Q & A Episode 57 - Losers Are Winners Part 6: The Cost of Hiring the Wrong Person with Adam Copenhaver

Sep 3

Episode #57 | Q&A with Mark D. Williams | The Cost of Hiring the Wrong Person with Adam Copenhaver

Hiring mistakes, financial setbacks, and communication misfires—yep, Adam’s got the receipts. In this candid conversation. Mark talks with Adam Copenhaver of CopeGrand Homes about hiring wins, hiring woes, and what happens when your culture isn’t strong enough to catch a bad fit. From cultural index tests to writing painful checks, Adam opens up about what it takes to build a resilient team—and how building with your twin brother might just be the ultimate hack.

About The Curious Builder

The host of the Curious Builder Posdast is Mark D. Williams, the founder of Mark D. Williams Custom Homes Inc. They are an award-winning Twin Cities-based home builder, creating quality custom homes and remodels — one-of-a-kind dream homes of all styles and scopes. Whether you’re looking to reimagine your current space or start fresh with a new construction, we build homes that reflect how you live your everyday life.

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Mark D. Williams 00:00
For those that have been listening to curious builder podcast, you know how much I love the contractor coalition Summit. It's been the single biggest force multiplier in my business over 21 years. We're excited to announce again that we're coming back to Chicago November 7 through the 10th. All the details can be found at the contractor coalition summit.com and under the promo code for a $2,500 discount, type in curious builder. We'll see in Chicago,

Adam Copenhaver 00:27
what I'll call the blue chippers out there, what I'll call the guys that have been doing it for so long, the best of the best. It doesn't mean just because they're the best, that they're going to fit well within your culture, within that location, on the school bus. Oftentimes, those guys gals might come with some of the most radical personalities, and that can be abrasive and detrimental to your team. Welcome

Mark D. Williams 00:57
to curious builder Podcast. I'm Mark Williams, your host today, I have ambushed Adam coming in from Hope grand homes in your Charleston, Charleston. Yep, Charleston. So we met at contractor coalition, but I've known of you guys, for you and your twin brother here for a couple years. And we're actually about in today's episode, or, sorry, today's zoom call was really supposed to be about, we're talking about launching a cures collective in Charleston next year, and we won't talk about that on live. That'll just have to be Stay tuned for the audience. But I was just mentioning to you that we're doing a series called losers are winners. And you were like, well, I've got a loser story for him. Like, hang on, we got to record this. So in the spirit of our losers are winners. Basically, if you're tuning in for the first time, that basically just interviewing owners across the country, I'm convinced that we all fail before we succeed. And so we have, all have tons of fail stories that, you know, we either learn from something or we're in the process of learning from it. So what are some that come to mind? Adam,

Adam Copenhaver 01:50
yeah, and definitely, Mark, you did ambush me. So this is, this is a hot take. This is gonna be fun. Ian, and a hot take and, and as I was starting to inquire about the boundaries out of the question just knowing your style, I think it's actually pretty loose. So the the failures, I think that I continue to make one that's kind of funny. What's my biggest one, the one that I continue to make, the sins that we continue to make as business owners, the decisions that continue to get in the way of things that you know are best practices, but are oftentimes difficult to either pull off because of your own resources or pull off because of limited resources. And particularly what came to mind was, was my team, our team at cope grand and I would say big win success is that team has transformed itself, the original OGS on the team to where they're at now, and continues with every single hire to improve. But that was the biggest failure for years, is, is how to how to attract, how to acquire, and how to maintain the absolute best talent. And I've come to realize too recently that, you know, I guess ever so recently, more and more every year, is that that that's my biggest opportunity, and also my biggest failure as a leader, is how to how to attract them, how to generate them, how to grow them, and how to retain them. And so I just want to celebrate that I've come a long way. Still have a have a long way to go, but I'm also much better at it than we ever have been. And so just it's tough to recognize. And I know most of us, I would imagine just my peers thinking about some of my peers right now, that they're probably shaking their head too, although it's not something that we talk about often enough. Well,

Mark D. Williams 03:33
I think, and I think the one thing to have some grace with yourself with is that, you know how much of, let's say, you know, there's a great quote. I was just talking about a culture Trump strategy, or culture eats strategy for breakfast. And if you have a strong culture, not that you don't need a strategy, but strong culture is more important than strategy. You can have the best strategy in the world, but if you have the wrong butts in the wrong seats, like your team's not going to perform. You know, if you have a football team and you got nothing but wide receivers, you're gonna get pushed off the line and no one's gonna throw the ball. You could have a lot of fast people, that's about it. And so, you know, thinking about this culture thing, you know, I've, I, you know, just thinking of your question, I agree. I have made, I've made a lot of good hires, but I think I made a lot of Lucky hires. I don't think I had any idea what I was doing. I think I just went with my gut and hired people and hope, hope for the best. And that worked out. Honestly, that's mostly worked out. I have had three people that I could think of that were poor fits, but I don't know if it was because of me or was it because of them, and I don't know if we'll ever know the answer. Just ended up not being a good fit. Then I heard a quote recently that a good friend of mine Drew beesan shared with that I'm just obsessed with He said, Be easy on people and hard on the problems. And I think too often, if I was to look backwards, I bet I was hard on people when things weren't going well and I should have been hard on the problem. And so if I was to be honest with myself on your question, the three people that I'm thinking about that weren't good fits, I just they probably just weren't. A good fit. That's not their fault. It's also not my fault. It's just it just is what it is. And the problem was it was sort of incompatible. And so really, what we should have been addressing is the issue rather than the person. And maybe the issue means that the person has to go bye, bye. And Brad Levitt always talks about the quick to hire. No, what does he say? Slow to hire and quick to fire. And I joke. I say I've always done the opposite. I'm quick to hire and slow to fire.

Adam Copenhaver 05:23
Yeah, I think that we do. I think that I can also say that too, which I think Jim Collins also said that as well. And it's all about stacking the right people on the bus. When I think about it, the way that we used to hire was, hey, how well did we get along with this person in the interview? In hindsight, that'd be that's like personal gratification, like you get to hire somebody that you really enjoy being around as that might be the litmus test for how well they might perform in a particular seat on your bus within your organization, it sounds like Mark, you got really lucky. It sounds like you've been really lucky to find those you know, maybe you're driving the bus on the right side of town picking up these folks, not for all of us, right?

Mark D. Williams 06:05
Well, I mean, I've made my share of mistakes. I have my new theory is I have actually made my last hire. I didn't make my teammate. I even though I'm a small team of just five, I've kind of purposed that I'll never make a hire again in my career that, you know, God willing, I want to build for 20 years. I'm gonna have my team do the hiring, because they're, I think, you know, and the other, my other joke is, like, if you don't like them, hey, you you hired them. And so, but, you know, the idea is, like, I think after your culture is pretty set and people kind of know what the vibe is, your team knows what to expect. And Brad Levitt shared a story, I think, at contractor coalition, when we were in Omaha, and he had just shared that he just got a notice on his phone that his team just hired someone. He goes, I don't even know we had a position available. I don't even know that we hired him. Like his team informed him, like, Hey, we've got a new person. Now, his operation is much bigger than mine, but I find that sort of amusing and also aspirational. Like, hey, the team recognized they needed, they looked at their backlog, they looked at their team's need, and the team sort of stepped up. I think that's pretty cool. Yeah, I

Adam Copenhaver 07:06
think it was pretty cool too. Not only using your resources, but I might go back to like stacking your odds. I really enjoyed the opportunity to stack our odds of success. And one of the newer things that I'm into is it's an assessment, it's a cultural index, I think, is what it's called. So a culture index, it's a Myers, Briggs type of spin off of, what are you inclined to be like in situations? What are you What are you interested in? What's your natural personality? What's your what's the personality that you think that you need to have at work? So I've been really diving into my own in self reflection, realizing, holy smokes, that is, you know, this thing is pretty darn accurate. And so is it 100% fail safe? No, does it have a record of 80 some 90% accuracy on predicting somebody's tendencies in a certain role or position, absolutely. And so what we're doing now is paying attention a lot more to those facets of how can we stack the odds to make sure this next hire? You know, because what I'll call the blue chippers out there, what I'll call the guys that have been doing it for so long, the best of the best. It doesn't mean just because they're the best, that they're going to fit well within your culture, within that location, on a school bus. Oftentimes, those guys gals might come with some of the most radical personalities, and that can be abrasive and detrimental to your team. So yeah, this whole this opportunity to learn that I might have been using the wrong hiring techniques of how well do we get along together, and how, much experience do you say you have as a litmus for What are you're the right person for the right seat on the bus? I mean, it's been going the wayside for years, but I'm just really enlightened these days that there is a whole science to it, of stacking the odds, and I'm excited about that possibility

Mark D. Williams 08:55
for us. Have you? Have you read Malcolm Gladwell book Blink? Yes,

Adam Copenhaver 08:59
yes. I have probably for a good refresher. But what was your takeaway?

Mark D. Williams 09:03
Well, my well, just thinking about what you just mentioned about stacking the odds, I think don't underestimate your gut either. I think a lot of times we have a take on something, and we're sort of taught as kids, or at least I was, I think most people were just like, don't judge a book by the outside cover, except we all judge a book by the outside cover, until I think about, like, literally, like Malcolm Gladwell book, like, has a good artist who drew on it. It's like, Yes, I know Malcolm Gladwell is a phenomenal author, but I'm like, Oh, this, this book art is also sort of interesting. And so, you know, like, I have little kids, like, there are certain books they won't read because the art on the front they're not interested in. Like, they're making a judgment. We are, we are incredible at making quick judgments. It's up to our processor to decide if that judgment was good or not. But I do think we have a lot of you know, obviously, in the world that we're in now with virtual communication, we miss out on a lot of body language, and we miss out on a lot of non verbals. Where I have a client situation right now, where that every time that I am with the client, he's virtual, and his wife is on. Was in person, and it's just the circumstance of his job. It's fine, and we'll work with it. It's It's not like I could tell him to change his job, but there is a lot that is missed, and so he, I don't know if he'd be able to name it, but he can sort of feel it. I sort of feel it. We don't have that same way to connect, you know, in the same because, you know, our blink, our read on people, is somewhat muted, at least with a camera and a video, you get some of it, but if it was just audio, there's or, like, an email. All of us have had texts and emails that come off very abrasive, and then you call them and you're like, it was did not sound nearly that abrasive. It's like when your wife says, Come home now first, if I said, Adam, come home now, versus if you read it, come home now, you're like, why is she yelling at me so and so anyway, the whole point of the reason I brought it up was interviewing people in that book. They had the deal where they had 12, I think they had 12 people to hire, and like, a group of six people spent an hour with those 12 people, and then another control group spent six seconds with those people. They all hired the same people

11:02
that book, I am definitely

Mark D. Williams 11:04
gonna have to Yeah. So anyway, I'm not saying you don't I like your I like your process. They'll stack

Adam Copenhaver 11:09
the odds like, yeah, stacking the odds and then also getting six people to make that decision for me. So players, this episode

Mark D. Williams 11:22
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Adam Copenhaver 12:50
yeah, for sure, but I can also relate that to the culture index that we had both taken as well. I've always known that we're on the same wavelength. We've got same personalities, we've got similar drive. We've got a lot of the same education that we've got a lot of the same passions too. So we're pretty darn close. The cultural index definitely said so too. So the things that we're inclined to do our personalities from that assessment was was revealing to say, hey, yeah, you're actually not that far off, and you you do work well together. So, you know, it's

Mark D. Williams 13:18
funny. Just on a side note, I don't think I told you this when we were at contracting coalition, I didn't know what the didn't know at the time, you were a twin. And so I think your brother came one of you guys to later, right? Yep, yep. It was so funny, because, like, I can tell the difference between the two of you just the way you carry yourself. And it just, you know, I actually had a few twins growing up. And so it's like, I don't know. I just one of my tennis partners. His brother had an uncle twin, and no one could tell him apart. And I'm like, they don't even look alike. I don't think, I mean, you look at your twin looks like you, but I feel like you're very different people anyway. Long story short, I'm sitting there, and I'm sure this has happened other people, and I'm looking at it, and I didn't actually meet you. I interviewed you yet that day, and then, like, two days later, I'm like, man, he definitely looks a little different. Like, I don't know, did he sleep different? Like, is he dressing different? Like, is he dressing different? Like, something was just different. I couldn't tell what it was. And then it threw me for a loop when I saw both of you sitting at two different tables. I was like, whoa. How has it taken me three days to figure out that there's two of you? Anyway, it was just

Adam Copenhaver 14:14
kind of a funny you were not in the matrix, right? Yeah. Wait, where's the black cat here? No, it is. It is actually really cool, though, to have an opportunity to work with a brother, but also twin brother. I usually like sharing with our clients that it's a blessing to be up to different places at once. And I feel like Ben, and I do operate in that where I mentioned we're on the same wave wavelength. Ian, we know what each other's not specifically thinking, but in this scenario, in this situation, I know how he would react, and he knows how I would react and what we would do about it. So we've got a very similar problem solving, opportunity finding mentality. So yeah, it does help us achieve more in the same amount of time.

Mark D. Williams 14:52
How you know, going back to your original kind of fail? I think we all fail with the hiring cycle. It kind of continues, goes around. What are some other how you've been building for.

Adam Copenhaver 15:00
For how long have you been building? Yeah, it's grand. We've been building for 10 years. 10

Mark D. Williams 15:03
years. What other Can you think of any other times that you sort of had a failure or a setback that you feel like now today, because of that failure, you actually are more successful because of it. For instance, I'll just give you a primer. Like for me, it was, you know, I in 2008 I had a home and figuring out a way to survive with this model home, and I had no money. It was super painful. But a lot of those lessons I still use today, and so I kind of that failure really sort of laid the groundwork with some mentality as well as some purpose and some drive. Maybe I would have had it. Maybe I won. I don't know. All you can do is like, Hey, that was the experience I had, and I was able to, you know, make some lemonade out of some, some serious lemons.

Adam Copenhaver 15:45
Yeah, I think that I never had. I'm an engineer. By training, some educations and engineering and and in engineering, you do not learn how to run a business and so and you don't learn how to become an effective communicator in business either. Everything's technical, everything's kind of shorthand. We get into the details, but it isn't, you know, sunshine and roses and how to carry on relationship, type of conversation. So I think that learning, just jumping into what we did with our business and custom homes, and we started off small, for sure. We started off with a few projects, and there were some great clients and and then you run into a rough patch at some point, some point sorry, because you either take on too much, or you didn't budget correctly for something, or you didn't follow the same process that gave you predictable and repeatable results the last time, or you've made a new hire and they want to run their own direction and do it this way and do it That way, I think we figured out really early on that you could not have a chance at operating successfully in this business without a system of procedures that the whole team would rally around and that that system and the procedures needs to grow along with the Business and adjust so that you can maximize your results. And so just again, this morning at our team breakfast, we're focusing constantly on training, updating our procedures. What are we talking about for systems with, you know, to really just generate predictable and repeatable results. If we can do that, we can mitigate the amount of chaos in our business. And you know, the the painful ones are the ones that you lost money on. Always you and I have shared stories about that previously, where, you know, it depends on what type of moral ethics you have. I think that the the more and higher moral ethics you have, the more checks you've probably written in this business. I don't like to admit it, but Ben and I've written a lot of checks, right? Or we haven't collected as much money, and does that hurt the business? And do you learn from that? Absolutely, would I have been able to do that without that experience? I think it would have been a lot

Mark D. Williams 17:49
tougher. It's so funny. I know the audience can't chime in, but right now, I thought of three examples of checks that I wrote, you know, to what you just said. You know, maybe because you're right. I mean, when it costs you something, when there's a scar, an injury, or, in this case, financial seems to be the financial whip, is the one that we remember the most, you know of a certain situation. It's funny. I think that's what's valuable about podcasts and sharing stories. Is your story just triggered three of mine. It sort of kind of brings back to focus that. I mean, you could almost go to say that the bigger, I mean, this could maybe be incorrect, but, like, the bigger check you write, the more you're not integrity or but you get the point, like, if you're willing to write a big check because you felt that was the right thing to do, you likely have a pretty high degree of integrity.

Adam Copenhaver 18:35
Yeah. And I also also realized through that process, that after writing some checks and an understanding that it might not have always been something that I caused myself in particular, it might have been something that one of my teammates caused, and I had no idea, but as the owner of the company, you've got to step up and do the right thing and be representative to your clients. And so we began talking about those checks that we were writing as the first time we need to write one for a new thing. It's an investment that check whatever that amount was, whether it's 10 grand, whether it was one or 25 it didn't matter. I'm always happy to make the investment the first time, if we couldn't foresee that it was coming. The second time, it's always a cost. It's always a cost, and there's a cost to be paid with all those outside of investment. So we made the most of it the first time, we talked about it, we communicated, we learned from it, we put a process and a system in place to mitigate the opportunity of it happening again. But yeah, the second time, that's when

Mark D. Williams 19:36
it really reminds that reminds me an old adage, when I I trusted someone to do something. And my I remember, my dad was a builder for a long time, told me, he said, first time it's on them, second time that's on you. And basically a shorter version of what you just said, of just like, you know, the first one was living experience. You didn't know what you didn't know now, you know, it's like sticking your hand in a rabid dog's mouth. Hey, I guess this little kid, you didn't know the dog. I'm gonna bite you, but you do it again. Yeah, kind of an idiot. That's funny. Oh, man, thanks for being such a willing loser as winner series member here. So you definitely got ambush. They don't have to do that from now on, when I schedule our meetings, I'm gonna make the first half hour just be a hot take on the podcast and just be like, just because, you know, anyway, we'll see how it goes. That would actually a whole nother series, like just, we'll call it ambush, ambush the podcast. But you also, owners can roll with those kinds of questions. So I appreciate your willingness. Yep,

20:31
no problem. Happy to put it

Mark D. Williams 20:33
all right. Well, if you're first tuning into the curious builder podcast for the first time, Thursdays is our losers, is winner series, along with some side interviews, we'll have Adam and his brother on at a future date. Big thanks to coprend homes and Adam Copenhagen and we'll or Copenhaver. We'll see you soon, buddy.

20:48
Great. Thanks. This

Mark D. Williams 20:53
episode is brought to you by Pella windows and doors. I've used Pella for 21 years as the exclusive window company on every one of my builds. When people ask me who I trust for windows and doors. It's Pella every time, their craftsmanship, their innovation, the top tier service, make them a no brainer for any custom home builder or designer who demand the best, whether you're designing something bold or building something with timeless elegance, Pella has you covered. They're also the only window company that has a lifetime warranty on all of their windows. I've gotten to know all their people at Pella corporate, as well as locally here at Pella Northland, I'm proud to call them our partners and our friends. Visit pella.com to learn more and connect with your local reps today. Also for more information, you can listen to episode one, where I interview their founders, as well as episode 109 where we talk about the innovation at Pella. Thanks for tuning in to curious builder podcast. If you liked this episode, do us a favor. Share it with three other business owners. The best way that we can spread what we're doing is by word of mouth, and with your help, we can continue to help other curious builders expand their business. Please share it with your friends. Like and review online, and thanks again for tuning in