear, but that's only going to set us up for failure at a later date. How do you guys sort of handle those types of, you know, lessons that you've learned? Because I think we've all done them, I know I have.
Josh Fry 17:15
Yeah, I one that comes to mind is a product that we got from a supplier, and there was some, you know, best of intention assumptions from that supplier about how they would be fulfilling the mutual relationship to develop the product to iterate as things come up, make some improvements, support with with manuals and things like that for installation, and pretty quickly into the relationship, we started to see pullback and resistance and blaming, and so that was a challenge, but then navigating how to either hold them accountable to what was originally brought to the agreement or to pivot and do it a different way when the product, the market enjoyed their product, but being able to fulfill it with the support and the quality was falling apart pretty quickly because of a lack of standing up to the agreements.
Mark D. Williams 18:10
I mean, I think we've all experienced companies like that. Have you ever had any companies that they failed, but how they handled the failure actually cemented the fact that they'd be your partner in the future.
Josh Fry 18:23
Trying to think off top my head,
Mark D. Williams 18:27
I mean, I can give you, I can give you two, mainly just because it comes to me, because we're in the house of one of them. So, and I've mentioned this before on the podcast. Shout out to Glass Art Design, Andrew Lejeune, and Mike, I've had them on the podcast. The first build we ever had with them about right after Covid went terribly, maybe one of the worst relationship subcontractor, and I wasn't working with the owners of the company, right as the owner, I tend to work with owners, and anyway, my team kept saying, oh, this is terrible, this is terrible, and anyway, long story short, the way they handled the failure, it was so impressive, and it was a bad failure, to be clear, and, but I will be very loyal to them for decades to come, because of how they handled it was so impressive. And to this, hey, every class that you see in all the glass you see in this house, all my homes, is all from glass art, because of how they handle it, and how they respond to it. And I think what I'm trying to get out of this is, like, we all fail. I've failed, you've failed. I think failure is inevitable. It's really what we do and how we process it. And I'm, you know, I think when we're in it, looking back, we wish.. I know there's things I wish I'd.. I mean, think about it like a fight with your spouse, right? You know, it's like the next day, the next text train.. you're like, "Oh, I definitely could have handled that better. And, like, does it.. I mean, I guess it's just part of life, it's just part of how it goes, and I feel bad, and the reason I bring up the story, you know, in more detail like this is that I think it's important for us to realize that failures happen, and then how we respond happens, but even if we don't have the best response, there can still be a better future if they're given a chance, and I, and so I, you know, it might take a little time, I remember one time. Had an excavator, and he was just really had an attitude, and that's one of my few things that are sort of communication and bad attitudes are kind of like my two hot buttons, and anyway, he oddly enough was bad at both, but anyway, he, but it was his community, it was his attitude, he was just grumpy McStuffins, and so I just finally said, you know what, Troy, we got to take a break, so we took a break for like two years, and I don't know what happened, but he started doing our work again. The nicest, cheeriest, now it might be a bit of a put on now, because I call him, he's always like, "Hey, Marky, like I know you know he knows me for a long time when they call me Marky. Yeah, totally, which is fine. I'd rather have that. I mean, not that you have to deny, you know, real emotions, I'm fine with that, but I guess my point is, sometimes you just need a break, but that doesn't mean the relationship is over forever. And I think anyone who's been in business long enough knows that, like, don't burn bridges. I think it's just really bad. You can stop driving on them, you can take a break, but don't burn them. Like, in what world does it make sense to burn a bridge? It just doesn't. It might, in the moment, your anger might get a hold of you, and it might feel good. I don't even think, honestly, it probably doesn't even feel good if we just think, like, oh, we need to throw it or wreck it or destroy it, because that's our inner child checking a Lego, but yeah, it never turns out well,
Josh Fry 21:11
no, and I think it's, I think you've got, you know, whether you're burning the bridges or, you know, looking at the impacts of the relationship, I think you can have physical capital, you know, you can have financial loss due to an error or mistake, and I think you, the underappreciated part is the relationship capital, that depending on how it's handled, you could have a burned relationship, a lost relationship, or maybe you lose financial capital in the short term, but you've earned that relationship capital that's going to make up the financial capital over time,
Mark D. Williams 21:41
agreed. I mean, we just said, you know, you were sitting here earlier, because we've, you know, had a number of our partners here in the house, and so we're booking up some, some podcasts here, but Anthony from Alpine Hardwood, you know, he's helped me out in some really difficult situations, about, and it's like, as long as I'm building a home, he'll do my floors, because of how he helped in that situation, and I think you know, I think when you arrive at a difficult situation, actually, you guys didn't, you guys, because of timing, didn't you get your benches and put them in an actual truck and have someone drive them out? Yeah,
Josh Fry 22:10
physically drove across. We actually had three projects that were backing up and stacking up between, and so in order to get those done, it was physically driven over. Yeah,
Mark D. Williams 22:19
did you then fly that? Was it a rental? Did you fly that person home, or did they drive the truck back?
Josh Fry 22:23
I'm actually not positive. I'd have to double check. I think that they ended up driving back. It was a rental. Okay, been a one-way rental, though. I
Mark D. Williams 22:32
mean, it doesn't matter. It's really impressive when I heard, when I was talking to Mike, my PM, and I was like, where are these benches? And to be fair, like, part of it again was the timing of my decision, but it was just like I kept.. I'm like, "Oh my word, like, where are these benches? And then Mike's like, "No, they're literally putting them in a truck and driving them there, so they can get in there Saturday, so that they can install them Monday. And I was like, "That is.. that's impressive.
Josh Fry 22:56
Sometimes you know, timelines get tight, and you just got to do what you got to do, and cost a little extra money and time to get the guys to do it, but you were among good company, getting a couple other high-profile clients their saunas on time, and driving it was what had to be done.
Mark D. Williams 23:11
Yeah, thanks for coming on the podcast, appreciate it. We'll have stuff in the show notes, and if you haven't checked out Symmetry Saunas before, I'd highly recommend it. We'll talk to you soon. Thanks for tuning in the Curious Builder Podcast. Thanks for tuning in to Curious Builder Podcast. If you liked this episode, do us a favor, share it with three other business owners. The best way that we can spread what we're doing is by word of mouth, and with your help, we can continue to help other Curious Builders expand their business. Please share it with your friends, like and review online, and thanks again for tuning in.
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