Episode #118 | Losers are Winners | The Hardest Thing Sunny Bowman Had to Delegate Was Herself
At some point, being the person who can solve every problem stops being a superpower and starts becoming a business problem. Sunny Bowman shares how rapid growth at Dakota County Lumber forced her to rethink leadership, delegate responsibility, and stop chasing the dopamine hit of being the person with all the answers. Mark and Sunny get into visionary leadership, building a team that can operate without you, and figuring out whether you're growing your business for the right reasons. Spoiler alert: doing everyone's job isn't a growth strategy.
About The Curious Builder
The host of the Curious Builder Posdast is Mark D. Williams, the founder of Mark D. Williams Custom Homes Inc. They are an award-winning Twin Cities-based home builder, creating quality custom homes and remodels — one-of-a-kind dream homes of all styles and scopes. Whether you’re looking to reimagine your current space or start fresh with a new construction, we build homes that reflect how you live your everyday life.
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Mark D. Williams 00:00
This episode is brought to you by All Inc. For the last decade plus, we've been working with All Inc for all of our appliance needs. If you're local here in Minnesota, please check out allinc.com and tell them the Curious Builder sent you.
Sunny Bowman 00:15
It's been a big year, and I think what I've learned this year is that under pressure, it's really easy to go back to old habits, right? So I have wanted to like get involved and solve the problem, get in the trenches and lead, you know, shoulder to shoulder with people instead of leading from the front.
Mark D. Williams 00:42
Welcome to the podcast. I am Mark Williams, your host. Back again. You can't get rid of me yet. I am joined in studio with Sunny Bowman from Dakota County Lumber. Hey, Sunny.
Sunny Bowman 00:51
Hey, how are you?
Mark D. Williams 00:51
I'm great. For those that haven't listened to the Monday story, episode 108, all time hot list. I mean, this that 108 is a banger, it's you listen to that thing. Oh yeah, running, working out, driving to work, you will learn a thing or two.
Sunny Bowman 01:05
Don't forget the bonus episode about tariffs when we were going through all of that. Do you remember doing that? Yeah, it was pretty wild. We stayed on and talked about the exciting world of lumber tariffs.
Mark D. Williams 01:14
As we do on Thursdays, we talk about things that we do that don't always work out in the moment. Losers are winners, but usually the story of the scar that we learn so much more from our losses.
Sunny Bowman 01:27
Yeah.
Mark D. Williams 01:27
What are some entrepreneurship losses, or what's what's on your mind that you think back in your career at the time that was a pretty painful thing that I did or discovered or business transaction, but it led to something that you think about today that informs either how you act today or it's a success now and because you've made it successful.
Sunny Bowman 01:48
Well, I am I am sad for this conversation, as the kids say, because I like when your scheduler reached out and was like, "Hey, would you come on the losers or winners?" I was like, "That's thanks, Mark." It's such a loser. I'm like, wow, top of the list to ask. But then I dug through because I hadn't listened to them. I don't know how I missed them, but I hadn't listened to. Got like
Mark D. Williams 02:09
100 of them.
Sunny Bowman 02:09
I just this whole moment missed me. So I went back and listened to some of them. I was like, oh, I love this because I Sadie does our marketing at Dakota County Lumber, and like she and I have had whole conversations about like should we just do a video series about all the ways that I failed? I'll go first. Like hold my coffee. It's like the
Mark D. Williams 02:26
ingredients to like a good beef stroganoff.
Sunny Bowman 02:28
Yes, absolutely. Minnesota, yes. Minnesota stroganoff, some hot dish. Yeah. So I'm I'm super excited to talk about it. I think so. My I don't know if it's a hot take or not, and I don't know if it's an original thought, but it's very original to me. I have been learning over the last couple years that servant leadership is a trap.
Mark D. Williams 02:47
Tell me more.
Sunny Bowman 02:48
Yeah, because that's
Mark D. Williams 02:48
like a very popular thing in corporate America. I don't hear it a lot about in the small companies that you know that I'm usually a part of. But you're right. It's all over LinkedIn, right? Servant leadership. This. Tell me more.
Sunny Bowman 02:58
Okay. So I, as you know, we we run on traction on EOS, and that was a post COVID evolution for Dakota County Lumber. We grew just exponentially during COVID. I think we grew 40. Well, we grew 40%, 2020. We grew a bunch in 2021, like a whole lot. And then all of a sudden, I'm in charge of this small family-owned business that is much larger than the small family-owned business that I was in charge of two years ago, and I'm I was still you know, I don't know how old I was at that point, early 30s, right? And I reached out to an EOS implementer. Like I read the book Traction, was like, oh my gosh, this sounds great. Like let's press the easy button on running the business. And I think we've talked about that a little bit. Like it's so great to have a communication structure and a system for running the business. But one of the things that Traction requires, or part of their structure, is they have a visionary leader right at the top, and then they have an integrator. That's the person that like gets stuff done, right? Like does the stuff. Yeah, the the GSD energy comes from the the integrator, and I knew that I needed to be setting like long term strategic vision for the company. It took me a little a little time to really buy into the thought, like because I hate the term visionary, or I hated the term visionary. I'm getting more used to it, but took some time to to buy into the idea that I should be doing high level strategy for the business. It is definitely what's most in my skill set, but I thrive on getting stuff done. Like I love that it hits this like
Mark D. Williams 04:30
dopamine.
Sunny Bowman 04:31
Yes, there's so much dopamine involved in like being the person that has the answer, being the person that is able to solve everybody's problem, being the get shit donener at you know and and was and for my entire career up into that point, that that was my brand of leadership and it was the only leadership style that I knew. And so enter EOS and enter all of a sudden you know we have this long term strategic vision which is so great right you know we're saying. This is what we're going to do, and this is how we're going to do it, and there's accountability and all of that kind of stuff. And we just, you know, we had put everything out in front of people, and then all of a sudden, now I it was like put your money where your mouth is, first of all, and we have to follow the plan. And so the plan is like, let's hire a leadership team. Let's hire like make sure you put the right integrator in place, and then you know we need a head of sales, and we need a head of finance, and we need a you know like head of our install division and whatever. And not only was it super expensive, but it was also terrifying to me because instead of being the person that did all of those things? I was the person that was responsible for the people that did all of those things, or the person that was responsible for inspiring and setting the vision for the people that did all of those things, but not necessarily being the one to get it done. I actually remember, and since it's a builder podcast, like this will be context because we've all been there. I remember being on a call with my executive coach a few years back outside the Las Vegas Convention Center at IBS at the Builder Show, AirPods Inn, just pacing back and forth, talking to my executive coach, and I was like, his name's Chris, and I was like, Chris, I have never until this moment right now understood people who are like, oh yeah, like I only wanted to grow the business to this size. Like I, we didn't want to get too big. Like we didn't want to, you know. Like this is where we're happy, and then we stopped. I never like that's beyond because I'm just go and expand and grow. And in that moment, pacing outside the builders show, I was like, "This is so scary." I am. I was about to make a big hire with a big salary attached to it, and hand over responsibility. Which you know, like to people listening, if you haven't been in this position, it might sound like, "Oh yeah, you just like handed off a bunch of your job duties, and to me it was like I was handing over responsibility for the success of my business in a way, and also and a bunch and a bunch of money, and I was handing that person my my dopamine hit, right? Like I was handing them the feedback that I would get for like, oh, Sunny's so great at running the business, and like staring down the barrel of that was terrifying. And I was like, I don't have to do any of this. I could just stop. We could just stay the size that we are. I could stop. So it it has been it's been a multi year journey to figure out, you know, not just like what I'm holding on to, because I think we talk about delegation, right? We talk. Sorry, this is a long monolog. This is great. I love it. Okay, great. We talk about delegation in terms of like, oh, you know, like not wanting to peel your fingers off of it, or you know, like there's any reason that any number of reasons that people don't delegate.
Sunny Bowman 07:57
But for me, realizing that my self worth was tied to doing those things, and that I wasn't wanting to delegate because literally it was like everything that I believed about myself as a leader was wrapped up in that task that I was doing was just a mind bender for me, and so it has been a lot of unlearning and like being okay with disappointing people and like having people think that I'm not working that hard, you know, like and like being okay with that and like you know not having to show up and try and you know justify where I am. I've been taking a lot of time in the summers with my kids, like a ton of time in the summers with my kids, and that has been, you know, like again, you can hear that and you can say like, "Oh, must be nice," right? But it has been a struggle to be like, "Well, what are people going to think? Are they going to think that I'm not working? Are they going to think that my eye is off the ball, that I don't care?" And like, really, it's created space and an opportunity for my leaders to step up, and there have been some false starts too. Sometimes it's created too much space, and it's just been, like I said, a multi-year journey. But that is, I would say, my biggest failure recently has been thinking that I was a visionary leader and realizing that I was not a visionary leader, I was doing the visioning, but not letting go of the.
Mark D. Williams 09:30
I mean, thanks for tuning in the Curious Bureau podcast. That is a wrap. That was amazing. I there's so many things that you said during that that I sort of resonated with and made a few notes here because usually my ADHD can't stop, but you're on such a roll, and I like where kind of the weave of that story. To me, if I was to summarize it, you've evolved.
Sunny Bowman 09:52
Yeah, the
Mark D. Williams 09:53
sunny you are today, the business you are today, and I've seen it. You've been in here before, you know, on episode 108, and I've obviously watched you. Is a you know a huge you know advocate for our community and you're involved so passionately you know on the forefront as a visionary leader, and so I've seen a lot of that evolution. Didn't know as much on the back end as that you just shared, but I think it's really cool because in some ways this is was really neat. Some people take and I'm thinking to myself, some people take decades to evolve, and I don't think there's a recipe. I mean, maybe I wasn't mature enough at that time, or maybe it just wasn't. It's hard to know. And some people evolve very quickly. And I'm curious, you know, you had mentioned because some people are uncomfortable, and I think you nailed it on the head. Some people don't want to change because they feel like they lose if it morphs too much into someone else's thing, then they feel like they can't relate to it. That might be one path. Some people are just they are unable. A lot of the energy that gets you to a certain place and the practices that you get there won't lead you to that next step. And I think that I think more people than not are there. I think I'm one of those people. I think the things that have led me to be successful are great, and and I personally have always had kind of a Dr. Jekyll and Hyde relationship with scale and growth because the for a long time my personal idea is like less is more, you know, boundaries or create freedom and all those things that I've enjoyed personally and I speak a lot about. So I started boot camp, Sonicamp, all these things. But it took me a while to realize, like, hey, dum dum! If you actually build a company that can work without you, you get more free time. You not free time is the wrong word. You get time to invest in the things that you're the best at.
Sunny Bowman 11:29
Yeah,
Mark D. Williams 11:29
and I think that is something that everyone you learned it a lot quicker than I did, and you're further along. And it seems like and where you're going with that. And so I think that's super cool.
Sunny Bowman 11:39
Yeah,
Mark D. Williams 11:39
to see that and for you to articulate it the way you did,
Sunny Bowman 11:41
yeah. Thank you. Yeah, I mean, it's it's been a journey, and I'm still learning it because I'll still bump up against stuff where I'm like, oh gosh, why am I hanging on to that? Or why? I mean, we've had a we've had a big year at Dakota County Lumber. We were just chatting in the in the lobby in the stairway a little bit about like I I bought a second location for our lumberyards, a whole nother lumber yard as part of the family. I've built a giant warehouse and headquarters building. We're renovating. I decided, like, hey, let's just throw an ERP transition and like change all of our software that we run our business off of on top of it. And then, by the way, you know, AI is about to be the downfall of humanity. Let's integrate some of that in. So, it's been a big year, and I think what I've learned this year is that under pressure, it's really easy to go back to old habits, right? So I have wanted to like get involved and solve the problem, get in the trenches and lead, you know, shoulder to shoulder with people instead of leading from the front. And I think that at past moments in my career, I've been able to jump back in and do the servant leadership thing, right? Like I think servant leadership is a is a beautiful thing. You have to have a servant's heart. Obviously, I have a heart to serve all of the people that I lead, and it is no longer the best thing for the business for me to get into the trenches with you. Like it's just not. Like I need to be out front. I need to have my head up. I need to be looking at the long term vision, and I need to hire people that can do the shoulder to shoulder thing. And then also, what I'm learning right now is with my leadership team, I need them to step out in front a little bit more and make that transition from shoulder to shoulder to front leader.
Mark D. Williams 13:29
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Sunny Bowman 15:07
yeah,
Mark D. Williams 15:07
and owners won't give it to them,
Sunny Bowman 15:09
yeah.
Mark D. Williams 15:09
And then there are some owners that don't want the spotlight. So it's every and there's no right or wrong. Like you know, I just had someone in here recently. I won't say who it is so she doesn't get embarrassed. But like, she's been dreading. She said the podcast is fine. I don't want to be on camera. I don't like, and so like some people are just uncomfortable. But as someone who wants people to sort of elevate themselves and just, however, almost like a coaching, like whatever I can do for you to have a better life, whether it's in business or whether it's personal or shocker, how about both? Like you know, and so we just want the concept. Yeah, wow, you could your whole person, a whole. So right now we have our fourth quarter book is Unreasonable Hospitality. Love it, and it's just it was my favorite book in 25. I bought 47 copies. Yes, and I've been mailing them out to people randomly. It's like my go to gift. Yep. And what the book has reminded me of is that it doesn't take hospitality is more about thought than it is about money. And I think of how we treat people kind of goes back to a big part of like our Mizuho's experiment was I wanted a home and I wanted an experience like Maya Angelou says people forget what you say but you never forget how you make them feel yeah and I think as owners of our companies like what would our people say about how we make them feel and and can we encourage them and I I think back to that. Like, what have I learned about vision? If you put out a big vision, actually, people are encouraged by it. I mean, the number of people that have come up to me specifically about Misahus and said, you know, this has been really inspiring for you to do something so different. And I didn't. That's not why I had the vision. That's not why I did it. But then I realized that other people can share your vision. I think that was an aha moment for me. It's like, oh wait a minute, this isn't. Yes, I'm open to sharing the vision with everyone, but I didn't realize how many other people were like were excited to be along for that vision. And I think what you're saying with your people, like you're doing a best job by creating this big old scary vision or whatever it might be. Yeah. And then your your vibe attracts your tribe. I can only imagine the amount of people that come to you and say, "I love what you're doing. Can I work for you?"
Sunny Bowman 17:02
Yeah, and and that has been a wonderful side effect. And also, not to turn it around on you here, but have you felt the pressure of being the person that put this vision out that like everybody is excited about too? You know, like there's that added layer of like, "Oh God, now this has to work.
Mark D. Williams 17:20
Now, this is the benefit of either being my brain or being a man. Is we're not nearly as thoughtful about other people. Yeah. Okay. You're like, doesn't work. It doesn't work. No. I mean, I jokingly say like it's also personality thing. Like I, I'm gonna do this whether some anyone comes with or not. Yeah. Speaking specifically about Mis. It's what I needed to get creative to be. I was burned out. The Curious Builder made me want to be stay an entrepreneur, but Misa, who's made me fall back in love with building, I was like ready to be like done. I was like just so over it, and so between the Kiris Builder and Misa, who's like I'm ready for another 20 years, I'm like I'm I'm stoked again. But what I was going with is I did actually a whole an apology series on the podcast about a year ago. Well, I was sometimes your vision can be so big and so bright, and it's your little shiny tool that you forget about everything else. And I had a moment where my project manager Mike, basically, there I won't say against too many people know people, but someone said it was during the rough in stage, which is always the you know the kind of the low part of morale, just the hardest part before you get over the ski hump and ski down. And someone had just was grumbling about how there were Mike and my PM was just so calm. He's like, "Yeah, so and so is just really upset right now." And I was like, "Really?" Because I'm having the time of my life. Like this is the greatest thing ever. And um, and Mike then goes, "Actually, most people are, or pretty much everybody, and I was like, "What do you mean everybody?" And I was totally knife to the heart. I was like, "What? This is like I can't believe I'm getting paid. Like, this is amazing." Well, it was my mistake, and the mistake that I made. And I'll repeat the apology again to Kate and the whole whole team is because we didn't have a designer. You know, have you ever done this? You change your process. You would never change your process for a client, right? But you change the process for yourself because there was no client. Oh
Sunny Bowman 19:06
yeah, I just listened to your episode with Brad Levitt.
Mark D. Williams 19:08
Yeah,
Sunny Bowman 19:09
and like that was therapeutic for me because like he talks about the creative amnesia, and I was like, I'm totally right there with my headquarters build right now. Like, need to cut the builder slack. Like, it's all gonna turn out. But yeah, you you make because it's it's yours. You work in this industry. You just all of a sudden the expectations get a little out of whack, and or or you change the
Mark D. Williams 19:30
rules. So for me specifically, I unfairly in the OHO team is so talented, but I basically made Kate the project manager and the decision. She's a she's great designer. Yeah, she's not. She's not a GC. No, that's what I am. Yeah, and I mistakenly like when driving the ship. Hey, drive the ship. Have a great time. Enjoy it. And of course, everyone else on the ship is like, "Where's the captain?" Right. That was me in this analogy. And so, anyway, long story short, once I realized what I did, I took the helm back and and reclaimed the crew and got her. Going into port safely, but it was again we learned. Yeah, Portgate. She
Sunny Bowman 20:04
performs beautifully, though. She did, and the house is gorgeous.
Mark D. Williams 20:06
Well, and and you know, I didn't realize it on that side, but I mean, she was crumbling. I didn't know this. I heard this secondhand. Did she want to quit? She was just the pressure. Yeah, and you know, not wanting to disappoint because, like, you know, you get again, we want to set people up for success. That was they a didn't ask for it. B I just gave it to them. I mean, there's a lot of problems in my particular scenario. But again, going back to the big vision theory, I still think it's super important to have these big. And I was telling someone today, they said, "What have you learned so far from Misa?" And I said, "Well, for me specifically, it's what everyone defines success differently. Sometimes it's financial. Sometimes there's a lot of other things. I won't go into it on this podcast. There's a lot more to it. But I said, I if you get 80% of something, it's better than 100% of nothing. And if I'm the way that Misa Huz has made me excited about being a builder again, allows me to prolong my career by a decade or more. And if I didn't do it, would I even still be here five years from now? I don't know. And if that's the case, then no matter what happens, Misahus was a dramatic success. Yeah. And so that was how I've sort of been internally playing some of these things. But you don't know it till after it happens. I mean, that idea was two years ago, and here we are talking about
Sunny Bowman 21:17
it. Right. Oh my gosh, I love it. Anyway,
Mark D. Williams 21:20
what I know you guys are big book readers in your company. What book are you guys reading right now?
Sunny Bowman 21:25
Oh gosh, I'm not making everybody read anything right now because it's October.
Mark D. Williams 21:30
Yep.
Sunny Bowman 21:31
We have some ideas on deck for for November, December, but I don't know. I don't have a I don't have one keyed up. What are you guys doing?
Mark D. Williams 21:40
Well, we did four this year. We did Buy Back Your Time was Q1. Q2 was Psychology of Money, incredible book. You haven't read
Sunny Bowman 21:48
it,
Mark D. Williams 21:48
okay? I'm gonna give you a copy. Okay, it's so good. And then three was Relentless, and now Unreasonable Hospitality.
Sunny Bowman 21:53
Relentless. You, I read that after you mentioned it. Yeah, what do you think? I okay. So love, love, love it as a former like high level athlete like the oh the drop oh yeah like I mean like that's and I will still go back into my Audible and like go and turn it on when I need a little pump up it's like that or gangster rap right like when it's like oh man entrepreneurship's hard like blah blah blah but like those are the moments those are the moments that separate you as an entrepreneur from everybody else. I mean, I mentioned that we've been doing a lot this year, and it gets hard. I I told a story about like, oh my gosh, I could just not do any of this. I could quit, and like it's those moments for sure where other people would quit, right? Like, and if it was easy, everybody would do it. And since it's not easy, everybody doesn't. So
Mark D. Williams 22:41
let me ask you this question. Just comes to me right now. How do you know when you should quit? Because just because you don't quit doesn't mean you shouldn't quit.
Sunny Bowman 22:48
Yeah, I mean, okay. So my executive coach actually on that phone call outside the builder show asked you're pacing back and yeah, asking. I was like, I I don't have to do any of this, and he's like, okay, well let's talk about that. Great. Okay, let's talk about that. And he's like, you know, would would you be happy if you know stayed at this size? I'm like, I have a hell of a lot more money. Like, you know, like I don't know. Like, and so we, you know, we went through like, would you be happy? Why do you want to grow? Like, what is it? Is it is it growth for growth's sake, or is it growth because you want to do something? And and for us at Dakota County Lumber, and for and for me specifically, like I have a philanthropic goal that's tied to our growth goal, our in our 10 year plan. Like I want to, you know, be able to give X amount of dollars to charity, and that's that is the, you know, honestly the driving force. It's not an overall revenue goal. That's that's one goal, and then the second goal is we want to be the go-to lumber yard for small builders in our market because we feel like if you're a smaller and mid-sized builder, like you deserve to work with somebody that's gonna elevate you and like help your business and be a partner. And you know, like it's not it's not about people buying from us. It's about you know sort of elevating the builder community essentially. And so the fact that those were the reasons, those two things were the reasons behind the growth goal. It was like I wouldn't be happy if I quit at this point, and those things still fired me up in my heart. And so we're like, all right, we're going. We're like gonna push through. We're not gonna stop now because you know. But I mean, I think there are plenty of great reasons for staying small, or for you know knowing thyself, and like you know creating the life that you want, and all of that kind of you know like there's there are a lot of things that factor into whether you grow your business or not. And and for me, I just yeah, still growth is still the goal.
Mark D. Williams 24:36
Yeah, I mean, I love it. I mean, I ask myself that question all the time, and you know, it's been a I'm not going to shame the millennials, but like you know, there's this really trendy thing. Like, what's your why? You know, and I think it's I think it's interesting to know that. I'd be curious. Maybe I'll go first to give you a chance to think about yours. I don't actually know mine, and I've often thought about like what drives you. Yeah, like why are you a driver? Why are you visionary? What. I mean, I'm sure it's your life is your temperament. There's a lot of answers to this question, but like at the end of the day, when I've thought about all of this, like why did why it's crazy? Like why are you signing up for 100 mile trail race, or why do you feel why do you need to do this or do that? Most of the time, I actually don't know the answer, and I think that's okay. I
Sunny Bowman 25:18
think you can also just enjoy the journey. Yeah, and what what would you say is your why? I mean, you mentioned like obviously your goals, like your why, but you have an inner drive as well. Have you ever thought about like why do you have a drive? Oh man, I've thought about it probably way too much. Um, yeah, and and I think you know like sometimes like sometimes it's it's nature and sometimes it's nurture, right? And so like I definitely I was raised by a first generation entrepreneur pulling yourself up by the bootstraps kind of guy, right? That like sees in high school and then grew a successful business. So like that, I think has shaped me a lot. You know, like my my parents' influence and that sort of thing. But also like I I do like I'm deeply introspective and you know, have deep Christian faith. We've talked about this in the past as well, and I, I, you know, do believe that I was like created for a reason and for a purpose. And the best that I can come up with thus far to this point is that you know I've been I've been gifted with with resources and with leadership talent and that sort of thing. And if I can use everything I that I have to love people well, in whatever manifestation you know that is. Like right now, it's it's the it's running the lumberyard, and you know loving our employees well, and hopefully loving our customers well, and you know making our community a little bit better place for being in existence. Like I think that if I'm doing that and kind of showing God's love through that, you know that that feels like I'm on purpose. But I do think I'm I have a little bit of the attention. I don't know if it's attention deficit or if it's attention spiciness. And you know, like I I could picture myself doing a lot of different things. But I think that the core of it would still be to sort of love people well with what I have,
Mark D. Williams 27:03
I think that's a beautiful answer. I the answer that comes to me is often in the morning when I drop off. Well, every morning when I drop the kids off for school, we'll say a little prayer in the car before they go into school, and I often talk about being a little light. And what you're referring to is I I think sometimes a light, a vision. You know, there's a spiritual side of this, of course, as you mentioned. There's also an example. I mean, there's a number of ways to take this, but I think a light doesn't. It's a light is usually not a light. It just is what it is. A lot of people benefit from a light that the light is not aware of, and you know, I often encourage the kids to be an example in your school for things that are right, and please demonstrate the things that we value and the things that we love, and maybe it'll encourage somebody. And it's a beautiful thing as both a parent and as a human, as a businessman, all these things. When someone completely you're not aware of it will say, "Thank you for a word in season." Could I'm just I'm so I shouldn't be surprised, but I'm continually delighted about the ripple effect of our lives on other people. And most of the people we affect, we often have no idea who they are. I love
Sunny Bowman 28:11
to think about that.
Mark D. Williams 28:12
This conversation. I mean, 1000s of people will listen to this conversation across the United States. Most of them will not ever comment on what was shared, and that's okay. And being okay with that, and realizing like even if nobody listened to it, I've often said like I just enjoy the privilege of getting to you know to talk to people like yourself and hear what you have to say, and it encourages me. And so I don't know. I guess we got a little woo woo here, but I'm just I just love to think of this vision and this light and how it inspires other people to be the best version, and I I feel bad for people that would see you know that there's this funny thing I used to say you don't have to blow up my candle to make yours glow brighter, and as you face competition or perceive resentment or whatever it is, as we get older, we realize like that it just it doesn't affect that that those waves don't affect my boat, right? Or I shouldn't let them. They could if I allowed them to, and just realize you just be the light that you are, and that is a beautiful asset to this world. And so I, I don't know, I admire that in you and in how you carry yourself, and and these types of conversations I find very encouraging in a number of levels.
Sunny Bowman 29:15
Yeah, thank you. I love chatting about it too. I know the idea of like you never know how one of your actions is going to affect somebody else is going to affect somebody else. I mean, we have it. We've woven into our core values at the lumberyard, and and also then you know just as a Christian, I know like I will talk with people often who are like, oh, you know, like should I have devoted my life to ministry? Like, you know, is there purpose in the business world? And it's like, well, you know, say you're a nurse, right, and you're caring for somebody at end of life. That is, if that's not ministry, I don't know what it is. Or you know, say you're a teacher and you taught the person that became the nurse that cared for somebody at that. You know, like there, there is so much. There is purpose and meaning in so much of it. And you know, even if I'm wrong about all of this, right? Like, I think that I'll walk away from like. Knowing that I contributed to the good.
Mark D. Williams 30:02
Well, think of this: you supply the materials that makes people's homes.
Sunny Bowman 30:06
Yeah,
Mark D. Williams 30:07
and a home is a pretty powerful. I think I love to bring this up every once in a while when I remember how, and the ADHD allows me to have a coherent thought. Is that as home builders in the United States, as architects and designers, as valued trade partners that help us create these things, like home is one of the most important things that we will ever seek to have or be a part of, and we have a huge part of that. Our industry is massively important to the character and the lights that go out in this world, because you a home that you reside in, whether it's big or small, fancy or simple, doesn't matter. What happens in that space fundamentally will change the world, and I think that's worth talking about.
Sunny Bowman 30:46
Yeah, no, I love that. I'm with you.
Mark D. Williams 30:48
Well, respect the audience's time and years. Sorry, guys. No, you and I, you and I could talk for days. We'll have to do part 2789. Tariffs,
Sunny Bowman 30:58
part four. Tariffs, part four.
Mark D. Williams 31:00
Thanks for coming in.
Sunny Bowman 31:00
Yeah, thank you for having me.
Mark D. Williams 31:02
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