Q & A Episode 21 - Learning from Bid Losses and Crafting Year-End Strategies
Episode #21 | Q&A with Mark D. Williams | Learning from Bid Losses and Crafting Year-End Strategies
In this episode of The Curious Builder, Mark Williams talks about the ups and downs of losing a bid and how those experiences can actually help you improve. He shares a recent story where he missed out on a project and offers some great tips on handling rejection with class. Plus, he dives into year-end planning and setting goals, reminding us all to take a beat, reflect, and get ready for the new year.
Listen to the full episode:
About The Curious Builder
The host of the Curious Builder Posdast is Mark D. Williams, the founder of Mark D. WIlliams Custom Homes Inc. They are an award-winning Twin Cities-based home builder, creating quality custom homes and remodels — one-of-a-kind dream homes of all styles and scopes. Whether you’re looking to reimagine your current space or start fresh with a new construction, we build homes that reflect how you live your everyday life.
Support the Show:
-
Mark Williams [00:00:00]:
Losing a bid teaches you a lot. I think back at a lot of the different things that I've lost on in how it informs you. It's really important, you know, maybe sometimes you weren't as polished in your delivery or you didn't do enough groundwork on the front end so that you could really be knowledgeable about the questions. A lot of it is just your own confidence in making sure that you really know your numbers and what the client goal is and really being able to listen. Welcome to the Curious Builder Podcast. I'm Mark Williams, your host. Today's Thursday Q and A is the first one was how do you handle losing a bid? I feel like I have a lot of experience in this one, having just lost a bid last week. So I will just tell you a little bit about it and I guess how I, over the years have sort of figured out how, like, what do you do after you lose a bid? So in this particular case, a designer friend of ours had, that we've worked with in the past had referred us to a client, and it was in a great location.
Mark Williams [00:01:02]:
The budget was. It wasn't. The budget was fine. The scope of the project was actually smaller, but just given the timing, they were leaving out of the country for several months. It was kind of a perfect thing to get in, do a nice main floor remodel, and in a great part of town, really nice couple. So I met with them a few times, actually. In the very beginning, it was tough because they travel internationally a lot and my schedule was pretty busy with some travel as well. And so we ended up getting into a multiple bid situation where there was two other builders involved.
Mark Williams [00:01:32]:
And I think I was the last one to meet with them. Anyway, long story short, I think we are in the top two. And they ended up going with another firm, very good firm, you know, friends with the owner and, you know, good job to them. I sent that owner a text of just basically giving them a clap and saying, you know, well done, you deserve it kind of thing. But, you know, it stung. It was something. It was a job I really wanted. It was in a phenomenal location.
Mark Williams [00:01:54]:
We had done probably four other big projects on that street, actually. And it was also something we really needed at the time. So that was a. It was a kind of a bittersweet. Of course, you find out on a Friday, everything's on a Friday. And I was just kind of going through my mind over the weekend, what could I have done differently? You know, being the first in is really important. So I think, you know, in hindsight for me on this one, if I could somehow have made it work earlier on in the schedule, nobody got the design work upfront, but the earlier in and the way you're communicating is really important. I think that first impression, that first person you meet sort of sets the standard and it can, it can be a double edged sword, obviously, if the first person they meet isn't great and then they meet, you know, your company, like, obviously, and it makes you look really good.
Mark Williams [00:02:40]:
And so either way, I think being first in is, I think I prefer to be first in. I think they, I've heard someone in corporate say they want to be the first in or the last one in and you don't want to be the middle one. And so I don't think you get to choose. You just, you know, just more observations. So, you know, in the beginning when we did kind of a soft bid, they asked us what would it cost. Well, we hadn't done the design, we hadn't done really any work. It was just what do I think it's going to cost? And so I worked up a sworn construction statement the best I could with no design, not knowing, you know, obviously we knew what the scope was going to be. But you know, without actually hard betting it, it's not that easy.
Mark Williams [00:03:11]:
I mean, years of experience gets you pretty close. And I had gone pretty high because I know a lot of times our homeowners, especially in affluent areas, you know, they do not like change orders. Right now the economy is very much price based and people really, really have sharpened pencils. There's obviously been some downward pressure on pricing, at least on labor. You know, I know materials still seem to be up, but evidently it's us and meeting expectations of our clients. So anyway, the first, what I was very fortunate to do is I asked the client after I, she called me and said, you know, your bid is quite a bit higher than everybody else. She's like, we like you a lot. And I said, well, could I come in and meet with you and we can just work side by side.
Mark Williams [00:03:48]:
That's one of the things that I like to do so that I can walk them through exactly how I came to that price. So she said, yes, I met with her and just walked through her line by line and we probably cut, you know, $80,000 out of a, you know, estimated, I don't Even remember now, $350,000 remodel budget. And a lot of it was just high expectations. And she could see pretty quickly that I was erring on the side of it being high, which is fine. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I was just explaining to her this a cost plus contract. Anything you don't use goes down. And I had just framed up the question of saying, like, well, a lot of our clients don't, like, change, change orders.
Mark Williams [00:04:23]:
And if anything, getting a bunch of credits feels really good. And so the only way to do that, obviously, is to bid pretty strong. And so we brought it down to where she was comfortable. She said, now you're right in line with everybody else. You know, you're the only firm that's also working with an architect. The other one did interior or did their interior design, architecture design, all in house. And at the end of the day, we lost it in. Her comment was it was because that she felt that communication was going to be smoother if it was all in house.
Mark Williams [00:04:50]:
And I tried to get some clarification on that. I'd like to know more. I guess the point in bringing this up is even when you lose, I think it's important to understand how and why you lost. And sometimes there's. I'm okay with a homeowner saying, you know, we just felt like the other person was a better fit. That's okay. That's a. That's a reasonable expectation or a reasonable response.
Mark Williams [00:05:08]:
You know, sometimes there is no clear right or wrong. It's. This is who I feel comfortable with. Of course it hurts when, you know, you want to be the one they're comfortable with and they say no. And so, of course, you want to end it on a classy note and, you know, say thank you for the opportunity, appreciate, you know, the ability to meet with you. You know, you're a delightful couple. We'd love to do future work with you if we can, and leave it at that. One thing that another builder recently said, and this is actually when things go well, but actually I think it's appropriate even now, I think no one really likes telling people that they're not going with them.
Mark Williams [00:05:42]:
And there's probably that small window of time makes me. I'm thinking about this only right now is I should have asked for a referral. Do you know of anybody else that is looking to remodel? There's a strong sense of. I don't know if it's disappointment. I mean, nobody likes to disappoint people, so I guess it is disappointment. I bet if when you lose a job, you ask for a referral, especially if it's, you know, it's a coin flip. They could have gone either way. It'd be interesting to see if you could actually get referrals from people that you've lost jobs to.
Mark Williams [00:06:09]:
And I, and I have actually had that happen before where I've had clients say, you know what, we will recommend you to our families and friends. And I didn't say this, but then after they hang up the phone call, you're kind of like it. It seems hard to understand because in one sense they're not choosing you, but they're saying we'd really recommend you to our family and friends. Well, why wouldn't you recommend the company that you just went forward with? I don't know the answer to that. Maybe someone else can DM us. I think that'd be interesting to know. Or if that's just a human nature thing, we don't want people, we know that we work with a lot of good people. And I think that's true.
Mark Williams [00:06:43]:
Maybe this is the same way of like you know, choosing one electrician over another or one cabinet shop over another. It's not. You have a relationship with one and then you go forward with that one. And you know, if you work with multiple vendors, you know, there's, you'd like to have, you know, some reasons why. And hopefully it's not always about price. I mean, I think it's really important, especially if your value statement is not about price. Hopefully what you're choosing in your trade partner base is also not about price. I don't know, I guess I have to think about that.
Mark Williams [00:07:13]:
Just thinking out loud, if I was to go back and, and make certain decisions, most of the time it seems like it, it's communication, it's relationship, it's how you feel working with that team member. And a lot of it just is, you know, do you like working with them? Are they quality, do they show up? And so all the sort of intangibles, I mean pricing still has to be close. But I've picked many times. Oftentimes I picked the bid that is slightly higher than the lowest bid because I know what I'm going to get and I know the relationship. It's more important. And you know, if you're always picking the lowest price, you know, there is a value statement to that. And you know, at least the homes that I provide and the work we do is we're not a low cost provider. So if I'm aligning myself with only the people that do the most inexpensive work, at some point it's going to affect my brand.
Mark Williams [00:07:56]:
And so anyway, I've kind of gone off the question a little bit here, but I think it's important when you end it to end it well. And one of my favorite quotes is the art of making a point without making an enemy. And so I think, you know, sometimes I, I've, I've sent a thank you gift to people I've lost before, like a handwritten card, like thank you for the opportunity. And I think it's just a really classy gesture and we all, we all lose. I don't think any of us can get better without losing. I look back, oh man. Probably 2016 or 17, I designed a really big home and the client went with another very reputable builder and they built a beautiful home. And I still stay in touch with them.
Mark Williams [00:08:36]:
They're always following us on Instagram, all those types of things. But at the time that other builder had architect in house, they had a much fancier office. And I think it for them, they knew we could do the work. But they sort of wanted, in the beginning anyway, as I recall it, they wanted some free design work. And you know, I don't have architects in house. You know, I think it's important to have multiple relationships that you're cultivating. And so for me, it was important that I not have architecture in house because I don't want to have it all under one roof. But in this case, you know, it came back to bite me a little bit.
Mark Williams [00:09:16]:
This episode is brought to you by Hellmuth and Johnson, a top Minnesota law firm representing clients ranging from individuals to emerging startups and multinational Fortune 500 companies. Focusing on transactional law, litigation and appeals. Hellmuth and Johnson attorneys are leaders in their field. David Hellmuth and Chad Johnson joined forces 30 years ago in 1994 with the goal of creating a premier law firm capable of handling complex and challenging cases efficiently and effectively. Today, Hellmuth and Johnson rank among the top 15 largest law firms in Minnesota, with more than 70 Twin City lawyers serving clients in more than 30 legal practice areas. They offer a full suite of legal services to clients without sacrificing their original commitment to providing responsive and affordable legal representation. To learn more, head to our website thecuriousbuilderpodcast.com or to their website at www.hjlawfirm.com. so I know losing a bid teaches you a lot.
Mark Williams [00:10:10]:
I think back at a lot of the different things that I've lost on in how it informs you. It's really important. You know, maybe sometimes you weren't as polished in your delivery or you didn't do enough groundwork on the front end so that you could really be knowledgeable about the questions. A lot of it is just your own conf and making sure that you really know your numbers and what the client goal is and really being able to listen. So, anyway, I think we have so much to learn from how we lose jobs that it can inform, you know, what we do going forward. And hopefully those clients come back, they realize, like, wow, you know, and I think stay in touch with them. I think when you lose, doesn't. Doesn't really help you sometimes in the short term, you know, I've had jobs where they've gone to another builder, and then you hear later down the grapevine, they're like, man, we really should have gone with you after all.
Mark Williams [00:10:57]:
And it's like, it feels somewhat validating, but doesn't really, you know, put bread on the table at that point. It's kind of like a moral victory. And that doesn't help a whole lot other than, you know, people make choices all the time. And I think reflecting as a business, I don't always make the right choice. And so I think we all homeowners as well, can learn from their choices. And so I think just making sure that you're ending it in a very classy way and you're keeping communication and dialogue open. And I think that's really all you can do, because the opposite of that would be, you know, to be bitter or terse or cold or spiteful. I mean, none of those things are going to reflect, you know, good on your brand.
Mark Williams [00:11:32]:
It's obvious to say, you know, when you've had some time to cool down. But obviously losing, you know, any entrepreneur is likely to be competitive, and nobody likes to lose. Sometimes I wonder that if when we lose a project, it isn't for the best. And I think sometimes, you know, the sooner we identify our ideal client, the better it is for us as a company and for them as a client. I think the ones that sting the most is not the ones where you realize, like, hey, we're not a good fit. The ones that sting the most are the ones where you're like, actually, they're a great fit, and I really want to work for them, and then they choose someone else. Those ones hurt the most. We've had, actually.
Mark Williams [00:12:08]:
Oh, man, I just thought of another one I lost this summer. We had a long, you know, probably five, six year relationship with somebody, and, you know, they went with a different company, and not a lot of reason why that was probably the most painful one in my career, frankly. And that one is the hardest because the project and architect that I really wanted to work with and you know, they, they went somewhere else. And so it sometimes is really, you have to fight to make sure that you maintain who you are despite, you know, how you feel and understand that sometimes things do happen for a reason. And, you know, keep your chin up and keep going. Well, that's enough about losing. Let's talk about winning. The second part of the next question was how are you planning on doing your year end planning and how do you forecast for the next year? And so I don't really have a tried and true way on this.
Mark Williams [00:12:57]:
Just I can tell you what I'm gonna do this year and I've done it last couple years, so I find I've spoken a lot on the podcast about, you know, just getting out into nature, exercising, you know, doing some camping trips, whatever it is to sort of re energize your creativity. But I think in December this year, I think I did it last year too. I try really hard not to make any appointments in the month of December, you know, between just the holidays and team needs and really just trying not to overwhelm yourself. Otherwise the, the holidays don't get restful. So I think that for me is really going to help me be energized. Going into 25 and I have a lot of things going on right now that I'm really excited about. I think 25 is going to be a great year. I think 24 was a really, really down year.
Mark Williams [00:13:40]:
I've talked to a lot of companies that are very, very down. I mean, we're maybe 50% down. I'm really excited for kind of an, for an upturn and I feel like it's coming. I feel like there's a, still a strong demand for building. I know, like in our Minneapolis market, you know, I keep hearing stats like we're 100,000 homes short of what we need and we have a number of clients that are kind of sitting on the fence. I've got three pretty big projects that are just kind of sitting. I don't think they even know what they're waiting for. But you know, sure, shooting they're all going to go at the same time.
Mark Williams [00:14:07]:
And now I'm going to have to hire some people, which I guess is a problem I'd rather have than letting people go. That's never really that enjoyable. But for planning, I've got a couple days marked off, a couple half days, and then I actually Have a day and a half marked up. I used to do this. My dad was a builder, interviewed him last year. My dad's name is David and he loves it. As someone who built for 30 years, I love it because I just go to spend some time with my dad and he loves talking to business and so do I. And so probably 12, 13 years ago we went up to Duth, Minnesota and spent two days at this little Italian restaurant.
Mark Williams [00:14:41]:
Had a like paper table on it and we just had pens and we literally just wrote out business plans while we were having dinner and we stayed there for like three, four hours. I mean we had a ball and I should see if I still have that. I think I kept that. Anyway, we're going to go up there in the middle of December. My dad and I just take a day and a half off, turn off the phone, put the auto email responder on saying, you know, we're in a planning session and really just think about the business, business. It's something I don't do nearly enough. I know a lot of. I've mentioned this before, Caleb McDonald about a Toronto does a really good job of this.
Mark Williams [00:15:12]:
You know, he does it monthly where he kind of gets away and just spends a day, you know, at a favorite coffee shop, take a train in downtown and just work on his business. I think that's really smart. I keep sharing that story because I'm really inspired by it and it's something that I want to do. And so I'm going to just, you know, spend a day and a half thinking about writing down, you know, having kind of that forced time to write down your ideas, your business plan, your goals, you know, set some three year, four year, five year goals out there. It's kind of interesting because I have a clear path and a clear picture of I want the curious builder brand to be. And I probably have a less clear vision of what I want Mark Williams to be. And now I'd say the thought and time I've put into the Curious Builder has really helped me clarify my goals for Mark Williams Custom Homes. And so I'm really excited to sit down and have these two companies and kind of really think about what are the next couple of years look like.
Mark Williams [00:16:03]:
We're doing our first spec home next year in 12 years. It's been a long time and so actually more than that. Wow, 14 years, 15 years. It's been a long time since I've done a spec home and so I'm really, really excited working with a branding company. I won't Talk too much about it on this podcast, but probably the next 30 days I'll talk a little bit about it as we start to tease about it on social media and on our website. But I'm really, really energized to really design and build a home that's very on brand for who we are and how we've transformed as a company and, you know, really trying to attract a buyer with the philosophy of what we're going to be, how we're going to design this house and how we're going to build it. So I'm very energized of what that looks like. And so, plus, I just love making lists.
Mark Williams [00:16:45]:
It's fun. And so I think having, in this case, having my dad, who's been a business owner for, you know, multiple decades, up there to run some ideas by, and while he's been retired now for 25 years, usually retired before I started, I think it's sometimes helpful to have other entrepreneurs and get kind of their feedback, because I think sometimes what makes us really good is, you know, you get passionate about what you're doing and you get really excited. And I'm not saying you need people around you to pop your energy balloon, but. And not that my dad does that, but, you know, having somebody that helps ground you or says, hey, that that idea is getting pretty grandiose, or how are you going to pay for that? Or, you know, if you design a house that the market doesn't want, that's all well and good, but how are you going to sell? And so really, having someone that you can bounce ideas off that knows the business, and sometimes having people that know nothing about the business is helpful, too. I think it's sometimes important to take your plans of what you want to do as a company and run it by people that are entrepreneurs in totally different spaces. Because I've often contended that most businesses are very similar. There's probably a 70% likeness between all businesses, and it's the 30% that's kind of the difference maker. I mean, you have to hire, fire, market, sales, you know, all those things.
Mark Williams [00:18:00]:
Like any business, I don't care if you're selling shoes or computers or cameras, notebooks, socks, hats, you know, gym memberships, houses, you know, cars. I mean, they're all. You have to do a lot of the same things. And so I think that's what makes business podcasts really interesting, is that it's a lot. Even though we're talking about building a lot of these relationship things that we're discussing can apply broadly to any business. And so that's something that I really enjoy, you know, talking to any business owner about what they're doing. And, you know, one of the things that I need to be mindful of just having the Curious Builder podcast is that, you know, I have builders on the podcast, you know, and I think I do like diversity. And I think anybody that knows me or that's probably tuning this to show probably likes diversity too, because, you know, we don't interview just builders.
Mark Williams [00:18:43]:
You know, we've got builders, designers, architects, you know, commercial space, residential space, you know, website designers, you know, brand managers, lawyers. I mean, we're going to cover tons of different basis because I do feel like, well, for one, variety is the spice of life, but second, I think that the more variety you have, the more you can take these ideas and apply them, you know, to your business and hopefully that can be a differentiator for your business and what you want to do. So for everyone that's out there looking to sit down, I would encourage you to sit down for a day or two, turn off your phone, turn off your email, and really just, you know, write down what went well, what didn't go well, and what do you want to do for the next couple of years? Have a great rest of your week. And thanks for tuning in to the Curious Builder Podcast. Thanks for listening to the Curious Builder Podcast. If you like what you listen to, please give us a five star rating and write us a review. It really means a lot. It's a great way for us to just understand what you like about the podcast and what we can keep doing.
Mark Williams [00:19:40]:
So like and review and please share with your friends and family. Find out more@curiousbuilderpodcast.com.
