Episode 84 - Losers are Winners: Karissa Dunham on Failure, Family, & Finding Your Rhythm
Episode #84 | Losers Are Winners | Failure, Family, & Finding Your Rhythm
In this Losers Are Winners episode, Karissa Dunham opens up about the messy middle of running a business, raising a blended family of seven kids, and learning that “balance” might just be a moving target with a bad attitude. She talks about failure, leadership, fitness, golf, and why making memories with family matters just as much as making the next deal happen. It is a fun, thoughtful reminder that success is not just about working harder, but about being present when it counts.
About The Curious Builder
The host of the Curious Builder Posdast is Mark D. Williams, the founder of Mark D. Williams Custom Homes Inc. They are an award-winning Twin Cities-based home builder, creating quality custom homes and remodels — one-of-a-kind dream homes of all styles and scopes. Whether you’re looking to reimagine your current space or start fresh with a new construction, we build homes that reflect how you live your everyday life.
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Karissa Dunham 00:04
I can find a happy medium where I'm doing something that's fulfilling myself, while I'm working, while I'm being a mom, while I'm doing everything else I'm taking time for me. I do work out a lot. I do the golf thing. I do a lot of things that are I'm taking a step back and saying, okay, hold on. I got to do some stuff for me first, so I can make sure I'm I'm where I need to be. So you can be where you need to be, too. So they definitely see that. They notice it. Welcome
Mark D. Williams 00:30
to cures. Brewer podcast, I'm Mark Williams, your host today, I have Chris at Dunham from Sun control, Minnesota. Welcome in studio.
Karissa Dunham 00:36
Carissa, thank you so much for having me. Yeah, so exciting to be here. Yeah, well,
Mark D. Williams 00:39
thanks for coming in a couple couple weeks ago, I was actually out at your operation, got to do a podcast with you. What spotlight, Minnesota, shining light. I'm in a shining light. Minnesota. Spotlight, shining light, light, light. We got light. And it was really cool to some. There's not that many podcasters in Minnesota, at least in the construction world, right? Lot in entrepreneurship. And so that's always fun to trade notes and go on each other's shows, but today I want to invite you on, because, like any entrepreneur, you can't really still be here if you haven't had a fair amount of failures in your career. So as we do on our loses, our winner series is really just talk about a few notable failures and looking back on your career, what are some things that you've learned from them and how they helped you elevate your business, your brand, and in the business owner you are today, for sure.
Karissa Dunham 01:24
Yes, I mean, there's been a lot of fails that have really brought me to where I am today. I mean, one of the main ones, obviously, is the work life balance. Obviously, everybody always talks about that one. But being a mom, a blended mom, in the commercial, residential builders world, and trying to figure out that balance, we have a blended family of seven kids, so putting in those 90 hour work weeks, and then trying to make the home life work too, and getting them to and from where they need to be, making sure they're getting their grades they need, getting the food they need, making sure there's food on the table, all the laundry, everything, all that good stuff done too. So yes, that's been a huge obstacle to overcome. It usually seems like when life is up, work is down, and kind of vice versa. So it's trying to find a normal balance. Because there's not really, there's not a balance.
Mark D. Williams 02:11
What I always kind of tell me, if you this resonates with you, I feel like balance is something that happens, like a moment in time, but we're always trying to seek it. I don't think you ever really are balanced. You think that's fair, absolutely.
Karissa Dunham 02:23
And the kids are susceptible to it all. They start to understand and they know, and they learn how we are and how what our work life is like. And they kind of grow from that too. So yes, how old are your children now? Two youngest are 16 and 17, and then the oldest is 28 so spread in between.
Mark D. Williams 02:41
Spread in between. Looking back now. What were some things that if you could do it and like every parent, like, you know, mine are nine, seven and five, and like we always learn, but what are some things that you would tell a younger entrepreneur, Carissa when you were first having kids, or, I guess, looking back, or what do you tell your peers, like as they balance it? Because it's a common question that we get asked a lot.
Karissa Dunham 03:02
I mean, especially these days. I mean, there's a lot of moms and dads that are out there trying to figure it out and make it work. I would for sure say, you know, take the time there are. There's only once with your kids lives, you know, make those times, make those moments happen. But you also have to put food on the table, and you have to make sure that everybody underneath you are being paid, and everything is flowing too. So make the moments count. Make those memories. There's there's always the things. You can buy them, but make sure you make time to make the memories.
Mark D. Williams 03:28
Do you think that I'm blanking on there's a better way to say this, but I'll blink. I'm blanking on the way to say it. But basically, like, it's probably the when you are present, be present that, obviously we would love to have more time, but none of us get more time, right? Yeah, but like the time that you are with your kids or your family members, like, make it make it count. Make it count. How would you, how did you handle that when you were a younger mom?
Karissa Dunham 03:54
I think the way I made it count is I would put the phone down. We would go on those trips. We'd take road trips. You know, those are some of the best memories, of whether we were going to Montana, whether we're going to North Dakota, just being able to get outside, do those things outside where you couldn't have your phone around. We're climbing up on top of the rocks and the big trees and doing all the things, and taking adventurous things and doing being really adventurous, getting out there and trying things, because that's the things that they remember. Hey, Mom, remember that one time we made a fort out in the woods, or we climbed up on top of that one tree and someone almost fell, and it's just, it's those little things that they remember, right?
Mark D. Williams 04:28
That's so funny you say that. So last night, my daughter was having a bit of a conflict with my wife and so, and she's still pretty young. We're like, great, this is our future. And so I remember just sitting in bed, snuggling with her, and I thought she didn't want to talk. And so I shared a story that that of my sister and I that were when we because we had a captain Montana, which is why I'm thinking of it, and we would drive out in highly illegal sorry, Mom and Dad, your house did here, but, you know, it was the topper on the truck. There'd be a big foam mattress. We'd have sleeping bags, we'd have gummy worms, we'd have Archie Comics. And we thought 1200 miles in the back of truck was like the best thing ever, and because we just got to do, you know, take naps, do whatever, but like it was the time that it's one of my foundational memories with my sister. And so, like, I know as parents, we're trying to have these special moments with our kids, but a lot of it too, is creating special moments for the children to bond together, too. When you and your husband were thinking about taking time away from work, is it only now, looking back, you sort of could realize, like, how special that was, or did you realize how intentional and needed it was, even in the moment?
Karissa Dunham 05:33
I think for me, it's always something that's been embedded in my in my head, from my parents, like they always made time for us, wasn't no matter what they did. So I've kind of always tried to make that time, whether it's even building a fort right in the living room with all the chairs and all that stuff, or just doing something where you're taking that extra time and making it count, whether we're eating in a book corner, doing something, making that one on one time, having mom dates, whatever it is. So yeah, trying to really make it count.
Mark D. Williams 05:58
I feel like it's you never hear the saying among men, but it feel like, especially with working moms, my wife is a physician, and so she talks about it a lot. But you know, mom guilt, it seems like mom guilt, as a business owner, is a lot stronger than dad guilt. Why do you think that is Do you agree with that?
Karissa Dunham 06:14
I think I do. I mean, I do, just because moms, back in the day were expected to be home and they were expected to raise their kids, and they were given that opportunity. Okay, you're going to stay home, you're going to take care of your kids, you're going to do this, you're going to do that. And now that more moms are working, more moms are taking on the role of caregiver, and you're going to be making money, and we're going to be making this happen and living a better life. But the kids actually see that as, Hey, Mom, can do it. We can do it too. So it's kind of one of those that you take a step back, and now that the kids are older, they're like, Mom, you've done everything. You've worked the 90 hour work weeks. You've worked, at some points, two jobs just to make us make that all star basketball team and do what they need to do. You know? They see the little things that you can do, especially when I was going through it being a single mom for a while, they're like, she's doing it. She's making it happen. So can I, you know, it's, it's really rewarding to see that kind of come full circle back.
Mark D. Williams 07:07
That is beautiful. I know you're a big golfer. You love golf. You had mentioned that when we were just a little bit, have your kids gotten into golf? It is that something that you were able to share together?
Karissa Dunham 07:18
The youngest one, they all do play a little bit. The youngest one's really kind of honed in on on it. Now he's really gotten addicted to it. He's trying out for the golf team this year. But they all have their own thing that they like to do. And I love that. For them, they like whether it's basketball, whether it's music, whatever it is, as long as they have something, I don't care what it is, find something that you love and do it. I'm going to be supportive of you, and let's, let's try to make it become a passion, but put it into what you're wanting to get into in life too.
Mark D. Williams 07:43
Were you able to, I mean, that gave you a lot of fulfillment and joy. Were you able to do that amidst these 90 hour work weeks running a business, being a single mom? Did you still able to find some time to golf?
Karissa Dunham 07:54
Absolutely, and actually, that's a great question. We now started. Now we're mixing golf with work. There's the thing that we're starting a Minneapolis chapter called ladies and called ladies executive golf society. Betsy Kelly, she's a really, really good golfer herself and I both have taken on the role. She's President, I'm Vice President, where it's more of like a drink wine and play nine for the ladies that don't know how to play, called hashtag legs. So you can come out, you can learn how to golf. It's going to be at TPC. Most of the events are going to be a TPC. You can learn how to golf. You can get lessons from a PGA professional. You can do a lot of networking, whether it's residential, commercial, whatever it is you want to do, getting you in touch with all the right people. And then on the side of that, then if you do know how to play golf, you can just go and play nine holes, have a couple drinks, lots of fun. But it's pulling the networking with your passion. So no matter what your passion is, try to pull that into your work, and it all kind of blends together.
Mark D. Williams 08:46
I love that. And the reason I asked the question that way is my kids are, obviously, I'm at the younger end right now with my little ones, and my wife and I both love exercise. I like probably competition more than my wife does. And so I wonder, I mean, I still to be clear, I do the sport for me. Yeah, but I wonder, do they see the work ethic? Do they see the model behavior? Now, for us, you know, we're up really early. In fact, I'm done working out before they get up, so like, I'm wondering if they even see it. I was curious. Like, as your kids have gotten older, work ethic wise, and maybe it's hard for them to delineate how much of a successful entrepreneur you were versus like athletics, but I find that a lot of a lot of people that are successful in both do both. Yes, I guess that's a poorly framed question of, have your kids ever sort of mentioned that they were able to see you still pursue your passion while balancing work? What were what were some comments about that
Karissa Dunham 09:38
they they like the fact that they know I can do something that I like for me, and then I can also work, and I can find a happy medium where I'm doing something that's fulfilling myself while I'm working, while I'm being a mom, while I'm doing everything else I'm taking time for me. So whether it's I do work out a lot I do, you know, do the golf thing. I do a lot of things that are I'm taking a step back and saying, okay, hold on. I gotta do some stuff for me first. So I. To make sure I'm I'm where I need to be. So you can be where you need to be too. So they definitely see that. They notice that they do it for themselves too, whether it's doing the girls doing yoga or the boys going to the gym, doing their stuff too. And then it's okay. Now it's time for school work. Now it's time to get their grind on. I know what they need to do too, to stay healthy, because there's a lot of health and fitness and wellness in everything that we do these days. When you see the people that are just kind of like a not ambitious and not wanting to do things, and thinking, hey, I'm just gonna invent something and be famous and just sit behind my computer and never do anything, you've got to find something that they have, that they're passionate about, to get out there
Mark D. Williams 10:34
and do that too, when you look back, you know, business wise, because that was really helpful and said we could do probably a whole podcast, just on balancing some of that. What were regarding, like, failures, like, what were some either regrets or things that you learned through the business or, I mean, if you want to go to this, you certainly can. But what were some things back you like, oh, man, I I wish I would have handled that differently, and now it's either something that you share with your kids or other business owners,
Karissa Dunham 11:01
I would say one of the biggest regrets, or the biggest things that I've kind of found as a hurdle is not multitasking as much as I do, because I'm a big multitasker, sometimes taking time, which I'm doing now, and being more intentional. A lot of times, I go to one event and go to the next, or I'll see people and I'll just kind of keep going forward instead of really honing in and getting to know someone intentionally. And because I ultimately do want to know how your day was. I want to know who your dog is. I want to know, you know, how that great trip to Tahiti went and everything about you, instead of just kind of going on the motion day after day after day and getting on the grind, I want to slow down and take the time. And that was one of the biggest I think, hurdles and failures that I've had is being too busy too much, and not slowing down enough to take time to really care and get to know people on a deeper level.
Mark D. Williams 11:58
This episode is brought to you by Pella, windows and doors. I've used Pella for 21 years as the exclusive window company on every one of my builds. When people ask me who I trust for windows and doors, it's Pella every time. Their craftsmanship, their innovation, the top tier service, make them a no brainer for any custom home builder or designer who demand the best, whether you're designing something bold or building something with timeless elegance, Pella has you covered. They're also the only window company that has a lifetime warranty on all of their windows. I've gotten to know all their people at Pella corporate, as well as locally. Here at Pella Northland, I'm proud to call them our partners and our friends. Visit pella.com to learn more and connect with your local reps today. Also for more information, you can listen to episode one, where I interview their founders, as well as episode 109 where we talk about the innovation at Pella. Do you find that you have to because you it seems like you're a bit of a serial entrepreneur, from what I could gather? Do you find that you have to say no to things in order to get that time? And how do you, how did you learn how to say no? And I I say that from my point of view, because I don't know if it's similar for you, but like, I find that's not easy to say or it's not hard to say yes to stuff. In fact, it's really saying yes to stuff is easy, but it's very difficult for me to say no to things. And I know that if I'm going to like time blocking, like, I found a lot of value in time blocking my schedule because it allows for open space, because otherwise, my skin, it still does, even though I try, it fills anyway it does. And like, nothing gives you more happiness than, like, a meeting gets canceled. Like, yes, I just reclaim back an hour of my time. Yeah, I can
Karissa Dunham 13:30
take my time a little bit more, getting to the next spot and stopping. And, you know, just it's
Mark D. Williams 13:34
almost like you almost become to depend on those free times. Because otherwise it's like, well, what am I going to actually get this focus. Time done again, looking back, how have you navigated? When did you first learn that you need to start saying no? And how have you practiced that?
Karissa Dunham 13:48
I think saying no, especially in in my world and residential and commercial, I mean, obviously having Randy mark and Todd being great leaders, that they are teaching you that you have to kind of stay in your lane, but also learning that it is okay to say no when you're meeting with someone and they ask you for something, or they say, Hey, can I have 15 minutes of your day tomorrow? Or can I have a half hour of your day tomorrow? And you know, your day's completely booked, you cannot have that tomorrow. But here's, here's the time that you can have it, you know, just trying to kind of delegate the time that they can have it and keep them on schedule. Like, I know it's going to go down a rabbit hole with you. So here's a block of time that you can have, but I can only go from x to x because my calendar is completely booked. And people don't understand, when you have a busy schedule, like we do, that 15 minutes or a half hour or an hour of your time is a lot of time, and they don't understand, hey, my calendar is booked out two or three weeks or two months out. I'm sorry. That's the way it is. I can't give you two hours tomorrow. That's what it is. You just have to say, No,
Mark D. Williams 14:47
yeah, yeah. How when you look at from a business or operation standpoint, you know, whether it's business partners, or do you have any business partners in your business? Yeah, yeah. Walk us through a little bit of like I have found. Like, early on in my career, my dad, who was a business owner, often told us that, you know, my sister and I that, you know, having business partners can be difficult because you have another person to to run it by. Ian, I always had that mentality for a long time, as I've gotten older now, I'm my 22nd year of building, and I have a couple other businesses where I do have partners, I have found it to be actually very liberating to have business partners, because I sort of maybe it's because when you're sort of a solo procure and you're kind of alone all the time, I mean, you're not really alone because you're surrounded by your clients and all the people you employ, but having other business partners, I found, actually, to be really invigorating. How have you balanced having business partners and versus, you know, maybe wanting to do it all by yourself?
Karissa Dunham 15:39
Yeah, I mean having Randy mark and Todd around, having to have them bounce ideas off, saying, hey, you know, here's the situation I'm in. How would you deal with it? You're, you know, just knowing where all they come from, and what they're, what they think of everything you know. Here it is, you know, let's, let's lay this out. Let's see how we do this. Going to mark and saying, hey, you know, here's x, y and z. How, what do you think of this? How would you lay this out? And then, you know, going to Todd, who's completely on a different level, and saying, Okay, now I know how he thinks. You know what? What is your game plan with this? Just trying to get different ideas, trying to think outside the box, and kind of keep moving that business side forward. So, yeah, it's a lot of fun. I think it's great. Having different people around you with different trends or different thoughts, gets me out of the zone sometimes, because you get in a in a lane and you're like, Okay, I got to think outside the box. I need somebody else to help me figure this one out. So, yes, yeah,
Mark D. Williams 16:30
kind of going with the golf analogy here. I found that, is it safe to say that you, are you a better were you a better golfer when you were golfing in college or a better golfer today?
Karissa Dunham 16:40
Today, I don't care as much. When I was in college, it was holding I was better, probably I was better back then. Yes.
Mark D. Williams 16:46
Okay, so I just wanted to make sure that that was my assessment. But I want but so this is my question. How do you balance your passion and your joy for golf, knowing that, because I know a lot of professional athletes, that for whatever reason, hockey players, like they become a professional, and that's like, after they sort of burn out. That's like, they don't ever want to pick up skates again, because it's like, or there are people that were really elite, and then it takes, like, 10 or 20 years before they kind of come to terms with, like, like a runner, yeah, you know, I mean, if you're in your 40s, you know you're not going to be setting the world record at anything, usually, unless you go farther and start running 100 miles or doing something crazy. That just takes longevity. How have you been able to maintain your passion and still feel fulfilled in a sport that you know objectively you can, you likely can't be as good as you ever once was is that hard to balance?
Karissa Dunham 17:34
It is. It's a fine line. But in golf, you're always trying to get better, and you're always trying to do more and try more. And even at my age, I'm still in the simulator every day trying to get hit the ball farther, and doing all the exercises and all the stretching and all the things that you need to do to hit the ball farther, get better. So every day, whether it's a good shot or bad shot, at least at this point, I know I can laugh off a bad shot where before it's like, okay, I'm I'm now frustrated now at the game on. You get the spark in your eye, the competitiveness. It's like, come on, Donna, I know I can do better than this. I'm gonna put this one on the green. I'm not close. We're now. I'm just like, it's just a bad shot. I'm gonna let that one go. It's a different train of thought. But now I know I have it in me, so I know I can do it. It's just getting back to it. So it's
Mark D. Williams 18:13
working there. Do you think it's safe to say that mentally, you're stronger than you were in your 20s?
Karissa Dunham 18:17
Yeah? No question, yeah. You've lived through more, right? Yeah? How do
Mark D. Williams 18:21
you think? Sort of that mindset plays out in business.
Karissa Dunham 18:24
It plays out a lot because, you know, you've lived through more. It's, it's bringing more to the table. It's being more confident when you're out there, you're, you're bringing more, you're it's just getting up to the table and saying, hey, I can do this. You know, it's getting out there and saying, hey, I can speak in front of people. I can be in front of people. I know I can make things happen, just like you can on a golf course. You kind of get that attitude, the mental toughness, like I've got this. We can do this. We can all do it together. There's enough of work for us to go around. So let's try to figure out how to make it all work and make it work the way we want it to be so it's cohesive. Yeah, have
Mark D. Williams 18:56
you had a situation your career where you either lost out on a job or it you didn't get the work, and then years later, that client came back walk us through, like, what? Yeah, just that framing, I, you know, in building. I guess I haven't had that yet. I'm hopeful.
Karissa Dunham 19:14
Yeah, no, we've had a lot of, I've had a lot of clients that there's been a big job or two where it's like, okay, you know, I've, lost out because pricing wasn't quite right. We're not going to be the lowest price out there. We know that. We understand that. So when we lose out on the bed, it's like, okay, let's compare apples to apples. Now let's see. You know where we quite lost out, what, what we missed, what we didn't miss, staying in touch with them, staying in front of them, staying becoming friends with them, just staying in their circle. I mean, if it's a big contractor, you know, they know who we are. They know what we stand for. They're going to go to someone that's lower, someone that might be a little bit less than you, that might make a couple hiccups that you might not make because they might not have the installers, they might not have the production, they might not have the little things that you have that in the long run, you just kind of keep staying in front of them, saying, Hey, we're here. We've been here for almost. 50 years, we're not going anywhere. We still respect you. We still want to do business with you. And by far. Then two jobs later, it came back to us, saying, hey, you know we saw the work that they did. We know who you guys are. We know what you stand behind. You guys will come back. You'll finish it, you'll do the punch list, you'll do everything. We want to keep doing business with you guys. We don't care on the price going forward. So it's kind of one of those that kind of comes full circle. They just it's nice to know that when you lose, you don't really lose because you compared you. You're staying on top of it. You're still there with them. You're still competing with them every day. You still see them.
Mark D. Williams 20:36
The thing I like about your business is, I would imagine crash, or have you correct me first, but how much of your business is B to B versus B to C, 6040, for business? Yeah, yeah. The reason I asked that frame the question that way, is, like, obviously, as a custom home builder, I've never built for a business. It's always been for a homeowner, right, or a person, and so they just don't build that. What I like about a business app is it's, it it seems to be less emotional. And so then as you go through it, and there's pros and cons to that, but for this question, I think as you, as you go through it, people can realize your professionalism, and there's usually an opportunity to come back and use somebody again, like, I've had that before with like a painter or an excavator, like, you know, there's either an attitude issue or something, and then you kind of give it a break for a year or two, and then you kind of come and then you kind of come back and yeah, in some ways, the break redefined the next segment, and it is stronger and better than it ever was before. Because I think they realize you were willing to say, this doesn't work. This doesn't serve either one of us, and either they grow or you grow, depending on who the weaker Link was, right? But in the future, you're both better because of it. Yes, when you look at stories of your past where you're like, Man, that was that was an opportunity. We could have done better. You're the type of person that probably looks like because you're
Karissa Dunham 21:52
competitive as well. Yeah, positive, trying to see it like the best that we can see it. Yes. How do
Mark D. Williams 21:57
you sort of tell the team? Because a lot of times it's not about us as the owners. A lot of it's about like, how do we make sure our team's morale stays high? Because how many employees do
Speaker 1 22:05
you have? There's 47 and yeah, so a lot
Mark D. Williams 22:09
do you you know when they sometimes, I think we don't realize how, how sensitive they are to, like, the trajectory of us, like we as owners, at least, I know I get pretty focused on, like, what I see, the vision of the company, and I think in the past, I've often failed to share my vision with my employees, and so because of that, you don't, if you don't have a shared vision, you're not all pulling in the same direction with the same effort. How would you respond to that with how have you led? How have you handled that leadership and opportunity to share your vision with your team.
Karissa Dunham 22:42
I think the best way to to lead with your vision is letting people express how and where they want to go and where they see it going in their role, and kind of letting them say, hey, you know, this is what I think. This is how I am, but also seeing the big picture is, this is how how it was in the past, and this is where we want to go as a company, right? This is what we're looking for. These are our mission statements, our values, you know, being prompt, being courteous, being everything that Randy installed in us back in the day. You know, everything that we need to have the way the company should go, and letting people just kind of spread their wings and see how they really flow, and see if it works. If that lane doesn't work for them, maybe there's a different Lane in the company that might work for them. That might work for them.
Mark D. Williams 23:23
Yeah, yeah. Do you find that, do you guys, as far as opportunities for them to sort of network and be with each other as well? Sometimes, as the owners, if we lead everything, people sort of feel like like they have to. But sometimes, you know, just letting your team sort of self direct their own have a stake in their future. How have you sort of navigated that with a bigger workforce than what I have?
Karissa Dunham 23:44
Yeah, they're trying to, I mean, they're obviously being on commission, trying different things. They're trying different roles to make their own future, trying to spread it out and see what happens, and just trying to, right now, get a piece of the pie and seeing where we're going next. It's always, you know, the different acquisitions for the employees are sky's the limit. Yeah, and you have a big Expo coming up April 22 Yep, from two to five. It's a swing on by some control Expo right now, we have about 34 vendors. We have probably already RSVP to 620 people. Oh, my, it's gonna be large. Yep, I think we're planning on having about 1000 people there, which will be even larger catering, free food, free drinks. Sunny. Our mascot will be there. We'll be doing a lot live podcast, golf simulator going. We're going to have some really great prizes. Got a lot of exciting stuff that will be happening for people that are going to be coming in, lots of gifts and games. You can play lots of lots of fun stuff. And it's just
Mark D. Williams 24:38
an opportunity. I got the chance to walk through the factory and kind of see some of see some I was kind of blown away. Honestly, when I think of Sun control, I think of the film you put on our Windows that help with glare and all kinds of different things. But honestly, that's just scratching the surface. The amount of things that you can do, it's pretty impressive.
Karissa Dunham 24:53
So yeah, when people say, hey, what do you do? I'm like, do you have an hour? I'll come in and show you absolutely everything. It's not just window tint. You don't just control the sun. There's so much more. Yes, yeah, it's exciting.
Mark D. Williams 25:03
Well, we'll have everything in the show notes. Thank you very much for coming on the podcast. You're welcome tuning in every Monday for our episodes and every Thursdays for our 20 minute episodes. Thanks for tuning into the curious builder podcast. Thanks for tuning in curious builder podcast. If you like this episode, do us a favor, share it with three other business owners. The best way that we can spread what we're doing is by word of mouth, and with your help, we can continue to help other curious builders expand their business. Please share it with your friends. Like and review online, and thanks again for tuning in.
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