Episode 36 - Style & Structure Share How They Built a Business Through Marketing, Education, and Community

Written By LAB MPLS

Episode #36 | Danielle Yegge & Joe Braun | Style and Structure

Danielle Yegge and Joe Braun of Style and Structure discuss their marketing strategies on social media that have helped grow their brand, including creating fun videos. They also talk about their building process, working with clients, writing a book, and producing a podcast to help educate homeowners. Danielle and Joe describe how they continue learning in the industry through seminars, code books, and seeing what other builders are doing.

Listen to the full episode:

 
 

About Danielle Yegge and Joe Braun

Danielle, Joe and the team of Style and Structure have been in the industry for over 30 years, and are dedicated to building/remodeling the home of their clients dreams.

With Joe on the building aspect of the company and Danielle handling home specialist needs, their clients are provided with support through the entire process with ample resources and guidance.

Resources

  • Alright, welcome to the curious builder Podcast. I'm Mark Williams, your host today I'm joined with Joe Braun and Danielle yaghi. From style and structure. Welcome, guys. Thanks.

    And just a slight correction. Pronounce Brown. Is it really it is

    really even though it's even though it's spelled Brown. Yeah, it's

    a spell brown just in the German way. Interesting.

    Knowing him for over 10 years. The first four years I thought it was Braun. And he heard me one day like four years into knowing Him being a sales builder relationship. And he's I introduced him hey, this is Joe Braun. He goes Excuse me.

    He knew me better than that. That's funny. I mean for the audience is name is spelled br au N. We should post a poll and see how many how many people would pronounce it Braun versus Brown.

    See our family refers to people that pronounce it. Brian is cavers.

    Funny. The best part was we were doing the Parade of Homes one time and there was a family that came in they filled out a registration card and it had his last name and I go excuse me, um, how do you pronounce that? And they said fraud. I was like, this is the constant debate. It

    is really a debate. There's somebody down at Cambria countertops, and it's Brian Brown. And I met him and he looked at my nametag and the first thing he asked was, how do you pronounce it?

    I like I like how he asked you. Yeah, it's kind of like, obviously, my name is Mark. But sometimes people spell it with a C. And it's funny because most people are Ks, but UCSC. Everyone's around to be like, how do you spell your name? That's a red flag. They're a C,

    they're a certain sort.

    Well, now that we've figured out how to spell each other's last names, mine is Williams there's really no way to mess that up. Tell us a little bit about you. Obviously, I'm familiar with you. I think you guys have one of the best names in the business, style and structure. For those that haven't met you, you guys can check out our YouTube channel. And you'll see, Danielle obviously is a beautiful woman. And Joe is a strong, robust building looking man. And you guys fit your your respective stereotypes and your title very well. But what all kidding aside, what I love about your name, is that the name style and structure to words, I can immediately tell what you stand for, in two words, was that I assume deliberate or walk me through a little bit how you even named your building company. It's

    not easy. We just brainstormed and we're writing down name after name. And we had pages of them. And it just kind of came back. And I really think, you know, it really fits Danielle and I because we are two opposite people on opposite ends of the business. And yeah, that's how it started. Well,

    I think it's funny. It's like naming a child, right? It's like, sometimes you both have different opinions. I might love a name. And then Joe was like, No, I'm like, Are you kidding me? So it took us some time going back and forth. But it's so great when you come up with a name that you're both saying like, Yes, that's it too. So we knew it was a winner when when we both agreed on it. Did you

    ever wonder if it should be structure and style versus style and structure?

    Not really, this just sounds better?

    I Well, I agree with you. And I mean, one of the things that I think is a superpower for you and I think would be interesting to know as you guys get more into the questions you But I always feel like anytime you have women in construction women in business, I just think it's a more powerful tool because guess what our clients are 80 90% Women make the decisions in our homes and the fact that in your leadership and your ownership and in your company, you guys, I feel are predominantly women. It's just interesting to me that, of course, people are focusing on style. And that's usually the questions our female clients are asking us, right? They're saying, hey, you know, we're attracted to this Pinterest board, these looks this stuff. And of course, the mister is usually saying like, how sturdy are these girders? What's your trust layout, you know, those types of slasher, always. But it's a major stereotype both ways. But obviously, style and structure, I would also from a marketing standpoint, for sure recommend that considering the demographics of who we work for. Yeah,

    and I think for us, it was not only defining kind of our individual roles as what we bring to the company, but it's also our process. I think, you know, a lot of the design elements of a home get put off till later, let's just focus on the architectural structure right now we'll get into all the design details, the tile and stuff later, we really do take a different approach. We do that right up front, we want to understand our customers style, and all of those different features for few different reasons. One, we believe that style affects the structure. You know, if you're, if they're loving this, like built in Nuuk, we want to incorporate that when we're focusing on the layout. But then separately, style affects the budget. So if I know a customer wants to deck their house out, we might not be going crazy on the square footage. Let's scale that back a little bit so they can get all the details they want in the home. So I think it's important to have it really from day one, agreed

    I we recently we've always tried, and I think part of it was we haven't committed to it. But now we won't start a client's home until we've made all the pre selections. I mean, I know shocking, right? The people listening to this are mostly probably builders as well. And we would love that. But the idea that you would start a house without having everything figured out, is, to me what we used to do 1015 years ago, because we wanted to get it go on to speed is important. But you can't really accurately tell somebody what their house is going to cost, or even really how long it's going to take to build unless I have everything selected on the front end. But you also have to commit to that builder as well. And I feel like, I feel like we've done a better job of messaging to our clientele. Now that by committing to us early in the process, we're going to remove some of the ambiguity, because we're going to get you into our process into our style selections, if you will, and really do go all the way through so that when we send it out for pricing, we're pricing out your actual selections. Do you guys do I assume the same thing we do?

    And I think that just eliminates the frustration of what people historically have with builders. It's like what do people dislike about building and remodeling, it's all the surprises, all the extra costs, we started this price. And by the time we were done building, it added up by so much. And it's like if you can get your selections done before you start that eliminates all of those questions. And sure, there's going to be things that pop up or changes you might want to make. But to minimize those is going to be huge. And the way you do that is having the selections all signed off. Before we start doing. Have

    you found that obviously the one con of that is but it's really, you know, client says, hey, my budget is $2 million. And you can tell by their style, they're selecting a lot of really nice things. And you're like, Well, I'm hopeful because we're optimists because we're builders you have to be if you're a pessimist and a builder you in the wrong industry. And so you know, you then submit everything out for bid, it comes back and your $2 million hopeful bid is two, three to four. But it's all based on their selections. When you go back to them. What avenues do you have to change now? Because you've you've really we have selected the things that you picked? Do you find that the client now is more open to that overage? Because they're like, Well, I love that tile. I love those white oak cabinets. I love those inset soft close drawers. Even though it's over, they realize well, that's what I picked. How have you navigated that? Because now you have you have less you have less people to blame. And obviously in our position, we're not trying to blame the client, but we are showing them that based on your selections. That is the reason this home is more expensive. How would you like to solve this as a team?

    Yeah, and that's the really tough thing. Like it's hard for people that say, This is my budget, because they feel cash, the builder just going to spend whatever I tell him they can spend, and that's going to be the price. So you bring up a good point, they make the selections, and now it's 2.3. And they say no, our budget really was two. And we'll say well, okay, now we can go back and we can design this and give you a $2 million home. You might have to change a few things. And there's some concessions, or maybe they say it's, you know, 2.1 or 2.2. But we really get to know them their actual budget.

    Yeah, and I also think it's just really understanding your client. Every time we have a homeowner. We change our process just a little bit because he learned something at each job and Some of it is those qualifying questions. How important is budget really to you? Or how important is the design because we get customers all the time, they're like, Sure, I'm aiming for a $2 million budget. But ultimately, like, this is my dream home, I want to get what I want to get. And then you have some that are strictly on a budget. In fact, if you can get them $500,000, lower, they would love that. And so we really do try to dive in and explain that to them. Most people's budget is not the design they're asking for. So what is more important? Do you want me to show you an all in scenario? Do you want me to compare that? So I think a lot of times, we're going back with two different proposals with customers. So we just had one we do remodels and new builds. And it was a remodel, she wanted to do a whole house remodel with a second story addition, or like, okay, and she wanted to stay at a certain budget. And I think we were about $500,000 more. And we knew when when you have that much of a difference with the budget, you know, as they're asking for stuff that it's going to be more so kept explaining, this is above what you're asking for, we can certainly design and and talk through options. So we got there, we presented the pricing, their sticker shock, especially with their husband, he's like, we're not going over the budget. So we turned it around, we presented something, you know, right at a million dollars where they wanted to be, but it didn't incorporate everything. And so the homeowner is like, Well, we were asking for Anderson 400. Now you have Andersen one hundreds and we were asking for this. And now you don't have that in there like we are showing you what we can do for a million. And I think when we do that approach, it usually some times ends up somewhere in the middle. Yeah, yeah. That's what people have to understand. It's gonna, it's never going to be exactly what they want, with that budget that they throw out.

    I mean, I usually very rarely do you go through the design process and our experience and end up not building is really how bumpy is that readjustment into the atmosphere. You know, coming back from, you know, Planet Mars, if you will, for expectations, even the best job that we can do. I mean, we do this for a living. We do this all the time. And I don't know if you find yourself doing this. But you know, I sometimes go into a meeting where we're over budget, and I feel stressed because I want to please them, I want to give them it's not that I don't want to give them all the things that they want. Nothing would be easier to walk in and be like, we nailed it. You got everything you wanted for the budget. I can 20 years. I don't know if that's ever happened. Actually, I don't know why, man. That's why we're optimist, I guess. But what I

    really like about that is it forces us to be more creative. Yeah, you know, we had a buyer one time and heard saying was this is a non negotiable, everything was a non negotiable. And we were so far over budget, we had to dial it back. And there was a lot of tears. And, you know, I think the end result is we got a lot more creative with things. And it turned out better than it might have had she had an unlimited budget. I

    agree with you on that show. Because I think there's certain constraints, right? People are constrained designers, architects, the land, I mean, sometimes the law itself has a huge role has a huge part to play on what the house looks like, right? And you know, what it's going to be shaped like, but obviously the budget, right? And as you get more creative, you know, maybe it is different. But I think when it becomes a reality versus let's say artwork on paper, the reality is always something real. And then it has a chance to become a home versus a house because you know, they're embodying it, right? Yeah. So

    it's funny when you say the tears, because that was that's tough. That's a tough conversation. Because a homeowner, whatever their budget is, this is one of the biggest purchases they're gonna make in their life. And for them to feel like they're compromising, you know, there's some times they're like, well, then I just don't want to do this. And you really have to help them understand like, okay, might not be what you originally thought, but we can make this great. And now that homeowner says all the time, for example, like built ins are super expensive. They just are and we switched out a ton of her built ins for fun, creative While details. And then she put furniture pieces for the storage saved her a ton of money. And now she claims that she likes it better because one, she could get really cool, while details. And to most people styles change. So often, having a furniture piece allows you to switch things out, rearrange a room, so it worked out for the better. But to your point, it

    wasn't. And I think you're right, though, a lot of times you'll you know, let's just use this example again of 2 million, you know, you design at, you know, 2 million, it comes in at two, five, they have the sticker shock, will usually one or two things happen. We come back, it's a week or two of kind of value engineering, figuring out some different options, letting them really get comfortable with it, you know, you and I've been working on the prices for a couple of weeks, and we're kind of seeing it and we're like, oh boy, they need some time to process it too. I try not to make all those decisions right in that first meeting because they're still processing. And then usually there's one or two things happen right? They come back and they will add the things back in at the beginning because they know that they want them or they cut everything out. And then during the build, they add them all back in. I don't know if I've ever seen Unit where they cut it in, it stays out. It's almost like they get to the point where they're feel comfortable with it. But then as they get into the build to add it back, however, that is not the best journey for the client or the team really isn't. So can you is that? Is that accurate? You

    feel like I agree. Yeah. So you'd like to take it off in chunks?

    Well, they swallow the big number first, yeah, now the smaller numbers are easier to swallow.

    And that's tough, because for our approach, we're super transparent on the front end. And so there are some builders who will actually do it that way, they won't include a lot of the additional things or the selection allowances that they know these homeowners are probably going to spend. Because, you know, whether people like it or not, they do understand people like to bite it off in chunks to me and my personality type that would be more frustrating. I'm like, give me the number. I'll figure it out. If I need to pull back. I will. But I want to see everything upfront. And that's how we just

    don't know, do you think it's an accurate statement to say that I think when when you interview your clients at the end, the thing that they disliked the most is change orders that they don't control. I think everyone understands, like if you add a pool, and there was no pool, like it is what it is. But you know, when you come back to him, and you say, Well, you know, we didn't have we maybe we didn't do proper design, maybe we didn't, maybe you didn't allow us or pay us, or really at that point you hadn't chosen, you know, either one of our companies at that time, and you were bidding out with multiple people. Ultimately, you're gonna have to plug in for more of a variance during the build. Because now at this point, unless you have accurate designs for everyone to bid off of no one knows what the other person's bidding. And now back to your point, Danielle, you know, maybe someone I think an easy one would be appliances. Well, I mean, I can tell like if one builder is at 40,000, ones at 20, that jumps out of the page. But it's a lot harder when you get into cabinets, and painting, and lumber and windows and all these and others 100 other line items that a client is just not trained to look for. But you and I would know that they're totally different homes, and you've lost the ability to have the relationship with the client, which frankly, for me, that's my number one priority. I want to have a relationship with the client do kind of wish you luck with that? Oh, absolutely.

    I mean, we are with these clients for over a year. And so it's not just I mean, it's it's a little bit selfish to because we want to have fun during this process, as well as having this homeowner have a good time and feel like they can trust us. I mean, it's a long journey. So if we're not having fun and enjoying the process, what are we doing this far,

    that's so true, it is a contractual relationship, right? That's what we entered into. But it's really personal as well. And, you know, we need to trust the client, they need to trust us, it's not just the legal contract on paper, because, you know, as well as I do that during the build process, there's sometimes just a lot of give and take, like, that was a misunderstanding, but we're gonna work through this together. And it's not always we're going to charge you through the nose, that's not what it's about, we want them to have the the best house, they can get this their home.

    And as a builder, you think of like your ideal client. And I think we've gotten a lot better as to who our ideal client is, and really understand on that front end, if someone doesn't seem to be a good fit. I mean, early on, when you're with your company, you're like, I just want to build any home, I can. And now we're at a point where it's like, you know, again, both for our sake, and the customers, I want to make sure like we are the perfect fit, cuz there's a lot of great builders out there. And that's what homeowners have to really think through is like, interview your builder. It's like just because they're a great builder who won all these awards and you love their style does not mean they might be a good fit for you. It really is about the team and the personalities, they've got to dive in. Because like, when we have, we just got done with this awesome build, I mean, probably the best clients to build for ever, every single thing, no build goes perfect. Every issue that came up they were so understanding, so trusting knew that we explored every option before presenting anything to them and trusted in that. And they had such a great build process, but so did we because it feels good to be trusted. And for them to understand. We are here to take care of them, they

    get that extra. I mean, it's not like you deliberately in your mind saying, Oh, I'm gonna treat this person better or worse or anything like that. But you know, your best clients, that's, I mean, there's a reason why you have a clique of best friends, like why do you spend the same time with family and friends and people that you enjoy being around, they feed your emotional bucket, you just, it's not hard to be nice to people that you care about in your, in your in your clients. It's a very unique, intimate relationship. And I agree with you, you know, some of your best clients, you know, you I mean, you're sending pictures to them of your kids, you're, you know, you're interested in what they're doing. And you know, even well after I mean, I have a couple now that we built 11 years ago, and they still are very interested in like, you know, they're now their daughter's married and their son is starting a business and he wasn't even married or had kids at that time. And so it but like they're still very interested in like where you are in your life and they realize that, you know, maybe professionally you're out to dinner in place, I can hear jokes like, oh, we can't afford to build with you now, but it's like, you know, 13 years ago, then every home is gonna be a lot different than 13 years ago, right? Yeah. But it's just it speaks to how unique the relationship is between a builder and a client. Yeah.

    And I remember our very first home for style and structure that we ever built was for my sister. And we had so much fun building this house. And again, not that it didn't have issues that we ran into. And it actually was, we were just dealing with finding and making sure we had all the right trades for the job, because it's going to be different on each job. You don't always use the same trade partners, depending on the home and the style that you're building. So we had some complications, but gosh, it was fun.

    What year was that? That you guys started? Um,

    was it 2018? That we built her home? Yeah, yeah, I think that's right. And it was just a great time. But after we were done with that, I reflected on it. It was like, gosh, how can we make every project like that? And really, it boiled down to the relationship, because she was my sister, I was very open and honest about the design process. You know, like, when you go shopping with your mom, or your sister or someone, you're asking their opinion? What do you think of this? And I could bluntly, tell her, Oh, gosh, no, don't you dare do that? Or oh, my gosh, this looks amazing. So we had so much fun collaborating. And I thought, could I do that with every one of my clients, and if we had the right style, and structure client, and I felt comfortable, and they trusted me, I want to be open and honest with them, and really help them. I've been in this industry for a long time. And some of these people, it might be their first bill, but at least certainly their first build with us. I want to help guide them and give them my true opinion and not just say, oh, yeah, that looks good. Because I'm nervous. They're, they like it. And I don't.

    Yeah, and I think that's really how I've always tried to, you know, run my job sites, even before style and structure, it was, I worked for a company, and they're a lot more negative sometimes on the buyer, because it's more of a one way street. And it always rubbed me the wrong way. Because I got to be true friends with some of these people. And some of these people now are reaching out to us. I mean, we've had a client that a lot of big Coon Rapids we built for many years ago. But it's easy through social media, you know, even if you're not close personal friends, but like you said, I'm following what their kids are doing. And it's it's a fun thing. Just the relationships you have is so important. And the honesty and transparency. I'm just, I'm there every day, right? Well,

    I think they're not I always tell people, you're not hiring a Yes, man. Like, if that's the case, then don't hire me. I mean, I will tell you what I think and I think what you're speaking to, Danielle with your sister is that it's honesty, right? Because it's integrity, it's the fact that you will tell them, you're guiding them, they've never built a home before, and whether they they're choosing you and obviously, we explained this to them as well. But you want an honest opinion. Now, obviously, we have to have maybe hedge some of our opinions on certain things. And I kind of tell my client, hey, I'll push back two or three times, and you know, in a respectful way, but like, if you want to poke it up purple house, I will build you a poke it out purple, I'll do it. I haven't yet to have anyone do that. But I use that as a dressing example. Because you know, you want people on your team to feel comfortable enough to disagree with one another in a respectful way. And I also believe a little bit in you know, kind of like fighting for your design idea. And because we have a close relationship with the designers we work with, and architects to, you know, I want to make sure I'm aligning ourselves with a team that is going to discuss a topic. And you know, sometimes I'll be in a cabinet meeting, and and I'll have a certain point of view on something and the designer will feel something different. I'm like, Well, this, I really feel I feel strongly about this. And maybe the designer is like, you know what, on this one, I'm not really that strong. If you feel that strongly about it, let's do it. Or sometimes you both would be like, I actually think this is better. I think it's okay for the client to see you. Because I would want you know, if I was if I was working with the two of you and your both were discussing in a way that I could see was respectful. You're fighting for my home to be better. And I would I would appreciate that, right.

    And there's so many different paths to accomplish this bill. And so that's what we do we discuss, we talk to peers in the industry, we talk to our trade partners, and trying to figure out the best solution for that home because it's not going to be the same across the board.

    The funny little story about about that I had a customer years ago, and we're getting right down to closing I could tell something was bugging her. And I said, what isn't? She said, Well, I don't want to be a complainer, and I said, you're not a complainer, just what is it? And it was this beautiful railing we had put together and there was a knot that just bugged her. And I said, I actually and I did I thought this really gives this character, but I don't like it. And I know it's not wrong but and we went back and forth a few times and I just had it replaced, didn't tell her I was going to do it and we got to closing and it was all done. And I said I did this for you but I'm going to keep this piece because I I think it's beautiful. And we're still friends. And it's years and years later we run to, you know, ran into her at the kids school. And she goes, Do you still have my railing? And I say, yes, because it's beautiful. That's

    so funny. And it was a little

    thing, but it was big to her. Right?

    I mean, you guys see that? We had it not as funny of his story, but it happens now more and more. Everyone loves rift and quartered white oak or white oak. And I can see you nodding you know where I'm going with this. And you know, you see a magazine, and it's a magazine for one thing, it's not in person. You can't you know, maybe it's been photo doctored. I mean, I've had photos doctored because I don't like a power line. And I'm, I'm you could do a lot of editing and photography, right? And, you know, anyway, every piece of wood was made by God on it in a tree, and each tree is different than the tree even next to it. I mean, we've seen some crazy stuff where people want to know, where did we source our white oak? What part of the country? Was it? Was it harvested from the same glade of wood? Like, could we prove that? I know you're laughing? It was I am not I'm not sure I'm ready to laugh yet. I'm still scarred. And the point of it is like, it's, I mean, this is wild grains, to your point, beautiful. Most people love, like, I love a rift and quartered board where it has that natural movement, or you have that like, almost like a fan of the wood movement. I think it's gorgeous. And sometimes we'll have a client that just wants complete uniformity, like not a single variance. I don't I mean, then you shouldn't really do would never want and true, because, you know, that's just not going to be that way. And so, you know, anyway, I don't know how we went down that wormhole. Oh, the railing. Yeah. So we

    had a similar experience with the White House. Because I love it. I have a very specific stain. We call it the custom style structure stain that I love to use. And we had a homeowner who kind of wanted that look, but chose a darker stain and said that was funny because it takes so differently to Oh,

    man. And each board. Right? Yeah, every board takes it differently.

    And you it's for these are two different styles of wood at that point, because it was so different than the sample they saw with a lighter color.

    Oh, when we got to their kitchen, they hated it. I hated it. I was like, Joe, what happened in here. And it was how like the stain they picked, took with this white oak. And we were asking our cabinet company like this can't be right. I mean, it looked like zebra stripes. It was really weird. I was

    like, Well, this is what they ordered. Right? Yeah,

    we had to redo that. I mean, that's our big thing is, again, you plan and plan and plan. And you try and make sure it's exactly what the homeowner wants. But again, we're working with natural products, all these different trades, things happen. And that's what we always try to remind homeowners because they feel like, gosh, there's gonna be a mistake. And my builders going to say, well, that's what you ordered. And they feel like they're stuck with it, and then they're gonna stare at it and hate it. And that's an approach Joe and I have taken since the beginning is like, if it bugs you that much, we're going to figure out a way I mean, it's not always gonna be free, but we're gonna fix this, because it's an eyesore. And it's funny, because every model home that we've ever had, I'll go through a house, and I'll be like, Joe, that didn't turn out the way I wanted something, it could be the smallest little thing. And I'll say, oh, but it's fine. And then we'll keep walking around the house. And a week later, when I come back, it's changed out. And he goes, I knew those could have bugged you, Joe, I said it was fine. That's

    a good partner right there.

    You say that, but I know you're not fine. And you're gonna talk about it all the time. Yeah.

    I mean, it is funny. I mean, to me, though, it does become personality, I think of my house now. So I haven't been a 1919 house that we've remodeled. But there's some things in the floor and some, you know, whatever's and it's like, you know, this is a new home, what I change it what I not, but after a while becomes kind of the character of the home, it sort of defines, you know, what it is? And so I know, I guess you sort of embrace the imperfect nature. And I get it too. I mean, I do try to have an understanding and empathy towards the client, like, you know, they've spent a lot of money and they want it a certain way. And so, you know, again, if they're reasonable, we'll try to figure out a way of course, to make it to make it work. And so and really, our clients are amazing at, you know, also understanding that perspective as well. Yeah. Yeah,

    we've had mostly good experiences with that. We've had some clients who aren't as understand. Yep.

    Yep, I've been there.

    We had a interesting client one time where he wasn't the easiest to work with. And again, this is prior to us feeling like we really defined who are our true homeowners are this guy. I mean, he there was probably a handful of trades that he up and fired, took the liberty to fire on a site that is very electric electrician, and for some reason, felt like it was not up to the standards and we got a call from our electrician say, this homeowner just fired me, like, yelled at me as I walked out the door and I'm he goes, I'm not going back. And I'm like, Oh my gosh.

    Wow. Yeah, it was tough. He was.

    Yeah, not the easiest to work with. What was really funny is my husband and I were purchasing a lot across the street from him because it was in this beautiful neighborhood. We ended up not Going, like we can't, I can't. And one of the challenging scenarios was, we're in this house. He saw he did not want to upgrade lighting or even put any money towards it. So he bought the like, $25 like boob lights around his hallway. I'm like, Are you sure you want this? Me? He was insistent this. I don't want to put any money towards my lights. Not that big deal. I'm like, at least a good like, led dislike. No. So anyways, they get installed. He hates them, of course, and wants to switch them out. Like no problem. You can switch them out. But this point lighting once installed can't be returned. Not to mention, I mean, these were pretty dark. Yeah,

    they're cheap. Well, plus trip charges in the trip charges alone would be Yeah,

    so the lights are not refunded. Yeah, but we can buy new ones get it installed. We won't even charge a new install fee kind of a thing. I mean, he was livid that I wouldn't refund

    not just livid. He was I was afraid he was gonna get physical Daniel.

    Well, he's got the electric electric field, too, right? Because he was the one who fired the electrician. Yeah, so he's definitely something's going on with sparkies. I

    mean, he was like purple in the face yelling at me, Joe had to like come and step in between, I mean, all over lights and like, so I'm very

    protective of her, by the way, and to see that was like, took every ounce to like, what the heck did we get to defuse this now, right. But again, it's

    like those moments or lessons learned, like, there was some red flags early on. And it was one of those scenarios that we just wanted, we wanted to build, we, you know, it was more about the job. And now, we really want to make sure we have the right clients. So

    I mean, identify. So I mean, we've kind of gone down a different path here. But I like where we're going. What do you what are some of the things that you use to identify who your ideal client is both from a marketing standpoint, as well as interview standpoint? And when you get going, like what are and maybe even speak a little bit? What are some red flags? And what are some ways that you try to weed out ones that aren't a good fit,

    let's say a number one red flag is when they take your contract. And they said, My lawyer wants us to change your contract. Number one,

    that's always tough, but at the same time, it's again, it's probably because they've had a bad experience. They're trying to protect themselves. So we haven't always walked away from that.

    And some turned out really well, I would say, what

    we've tried to do with our marketing, because what we've done, if anyone has seen style and structure on Instagram and stuff, most people feel like if they haven't met us, they know who you are. And we've really been intentional about that with social media or website, we want people to understand who we are as a team, how we communicate, we're extremely transparent on our website about our process and projects and highs and lows. Because before they ever meet us, we want them to feel like these guys might be a right fit for us. Because again, it's it's not us choosing them too. It's them choosing us. So we want to, we want to put everything out there and understand. And then we take the time to really discuss an interview like our before we ever signed with the client, we have a pretty long, detailed process. And it's one getting to know each other understanding styles and explaining in more depth what our process is. So we can all really feel good about moving forward to these next steps. Interesting.

    Yeah, I agree with you one of the advantages of social media, especially depending on how you market yourself, right, there are some companies that showcase only their home, and that's what they want it to be about. And I respect that I would probably align myself more with somebody like yourself, where, you know, I want the personality, I want the, you know, the people to shine, whether it's the subcontractors, the craftsmen, you can talk about all of it, but also realizing that, you know, you can have some fun while doing this. We had Steven Jaquan, actually my lawyer, and he was a fascinating interview, he was really funny. And he said, you know, he goes, I take my work seriously, but I don't take myself seriously. I like that, because you can be very professional in what you do. But you're gonna have a good time doing it. And I think it's an frankly, it's important, because if you're going to do something for a year, year and a half, two years, you do need to enjoy the team that you're with. And I do think where social media can really shine is kind of open up the door and show people what it's like, you know, to note to interview your team to see who they are. Yeah,

    you know, it's funny, Joe and I both worked for a previous builder together. And that's how we met. He was the builder. I was the salesperson working out of the model home. And this company had a, you know, these personality tests. And they categorized it in four different ways. It was like, you know, everyone has different

    ones, like the red, yellow, blue, green, yeah,

    this one was bull tigers, lambs and owls. And so you take this personality tests and figure out what you are. And the whole idea is one you typically attract your similar personality type and so like from a sales perspective You're probably you know, I was a bull Tiger, and why are you not in market?

    You and I are exactly the same.

    He, you know, they say, Okay, you probably most of your clients are going to be these bull tigers. And I looked at that, and I'm like, You know what, currently you are accurate. But my goal is to figure out how can I relate to the other personality types? And Joe, and I joke all the time, it's like, lately we have hired or not hired, we've had people come on board and be the owl personalities. And I'm like, what is it about that? Because, you know, again, I've taken the time to really understand what isn't our personality, they need the details, they need all their questions answered before they're willing to move forward with someone. So I've taken that approach in sales while still be in my bowl, Tiger self, I'm still giving them what they need. So it's been really funny, the personality types that come through the doors, it's not always like, just like you, but you can figure out how to work with them to sell a good time.

    I think you're right, because for a long time, I mean, if you have someone like yourself, it's really like I always say, salesmen are easy to sell to, you know, we love to be sold show something shiny, and flashy, and really colorful and pretty Lagu. I like it. And I remember, I remember what, you know, a trial close question is, for those listening that don't know, sales, but like, essentially, it was like, hey, if everything works out, okay, and we meet your price point, is there any reason why we couldn't have a contract written by the end of the week as a trial closed question, because obviously, they're gonna have to say yes, if they say yes, you're saying yes, right. I did this early on in my career, I don't really do that like that anymore. And I was maybe 2627 When I did this. And in the guy goes, that's a trial close question. And I got like deer in a headlight? Oh, no, I've been found out. And he goes, and I love it. And he was a car salesman for a dealership, and he loved it, he didn't actually buy, he goes actually already bought a house. But he goes, I love what you're doing. The point where salespeople love to be sold to in a lot for a long time. And it's not that I can really slow my speech pattern down all that much or my enthusiasm. But I think by partnering with people on your team, whether it's your senior project manager, or Joe, you know, or whoever, your however your sales team is approaching your clients, having people on your team that complement each other energy wise, and you know, what it personality wise, because every client is not obviously the same. And for a long time, I felt like engineers, in particular have their stereotypes too. And so you know, they're very detailed focus, they ask a ton of questions, they have to feel comfortable in the knowledge, they're not going to be kind of swept away with emotion and passion of all these really cool design elements, right? They know, they're going to focus on the structure of style and structure. And so I think understanding that having, it could be your designer, it could be your architect, it doesn't always have to be even within your own team. And I think then making that person feel comfortable, but that's really the point of contact. And for my company, it's me for sales, you know, essentially, I need to identify them pretty quick on my read on them. And then, you know, maybe I'll bring someone you know, that has some of those similar traits, I assume, would you when you're interviewing people and seeing like that are good prospect? Are you bringing different people into the room that are gonna kind of fill that out for you to Daniel?

    Yes, and no, I mean, what we actually do is we do a personality test for every one of our clients, what

    point like you meet them? And then the next one is

    they've signed? Yeah, we have, after they've signed, after they've signed, we fill out a lot of paperwork, we have them take a personality test, we have them fill out this form of like, what's their favorite coffee and wine, you know, because we do all these fun things throughout their build and little guests. Taking notes, Mark,

    I am taking notes, that's a great idea. Now, after they signed for the build, or after they signed your pre construction agreement contract, preconstruction, okay, so

    we want the whole process to be fun with them. And then we take the time to do a download with our whole team and explain, here's the personality type you're about to meet. So they can really, you know, cater to that. So again, you know, our designer, if she's talking to the engineer type, how can she really dive in, because our designer is so knowledgeable and not just, you know, the purity of all the selections, she knows all the quality details, she knows how it should be installed. And so what makes her a great designer, because I'm like, she knows the construction side of it. So when she's suggesting whether it's tile or faucets, cuz people was asked with faucets, you know, why are we going to get a expensive Brazeau faucet and not I can just go to Home Depot and get it. She knows all the plastic versus metal components in between to say, here's why it's costing what it is. And that makes a great designer because it's not just this is pretty let's put in your house. So she can really speak to that personality type.

    How an auto curiosity how, how involved is that person? Is it a pretty high level one? Is it pretty in depth? I mean that these personality tests go anywhere from five minutes, 10 minutes to an hour long. How much information are you having them? Take during that time? One Page Test a one page test? Yeah. And husband and wife separately?

    Yeah, yeah. Have to Yeah, you got to speak to them different.

    I knew an architect that would interview the clients together and separate before he You would sign with him, he would interview you, and then he'd interview you. And then he would interview both of you together. And it was his way of like in case maybe one of the spouses didn't really feel. I mean, obviously, they're married. So you think they'd be comfortable talking to each other, but maybe there's just something that they really wanted to be heard. It's amazing

    how many people are not. Yeah. So we've had we had a client already to where, you know, the husband, he's coming with all these issues. And you could tell that it really was never coming from him. And the wife was there every day and loving everything, but then later, she really didn't love it. So she's going home and to break through that relationship, like, No, it's okay. If you don't like you can, you can talk to me about it. Right.

    I mean, one thing that I'd actually mentioned earlier on, and, you know, you both are extremely approachable. And so I think that's obviously been a huge boon to you and your building career because I mean, Joe, you're if you're the structure, you're also just you see, you have kind of these bright twinkly eyes like I mean, the first time, it's funny, and I say this, because I couldn't think of another way to say it, like, I, I'm not necessarily envious of other companies, because I just respect other companies. And it's just not really my DNA to say like, Oh, I wish I was them. But I will say this about style and structure. I, I've always from the first time that I ever saw your guys's reels and everything and I saw your energy, I've always just kind of like, there's a part of this, like, I just want to be on their team, because I just really love that the energy that you have, and Joe, you just have this way of connecting with people. And I don't know how else to say it other than kind of sparkly eyes. And like I can have you heard this from your clients? Daniel?

    Oh my gosh, yes. And the big thing is, is like, the field guys aren't always like, Great in front of customers. Like, we have a lot of guys who are great on the job site. They're great at what they do, but they don't want to deal with the customer service side. So when I first started working with Joe, I'm like, Oh, my gosh, I found a unicorn, a guy who's knowledgeable in the field, and he's quite

    stylish. I mean, for the structure. He's quite stylish. Good job picking out of stuff.

    Pick out. Oh, that's fine. That's fine. But his wife shop for

    a fee. Double whammy. Yeah. Right. You're getting to both at work, at work. And at home. Joe, you have no choice. Speaking of which, you know, you guys have a partnership, you guys worked at a previous builder. You guys decided to start your own thing your first client was your sister as you guys went on? Well, I'd love to hear is. We've had other husband wives that have been on before as teammates. I've had other families like a son and a dad on before. I've never had partners on that. Weren't you either married or family? Talk to us a little bit about partnerships. I mean, a lot of people have partnership relationships in their building. I'm curious a little bit about contract, conflict resolution. And just how are some secrets to how you guys work together? Well, because partnerships I know are not always easy. Sometimes when you're when there's when you're the sole proprietor, I mean, for better or for worse, the buck stops with you. But you can also kind of what you say kind of goes in what you should obviously listen to your team. I mean, I get that, but at the leadership, you guys are at the top. How do you guys conflict resolute together? Well,

    to start off, I mean, I've been in the business a long time. I've always wanted to own my own business, but with a partner because I just, you know, I love the idea of being able to bounce ideas off of somebody. And I've had the opportunity a few times, but the partner wasn't quite right. You know, now that I did this, so many people ask, why did you wait so long? And I blame it on Danielle, because I had to wait for her to grow up. Yeah. But it's awesome. When I met Danielle, I just, I felt right away. Like she's somebody that I can trust. I can look her in the eye and just, she's, you know, the perfect business partner because we can be completely open and honest with each other. And for the most part, we we get along really well. But if there's conflict,

    we always conflict.

    And it's should I tell the story about the last time it was bugging me?

    Sure. I'm trying to wonder what it is. Yeah. Which one is it? Yes, this is perfect.

    So we have this, you know, we like to get out of the office if we're, you know, need to get something off our chest and we took a walk across the street and we're gonna we're gonna have it out and it just, it did not go well. And I came back and I said, Okay, this is what bugged me, Danielle, we are never going to argue again when you're wearing sunglasses, because you couldn't see your I could not see your eyes. I said I need to look you in the eye. Yes.

    Like I've never heard them. That's so funny. Joe, I

    need to see your soul Danielle.

    Yeah. Well, there is something about the way we emote, right. I mean, so much of communication is nonverbal. You know, I mean, even like this podcast, like I wanted as many interviews as possible to be in person. I feel like just of course, just were people right. And plus, I feel like I've spent too much time on zoom over the last couple of years. And we're not even really in that dominant of a zoom industry compared to some did. There's something about reading people's body language that's going to tell you much clearer. You know where you're at so I understand why you want the sunglasses

    and honestly, you know in as our relationship evolved, it is almost Slyke I have to trust her 100% Without even a hint of, because there's so many things financially and everything. It's 100% both ways. And I think that's very rare in a partnership. Great. Yeah,

    I think, you know, when we met, it was very obvious that we both were passionate about very opposite ends of the industry. So a lot of times when people partner together, it's, it might be two builders who have been in the industry, but they're both doing very similar things. So it was nice to have two opposite ends. So although we very much each have a pulse on what each other does, you know me more on the front end sales design marketing side and, and Joe with the build, I don't have to worry about his side of the business, he doesn't have to worry about mine. And that's not to say, you know, there aren't struggles going on. Sometimes they're build and he's stressing out, we bounce ideas off each other. But I ultimately know that he hasn't handled and it does boil down to having that, that trust and also level of communication. Like there's nothing I wouldn't say to him and incredibly, bluntly to because it's like, if you feel like you have to hold back with someone, it's like there's always guarded relationships. Yes, something that said.

    So it takes energy to I mean, if you have, we're just talking about this extra day, my project manager and I are very, very similar. And I think one of the reasons why we enjoy each other is that it doesn't take much energy. In fact, we get energy from each other, it's easy to communicate, and we had a facilitator come in and help work with our team on our personality traits. And that one of the questions was, how different are you at home from where you are at work. And for me, I was the same. And, but for some on the team that were, they felt like they had to put on a different personality that wears on them. And so like, then my job as the owner is like, How can I create either their role or the office in a way that they feel comfortable so that they feel like they can be themselves. And the reason it's important in a relationship is if you are trying to be something that you're not, or if you are constantly trying to readjust your altitude for the other airplane. It takes effort. And you know, it's a little bit like at the end of the day, you know, you've used up a lot of your your energy, and then all of a sudden you get a little short with, you know, wherever you're near if it's taking too much energy. Yeah. And what

    naturally comes together, I think like ours did, yeah, I'm very much a pleaser. But I also like to be challenged. You know, Danielle, she'll come up with a lot of these crazy ideas on stuff. But she doesn't give me the opportunity to say no, yeah, but by the way,

    I've already made this decision. Okay, great.

    I don't care how to do it. I don't care how you do it. I just want to look like this. Right. And I love that challenge. Because I never wanted to be in a business where you know, the old school, we've always done it that way. That can't be done. It's not possible. That's not even on my radar.

    Well, that's why we worked so well at our previous company together. It's because I still had all these crazy ideas. And everyone was telling me no, constantly. And then I talked to Joe, I'm like, you can make this happen. And it would be like the feature on the home that everybody talked about when they were touring the model. And like, once it was done, a lot of people who said no before, took a lot of pride in it like oh, look at this cool grocery store pass through that we did and like, yes, the one that couldn't be done. Yeah,

    the one that you said

    no to, but I did anyway. And I think a lot of builders are like that. And that really good builders, it really works for them. They're successful. But when you can drive up to a house and say, I know who built this house, you know, we just never wanted to be that.

    Yeah. And I think we've taken that. And we've had that as a culture in our company, which has been huge. Nobody in our company is allowed to say no, to us to a homeowner, what we can say is you either say yes, completely we'll get this done, or here's why we can't do it but and get a solution because a lot of ideas come from beautiful homes in California or somewhere off in Europe. And unfortunately in Minnesota, we have a different climate. So not that it we can't get close to it, but it has to be done differently. And here's why. So for example, like Windows, I love that seamless look on the corner with Windows, the

    window glazing the glazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's not good luck when it's negative 30.

    But, you know, we weren't I totally understand what you're saying and get, you know, great ideas and get close and get ultimately

    it's not a no client. It's just not here. We're opening up a branch in Scottsdale, Arizona and we'd be loving there. Yeah. I like that. They're not allowed to say no, do you guys have like a no jar? Sort of a swear jar? So you heard someone say no, you got to put $1 in it because we

    don't have a no jar because really, it's like, I mean, people have just gotten used to it because I pushed back hard if someone even attempts it. We do have a jar $1 jar and it was for being late to meetings. So people have to pay $1 Every minute they're late to meetings. And we now no longer have people late and even if they're going to be late for something like you know, we understand if it's a client meeting You know, we don't ask them to end that early. But they will make sure to let us know and notify us. So we don't do that issue anymore.

    That's pretty genius. So we had Daniel felt from curl home maintenance, you guys used curl home at all for like air duct cleaning and stuff like that. You should listen to his podcast, he was really a sharp dude, with a couple of takeaways. I think he reads a book a week. So he reads 52 books books a year. And he's very into like continuing learning, but one of the things that he does with his staff, so like, let's say you're going to show up at 8am and your tech is late or they have to read cancel. So let's just say that appointment cost $1,000 And you had to reschedule it to Friday. So you lost $1,000 Plus, you had to rebook it once you lost that client. So it really cost you like 3000 or 4000 for the rebooking, right. And so what he came up with was on time, every time where I can't remember that he tells us on the podcast, I can't remember, but it was like, let's just say it was $100, or let's call it $50. Every time you're on time, if you get $50. If you do it for a week, you get a week bonus. And it accumulates through the whole year, per week, right? Because it costs him way more money if he has to reschedule than if he just pays you a $10.50 or whatever the number is, right. But here's what's cool. Let's say his company has 1520 people, if everyone in the company is on time, the same day, you get a company wide bonus for everyone. So that what happens is people start holding each other accountable. So it kind of like your dollar jar for being late, right? You don't want to be late in front of your peers, and you want to respect their time. So that's what made me think of it. I

    mean, it's just it really is motivational. And sometimes you feel like, gosh, it sounds childish, and dollar jar. But it did solve an issue where I mean, there was a couple people who were on time, if not early to every one of our meetings, and they were feeling really disrespected. Like you don't value my time and your time is more important than mine. And it was our designer who brought that up. And she just started getting angry about it like, Okay, this needs to be addressed. And again, it was for some people's just a few minutes, or they're strolling in or they're grabbing a coffee and like this is just something we really need to change about our culture. Because for us, I think that's been important from day one is we're hiring people in our office mean, what you see is what you get on social media. No, we're not doing a music video every day in our dorm, singing a Disney song as we're going

    by comma there, I'm coming with a boombox on my shoulder, I'm singing the Latin, bring it on,

    we would love that. But it's fun. And it really does feel like we value of work life balance. And we value having fun when you come to work. Because you're at work a lot of your life, you're like, Yeah, you're there all the time. So if you're not going to enjoy it, like, again, what are you doing, I

    was reading a book recently, and someone in the book was mentioning that not having meetings on the hour, starting on an hour or ending an hour, especially with like zoom stuff, right? So it's like you started meeting at 105. And you ended at 155. And you know, our calendars don't set it up that easily when you're doing an auto thing, it always goes to the top of the hour, but it gives you like that 10 minute, breather room, and it also allows it and then keep your meeting like end your meeting when it's supposed to end. So you're talking about the beginning side of it. You know, sometimes especially the Minnesota nice thing, some of our meetings can last a long time, because you end up just continuing to talk and talk and talk and talk and talk. And we actually

    time most of our meeting, do you really? Yeah, like if we're gonna end it an hour? And then we rate our meetings as well. Everybody? Are you talking about internally or with clients? Well, internally, mainly, but also with clients. If they're, you know, an hour, we try to really stay within that. And it makes a big difference. Because when you get off on these tangents it can bring it back, hey, we've got you know, 15 minutes left to wrap up. But internally, we also rate the meeting then so so tell me why and what you do with it?

    Well, we actually use a program called Traction. Have you heard

    of it? It's actually one of my questions to ask you about because I've heard you loosely reference it several times.

    Yeah. So we love it. And that really helps keep us organized. So again, as a company that's having so much fun. If you don't have something to keep you on track. I mean, we could all stop and drink coffee all day together and chat and never get any work done. So I think it's really helped us be organized in our meetings, but also our to dues and just staying on track.

    The beauty of it is, you know, the meetings are very structured as well on what we do with our time. And you know, everybody likes to be us at the beginning of a meeting. So we actually give five minutes for that everybody in the meeting has to say, what's a personal and professional, good thing that happened in the last week? And it's really great. You get around that five minutes is up, everybody kind of you get to know each other a little bit better. Yeah. It's awesome.

    Interesting. I like that. I mean, we do we have a networking group that I'm in and we do the same thing that rosebuds Thorne and we do at the dinner table, frankly, with the kids, you know, so it's but obviously you're gonna have to if you have any got a bigger team is and it was five minutes. You have to go pretty fast for that. Yeah. Oh,

    yeah. You go back and someone gets off on a tangent about something that happened over the weekend. And we're like, there's a tangent button. Oh, yeah, it beeps at that right. Okay, so We're gonna,

    like taboo.

    Buzzer but my goodness, there's so much to get done in a day. And even with clients you talk about, do we keep them on schedule? It's like, to an extent, yes. One, we have to respect the meetings that follow after that. But too, it's like, even if they think they want to go off on these tangents and discuss, if they've been in a two hour meeting with us, they leave being like, oh, my gosh, I'm exhausted. So, you know, we understand you only have so much attention span and only so much that you really should be getting done with a client each day. And and then keeping it moving.

    How big is your team? We've got 10 people, okay, on staff. So yeah, and that's a good fit for you. How many homes are you guys building and remodels or how many projects a year

    I think the size of our team is perfect. It really is covering not only what we're currently doing, but our growth projections. So we have a mix again of remodels and builds, currently, we have about eight new construction homes under contract, some are have started build and some are getting close to that. And then for the remodels, we have quite a bit, I would say we have probably 20 to 25. But again, we do remodels of any size.

    We're so you have no price limit on the bottom end, we don't Oh, wow. So you'll do like $20,000 bathroom, we will

    Yeah. And we do this because we a lot of our $20,000 bathrooms, we have a lot of relationships with like real estate agents. And a realtor is like, hey, my client needs to get this few projects done to get it listed. And so we'll help them get it listed. But they're also if they have a great experience future customers.

    I mean, I love I struggled with that. I mean, I don't have the official rule, because you try to I usually someone will call come off the website and maybe our pre questions, they either skirted around some of the rules or something like that. And, you know, we have some intake forms as they're trying to get ahold of us tell us about their project. But I used to do like a 15 minute call and I have found and we're a smaller company do you are half the size. And I have found that any project really under a couple 100,000 For remodel I it takes as much time as it takes me to do a million dollar remodel, honestly, between the design in the questions and the time, and the profitability. And if I'm really going to make it profitable, or really value, if I have to take my project manager away from a million dollar remodel, I have to charge his same rate for this client. And now all of a sudden, I'm not very economical. And I usually tell the client that I don't think we're the right fit for you going back to attracting the right clients. I have not been able to, you know, earlier, I would take you know, obviously anything and everything figured out. And so after time, we realized like, wow, that little bathroom or you know, whatever, the thing took six months. You know what, that's just a lot of time and maybe I missed out on some of these other things because of it. How have you How have you been able to navigate that better?

    I think we've struggled with that. And there's certainly been complaints, even on our team, like, should we really want to take on these projects is taking so many of our resources. And you're like

    and you're like I'm sorry, guys, we can't say no. We can't say no. So it's got to be a yes,

    I think what we've decided to do is put a bit more boundaries around that. So, you know, again, we're very clear about our process. We've reeled in our allotted time that homeowners are allowed in. So if it is a smaller project, they won't get as much design time included, they can always pay for more. But that's the whole point is like, you know, every client is different, some takes more time than others. And the ones that do take more, we want to make sure our teams getting paid for it. So we've adjusted our process to hopefully be, you know, quicker and efficient on those smaller projects. But then if it is going over, the homeowner is very aware. Like if if they want to we don't want to take that option away from them. But it's true cost for us. So we want to make sure it's getting paid for

    is your Oh, man, I lost my train of thought there. I was like, I was like I'm not going to interrupt you. I will remember my question. I didn't interrupt you. But I definitely forgot my question. I'll shoot. So

    we're talking about the size of our team. Yeah, you know, and feeling that's right now. But we really project like where we're going. Because the last thing we want to do is get desperation higher. Yeah. When Danielle and I first started, you know, we needed people, we needed them fast. And I know some guys that are very experienced. And sometimes experience isn't the only thing you need, it has to be a culture fit. And then we kind of flipped over and it's like, well, this guy's a culture fit and we can just teach him. Well, that didn't work very well either. So to find that right mix is hetson art form. It is

    we actually just our office managers last a while recording this is tomorrow. And so we have been interviewing I think we had 16 applicants that we narrowed it down to four. And, you know, it ended up being it was not even the one person that we're going to extend the offer to is it just perfect. It seems like the right fit the right personality, the right energy. And there was two other things that were like very good. But it just, I can't tell you what it is. And I guess the proof will be a year from now. If Joel is still here, this podcast will not air before I tell him that it's his job. So anyway, you know, he was the right fit. So get

    a feeling it's like one against the combo of that experience. But also, you know, isn't that a culture fit? And sometimes, people are really good interviewers, and then all sudden you hire them and you realize, so

    that's funny you say that. So for years, I mean, I think we've only had one person ever leave our company. Meaning some have left some retired some one, one lady who was amazing move back to Sweden. But in general, like as you would normally say, if quit, I've only ever fired one person and only one person has really quit, if you will. And so I don't have a lot of experience with hiring and firing in because it's worked out pretty well. I've always just basically hired people that I like, which is actually a terrible way to hire people turns out, and so the last couple ones, I felt like, Man, I just I think I'm such an optimist. It's probably what makes me a good remodeler is like, Oh, they're gonna be great. You know, they can no problem. They'll be great, right? And so, this time, I had someone pre do all the first interviews. So before I ever met anyone, so that I only got the ones that kind of made it past and, and then I had someone else sit in with me as well on the interviews so that, you know, you could kind of say, well, what do you think? And it's like, if we both unanimously chose the same person, you're like, Okay, now I feel much better about this higher than, you know, maybe once in the past, just giving it more thought. Yeah, definitely. But

    I think putting a heavy weight to that culture fit is huge. Because again, I mean, no different than what we're talking about with customers that you're building with. It's like you're around these employees all the time. And Joe, and I really pride ourselves in hiring different personality types, because I don't want someone who's exactly like me, because those are some of the talents I bring to the table. So I feel like we have a really well rounded team or everyone's really bringing a lot to the table. So you've got to be able to pull your weight. But you have to also be able to like enjoy yourself and have fun and we don't have a lot of like, it's not like we hire all extroverts. We frankly have a lot of introverts on our team, but we're still all in joy each other and we go to these like, you know, fun award shows for the Parade of Homes together this year. We're taking a big party limo out, I'm like, we want to hang out. So I'm like, I just think that's so much fun. And I'll

    let you in on a little secret. All these reels and music videos we do. Really not my personality. Yeah.

    I saw your latest when I saw the friends one that you guys just aired, which is what we did one like that last year, but we did it with snow balls. And a few other things that you guys went full couch and umbrellas and the whole like you went like you went method acting on that one well done. Yes.

    Our marketing girls obsessed with friends. She's been dreaming of doing this for a while. Good.

    I don't even fight it anymore. Right? Okay, they want to do a real, let's get it over with.

    Let's smile and wave. I do love it though.

    We actually have it in our contracts when we hire on employees, letting them know like, you will be on social media, you will be in a music video, there will be photos, they all think it's a joke. They think it's joking. And I'm sitting there straight because my Oh, yeah,

    well, no, no, the fact that if you have if your employees, much less your clients have not been following your social media, then they really are losing out because I imagined people out of curiosity, how often are people requesting to come work with you? Because of what you're what they're seeing? We get a lot of applications, I would imagine. So it's

    actually funny, we get a lot of applications to design and marketing. I mean, I think a lot of people think those jobs are gonna be really fun. And they don't realize like, how intense those jobs are. I think of design and it's funny we brought in

    is dear is your interior designers in house? Yes. Okay. But we've also brought

    in a handful of interns that are going to college for it. And every single one of them has been shocked at what goes into the job because they think they're gonna meet with customers. And they get to do all the fun design picking out tile. Yeah, most of it is finding prices, documenting, not documenting in a fun way. Like, here's the color of the tile, I want to paint actually documenting for the trade so they understand the install. Like, that's not always fun. And the interns we've had are like, oh, gosh, I don't know if I want to be a lot of work.

    I mean, you see, I mean even like the video, right? I mean, the the Friends episode counter, that theme song can't be longer than about a minute minute 12. But I put that took probably five to 10 hours, probably more than that probably took two to three days in thought process design, pitching collectively, right? Buying the props doing all that stuff. I mean, maybe this is killing the vibe for Joe. But if you did the ROI on that because I have a much smaller company and we don't do the video in house. It's like well, man, if I edit that if I mean, I remember they did this really cool. I had someone write a song for me. I did. I don't know if you ever see that one. Yeah, I think that cost me like $1,200 or $1,500 because I had to pay someone to write it. I had to hire a professional videographer to do it and it was really cool and I remember it and then you know didn't even get that many likes was like 4000 views or whatever. And, and, and my wife one night she goes, How are you making money on that? I don't know, I really enjoyed doing it. And I was like, Yeah, that's a good point, that's not actually really helping me all that much. Now, that being said, I now have taken that video, and I've used it a lot for vendor collabs. And like brand ambassador ships, like, I still have this idea that, like, remember the whole real men of genius concept, you know, like real man of genius. And they'd have like, these funny, whatever I thought would be really funny to do a series of that about building how building isn't easy. And then, you know, like a Home Depot or Lowe's or a Red Wing. They've all said no, to me, I've asked all of them. But anyway, I'll keep, I'll keep trying to make that video eventually show some ROI. Imagine if I was on your team, where we would put Joe we'd be doing a lot of Disney themed songs.

    It is a really good point, though. Because, yes, we do spend a lot of money in different, you know, marketing areas. And it's hard to sometimes put your finger on exactly what made a client look your way or somebody that wants to come and work for you. Because, you know, it might have just been the one thing that caught their eye that you know,

    what I had, and we're going to run out of time, I just have maybe two questions that could take a little bit of time, but from the market, we've talked about your Instagram, I mean, ultimately, because we've been in somewhat similar paths, because I've kind of followed, obviously, we seem to have a similar vibe, which is probably why I reached out to you guys, you were in a small networking group together of some great people. Your platform has basically doubled in the last year. I was curious, your thought process on what do you think has kind of what's called the secret sauce? Is it? What if you had to narrow it down to two or three things? What do you think has been the secret of let's just call it your social media success? And I say success. You know, I think it's successful because you know, you're growing your following, your brand is increasing. And you know, your company is growing because people keep gravitating towards you. And your overall profile has risen quite quite quickly. Just curious, what your what are your thoughts on anything that you're doing or strategizing? Or what it is that is working so well for you and for those listening is are things that they can apply to the whatever business they're in? That would help them as well? Yeah. Well,

    I think first and foremost, when we started this company, that was the whole thing that don't I had talked about, I'm like, I don't want there's different approaches to start any company in any industry. But what's very common with a builder is I'm gonna do you know, one or two houses and, and really show people what I can do and kind of slowly grow your business and slowly hire on a team. And that's a great approach. But one thing that I wanted to make sure is that we came out with a bang, because we're not brand new to the industry. I mean, Joe's had over 30 years of experience. And on top of that, you know, when he talks about hiring a builder, you're not just hiring the builder in the company that's helping you design and all of that, you're hiring all their trade partners. And Joe has had 30 years of creating the perfect network of trade partners. I mean, we have as a small builder, that's how we got through COVID and stuff. I mean, we had all these amazing people that partnered with us so but I wanted to make sure I'm like don't this has to be part of our startup costs. And like we just have to go all in with marketing and understand that how important that is. And Joe's doesn't didn't really have a background in marketing. So at first he's like, Excuse me, how much are we spending because we had hired a branding company we had hired them to, to do all the stuff kind of get us set off on the right path. And I thought that was huge for us. Since then, we have hired we have three full time in house girls that do marketing. Now keeping in mind they all do a little bit of everything else. So one of them is basically our office manager handles events and does marketing more from like, kind of, you know, our paper aspects or signs or anything like that. So that's kind of one side of it. We have another one who really handles all of our branding our image our our social media, really most things that you see is this girl and then we have another one who we've recently brought on to understand like what's all the behind the scenes stuff in marketing like everyone sees a bunch of pretty pictures or fun videos and gosh, they consistent with posting and before I started this company, that's really all I thought it was like hey, if I if we do enough, if we have enough pretty pictures, pretty houses to posts that people will eventually start following and I learned that's not even close to that.

    It's not because it's funny because there's there's people that I have been following for quite some time and their following is exactly the same as it was a couple of years ago and they have gorgeous homes. Yeah, you know, if you you know, forget class or comparing yourself but it's just they're gorgeous and they have it they're not engaging with an audience and they're not I think you mentioned before a little bit Joe just that like if you're not if you're not evolving If you're not really you know if you're not constantly changing and trying to improve yourself, but I think because of how quickly social media strategies change, but also what people are looking for, I think if you don't have a pulse on that, it's pretty easy to just kind of get stagnant

    it is. And what's interesting is most people think when you do a marketing campaign, that you're talking to your clients, so a lot of companies will rate the success of their marketing campaign of like, hey, how many leads did I get from that? And it's actually the world of online is so different. We are marketing, we're doing all of these things for Google. And that's a weird way of thinking about it. Because if I'm marketing with that in mind, and I'm speaking to Google in the way that they want me to, whether it's the behind the scenes, SEO, whether it's the hashtags I'm using, whether it's the consistent posting whether whatever it is, if I am doing that, well, then in turn, that organic presence grows, and now your customers can see you, you're on page one, when they're searching for custom home builders, and still water you're on, you know, popping up to the top of the feed or an Instagram. Most people are really good at reaching their network, or even their friends, friends. But how do you go beyond that? How do you go to people that you have zero connection with? And those are the things that if you can mark it towards Google and understanding all the behind the scenes analytics, that's actually what's going to help you. And so it was just switching my way of thinking because, again, my background in sales and think, can I do an event? How many leads did I get?

    Yeah, yeah.

    It's a different way of thinking.

    Interesting. Last question I have for you is the podcast, you guys have a podcast as well called If These Walls Could Talk, and tell me a little bit about why you started it, who your intended audience is, and just give us an update of how it's going and what you're finding?

    Well, we started the podcast to promote the book that we're writing. So, you know, there's so much to building a house, right? And people don't understand that when they just want to start the process. And we thought it'd be fun to write a book and really walk them through the entire process with, you know, what to look out for pro tips from not only us, but our trades, people in the industry, and really a checklist that they can go by if they're building a house, or, you know, even a builder could look at this and say, Gosh, I never thought of doing it this way, or how to keep track of it. And it's really how we started.

    Yeah. Is it going to be like, tell me, sorry, all these questions now? How are you going to this book? Is it going to be kind of like a how to book for homeowners? Is it Who is the intended audience of the book is it for other builders, other trades people, for those just simply interested, there's so much interest in home building,

    it's funny, it's actually evolved. So initially, it was for builders and and were just very process oriented. So I basically took every part of our process our checklists, and put it together as a book. And then it evolved with like, okay, as you're looking at these builder checklists, like we're using, even if a homeowner wanted this book, and they're looking through it, some of the stuffs not making sense to them. So we actually doubled it up. Okay, now we have a checklist for builders, and now checklists for homeowners side by side. And so when you're going through a framework, here's all the things your builder should be looking for. And here's all the things you should be looking for asking questions, or pro tips. So for example, we put in there, like, every time someone does a frame walk, they are surprised at how small a room feels, right? I mean, it's something everybody in the building industry knows when

    you get your foundation goes in. Oh, yeah. Right. But when you dig the hole, it's like, wow, this thing is huge. Yeah,

    it's a backwards way of thinking today and your drywall goes in, it feels bigger than the furniture goes in, it feels even bigger. It's like, that seems backwards. But it's reality. We every single time, no matter how many times we warn a homeowner, they freak out and like, is this office big enough? Is it even gonna fit my furniture. And we sit like this is exactly the same size as the plan. And we have to walk them through that. So we have little tips and tricks like that. So they can get through a build, but it's grown. Yeah. And

    what I really liked about it is we kind of got the team involved. You know, Daniel has been always telling me well, this isn't obvious to everybody, even to me. You know, I've been in the business for so long that why would you even bring this up? I'm

    I'm pre ordering this book, and I want a signed copy. We don't have enough time to go through all the nuances of it. I would love to hear when it is launched. I'd love to talk to you about it again. Well, yeah. 2420 24. So it's coming out early

    on. So yeah, we're excited and but that really is what our podcast goes through. So season one we had just wrapped up so that was going through pretty much every step of the building process. And every episode ties into some sort of checklist or portion of the book.

    Do you find that as you're talking about it out loud and going through the podcast that you're really making edits? Like oh, we need to add that. Oh, it's got to be this. It's almost like Peer Review live like you guys have heard. I'm not sure how you're writing it. But the fact that you're both talking about I have to imagine that would resonate with me very well. That's a genius way to write a book, by the way, well, and

    I understand now why authors take so long to actually publish because it is always changing. And you've got ideas, so we'd have to set deadlines for ourselves because

    your podcast, your podcast makes so much more sense to me. Now, I didn't know that because when you guys because it's maybe been eight months, nine months a year, how long has the podcast been going on? About a year about a year to close? So almost identical to when we started ours? And I had zero we can talk about mine a lot when I come on, if these walls could talk, but my, I've thought looking on like, okay, because I've listened to many of your episodes. And I'm like, Okay, interesting. It seemed to me that your intended audience not knowing anything about the book that it was for your homeowners, because if I was a homeowner listening to your podcast, like, wow, this is really informative. I'm really be perfect with my, my blue green engineer type. So I'm gonna send him your podcast for sure. Because I don't I'm personally that's not really my skill set. I am. Well, I know enough to be dangerous. I'm probably a little bit more like, Danielle in terms of the sales approach, right? I mean, I know how to build a house probably know more than I think I know. But I'm, that's not really what I'm as passionate or interested about. And so this podcast is much more interested about business tactics and the stories and understanding. So I feel like now, unintentionally, I think our audience is mostly our peers. It's mostly builders, it's tradespeople. And anyone who owns a business or is interested about it, not that my homeowners could listen to it. I'm not sure how much benefit they would get from it in terms of their own house, but maybe I'm wrong. Right?

    Yeah. And I think that's, that was our intention is truly our homeowners is understanding like, Okay, we have all this insight of what to expect during a build. And as much as we can try to tell our homeowners in meetings are emails or documents that we print out for them, we felt like a podcast would be a really good insight to, you know, the good and the bad. I mean, we really open up on some of the challenges that you run through. So that's kind of what season two focuses on now that we've gotten through the book through the checklist. Kay, what are some major questions or pain points or confusions throughout the bill that again, seem obvious to us, because we're around it all the time. But the question comes up all the time. So today, we just did our sighting. And it was like, why is there such an argument between Hardy and LP and society, about that in the history, and it was great, because it's, again, you try so

    you'd bring on an industry professional as like a third person interview, because early on, it was just the two of you now you're starting to bring on bringing

    in a lot of guests right now. I like that. Yeah. And it's really digging into the why of a lot of stuff, too. I mean, I'm a guy who loves to sit down with a codebook at night and just read the code, but because I find it so interesting. Yeah,

    I also would be not interested, you know, why

    are studs 16 on Senator, what we have all these codes that we have to abide by and customers don't understand, oh, is why it has to be a certain way? Well, it's because this is a safety issue. This happens this way. And I find it fascinating. And I think, you know, a lot of homeowners just don't understand there's a lot that goes into this that we don't even have a clue about.

    Right. That's fascinating. Well, we are way past time, so I'm going to wrap it up, which I knew we would because three of us could, we could talk all day. Two questions. One is, how do you how do you guys each like to learn? I mean, as far as continuing education, um, we know Joe falls asleep or doesn't fall asleep reading his codebook. So if you fall asleep, you read a shoot him up action book, I guess or fiction? How about you, Daniel.

    I mean, it's a combination. I love going to like seminars, or traveling. And really, it's been in it. So like, I love to learn about the industry, because I'm not a builder. I want to be I want to educate myself on all that goes into all of our products and stuff. So I love like walking through our trades warehouse and where everything's created. So for me, it's really in person and hands on. What about you, Joe? How do you learn?

    Well, I said, like, you know, interested in reading the code book, stuff like that. I do like live classes as well. But really my favorite thing to do is get out in the in the market and look at what other builders are doing what's new in the market. There's things are changing so fast. Somebody's always got a better idea. And I just if I find one nugget and when I'm walking through a house, it's gold.

    Yep. I agree. I mean, if you're looking for something, I mean, it's kind of like, you know, what did they say imitation is the best form of a compliment. Yeah, along those lines, right. So I think that's true. What do you guys do for fun when you're outside of work?

    Well, I've got two young kids a 13 and a nine year old so I'm usually on a lacrosse field watching a tournament Yeah, or yeah, just downtown Stillwater. I live in Stillwater. So I think that is like the best town in the world, which is why I live there. So you'd see me and my husband all the time down there at different restaurants are

    walking. Yeah, it's very, very charming.

    Yeah, for me, I've got five grandkids already so they keep me pretty busy. But I think my favorite thing to do is What I call travel with a purpose. You know, that could be traveling to a city that I want to check out their baseball stadium or, you know, a destination marathon or something like that, or I have a purpose to go to a place that I would probably never

    go to otherwise, are you running the marathon?

    I don't have anything signed up. But you know, I've done I've done the Great Wall marathon in China. I've done some pretty interesting ones. Oh, cool. You know, you just go to China to go to China necessarily. But I love having a purpose. For travel.

    We it's funny, you say that we just last weekend. We just got back. My wife and I and my sister in law, we brought the whole family out to Whitefish, Montana. And we ran. We've been training all summer for 50k trail race. So 32 miles up a mountain that I grew up skiing on. And so but now after we did it, we had so much fun. It's like, Honey, I just want to sign up for races, like in other parts of the world and country just so we have a reason to go there in that cabin event. And then we of course, love to travel to Yeah, she seemed pretty open to that need to talk. I agree. Great. Wha, I have to work on that one. And then last thing, I think this I might know the answer. This is what are you most excited for? That's coming up here and 24? Sounds like the book. I know. That's what I'm excited for now?

    Well, what I'm most excited for is we're going to have our first home and the artisan Home Tour.

    Nice. It's been would that be the spring in June of 21? Yeah,

    it's been a big dream of ours for two things is to be one of the dream homes and the Parade of Homes, which we were last spring. So the artisan has been on our radar. And we're so excited. We're with the homeowner that paired perfectly with our style. And we're really excited to showcase it.

    Perfect. All right. So our listeners can find you at style and structure. And obviously, we'll have everything in the show notes. Thank you very much for coming on.

    Thanks for having us.

    A lot of fun. Yeah, and I guess I should probably do a plug here for our show. We have our first or second live event show here coming up on the 14th of November at the lowlands. And so I think you guys may or may not be attending as well, so people can meet you in person if they want to come there as well. And join your team and become a designer or book writer or whatever they are going to do for you guys. But we're going to be interviewing Alex louch. And I'll have Jordan Diorio as a co host and so it'll be kind of a networking event. And I don't think it's meant to the old ones. They've had a few networking events there for some of the building that's been going around. It's it's a really cool spot. So it's a good one. So hope to see you there. And thanks again for listening to the careers builder podcast. Thanks, guys. Thank you. Alright, let's add this Records.

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