Q & A Episode 53 - Losers Are Winners Part 4: Boundaries, Burnout, & Big Decisions with Nathan Marsala

Aug 6

Episode #53 | Q&A with Mark D. Williams | Boundaries, Burnout, & Big Decisions with Nathan Marsala

Ever bitten off more than you could build? Nathan Marsala has. In this candid convo, Mark and Nathan unpack the cost of chasing the wrong projects, the lessons hidden in late-night site visits, and how Nathan’s dashboard (and daughter) helped him recalibrate. It’s one of those real, raw chats that hits hard—especially if you’re building a business and a family at the same time.

About The Curious Builder

The host of the Curious Builder Posdast is Mark D. Williams, the founder of Mark D. Williams Custom Homes Inc. They are an award-winning Twin Cities-based home builder, creating quality custom homes and remodels — one-of-a-kind dream homes of all styles and scopes. Whether you’re looking to reimagine your current space or start fresh with a new construction, we build homes that reflect how you live your everyday life.

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Nathan Marsala 00:00
At the end of day, we just found out and said, Hey, look, as much as we'd like to do this, the timing doesn't work for us. It's too large. It's too much growth for where we're at, our team size and our bandwidth at this point in time. There's another if it's a good situation, we would probably chase it harder.

Mark D. Williams 00:28
Welcome to peer square podcast. This is Mark Williams, your host today. I am joined with Nathan Marsala out of Salt Lake, Utah, from the bison group. What's up, buddy? Good to be here, Mark, good to see you again. You know, I just realized we have not had you on the podcast. Yeah, that's my bad. We've talked about it. So after this one, because usually I all these fail Thursday episodes have been with past guests. You and I have known each other since contractor coalition in Nashville, before any of this ever started. And so you and I been friends for a long time in the same builder 20 group. And so you and I go way back. We have shared a lots of fail stories between us. You and I talked to each other. We used to talk to each other like weekly, and now it seems like monthly. It's we are we're on different wavelengths. The two hour time changes is kind of a when I'm about done, you're like, driving home, you're calling me at like, dinner time. I'm like, Yeah, I'm not answering right now. I'm eating

Nathan Marsala 01:17
dinner. Well, I know where I stand in the friendship. Food over friends, that's where you're at.

Mark D. Williams 01:22
Food, family fellowship. Yeah, you're the third F. Well, let's talk. We got 20 minutes. We're on our series of, you know, losers or winners series. So basically, you take successful companies, and no one really gets to where they are without some good fail stories and just sharing some lessons learned. So you've been Are you on? Have you? Have you done two decades already? Are you 20 years? How long have you been building now? 20 years? Man, you've got a few. Let her rip. What are some ones that come to mind if someone was if your daughter asks you and says, Dad, Hey, is it always been so great, and you'd be like, Oh, honey, let me tell you. I've got a couple of rippers for you, of lessons learned, of things that your dad did that was really dumb in business, and I've learned from them or not learn from them? It doesn't really

Nathan Marsala 02:03
matter. I mean, there's obviously both, because I've made some mistakes more than once. Maybe I was just too dense to get it to first go around, and I needed to make this, you know, same mistake a second. I'm like, well, let's just take right now, for example, the background. I'm in my truck, sitting in front of a job site. I literally have guys that have said, I will get to you. I know we have an appointment. I have a call I'm supposed to be on right now. I also have other people covering other sites that we've been like, I'm triple booked this morning. I intended to take this from my office,

Mark D. Williams 02:34
and that's the life of a contractor, right?

Nathan Marsala 02:37
It is. But I made the mistake of, oh yeah, we can be there. Yep, we got that while I'm driving, we're in the moment. Instead of saying, let me get back to you on that. I just want to close the loop right away. But I'm not in a position to pull up my calendar and make sure that the time was clear first, and next thing you know, you're triple booked, and then you gotta, you know, make adjustments, and that inevitably means you're gonna let two of the three people down if you're triple booked. So, but you're the priority. So, you know, just right out of the gate, you know, this morning. Is it a total failure? No. But lesson, if you don't know the answer, 100% positive, check your calendar. Then get back to somebody. You know,

Mark D. Williams 03:23
you know what I've appreciated about because we've actually tried to schedule this a few times, and it just hasn't worked, and part of it is just booking our days. And my favorite quote last year was about, was boundaries create freedom. And I feel like you do you, and I've taught, chatted offline about this, you know, mostly about family life and priorities and things like that. And it kind of ebbs and flows through the seasons of life. One thing that's helped me that's helped me a ton in business and in my personal life, and I'd like to say I do it most of the time, very rarely do I not. And obviously, if you just double book because you didn't check your calendar, this doesn't apply, but it reminds me of it, which is Someone once told me, as a young man, honor your first commitment, and I can't tell you how helpful that has been for me. And there's been many times where I've, you know, I, for instance, I give it, you know, you commit to something, and then something cooler comes along and you'd really like to cancel the first thing, I have found it super liberating that that is not a temptation anymore. And I just go back to that family saying, honor your first commitment, and it kind of also makes you be a little bit more thoughtful about what you commit to. And I'm not saying we should always wait for something better to come along, but like, there I had an opportunity in Vegas a couple years ago. I had a contractor coalition Monday nights meet up with you. You were there, and one of our sponsors said, Hey, we're taking a bunch of people race car driving at this I'm like, Oh, my word. That's amazing. And it was really, really hard for me not to be tempted to cancel that, but I just went back to the family saying, and so I had, I had to honor my first commitment, and it was what it was, and they respected it. I think they were disappointed, because they're like, you're gonna go race car driving. And I'm like, I know that really stinks. I really wish you would do it again anyway. Sorry, that was a scheduling thing that that your story reminded

Nathan Marsala 05:06
me of No. I mean, that's just it. Sometimes you're saying no to really great things because you're honoring that first commitment. You are. You were the first commitment for the on my calendar, first before all the others. So yeah, others will wait and get rescheduled. Living the

Mark D. Williams 05:21
proof. What are, you know, what are some things you've done some commercial you do commercial work. You do high end residential. What are some we do? What are some things that you've that you've probably made a mistake and assumption where, hey, I'm going to go dabble in commercial? And like, Oh, that one bit me, it's not the same as residential or vice versa.

Nathan Marsala 05:38
Yeah, I'd say essentially, do operate in both sectors of the market, and like we actually have, you know, both types of product active at this point in time under construction with our team. It's, it's knowing, like you said, boundaries, right? Here's an example. This is because of a lessons learned. If you know your limits, of where you're, where you can operate, and where you can't you, it makes the nose easier. It doesn't mean you don't stretch, you don't grow, and you don't try to gain that requisite experience to take on a larger, more complex project. In the past, we've said yes to too many things. We've stretched our bandwidth way too far. You and I have had conversations about this where the hours per week and the days per week are endless for for myself and the team to keep up, because we over committed. We didn't pay attention to our backlog appropriately. We didn't forecast, but we didn't want to say no to a project. It was a it was a good project, and you We survived, but you can get over your skis with bandwidth, especially if it's a growth project where you're going to be pushing and growing some skill sets and some knowledge in areas. And knowing how to do that is another talent and skill that needs to be learned. You can we've done it with trades, and we've done it, you know, ourselves. One question we have for a trade, and I'll kind of circle this all the way back around. If it's a new trade to us, we're in trade we've worked with in the past. We know what their capabilities are. If we know the maximum size project they've ever done in dollars, scope, et cetera, we will help them go beyond that and grow, but within a specific margin. You know, if you've done a $200,000 millwork installation for finished carpentry, you're not going to get a half a million dollar project with us if the biggest you've done is is 200 because that's too big, right? I

Mark D. Williams 07:37
think that's really wise. I'm curious, do you ask? I've never thought to ask them. I mean, because a lot of times we're so, do you say so? Like, hey, we've used you on this 7000 Wolf Creek Ranch project. We got another one coming up. That's 15,000 or whatever you want to go into battle with the appropriate armament, right? Like, you're not going to use a pistol when you need an aircraft shooter. How are you vetting it? Is it verbal? Like you're just asking them, does that?

Nathan Marsala 08:01
Yeah. So when we have, like, on a commercial project, a lot of RFPs that come out to us on commercial projects, they want your qualification. You're asking for qualifications too. There might be an RFQ first, and then if you pass that, you get the RFP. But a lot of times the questions are, tell us about your previous project experience. What's the biggest project you've done today in square footage, in dollars, etc, because they're trying to make sure that you've done something similar in the past. And lot of commercial contractors will have a qualifications form for a new trade partner to come on and work with them. Like, hey, we want to know about you, your insurances, your eMod rate, your what type of work you've done, how big your contracts are, you know, are, are you sub tiering? A lot of this work out like they want to, know, because there's a lot at risk. So we've just kind of adopted that and just take it across the board with commercial as well as residential, because we have made the mistake where we didn't pay attention to that. We gave somebody a project that was too big. We've been in the same boat. We took on something is a bit more complex and complicated, and our bandwidth was a little low,

Mark D. Williams 09:06
and it was a

Nathan Marsala 09:08
lot more challenging than it ever needed to be. And there's that adage of baby steps, like, if you've only ever done a 4000 square foot home, don't go to a 12,000 square foot home. We've got a colleague, you and I've kind of talked about in the past, and we've had conversations with him where, you know, they were leveling up, they're getting to the next level. They were going bigger. And some of those steps were quite large steps, and we were trying to coach him on things that he needed to be aware of. So to circle this whole thing back and kind of close the loop on where I started, the mistake we made was I wasn't paying attention to backlog. We got our bandwidth was getting too low, and we were awarded a project that we had chased that was definitely it was a stretch goal for us. It was a stretch project we we got through it okay, but it costs a lot in physical health, mental health, I think. Our reputation was fine and intact, because a lot of it we dealt with behind the scenes to to get through. We did lose a couple trades just because, hey, it was a stressful job. And there were some guys like, hey, we still want to work on like that or or on projects like that anymore. Some of them have come back to work with us since. So knowing those boundaries of what an appropriate size project and scope is is very helpful. If you're going to take that project on that is a stretch project, a growth project, you need to make sure you've got extra bandwidth, because there's learning and growth that's going to happen. It's going to require more than your typical project, because it is a growth project, and you need an understanding going into it when you're already light on your bandwidth. And then you take on a growth project, you're going to get creamed, and it just it's going to suck, and you're either going to lose financially, reputationally, potentially, both. And where that comes into play is we recently were asked by a repeat client, one that we have an active commercial project to go do a new ground up building for them. And we were looking at the RFP, we're looking at our bandwidth, looking at the time. This would be a growth project for us. Total square footage isn't something we haven't done before, but the nature of the construction. We know all the parts, elements and pieces, but it's larger than we've ever done with all the site dev in that specific realm. And we've done 50,000 plus square foot projects. They were all class a tenant improvements, and they were higher end. But ground up is a little bit different. We've done ground up, but just not at that scale in size. So it was going to be a big growth project for it. We looked at it, we really, really thought hard and long about it, and we turned it down a week ago. We had to have a hard conversation. It's a repeat architect, it's a repeat client. We were the preferred contractor. They're still going to go talk and with a couple other GCS. They have relationships. It's a large regional bank, and at the end of the end of the day, we just bowed out and said, Hey, look, as much as we'd like to do this, the timing doesn't work for us. It's too large. It's too much growth for where we're at, our team size and our bandwidth. At this point in time, there's another if there's a different situation, we would probably chase it harder.

Mark D. Williams 12:16
Did you feel at peace after you made that decision?

Nathan Marsala 12:20
I did because I was stressing really hard ahead of time. We want to make clients happy, especially repeat client.

Mark D. Williams 12:36
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Nathan Marsala 14:33
It was the latter. Even speaking with the architect, he actually was that's one of the things that has allowed us to stand apart from the other contractors that they've worked with, because, like, I mean, they're they're a regional bank, they have more than one general contractor that they spread the work around. And wait, not all that's even in our market. It's one thing that has set us apart from others is how we communicate. Hey, we see something quick, early and often, we bring it up. I've learned this because I've. Sad on bad news. I stressed about bad news. I didn't want to deliver bad news or have a hard conversation. All I did is create greater mental anguish and anxiety in myself for a greater period of time. And one of two things happens. The first, you finally have the conversation. It's really not that bad, and you suffered mentally for months on end or two, the conversation is as bad as you thought, so you're gonna suffer as much as you thought. But it was only bad because you sat on the bad news. And they weren't mad about the bad news. They were mad that you sat on it. Sat on it exactly. So, you know, again, these are failures. These are things how you learn and you grow. You do that with change orders. You do those unforeseen conditions, and you do that with great opportunities that are handed to you and presented that you you mull it over, you do your due diligence, and as soon as you know that this is not the right fit, this is not going to work, you explain why that is you. You deliver that news. It sucks for them to hear. It sucks for you to say, because in our world, right? It's an eat what you kill world, we're always working ourselves out of a job. As a business owner, especially in a very project oriented industry, you always see the finish date on the projects that are in front of you. I've

Mark D. Williams 16:19
never thought about it in those terms, working yourself out of a job that is so true, and so especially from a cash flow standpoint, as it gets to the end, you know, wow, that is very interesting point of

Nathan Marsala 16:31
I know the day the music stops, I have a dashboard. I look at it every Friday, and I know the day that the music stops without new projects.

Mark D. Williams 16:39
Have you developed that dashboard because of a failure? So did you develop that because earlier on your career, you didn't have it? I feel like you've always been super sophisticated, number wise and analytically, I've always kind of felt like that was one of your strengths. But did that come from because it was a strength and you realized it early on? Or did you did it? Did it come to fruition because you were operating your business without a gas Gage, and then you ran out of gas. And then, now, to prevent that from ever happening again, you've got your dashboard.

Nathan Marsala 17:08
I mean, we ran out of gas. 2012 2013 we got really low. Weren't fully out of gas, but we got really low. And I don't know if the this gas gage on a dashboard. Came out of that. I remember going through a lot of data and trying to understand, okay, where are our projects coming from? You know, Were we too heavily weighted with one client or one architect? All the eggs in one basket, so to speak. Because we could see it coming. I could sense it. There was a sense like, Hmm, stops winding down. You know, this developer and this, this big client we've had for a number of years is he doesn't have a lot coming up, because we've literally done everything we could do on every property he owns at that point in time, which you could kind of see the writing on the wall. You know, needed to pivot, needed to find new relationships. I don't think it came out of a failure, necessarily. I think it came out of needing more peace of mind, because it's if you, if you see an hourglass in the sands are constantly draining, you kind of want to know, well, how much time is left in that hourglass so you can sleep at night. I think it kind of came out of there. But it I would also say it helps go back to that earlier conversation on Should I take on a new project? Is this project the right fit? Does the timing work? Is this a project we can hire staff? Do we have the capability to train the staff? Do we have the money to train the staff? To grow right? Is this a growth project or not? And growth project doesn't have to be growth in scope and dollars, it can be growth in growing your team, and then you're going to grow as a leader. I think the dashboard mostly helps us understand that if I say no to a project, it's okay because I still have time on the clock to go land a new project and to get into a new a new contract and extend that that time horizon on that backlog and that cash running out,

Mark D. Williams 19:05
and you don't have to share this if you don't want to, but it's something that's meant a lot to me, and I think it'd be helpful, and you can share whatever details you want or not. But was it about a year ago, you sent me a letter that your daughter wrote, and you and I had that hit me super hard. I mean, it hit you way harder than me, and it hit me hard. Do you want to share a little bit? You don't have to go into detail, but a little bit about that story and where you find yourself a year later, about setting boundaries, and I haven't checked in with you in a year, so some of this is coming in pretty live. But again, we don't have to talk about if you're not

Nathan Marsala 19:38
comfortable with it, yeah. I mean, I'd say I'm not. I feel like this month I'm in danger of repeating that letter, but it's under different circumstances, different expectations have been set. So that goes back to Yeah, did not. We took on too much in a growth standpoint. Right? And then looking at the gas Gage, and like these end dates, it didn't make sense to bring on and grow the team. We we looked at it, but we didn't like any of the candidates enough to really pull the trigger. So we had to make do with what we had it. You know, it cost a lot with with health and relationships at home. In short, the letter my daughter had written was taped to the door of the garage. I got home that night. It was about 10pm it was late. This had become a bit more normal, you know, I would if I wasn't on sites. I was at the office, and getting home late was like, I said it was normal. I wasn't seeing my family much. It was a very stressful period in time. Yeah, we'd said yes to too much at the end of the day. You know, my daughter just asked when she could see me again and have some time with her dad that was not on a holiday, because those were kind of the only times that she'd actually get to really spend time or see me. And it took home, really, really, really hard. And at the end, she'd like, basically put a fill in the blank, like, tell me the date and time that I get to spend time with you. Like, I need to get on your calendar. But calendar, because, you know, she didn't feel like she was a priority. There was a lot more in that letter that's been more sentimental, but the gist was, I don't see you anymore unless it's a holiday and I'm not like, I'm not waiting till Labor Day to see you. So, you know, when do we do this? That was a big it was a big wake up call that my career this business, had taken a a toll, not just on me, but on my family. I probably wasn't the man I needed to be like, even to the people around me on job sites, because I was probably more stressed that probably came through on interactions with people, trades and suppliers and staff, and it prompted a lot of change. If

Mark D. Williams 22:13
you're listening to the podcast for a while now, or even if this is your first episode, I talk about the contractor coalition summit all the time. Our next one is happening November 7 through November 10 in Chicago, and all the details can be found at the contractor, coalition summit.com You've got Brad Levitt, Nick schifr, Tyler, Grace, Morgan, Molitor and myself will all be there. We've got great content over three days. You've got builders from all over the country try to get it to about that 30 people number and we'll have sponsors as well that add a lot of value to each one of these dedicated days where you're talking about contracts and spreadsheets and margin and whether you're doing fixed bid or cost, plus your pre construction agreements. Ian, the list goes on and on and on. If you haven't been following it yet, you should the contractor coalition summit Instagram page is giving you a steady diet of the conversations that are being had, a lot of promo reels, a lot of the interviews that I've done personally at Omaha, which was my first contractor coalition, where I'm part of the leadership, interviewed all 36 people that attended, and we're going to be unveiling each one of their interviews over the next couple of months, so people that were not able to attend and would Like to can kind of get a better idea of the value that builders are getting. So if you're going to sign up and come to Chicago, you can type in the promo code, curious builder, and get $2,500 off. And we'll see you in Chicago

Nathan Marsala 23:33
this year. We're in a spot just we have things stacked up pushed a little differently. You have several projects coming across the finish line in the same three week window. So as all of us that have been in this industry know, that's kind of an all hands on deck. It's going to be a little bit more heavy workload at that point in time. But everybody knows it, right? We could see this coming from a mile away, and I could set expectations with my family, like, Hey guys, July is going to be a very, very busy month. I'm not going to be around a ton. I will make time for you when in here and where I can we put a special few dates on the calendar for evenings that, hey, those are families going to go do things we're not around. But by the way, this is the anticipated end date, culmination of I'm really, really occupied and gone, and then we're back to normal by second week of August. So knowing that these periods of time come and go in our industry, and it's probably true in most industries as well, I see it with my wife. She works in tech, they have big pushes at times where it demands a lot more, but when you can see and you can forecast, because you're looking at the schedules, not just a three week look ahead, but you're looking at your master schedules, how they're all stacking up across the board, amongst all your projects. Oh, you know what? This is going to be a heavy workload for everybody at this period of time. You can start planning ahead. You can make sure everybody's aware. Hey, this is probably not the best time to take a vacation, because I'm going to turn down any PTO requests. Yes. So plan around it. Let families know. I let my family know. We made plans, but it's not just giving them that just like you would a client. Hey, this is the emotional roller coaster you're going on when you're building a project. These are the things you can tell family and friends like, Hey, we're gonna have a really busy peak right here. But you know what? It's gonna get back to normal, and this is when we think it's gonna get back to normal. So you can think it's going to get back to normal. So you can set the expectation. I think people know what. There's an end date. It helps, right? Previously, it was kind of like going for infinity. So, and that's kind of what prompted that

Mark D. Williams 25:33
letter. I know I appreciate you sharing that. The reason I asked is I just think it's so needed in all industries. It's not just construction, entrepreneurship in general, people don't see all the hours at night, how it affects the family, and there's pros and cons, obviously, right? But I would suspect that the majority of people that listen to this podcast either own a business or are aware of it. And you don't have to be clear. You don't have to own a business to have issues with priority, setting and time boundaries. And I think the hardest part is how much of it's a habit versus a season of life. To your point, like, there's always seasons of life, right? And the other day, I did a little podcast with me and my daughter, and we were talking about the word business, and I was reminded of something my dad told me when I was a kid, and it was, you're either busy trying to get busy, or you're busy being busy, but you're busy, and it just, you know, it's hard, because if you're not really, really diligent on those boundaries, man, it's, it's it's tough, the habits creep in. And I think the hard part is people that are super passionate. I mean, you love what you do. You're so passionate for it, you're so talented. And I would argue, most entrepreneurs, they care a lot. They care for their clients, they care for their craft. So it's not hard to work. That's actually not the hard part. The hard part is not the work. The hard part is the boundary. And it's so hard to lay down that hammer on the forge and go home and set it down and guess what? I mean, that Forge is going to be there the next morning, that hammer is going to be there the next morning, and it's, you know, I think we need people in our lives that help us. Sometimes it's our friends, sometimes it's our spouse, sometimes it's our daughters or kids, which make it super emotional. I don't know why, probably because it comes from the eyes of a child, and so it hits us differently than when it comes from an adult and so, yeah, anyway, thank you for sharing. That's a I think it's a powerful story.

Nathan Marsala 27:26
Yeah, I mean, I'd say we've got probably the typical failures that every other GC has, right? You, You went too quick, and you, you didn't double check a submittal because you rubber stamped it because you were behind and it was wrong, and the architect either wraps your knuckles with it or didn't see it, and next, you know, it comes in, it's wrong. And now you own you own product. You didn't need to own you. You spent money. You didn't need to spend Ian, it was solvable because you just didn't double check something on a submittal. Like, I think we've all had those. I think we've all had that the typical like, hey, this isn't right. That wasn't done correctly, or the craftsmanship wasn't executed because, you know, guys weren't paying attention, or whatever it is. And you go and you redo it because you make it right, because that's who you are. I think those are the very common ones that everybody kind of realizes, Oh yeah, write the RFI, double check the submittal. The very basic things, I think, the bigger things that we forget sometimes, is, did you take on a project that was too big of a step, and you need to take a smaller baby step. Next time, did you look at your bandwidth and say yes to too much and you got over your skis? Are you setting proper boundaries? Are you having the difficult conversations that you need to have when you need to have them? I think those are the bigger ones that often get overlooked, because they're not the ones that come to front of mind, like you miscut the board and now you got to go buy another piece of walnut we had except the other day that we have walnut base on a commercial project. It came off his trailer onto the road because he didn't double check that his tie downs were proper. He didn't get it tied down all the way. He's buying a whole hell of a lot of walnut base. There's 1000 lineal feet. That's an expensive mistake, you know? He'll learn. Make sure all your tie downs are proper. Make sure you've got a properly secured load, you know. And, yeah, those are the common ones that I think people already know. It's the it's the more personal, it's the more business oriented ones that really can bite you hard if you're not careful, because you didn't see them, right, right?

Mark D. Williams 29:25
They always happen. We'll, we'll end it there, just because you and I could talk for five hours, and we likely will. Thanks for coming on our Thursday, Q, a and hopefully, yeah, we'll keep that. We'll keep this series rolling as long as people are willing to share their stories. I think it's super helpful. And then we'll have you back on here this fall. We'll get the whole bison story so people can this is their teaser for the man, the myth, the legend out of Salt Lake. Thanks for coming on, buddy. Thank you, Mark. We've had the podcast now for two and a half, almost three years now, and we have a consulting page, one to one consulting you can book my time for one. Hour. Perhaps you've heard a guest where you like one of the topics. Maybe you want an introduction to some of the guests that I've had on. Perhaps you want to talk about branding or marketing, or anything that we've covered on the podcast over the last two and a half years. You can book a time at curious builder podcast.com thanks for tuning in to curious builder podcast. If you like this episode, do us a favor. Share it with three other business owners, the best way that we can spread what we're doing is by word of mouth, and with your help, we can continue to help other curious builders expand their business. Please share it with your friends. Like and review online, and thanks again for tuning in.