Episode 89 - Losers are Winners: Cinda Pfeil Was Told to Stay in Her Lane — Here's What Happened Instead
Episode #89 | Losers Are Winners | Cinda Pfeil Was Told to Stay in Her Lane
In 1999, a contractor told Cinda Pfeil — to her face — that becoming a builder wasn't going to work out for her, and the reason was exactly what you think it was. Mark sits down with the founder of Style Infused Living to dig into that defining moment, what she did with it, and why 26 years later she's still thinking about the electrician she met on a job site who brought it all rushing back. It's a conversation about patience, empathy, and what happens when you refuse to let someone else's ceiling become your floor.
About The Curious Builder
The host of the Curious Builder Posdast is Mark D. Williams, the founder of Mark D. Williams Custom Homes Inc. They are an award-winning Twin Cities-based home builder, creating quality custom homes and remodels — one-of-a-kind dream homes of all styles and scopes. Whether you’re looking to reimagine your current space or start fresh with a new construction, we build homes that reflect how you live your everyday life.
Support the Show:
-
Cinda Pfeil 00:00
I, when I was just starting out, maybe I was not showing up in a way where somebody would say, okay, yeah, she's got some work to do. There's no place for her as a female or whoever as a human in that space. I don't know that. I honestly, maybe don't truly believe that either because I've always kind of been like a driven person, or always wanting to be trying something new, that's just been my jam. Always
Mark D. Williams 00:34
welcome to cures River podcast. I'm Mark Williams, your host. Today, we are joined with Cinda file. We've got her from style infused living here locally in Minneapolis. And she also has another company we may talk about, called retro camp goods. And today we're going to do we're going to start off with our losers are winners. And since it has got the time, we're also going to have her share inside the big wins. So as the audience knows, we've been doing, the losers are winners now for about a year, and we're gonna start asking guests when they come in to give us both a winning story and a losing story, and then we'll separate them throughout the weeks so that we keep the 20 minute kind of respected. So with that, welcome to the studio. Cinda, Hi, thanks for having me. Yeah, excellent. We were just talking about how we knew each other. You're good friends with Katie and Jesse. Cath, Katie and Jesse,
Cinda Pfeil 01:21
yeah, Jesse and I went to college together. Yeah, I ended up marrying one of his fraternity brothers. We're not married anymore, but best friends, but yeah, so we go way back. We had,
Mark D. Williams 01:31
and I brought this up briefly. I didn't go through the whole story. So the silent seven was a sorority, no, sorry, a fraternity thing that Jesse and your ex husband had. And before the curious collectives, which is something that I do through the curious builder brand. The last three years, we had a small group in Minnesota, and there was seven of us, and Jesse and I, and Katie and the other builders wanted to come up with, like, a cool name. And no one came up with a cool name. And and Jesse was like, What about the silent seven? And so I abbreviated to the s7 and anyway, it's so funny that you I mean, no one else knows why we named ourselves the s7 except for Jesse. And now we had this full full circle, yeah.
Cinda Pfeil 02:15
And full disclosure, Scott, my ex, is a few years younger, so it's, I know Jesse in those group that he was in?
Mark D. Williams 02:22
Yeah, yep. There you go. That's funny. Well, we'll go. We'll do that with a story off air. Well, let's get right to it. What is how long you've been in business? I've been in
Cinda Pfeil 02:31
business for 26 years. A long
Mark D. Williams 02:32
time, yeah, quarter of a century. That makes it longer. I know I'm getting up there. How? So tell me this what I'm sure, like any business owner, you've had a number of setbacks. What are some of the standout ones, or stand out one that really, if you were to look back on your career, you know, like that one really hurt at the time. I didn't know if I was going to make it through it. And now, and in hindsight, you're like, actually, it's because of that I've learned this, that, or another thing. Or, you know, what kind of insight. Now, looking back, do you have,
Cinda Pfeil 03:01
I think the I really honestly cannot think of like a strong setback that's defining me. There's a certain trajectory that's happened since the beginning, when I started. So my degree was in architecture. Went to U of M. I knew I liked interior design. I was kind of dabbling all these other things in college. After I started my first career, I was kind of an interior design firm checking out architect firms got going, started my own business. There was a little setback with interior design firm, just not a good fit. But learned a lot along the way. Still got going with my CAD work and all that stuff, but I wanted to become a builder. And I was how old, I'm about to be 52 and a few this month, in my 20s, obviously, just starting out. And I was at a house working interior design at that time, and I was talking to some contractors over there. They're working on this house. It's a beautiful house. And I said, I want to do my own thing, and just would love to be a builder, and I've been thinking about it, and he kind of stopped me cold in my tracks, and he's like, that's just not going to work. That's not going to happen. It's not going to be a good fit. You're not going to be respected, you're not going to be taken seriously. And obviously we know why, because I'm female, I didn't let it upset me or anything. But it just gave me pause, right? You kind of say, Okay, do I need to stay in my lane? At that time, I thought, Okay, I got to stay in my lane. So the year is 1999 1999 Yeah, yeah. I know it's crazy. It's definitely defining looking back at it now,
Mark D. Williams 04:38
what was the what did you I mean, you obviously recalled the story 26 years later. Can you recall, like, what it was like to hear that at that point in time? Because, did you feel like you were just kind of squashed? I mean, that
Cinda Pfeil 04:52
I was like, you know, I was a little perplexed, because I, I'm a kind of a go getter. I want to kind of drive and do things and. Want to be dabbling in all these things. And I thought this is the ultimate this is the thing I want to do, because I want to be hands on with all did you wear
Mark D. Williams 05:06
controlled building architecture and interior design?
Cinda Pfeil 05:09
All three loved it. I love the idea of being able to kind of just do all the things and be a project manager at the time. Did I know what project management was? I was just starting out with my business. Did I even take a business course in college. No, I didn't. So I was learning along the way. But that's just how it's been for me all my life. It was, yeah, it was definitely disappointing. Yeah, I think I stuck with interior design. Obviously ran my business still going strong. It's runs itself. Honestly. I feel like I'm an employee of a business called style infused living just me, me myself, and I have had some other people along the way, but I still go back. You know, I still think about it. I know you and I talked a few weeks ago, and there was a specific moment that made me bring it up when we did talk that made me go, Gosh, God. That just brings it all back to me. I walked into a commercial job that I'm working, and there, it's big. They're stripping it all up. Excuse me, they're stripping it all up. And walked in and there was a lady working it, and she's got all of her tools on it and everything, and it's like she's the electrician. And it was so good. And I said, I got, we got to talk for a second. And so we talked about it. You know, I shared her that I shared that story with her, just like I shared with you. How old was she? Out of curiosity, she's, I would say she's probably mid 30s. Okay, yeah, definitely, couple decades younger than me. And yeah, she she loved the story. And she said, yeah, there's not many of us. And that's obviously to be true, especially with electricians. I would imagine. You know, I feel like
Mark D. Williams 06:39
trades in general, just as I've had a 22 year career, and I my dad was the builder, so I you know, and my mom was an as your designer. And I give a lot of credit to my mom specifically about this topic, because she told me, I said, What was one of the biggest successes for you and dad to have a successful career? And she's like, if you can't respect women, you won't make it. And I, she told me that I'm so thankful to have a strong mother, strong woman leader as well. And my sister is very strong and independent as well. But this idea that my clients are women, stereotypically, I mean, even that sounds not even true, like who writes the check? It doesn't even matter. You know, hate that term breadwinner and all that stuff, but we colloquially know what that means. But the point is is like all of us understand it. It's been this way a long time. My designers would always say, Happy wife, happy life. And now that I'm married, at the time, when he told me this information, I was like, single. Did not totally. I mean, I knew what he was saying, but now I really understand what he's saying. If mama bear is not happy, the household is not happy. And in in home builders understand on a very primal level, like, if we're gonna have a successful build the unit, I'm not just not disqualifying the man's feelings either, like they need to be listened to as well. But like, primarily, who drives the home decisions? It's women, yeah. And so it's always stood out in stark contrast, that the people that we have, so many men, that work on a home that is so dominated by the decisions from women, yeah. And I think that's changed a lot in my even in my career, I would say so. And designers are dominant, right? Let's call it 99% and in fact, I've had a few men designers on the podcast, and they feel reverse alienation. They're like sometimes it's hard as a man. In designers world and in architects, I've had a number of architects on the podcast, and it's really interesting talking to some of the more seasoned architects. When they first started architecture school, they were the minority. Now I want to say it's 6040, coming out of graduate, graduate school for AIA certification as an architect, women are more dominant than men, yeah. And so we'll see what happens with the trades, because I do think we're going to see, finally, I think we're seeing a lot of interest, a lot of rhetoric, a lot of discussions from me and people across the country, because there's such a vacuum. We are multiple decades behind getting people into the trades. And I think as you see, whether it's AI, whether you see jobs, but honestly, it's supply and demand, with the baby boom generation exiting, there's this huge gap of talent and knowledge, and you're gonna have a huge wage increase. Or I believe that that will happen for electricians, for plumbers, for HVAC, because those are still services that need to be done. So anyway, I
Cinda Pfeil 09:14
would agree. I would agree with that one you touched on the architecture thing, which actually is also kind of another driving factor when I was in school, back at U of M, a lot, and I don't know if it's the same now, but a lot of the quote, unquote professors, they were architects, you know, in this in the area, and they had an interesting approach with the students, or at least with my groups. They were not, they're quietly discouraging you from keeping the path going. And I don't again, I don't know if it was the sexist thing at the time, but because I remember, there are a couple of female architects that were also part of the teaching staff there, and they would just say, it's it's really hard, and very few make it, and it's you. May not like it, and it's all the just all this kind of like negativity, honestly, just around, kind of wrapped around it, so going into that, and then kind of thinking about me pursuing, and it's, it might be one of the reasons why I didn't kind of keep that path going with architecture school again, and I keep, kind of taking the back seat. Why do I keep doing this? You know? And I think about that now with the story, with the builder saying it was, he was a contractor, but saying, yeah, it's not going to work because you're female, that was the only thing that was kind of very defining with the male and female. Thing that wasn't necessarily happening in college, but these little kind of steps that kind of define how you're going to proceed. It sat with me. Definitely. Sat with me. Am I happy with my path I've gone absolutely yes. Do I always want more? Yeah, for sure, I would say so, yeah.
Mark D. Williams 10:55
Is there any, I mean, you're relatively young, honestly. Is there any interest in scratching that itch and
Cinda Pfeil 11:02
trying it funny. You say that because I've shared this story with a couple people. I'm in the dating world now. I've divorced and doing my thing. And they're like, tell me, is this something you want to pursue now? And I mean, maybe, maybe not. There's just, there's so many amazing people in the industry right here locally, and I applaud them, and they're doing so great. I just want to work with them. I don't need to take any Yeah, yeah.
Mark D. Williams 11:32
This episode is brought to you by Pella windows and doors. I've used Pella for 21 years as the exclusive window company on every one of my builds. When people ask me who I trust for windows and doors, it's Pella every time, their craftsmanship, their innovation, the top tier service, make them a no brainer for any custom home builder or designer who demand the best, whether you're designing something bold or building something with timeless elegance, Pella has you covered. They're also the only window company that has a lifetime warranty on all of their windows. I've gotten to know all their people at Pella corporate, as well as locally. Here at Pella Northland, I'm proud to call them our partners and our friends. Visit pella.com to learn more and connect with your local reps today. Also for more information, you can listen to episode one, where I interview their founders, as well as episode 109 where we talk about the innovation at Pella, there are a lot of design build firms that are very successful, yeah, you know. And I have a friend of mine down in Atlanta, and you know, he's he bit, they build 1820 homes a year, and really high end as well. But basically, how they're getting a lot of their clients is the fact that they're keeping it simple by having the designers, interior designers in house. And I know there are a lot of builders that do that, and so, and
Cinda Pfeil 12:43
I have, I've always that's through these few decades I've been doing this, it's always kind of come up, and they've been builders that want to kind of latch on, or people I've known in the industry, people I've known just on a social level. They're like, let's do our thing. Actually, Jesse, and when he was kind of starting out and doing his own thing, he was kind of had the background in cabinet making, and he's like, let's you know, love to kind of pick your brain. This is before he met. We were, I was married at the time, and he was kind of trying to figure out his thing and just kind of learning about how to start the business. So I still remember that, sitting with that and just to see how they have built this beautiful thing. I just, I applaud them well, and
Mark D. Williams 13:20
they do such a good job. As, you know, I can't think of a better analogy, but, you know, just yesterday, you know. But being Easter, the day we're recording, this is a Monday, you know. But just thinking a little bit about marriage and thinking about, like, Why did God make man and women? Because we're so different, like, even good marriages are hard, bad marriages are difficult. And I bring that up, but like in the context, I've had a lot of husband and wife teams as owners come on the podcast and talk. And I think when both can help each other be the best versions of each other together, they're better than they are alone. And I think that's true of business partners. And I look at like in this case, you know, we're talking about Katie and Jesse Cath, like they are both better today than they were before they met each other, and that's beautiful, both, not only business, but as people. They're lovely people. And I, I love seeing I love just seeing people succeed and doing well. So it's very encouraging.
Cinda Pfeil 14:11
It's so encouraging, and it's so inspiring. And I thrive off that stuff. That's just my vibe. I'm all about that. Like, let's see you guys rise up and cheer you on. That's so great.
Mark D. Williams 14:23
Yeah. Have you going back to what this contractor? I almost said, Gentlemen, but I realized he was not one, this contractor back in I didn't know what he didn't know. Have there been times in your life where either young girls or other women have kind of entered your orbit and you recalled some of this negativity or toxicity or discouragement, and you flipped the script and said, Hey, I was discouraged, but I want you to know this is an opportunity for you to actually spread your wings and
Cinda Pfeil 14:52
soar like that. Yeah, I would say I have had mentored some girls that are just starting. Out, or, like, thinking about interior design when they're in college and stuff, and they've had phone calls with me and whatnot, and that's been really fun. That specific subject has not come up, but, man, I sure would encourage them absolutely go for it. Yeah. And when I'm thinking about, like, my career path and running my own business, being it just me. I'm doing all the layers in the business. I've had really positive experiences with the subs and with the contractors. I can't really think of an experience where they're like, not taking me seriously. So I will say that when I kind of turn it around, maybe that's kind of that losers are winners, right? It, actually is a great story. I had a really fun project rebuilding a new cabin, or it was old cabin that we just renovated. The whole thing out in Wisconsin. It was a two hour drive back and forth, many, many times, and had subs. We decided to stay locally in that area. So all people I've never, ever worked with out in Wisconsin, and they were just respectful. And, you know, they're kind of in a smaller town, so they're that small town view and whatever, but they respected me, and I could see that, and they took their time with it. And I mean, maybe it's also because I'm seasoned in it too, and I've done this for a while, so I know how to approach certain things and stuff, so they could take me seriously. So maybe that was a little play in it too. When I was just starting out, maybe I was not showing up in a way where somebody would say, okay, yeah, she's got some work to do. There's no place for her as a female or whoever as a human in that space. I don't know that. I honestly maybe don't truly believe that, either because I've always kind of been like a driven person, or always wanting to be trying something new, that's just been my jam always. I think
Mark D. Williams 16:49
it's easy. You know, sometimes you don't know if it's a bad actor, maybe it's sexism, maybe it's racism. I mean, who knows what all the things that go into it. I was thinking about like it's easy to cast blame, but really it's what we do after that really defines whether that decision was good or not. My dad gave me great advice as a young person, and I say this a lot because I think it's true that sometimes there is no right decision between A, B or C, but what we do after we make the decision makes it the right decision. Oh my gosh. And I feel like the setbacks that we have incurred, or continue incur. I mean, we had one today. We had this beautiful Misa who is spec home right now. And of course, like anyone you'd love it to go perfect, but you know, you're building a one of a kind house. It's never been built before. There are going to be mistakes, and it's really, it's not a point of casting blame, like we know where the fault is if we were to diagnose it. Yeah, but it doesn't matter. Here we are, and we've got to figure out a way through it. And is it perfect? No, is it ideal? No. Is it what I would love to do? No, but guess what? That's construction, that's design, that's architecture. I mean, that's life, and so, like, you've got to, kind of just, you got to go through it, yeah?
Cinda Pfeil 17:54
And that's, I mean, you're working your business, you're doing your thing, your highs and lows and stuff. But the human condition is always at play, right? So you're realizing, okay, I'm going to grow from this, and what am I going to teach myself or somebody in that place? So I've had a lot of private things had that happen in the life, and empathy is always coming into play. So I always if I'm approached with maybe somebody or a contractor that's maybe not been very respectful and stuff. I almost, like, approach it with empathy. I'm not gonna, you know, drive it down and be this, like crazy person that's just gonna go on attack. I will find Where's some growth to be made. Maybe he's got some growth, or she's got some growth, or whatever it might be, but, yeah,
Mark D. Williams 18:37
so much of it depends on where we're at that day, too. Like, it's easier to have more empathy or more patience. I was talking to my actually, a couple weeks ago. I had my my three kids in studio, and we did a little called it Kids Corner, and Simon, who's my big feeler. He's my middle son, and he I had to fire a framer. I had never in 22 years had to fire a framer in the middle of a project. It was very whatever. Anyway, long story short was, is, in that whole episode, I basically asked my son, it's like, could you tell I had a rough week last week? And he's like, yes. And I was like, was I very patient? And he's like, No. And I was trying to explain to him, he as a seven year old, like, you know, when you I think patience is a muscle, and like, you more you use it, the stronger it is. But like, they're, you know, you know, I don't know I don't know if you have children, but like, I know, like, you know, at the end of a long day, and it could be a good day, could just be a long day, you're just tired. You just, you have used your patience. You've used maybe your joy. You just use everything. You were just tired at the end of the day, just a fact. And so you get home, and unfortunately, your kids come home, they're got a lot more energy, and I have a lot of energy. But like, you know, a kid is a kid, and they just want to be they want to be they want to love the stuffing or get the loving stuff out of them and just and whatever, and like, sometimes we're not as patient and as, I think, as entrepreneurs, as parents, you know, it's the messy middle of life, and it's and so then you realize, you know what, I'm sorry, Simon, I could have been more patient. And then, and I think it's okay to then explain to them why you lost your patient. Ian's, and it's not an excuse, but it is a reason, yeah, and I think it's important that we share that. I mean, that's what I tried to do.
Cinda Pfeil 20:06
I don't know if it's No, I agree. I think, as they say, those are teachable moments, right? You can parent around that. You can lessons learned. And these kids are paying attention, you know? And as a I feel like I'm a kid paying attention going through dating or going through whatever it is, I am paying attention. Mistakes are being made. I am learning along the way, just like I do in business, you know, and you touched on the word patience, that is such a important word in my world, especially with kids. Do you find just find
Mark D. Williams 20:35
that you're more patient with certain things than other things? Or do you think patience is like, sort of, like, universal, like, if you have patience, you can be patients, broad scale with it. I'm just thinking about it right now because, like, break it down, well, I want thinking about, like, I mean, I'm putting myself in your shoes, like, if I was dating right now, like, would I be more patient with the person I'm with? Because I want to give them some time. Or, like, or am I more patient with the subcon? I mean, I feel like, is patient?
Cinda Pfeil 21:01
Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I think I mean to speak on dating that that we need to be talking about private stuff, but it's fun. I'm such an open book, so it's fine. I would say paying attention patience is there always a steady space if you're paying attention to that and you need to, it's an important part of any part of your life, whether you are a parent, whether you're running a business, you have to have that. You have employees, you know, you got to listen, you got to pay attention, and you have to have the patience. So I would say, I don't know. I think it's just always there, and I don't know, for me, it's just something I've kind of learned along the way as a parent, and what worked and what didn't work in the marriage, and you know how that patience part kind of did play a role.
Mark D. Williams 21:43
Okay, so now I gotta, we'll end it with this question. This is a good one. When is patience? What's the right way to basically, like, when are you patient too long? I'm thinking more of an employer standpoint, like, I've maybe I'll just share my sort of fail on this is, like, there I'm such a believer in people in the hope of what's me a really good remodeler. It makes me really good sort of coach. It makes me a bad boss sometimes, because what I don't realize is that if you have a bad actor or bad apple or, you know, cancer, and you don't cut it out, it metastasizes and it affects the whole company. And so as I've gotten older, I start to realize that you should, you've got to trust your gut. But early on, you're like, oh, I can be patient or give them a chance. And like, it just never seems to work out. They just don't. And so, like, I that's an example of where I was. I was too patient, to the detriment of the company, to them, to me, what's your thought? What's your take on that? Well, it's funny you
Cinda Pfeil 22:34
mentioned that, because that is that sounds like me. You're speaking my language, I would say. But again, it falls in different parts of my life. I don't have employees at the time right now, I don't. I've had some through some different projects I've had, I've brought people on, kind of as a trial period and stuff. But I kind of run my own business, and it's just this thing. And I don't know, do I want to expand and grow? Yes, maybe someday. But the patience part, I feel like I'm, how do I speak to it? I'm sometimes it's like, if you're just kind of a kind person, it's hard to throw down the hammer. So the patient's kind of always kind of slides in there, and you're like, they'll figure it out, they'll do the thing, and we're just going to give them a little bit more time, you know? So I guess I don't know. I there's a definitely, if you're running a business, you've got people, you know, I was listening to the podcast you did winners or losers or winners with Katie, and she touched on this a little bit. And you Yeah, you cannot have that seed that is growing and it's making weeds and it's just taking over the fields. You got to figure it out, and you got to just do what you got to do to make it better for the whole group. So part
Mark D. Williams 23:42
of it is perspective and people like it sounds like you and I might be similar. I made a decision a couple years ago that I will never hire another person in my company. I let the people on my team make the hire. And so because my blind spot is I like everybody, I'm like a dog at a dog park. I haven't met a dog. I don't want to run around. So it's like, oh, yeah, you're great and, but that's not, you know, that's probably not the greatest strategy to hire people and build a team.
Cinda Pfeil 24:07
No, but that, I like that. So that's kind of a cool approach. You know, have somebody else in charge of that if you know that that's quote, unquote, a weakness or a blind spot, or whatever you call it. Yeah, yeah, I like that. Then yeah. Do that.
Mark D. Williams 24:19
That makes sense. Well, I want to keep this one to the losers and winners. Tune in next week for inside the big wings with send a file. Thanks for tuning in. Thanks for tuning in. The curious builder podcast. If you like this episode, do us a favor. Share it with three other business owners. The best way that we can spread what we're doing is by word of mouth, and with your help, we can continue to help other curious builders expand their business. Please share it with your friends, like and review online, and thanks again for tuning in.
This episode is sponsored by:
