Episode 35 - James Vagle dives into Minnesota Housing Shortage and Efforts to Increase Affordability & Workforce

Written By LAB MPLS

Episode #35 | James Vagle | Minnesota Housing Shortage

James Vagle, CEO of Housing First Minnesota, discusses the state’s shortage of 60,000-90,000 housing units with builder Mark Williams. Vagle explains how modernizing zoning regulations and increasing land supply could help address high construction costs and the shortage. He also outlines Housing First Minnesota’s efforts to promote careers in the trades and increase awareness of opportunities in the industry.

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About James Vagle

As the CEO of Housing First Minnesota, James Vagle brings over two decades of success navigating the convergence of housing and public affairs. Responsible for all facets of the organization, James drives its mission of homeownership opportunities for all Minnesotans. He is the architect of Housing First’s emergence as the state’s leading voice for housing, and now extends strategic vision and leadership to all Housing First programs including its nation-leading home tours, Minnesota’s Green Path, as well as philanthropic work through the Housing First Minnesota Foundation and thought leadership through the Housing Affordability Institute.

James holds a bachelor’s degree in political science from the University of Minnesota and is a veteran of the U.S. Navy.

Resources

  • We're happy to announce our second live event this year. On Tuesday, the 14th of November. We're going to be hosting Alex Lelouch from Lelouch audio. Also the owner of the lowlands new wedding Event Center in St. Paul Jordan DiIorio will join me as a co host for the first time. She is the podcast host of the refund. And we're gonna ask Alex all kinds of questions about being a serial entrepreneur, his immigration story to the United States as well as starting two businesses, and running both of them. So if you're interested in all things business, as well as a networking event within the construction industry, please join us that night. Again, that's the 14th of November. All details can be found at curious builder podcast.com. This episode is brought to you by the scout guide, Minneapolis. The Scout Guide is a curated guide of Twin Cities, how to spots companies, people, venues, and events focusing on all things local and small business. When you pick up their magazine, it just feels different. You open up the ads and they're not just you know the team in front of the building with a you know your normal photo as vibrant, it's unique that might even be set in a completely unusual setting something that catches your eye and not only tells the story in a picture, but lets you know that that's a company that you want to go visit. Look for something different this year, pick up the scout guide, you won't be disappointed. And if you're looking for advertising, I'd highly recommend it. They have an incredible social push. One thing that I was really interested in is that they will go to your events they will go to your place of business, they will ask you questions that they then post on their feeds and they have a quite a following find them on social media platforms at the scout guide Minneapolis,

    Minnesota is second only to St. Petersburg, Russia in terms of it gets really hot in the summer and really cold in the winter you and your cohort builders are pulling off is quite something to build a home that is livable and comfortable in really hot summers and really cold winters and to beautiful transition seasons.

    Welcome to curious better Podcast. I'm Mark Williams, your host today I am joined by James Loggly. Yes, we got a green light on that one. And he is the CEO of Housing First Minnesota. Welcome, James. Thanks for coming into our studio.

    Great pleasure to be here.

    You are our first guest in our new space. So we are now relocated in the world headquarters of Marquis looms, custom homes and the curious builder podcast in Excelsior. And so yeah, that's our new digs. We've got our video on YouTube, as well as our website. But most of us are probably going to listen on the podcast. So cool. Honored to be here. It

    looks great.

    Let's let's start a little bit. For those that don't know you outside of Minnesota. I mean, obviously in Minnesota, if you don't know, James, you have been hiding under a rock. You're very well on the public scene, especially with the housing first but just give us a little brief intro of your history. I actually don't know some of your history before he came onto the scene with Minnesota or Housing First Minnesota. Yeah, but then we'll dive in a little bit to what housing first does for all the Builders here in Minnesota.

    Yeah, you bet. So born and raised in Northwest Minnesota, grew up in Manila and graduated from Morehead High School, as adventurous, headed out to the Navy for four years came back to the University of Minnesota. worked briefly for Governor Ventura did a you're on his staff.

    Is that because you had the Navy? The Navy stuff? Now? You see it wasn't he wasn't

    Navy SEAL? Yeah. And we actually had some fun, you know, talking about Navy stories, no, just sort of happened. I was in college at the time, in turn, took a role there. And through that network, a former colleague, and Governor Ventura staff got a job with the Builders Association of Minnesota. So I ended up there in an advocacy role. And then four years later to Batsi, which is the Builders Association in the Twin Cities before we were Housing First Minnesota, and I'm now on year 18. With Housing First Minnesota. So it's been you've been there 18 months, 18 years, it goes so quickly. A short 18

    Wow, that's so I've been building for 19 and a half years. I didn't realize you were there that long. Yeah. Because you're not the CEO. And David was there before you what what were some of your career paths within Betsy and then Housing First for your CEO position. So

    I worked for 1234 CEOs before me. So the last year of Bob Hansen, who was there 28 years. So I was there 2006 Bob's final year and was there in sort of a manager level advocacy role, and over the years, ascended to the Vice President of advocacy and sort of survived the crash. Okay, as you will work. Yeah.

    I started so I started in 2005. So I didn't really know Bob. I mean, I knew his reputation. Yeah, name. Yeah. And I actually didn't even know he was the CEO. I mean, I've seen him his lifetime achievement awards and things like that. But I guess I know, I missed out on the fact that he was obviously president before that was probably my dad's generation

    very much so and you know, Bob was part of the merger. So so the history of the organization is of course there was a St. Paul and Minneapolis. There was a merger in the early 90s Bob saw that through and I came on board at the very end of Bob's tenure, made it through the crash. And then over the last 1012 years, you know, built the what we know as our advocacy program today. legislative regulatory advocacy at sort of all government levels or legal program or research program, and then certainly the talented team that's there. Now, I was

    incredible to me our kind of the, the the envy of the rest of the country. Yeah, no, I'm drinking the Kool Aid, because I'm from Minnesota, and I, but I know I'm yeah, we're celebrating our 75th anniversary this year. Yes. And I know it's the oldest in the country. And it's just kind of amazing as other states. I've talked to other builders now as part of my outreach, both on the podcast, but just in general, as my network has expanded. It's amazing to me how many states have zero Home Tour presence.

    It is. It's remarkable. And we spent a lot of time so yes, it's the 75th anniversary of the Parade of Homes in 1948. In the fall was the first ever they called it the trend home in Edina. And here we are 75 years later, and we're just wrapping up, we're up for a deadline, it's going to be an outstanding tour. And there's something unique in Minnesota, and I'm not sure what it is. And I think even you know my predecessor going way back into the 40s and 50s. They were shocked when it worked. Because we you know started as sort of a single how many Dinah's then we said let's do a several homes on a block. And then we took a big swing and said, What about scattered site? What if we in Hugo and I forget what some of the other cities were, but you can imagine New Brighton perhaps. And it worked. And we were getting 1000s of visits in these far flung at the time suburbs. And there was just something about Minnesota, there's something about sort of our civic participation, you know, some type of social contract, I've had somebody telling me Minnesotans have interest, and we sort of like to understand our community better. And the Parade of Homes was one of those vehicles. And I think there's something to that.

    I mean, I remember my dad built homes for 30 years. So he was mid 70s to like 2000 I think 2001 He retired somewhere in that timeframe. And I remember, I never went but I remember my sister who's couple years younger than I would would go to like the parade gala is what we call it the big night now, the Reggie Awards and the trilliums. And I remember one year she went up there to collect a couple of wars that dad won, in fact, hormones in the wall in the office here. And I think one of the builders goes, Man, that competition keeps getting younger and younger. She was like eight years old at the time. And dad just you know, center up there. So to this day, my sister often she lives in Colorado. Now she's a hydrologist. But she often says, hey, just remember who won the first builder award? Actually, it was her not you. Yeah, but I think what I'm where I'm going with this, is it the family aspect? Not only obviously homeownership is you know, you raise your home, the American Dream is homeownership. We'll talk about that a little bit later in the podcast, but specifically to the parade. I mean, I just grew up not only the son of a builder, but even on the years that he's retired before I started building, I still went to all the great homes, because I just I mean, that's just what you do not like you go to the state fair. And you know, you, you do these things that become kind of iconic to Minnesota. And then to find out that a lot of states don't even have this is kind of just like earth shattering

    Well, in my peers around the country. Now some of them have larger parades. But what they marvel at is our ability to do 13 counties, hundreds of homes. I mean, we'll have over 350 homes this fall. We've had at our high point 1200 homes, I What was that? 2007 Yeah, I've right before the number of being like five, six, and I didn't realize it was 1200 1200 was our was our it was our peak. And and obviously, there's been so much resettling, and there's been some contraction and all the merger and acquisition activity in the industry. But the point holds that there's something about our community that allows us, you know, an incredible platform, and obviously you and your your family and all the legacy builders that have come into this market are committed. So it's really fun, very rewarding. Do

    you think I mean, that started way before there even was such a thing as a national builder? Right. 1948? Yeah, way before that. What year? Did national builders kind of come on the scene is, as I recall, that's probably guests like, early 90s. Is that Is that about? Right? I

    believe so. I mean, it was certainly before my time, you know, when I came into the Builders Association in 2001. So yeah, I think in the 90s, you began to see those market shifts.

    The reason I'm bringing it up is I think Minnesota had a large collection. I think it's, I assume it's because of our demographics, right? I mean, I'm Scandinavia and mud, if you will, so I can say this, right. I mean, a lot of our heritage is German and Swedish and Norwegian, a lot of it seemed like a lot of that craftsmanship came down through Canada Kingdom settled in Minnesota. I just feel like our trim work or our our commitment to those trades seems to mimic a lot of Scandinavian values. I could be wrong. That could be my own bias and the people that I'm surrounded by, but just anecdotally, as I look around, I see some of that. Now. They're third fourth generation, you know, and I see it continuing on this care. I'm curious of how that plays across the other parts of the country and why build Getting custom homes was such a like, it seems like National builders took a long time to get to Minnesota. And I don't know if that's because there were so many custom builders that they couldn't pry it out of their market share. And your thoughts on that? Yeah,

    it's a great question. And I've talked to many of our national builders, you know about this. I mean, there's a couple of factors. One is our land availability. And so that actually gets I'm sure, we'll talk some regulatory impacts and some of the uniqueness of Minnesota. But one of the things that makes us unique is that we have an urban services area, they call it the Musa line. And it's, it's aligned with sewer and water infrastructure. And we've always supported smart infrastructure. But what when you create a line, what's inside the line, obviously becomes more scarce in that spike land supply. And I think a lot of national builders as they surveyed in the 80s, and 90s, metro areas, our land costs were higher, and that had an impact. I do think there was a strong legacy of local regional builders, and we've heard from national builders and others, the Parade of Homes was a big factor to enter in the success to come here or kept them away. Because the brand was so strong, it didn't keep them away. What what I've heard them, you know, over the years, sort of, you know, anecdotally say it helped our regional builders tremendously. The marketing platform has a, I don't want to call it an evening effect. But it does something that allows, you know, sort of competition to rise with the parade brand, which we're very proud of. And interestingly, our national builders are major fans at the Parade of Homes. So they when they get here, it's always a shock, like, wait a minute, so everybody does this parade. And they've got, you know, their their corporate headquarters in their connections. And over time, I think they went over, you know, sort of their their bosses and their infrastructure that says, There's something really unique about the Parade of Homes. And it's a it's a big part of every builder, mid large, small, the Parade of Homes as part of their marketing.

    I think I'm just thinking out loud about this right now. Like, I think we've said, the Parade of Homes, so many times that I sort of forget about the word parade. And I'm just thinking right now being like a 10 year old kid sitting on the curb at Fourth of July, which obviously just happened. Yep. And you know, you've got these different city parades, and everyone has a different float, that could be the four H club that could be VFW, it could be whoever, right, in in some ways that model is essentially what except the bracing of the homes are on rollers moving around the town. Right, right. But it's kind of a brilliant concept that what I always appreciate about it is like, you know, come to my home, come to one of my competitors homes, but really, I'm such a fan of our industry. Like I want you to see all the homes because I would contend that, at the end of the day, people prices, we'll get into that later price is really important. But let's just say I'm your builder, let's say a strata. And let's just say there's, for ease of number, let's say there's five to 10 builders that could could build what I build or for I don't know, the actual number, let's just use that, for example. And the point of it is, is that at the end of day, if you're comparing apples to apples do a little bit like car shopping, the pricing should actually be if we're bidding the exact same thing should be kind of the same. So it's really more about who do you want to work with? What do you want to spend the next a year two years of your life, at least for the homes that I build? Yeah, from a design. And then and then of course warranty after that 10 years in our market? Yeah. So So price was super important as a delineating factor in the very beginning, ultimately becomes something that I try to push aside because it's more about a relationship. And I think the parade I often talk about, so I have people that call me all the time, you know, whether it's on Google or whatever, and they'll say, Hey, we're looking to build a home and they will be outside my price point or below my price, or whatever it is, I'll just say I can't build it. But I'll tell you what, you're in luck. The Parade of Homes is coming up this September, like it is every year. And like clockwork, and I'll say I don't have a home, but there's going to be 400 homes on tour, I would highly encourage you to go look at all these homes, find people that are in your price point, then go to five or six of those homes, interview them at that it's like a live interaction. It is like your you know, it's like you're you're bidding a live auction, essentially, you can and then I can't tell you how many times we've won a bid or gotten the relationship that somebody met us at the parade that years later, they came back and they said Do you know why I chose you? And I said no. They said we were young. Actually I'm building our house right now. They're down in Rochester, which we don't normally build that we're opening up down there if anyone's listening. So anyway, the point is, is they said we went we were very young, we don't have a lot of builders, most people dismissed us because we can't afford the home at that time. They said you came up to us. You shook our hands. You engaged with us. The house was full of a hundreds of people. You gave us four or five minutes you add you're very personable. And that was it. And like How simple is that that was just giving them time. I've often thought about that. Like what the parade allows you to do is like an open house at graduation. It allows you to have this human to human interaction. So you're not a widget. You're a human being that gets to demonstrate your craft and for the for the parade. I applaud them for this creation. It's amazing.

    It's amazing. And think about it from sort of the shopper the tour goer. Some folks don't Want to set up a one on one appointment with you just for a whole bunch of reasons they they want to come in and in a crowd. And if they want to break away, it's very clear I've been in your homes, who you are, who your team is, they can make an introduction, but but the parade has got the best of all worlds. You can connect directly with builders, or you can more anonymously low pressure shop. People love it. And wherever you are, how many times do we hear have I heard over my career? I came in to just be inspired. I wanted to look at wallpaper. I wanted to look at finishes and just get an idea for my own home. Well, life changes quickly. And three, four years isn't that long. And next thing you know, they're now a prospect. And I think the prayed has had a tremendous, I mean, 75 years, and we have several builders, we've talked to it. So I've built 1234 homes for the same family over a lifetime. That's pretty extreme. I don't know if you have any, any repeat of

    a couple that are too young. I haven't I'm so I'm 42. I've been building for 19 years. So I mean, just playing some statistics here. By the if I build, let's say for 40 years, I would expect we'll get a few in the three to four range. Yes, it's pretty uncommon. I don't know what other builders say. And it depends a little bit on your price point too. Because when I was first building homes, most of my homes Granted it was 20 years ago. So pricing in general was less obviously, but like you were I was probably in the 500 to 700 range. And you know, now those are my remodel ranges. Right. You know, now most of my new homes is probably you know, 1314 to 5 million, you know, whatever. And so I've also changed what I am as well on top of that, because I've now the national builders, that I was always better at custom for myself, personally. Yes. And so I want to do higher quality, more detailed, more customization. I mean, now, a lot of the nationals are building homes, well above a million dollars. If you had asked me that 1015 years ago, I would have been like, You're crazy. Because sometimes people say like, Hey, could you go and build homes at four or 500,000? I personally can't. And we're gonna speak about that later in the podcast about some cost, and why we need affordable housing. It's just, that's not my personal skill set or interest. I'm a big fan of it, and we need it. And I love the national builders and we need them because we need, you know, affordability in the market. But I'm also just amazed at their range. I think their their, their range is way bigger than my range.

    It is well, so it's well said. I mean, obviously, I'm the CEO at Housing First we are a big tent, we value and respect the challenges that every segment including remodeling at all levels, I mean, it's a different challenge to build that scale. $400,000 Homes is harder than it's ever been. So I'm like you I celebrate our mid and large volume builders that are able to accomplish that that is a tremendous high wire. Like you you are presented with cheer, you know, sort of sight challenges, budget, custom windows, you know, proximity to water, those challenges are major for you. And so we are a big industry that solving all types of challenges. But yeah, look forward to talking about the affordability because it's a big deal.

    Yeah, we'll talk about that in a minute. Let's, let's go back for just one second and talk a little bit about the things especially for those outside Minnesota. What it is that housing first does, and I'll just tip off a couple of high ones like, obviously, I've gotten my continuing education has gone through there. So a lot of my continuing ed credits goes through you guys. Obviously a lot of our networking and consoles being involved in the community, I sit on a couple of different boards. So I can be part of some of the change, which I feel very, very empowering. And also, I wish I had started that earlier in my career Wendy Danks actually invited me is and she's like, Hey, we need some young blood one should come on. And I was like, Oh, this is great. I had no idea what it was right. And then before you know it, you're like, Oh, now I see why it's important to be involved. So those listening, I guess one of the biggest things I was for an extreme extrovert, I was very late to the game for networking. business wise, I was had a large friend group, but I was like, I didn't realize how much I love our industry and love our other builders and trade partners. And I just love being around their energy, and in how to be a part of that helped us grow our overall community, because it may not be right for me. But it might be right for somebody else. And I often think of our ecosystem as the ocean. And I just I'm a diver. So I love the ocean in general. And but I just think of like, anywhere from like algae to the great white sharks to blue whales, you need a complete spectrum of a healthy ecosystem. And I think homebuilding is the same way you need everything working. And if one segment is too powerful or too weak, the entire ecosystem is affected.

    Absolutely. No, it's interesting. So Housing First, I always describe it. As you know, there are three legs to the stool. The first you mentioned are connections. We communicate, we educate, we've got all sorts of you know, sort of the standard fair trade organization, elements. Green Building, like I mentioned, that's one second is where the industry advocate where the voice we're before the legislature, City Hall. We're involved in research activities. We're trying to shape the housing discussion through media relationships, issue campaigns, and then the third we've talked about Our home tours, we produce six home tours throughout the year. We're basically in consistent now Home Tour mode throughout the year, with two parades to remodel or showcase to artists and home tours first fall Home Tour starts. Yeah,

    I've got here in October had a remodel in that one. So I'm excited to Yeah, that from a timing perspective, very excited. I

    believe we are at 21 entries, which is just spectacular. And this is our, you know, our first run. So really excited to to look at that season. I think that's going to be cool. But yeah, Housing First, Minnesota is pretty unique around the country, we're humbled by that. And I certainly, you know, we talked about my predecessors, I stand on their shoulders, this goes way back, like we said, there was some real strong vision. And I think Minnesota, you know, when you look at the 40s 50s, and 60s, there was a lot going on here, a lot of you know, really, you know, a constellation of of positive, you know, fortune 500, companies started launched, moved here growing, and we grew with that you talk about an ecosystem, you can't have more fortune 500 companies per capita, without a housing market with some choices. And we were able to do that. And I think the parade was a big part of that,

    ya know, it's a powerful, I think, decision tool for people when they decide what they want. I also think, too, I was just talking to actually a marketing company today. And I think as I've talked to other builders around the country, I think builders, I'm not gonna say they have more power, I think they have more influence on the building of a home versus other states. And what I mean by that is, I think like what I've talked about, let's say builders in Washington, or builders in California, or, you know, Texas or New York, a lot of times people go to an architect first, or a designer. And I'm not saying that they don't do that here. But I think from a percentage standpoint, I think the parade has shifted the power dynamic a lot to the builders, because if you look at the tours, I mean, and it's not that their homes are gorgeous, like the AE two or the homes are incredible, like I'm a huge fan of architecture, but their tours, like two days, it's not even you can't even compare it. It's like the NFL versus like peewee football. And I mean that without any disrespect, right? I only mean in this in the terms of the amount of organization 75 years of, of building blocks, you've, we've created this infrastructure that really empowers builders. And again, having only grown up here, I just thought that's how it was everywhere. And so as you come to find out, it's a pretty rare and special thing it is and it should be celebrated. It is, ya

    know, the your, what you're talking about is, you know, if you consider brand as a collection of perceptions, the parade brand has been developed over 75 years and those interactions that you've had, and I've had, and I'm, I was a college student, and ended up on the Parade of Homes with my parents when they were in town when I was going to the EU, and I had no idea that I'd ever be involved in the industry, or certainly leading the organization, but it had that type of pay, there's homes that you can just visit. So just even to be inspired. And then just you know, the other piece, I think that that you know this firsthand, the sales, you know, the prospecting process, the parade is a part of that. I've spoken to builders at trade partner meetings, and when they describe their sales process to Parade of Homes is a pillar of it. That's pretty rare and special. So that's also for our board of directors for our, you know, exceptionally talented staff. That's a big responsibility. And we're already starting to talk what are the next 75 years looking like, what is technology? How is community? How is in person gathering? How do we, you know, continue to do what we've done since 1948. So one sighting,

    I think it's impressive to I mean, I saw you on the artisan tour, which was just in June, yes. Do you and your wife came out? I think that anytime, I think when you have a CEO of a company, and really anybody because there's a number of staff that it's not just because you're associated with it, I mean, obviously Tom proviruses out who's Yeah, it was artists and and in general, but we see a lot of people that, yes, your job is in the homes, but also sometimes I think I may even saw you on a weekend. And the point of it is is like anytime you have the CEO of a company out making the rounds, it there is a relationship standpoint that says like, I see you I feel supported, and it's a community that that everyone feels embraced by and you can't fake that, like that's real. You can't You know, I mean? Yeah, sure, you can walk around and you know, press bombs and kiss babies, like they say the stereotypical go politician, but you know, real conversation like it's, you wouldn't still be in this industry if you didn't love it. And I think it starts to grow on you. And then these relationships become so deep, that it's like, it's almost inescapable. It's like the whirlpool of building like, I actually knew as a kid, the one thing I didn't want to do was be a builder. And my mom wasn't your designer, because that's what they did Famous last words. Yeah. And then they retired and like five years later is like, Hmm, maybe I should build a house.

    And here we are, or we are. Well, it's funny. You say that our team and housing first and we have you know, 23 staff and, and they're on every tour, and it's just a standard. We started last fall, and I sat with the team and a meeting and so I think we should all go to for parade homes. And we got a Google Doc and we signed add up, say loved it. And the builders loved it. Next thing you know, our content team is like, why don't you take you know, a snapshot at a selfie, a picture of the home, something that inspires you. And next thing you know, that Whirlpool that you described is moving. And we're a better staff at housing first, because we're better connected not only to you and your team, but your customers. I went every weekend of the parade in the spring. And I just walked the edge of the crowd. And that because I feel like you know, if we're planning our future, what what happens when people are in your home? It's fun to watch. People are universally happy. They're inspired. They're whispering or snapping their phone, in every rooms. It's cool,

    isn't it laughable? It used to be back, let's say 1015 years ago, and there's still some builders that do this. I

    don't know. No cameras. Yeah, it's like, what are you doing? It's

    2023. You want as many people to take photos and videos as possible. And like this idea that you have something and I someone else mentioned this, and if he mentioned that a lot, but I like it, but you know, are you operating out of scarcity or abundance? And you know, going back to the relationship thing, like if you're gonna choose me, or, like you're just sharing an idea, most of the ideas that we get it original thought is pretty rare. It's essentially a to me a collaboration of a bunch of ideas that then produces something, and why not share it? And

    it's, there's been such a change. It's funny, you mentioned this, we did research coming out of the crash. So probably 2012. And one of the terms that the outside firm that we used came back with is radical transparency. And as an industry, it's funny, you mentioned this, we were a bit more. I don't think we're opaque we were just maybe guarded with with some of you know, our our processes and our pricing and what was happening, you know, beyond the homebuilding industry, just in general, with food labeling and calorie counts. And just the internet changed the way we acquire information, obviously. And as a home building industry, I think we're you know, we're catching up by saying show people it's in the wall cavity. What does spray foam look like? Why does it cost more than, you know, an alternative? And let's have that conversation. People want to geek out, but they want to see the home and it's just we are so you know, ready? For we're photo ready?

    Oh, for sure. I think and you're talking about process photos, too. I also think it I went to this collaboration of a bunch of builders. Last year, I'll set the state and one of the themes was collaboration over competition. And when we came back here, and actually Morgan Molitor from construction to style shout out to her but you know, she and I decided because they had these things called builder. 20s. Right. Yes, yeah. idea that and I think it was originated. I don't know how many years ago, let's just say 20. And the idea was like, Hey, I you know, if you and James and I are competing in the same market, you know, we want to we want to exchange information, but maybe not too much. Right? You know, with that thought. And so then you go to IRS, your state, you'd sign a nondisclosure, you dive into your books, your profitability, all these things. And it's great to steal wonderful, I'm trying to be in one, actually. But when we came back here, I'm like, There's nothing for me to hide. So we we actually formed our own. We call it the s seven. We picked each person, we had three people that started it. And we essentially picked three people that we wanted on the on the as builders, and we just formed our own group. No, we didn't make anybody signed anything. The idea is just like, if you have a question, just call each other. So the other day, you know, Joe Braun, one of the corners of style and structure, I just love him and Danielle, and so like, I call them all the builders like, Hey, I'm dealing with this, what do you think about this, I would do this. It's just such a great community to basically just ask those questions, because why? Why do we feel like we can't share? And why can we ask for help? And I think, yeah, I think that I think this generation is radically changing building, at least as I know it. And I'm really happy to be kind of in the middle of because I just love, I love the energy that it produces.

    I do too. And I feel like if there's been sort of a persistent criticism over my career in the public affairs space, representing this industry is that we haven't done enough in the innovation and tech. And that, you know, essentially, you build them the same way you did in the 50s. To an extent that's true. To an extent, that's what the customers want to so there's all this interesting, you know, modular construction and 3d printing, and how is technology changing? And how much do you share about sort of what goes in, you know, to homebuilding? You know, those are good questions for us to have. And I do think the spirit of innovation is coming very quickly. I'm proud of our industry, I think we've really, really stepped up over the last decade,

    I think, specifically, the engine of the Instagram, and I use Instagram or could be any other photo sharing site. But that in particular, allows you to see what other people are putting out there. It inspires. I mean, I use it not from an envy standpoint, but like, ooh, that's cool. I want to try that. Or you get all these ideas. Plus your clients are bringing in these ideas to write often have a video that I'll post in a client I'm building for will say hey, can we putting that in my house like they might not even know and like, so you get all this ideas coming together very quickly, very rapidly. And so you get a lot of times where people are saying how do you do that? You know, how do I do that? So I think anyway, that pushes things up much quicker, much faster.

    I think so too. And I would not underestimate the public's appetite for more information. I think it's, it's as much as you're able to give. And I think that's to our advantage. I really do. I think when we think about as an industry, if I come to you, and I'm looking at at buying an existing home or a newly built home, there are some built in advantage to what we do. There is a transparency that you can share when you're in a home that was built 90 years ago, there's questions that you can answer in a new build, that really are not as easy to answer in an older home. Now, there's remodeling and that's sort of the, you know, sort of that mid speed as well, that says, Look, you know, remodeling location, good bones home, but I think, you know, what we've seen in research over and over again, is more information is better. Speaking of more information,

    I think, just like the push in general for the country, but Minnesota in general, in terms of like energy production, cost savings, we're gonna go into a little bit like some of the higher scores for those that are listening. It's an Energy Report, but you had mentioned something earlier that made Minnesota special, I think our climate has actually been advantageous to us. Because we it gets negative 20, negative 30. In the winter, like we've had to build to a much more difficult stringent code than other parts of the country. How do you think that's helped us in terms of being more on the forefront of innovation?

    We build the best homes in the country, by HERS index at scale. So there's, I think it's Vermont was an outlier. They had like 60 homes in in the most recent year. And I think they were slightly more efficient than we are, which is to say the HERS index is like golf, the lower you score, the better.

    And for those listening to her scores, essentially, zero would be a net zero house, your harangue would produce and consume the same amount of energy. It's net neutral, and 100. would be I don't know, a convertible. I mean, yeah, again, just there's no roof on it. Right? Correct. And so a home that what is our average now in Venice, so our average,

    I believe, and certainly Tom Garrison, our team would have the precise we're in the low 50s, High 40s, which is outstanding, which is number one at scale in the country. So it's funny, and this is anecdotal. But I remember years ago, when I was, you know, lobbying and working on the energy code, we had an expert approach the Dyess and Intel the committee that was overseeing the technical group, Minnesota is second only to St. Petersburg, Russia in terms of it gets really hot in the summer and really cold in the winter. Our Delta, there's it's funny, and I suppose it's a it's 100 Plus Fahrenheit degrees for sure. Right? I mean, it's nothing for us to go 10 below, right? And to be you know, 90 Plus, yep. So MIT it

    is, as we're well celebrated for and this summer. Yeah, as the humidity can really make it

    Yeah, can can make a difference. But when you think about what you and your cohort of builders are pulling off is, is quite something to build a home that is livable and comfortable, in really hot summers and really cold winters and two beautiful transition seasons. I think it's made us better builders. And you mentioned some of the you know, regional national builders I also think you know, that type of building is a challenge. I think you know, there are different challenges in some of the you know, Southern markets, but they don't have to insulate and and they don't have the footings and frost lines and some of the things that you have to deal with and you think nothing of it.

    Right now. They have termites and snakes and another set of problems. That's this episode is brought to you by adaptive adaptive is an AI technology that we use for all our cash flow management. If you're in construction, you know how difficult this is. The days of importing all your invoices cost coding them asking 10 people in your office where they get coded is this job approved is this invoice approved, making notes all that is now done through AI, your invoices get automatically uploaded. After that all you have to do is cross check its accuracy per the jobs. This is now saving us hours per job per month because with a click of a button, you can now have the job process automated which has been a complete game changer. On top of that it's going to track your lien waivers, as well as your certificates of insurance, making sure that everyone is in compliance before their bills are paid. This is saving us hours and hours per job per month all with a click of a button. If you want to know more check out adaptive dot build. Additionally, we interviewed Matt Covanta on episode 15 of the curious builder podcast. You can find out more about it on our website as well at the curious builder podcast.com. This episode is brought to you by peloton Northland for 19 half years I've been building homes and 95% of all my homes have used Pella windows. I couldn't be happier to call them a partner in our builds and our remodels. Whether you're an architect, a designer or a remodeler, I'd highly recommend Pella windows. They can fit old homes, new homes, reclaimed commercial and really everything in between. Pella is a company that we trust and that we recommend to our clients. Additionally, you Management Peter and N have just been absolutely fantastic people to work with as well as mentors to me personally. So when it comes time to look for a window, I'd highly recommend Pella windows. Find more at Pella northland.com. Also, if you're interested, you can hear episode one where I interview Peter and Ed together for a great lesson on business. And Pella windows is funny, I have small kids, and I've often remember we saw snake the other day, and my little one was like, you know, what about that? Do you see that? And building I'm like, no wonder reasons why I love Minnesota. There's nothing poisonous that lives here basic is too cold, they'll die. I think in the southern part of the states, we might have a few poisonous things. Yeah, in general is too cold.

    Yes, we we definitely. That's one of the upsides. But yeah, I mean, you're right, the the quality of construction, and that gets lost sometimes it's it's one of the things that the parade when I you know, kind of mentioned some of the, you know, some of the tech and some of the, you know, interesting elements of what's behind the walls and in the window quality. We're also I mean, the windows legacy here, we're just amazing.

    I feel like we're so or I am as a builder. I'm so attuned to moisture. Yeah, because that is my number one. You know, the enemy. That's your nemesis. That's my nemesis. That's Darth Vader. So I mean, moisture comes in all forms of content. But I've sort of been awakened to some of the science. I'm not a total science guy. But I, I need to know enough of it to for my clients, when they ask questions, I essentially have people on our team or consultants that we use, you know, depending on where people want to go with some of their, you know, green energy initiatives. But it is kind of interesting, even our home at baseline is way more energy efficient than most of the country, most of the homes in the country, as you would say it. And so when people want to further the envelope, and I'm all for it, it ends up starting, there's this cost curve that starts to and we often use this analogy that are you a green battery, or a like a green initiative and wife mean by that is like does the does the money that you would the investment that you put into your home? Do you want to receive a return on that? That's a greenback meaning like if this makes financial sense to let's say, put a solar array on or geothermal or whatever it is that you're trying to chase this lowers score? Or do you just so believe in what you're doing that while money is important, you want to invest beyond what the payback is, in a short term, because you believe in this longer term. And where I'm going with this is the you know, the European model is different than the United States. I mean, we we've moved a lot more jobs, we're a lot we have a lot more land, obviously. So we move a lot more homes, you might know how often the average family moves. But like in Europe, they're thinking about this generally, generationally, right, triple pane windows, you know, extreme commitment to quality, because they're not only building it for themselves, they're building it for their grandchildren. That is a totally different mindset. And that's cultural. I don't I'm not saying that, you know, we need to build like that. But it is sort of when I heard that recently, I was like, that's, I had not considered that before. Any thoughts on how we view that how often people move, you know, kind of in the normal American cycle?

    Yeah, it was. So it was seven years pre crash? I believe it's, it's increased, not substantially, but but it has increased and it is yeah, we're, it's nothing like I said, I do know of one builder that has four builds, now one of them is away calm, just kind of getting back to it. But yeah, I think there is a more nimble culture here than then that maybe some of those European markets,

    and there's pros, because we just have to navigate it, right? So we do, because sometimes you get a lot of pressure in when you read the press, like, hey, you need to do this with your home screen, you do that. But at the end of day, we also, you know, at center earlier, free market, like I have to build what my client wants. And and I sometimes tell people that aren't educated, like let's say you have this beautiful home in the tour, or maybe have a home in the tour. That's not what you would like as a brand. And I again mean this with no disrespect like that client, it's hard to say which client was more happier, you don't know you weren't part of the process. What if the client says, hey, I want to poke it out house with purple window, you just don't know. And so I think sometimes I heard something recently that I really, like, don't judge me by my best work. Don't judge me by my worst work. judge me by what I do in between consistently.

    I like that's beautiful. Well, I would just say, you know, it's interesting, you're mentioning sort of, you know, customer, there's obviously a large you know, variation in in appetite right your greenbacks versus more whatever called philosophically driven, you know, buyers. It also then comes into question, what should be the mandate? What should be the basic and that's where housing first comes in. And what we try to shape in in those discussions is that you have to balance you know, two competing values, which are energy efficiency, very much a Minnesota value, but so is homeownership opportunity. And at what point have we were number one. So if we're number one in the country aroma, how much more at the base level? Our general feeling is when we're number one we're building durably and energy efficiently. Let your customers and the homeowners of Minnesota decide which upgrades work best for them. And that's that trade off from a public policy standpoint that we I think do a good job articulating because you know, it's easy if you're if you're at the legislature at the agency as an energy advocate. Your intentions are noble you are you are working on a very high priority item for for society. Right. You know, the public is very interested in this. We come to the table and say great ideas, what should be a mandate? What should be an option? And that's where the debate really happens.

    I completely agree with you. How, how do you navigate that? That is a tricky thing. I think a lot of people mine I'm biased. I'm very disillusioned by politics in general. But yet we need them you have two parties that are how many parties are involved trying to come to a common consensus you had shared? What was the blue sky consensus on the percentage that Yeah,

    so it's interesting in politics, there is, you know, there is a large conversation happening in public affairs throughout our state and country and add Housing First, what we're trying to manage is focus on homeownership access that is at the core, right. Our mission is homeowner, homeownership opportunities for all Minnesotans. I mean, that's why you changed the name. Change the name Housing First. Yeah, that specific reason you guys wanted to be known? Like, hey, housing is our maintenance. Yes. Not builders. Yeah. And yeah, not yes. And so we serve builders, but but our mission is homeownership opportunities. And when you think about the opportunity for homeownership, we stay razor focused on that. And we're in the mid 90s. As far as you go across every demographic, all, you know, all strata all subsets and cross tabs. When we research homeownership is impossibly popular. You know, 96% of the people don't agree the sky is blue. But the agree that they want to own a home, what a great place for you and I to be right. And so that's how we, you know, you asked sort of the question in preparation, like how do you work in these sort of strained political times, we stay focused on homeownership. And we're trying to bring all sides together in that conversation.

    Interesting how, in this stat was published recently, and I'll give the framework you can give me the specifics on it. But essentially, it was a national builders home. So we'll just pick whatever home with let's just call it 500,000. And in the five state area, so Illinois, Wisconsin, north, the Dakotas, and in Iowa, you take that same home. And I was shocked that if you move that same home around Minnesota was like it was 60 $70,000 More than some of the neighboring state Yes, for the exact same house. Correct. Can you speak to some of the things about why that is? And then to what can we do from from a legislative point of view to change that, because it can't be necessarily material? It might be a little bit labor, but a lot of it has to be what zoning permitting, like walk us through some of that, because when I saw that step I was a outrage be dumbfounded and then just like, why not what? Yeah,

    it is it is a regulatory cost connection to building a home here, the number one I talked briefly earlier, about land supply. So So again, we talked about sort of competing values, you know, sort of the sprawl and inefficient infrastructure is what the Met councils Musa line was meant to remedy. And it's done a good job of that. The challenge is, when you constrain the supply of anything, what happens to the cost goes up, our land costs are substantially higher than everywhere in the Midwest, we have a coastal land price, dynamic interest and so diverted,

    framed like that, because of course, when you think of the coasts, you think, Oh, of course, California's expensive, of course, and there's

    a big ocean there, there's been and there's mountains on the other side, so California has at least got, you know, a decent excuse. There's just not that much room in Los Angeles and San Francisco and the Bay Area to build in Minnesota, we're on the prairie. And and our argument is we need to modernize those policies. So when we built those policies in the 60s and 70s, well intentioned, and we do a good job in not stranding infrastructure. So our sewer, our water infrastructure is efficiently, you know, placed, we just don't have enough supply. If we had 100% 200% more supply, the price of land would moderate. And that would be your first major step toward is

    that is it because it used to always be this this concept that you was 1/3 Two thirds, it's not always the case of like one minute rule of thumb. Yeah, and what I mean by that, for those that aren't understanding that, but like, if you bought a lot for 500,000, you know, your house would roughly be a million. So you're, you know, again, this can play it was just mainly like how you value some of this stuff, right? And I get it, like if your land price plummets, you can build whatever house you want because a lot of times people will call me and they'll say Mark, I want to build a $800,000 house and I'll be like, great, does that include the land or not? And like is that a package and people that are kind of in the know know what they want? Like they already know you can't include land in that conversation because I'm not producing land. If for what we do, you know, we do a lot of tear downs. We do a lot of one off, do custom designs, I'm not really doing a neighborhood. But half the clients are like, Oh, no, that's all in and then I'll point them to the parade. I'll point you know, that's not a demographic that I can serve unless it's a remodel. So then I'll point them to maybe other builders that I know, or, you know, what part of the city are you looking in? And I just try to be a source of information. Yes, I'm just to help him out. But that's interesting about them useful line. So you're basically saying if we extended that Musa line or just simply had more lift stations, more basically more utilities in general, yes, that would help.

    So if we have if, if this you know, if we have a land supply of x, most engineered systems are built to greater than 100%. So like your, you know, your other engineered systems are at 200 300% for surge capacity, that would be a way a land supply surge would be a way or to give some flexibility in other markets, there are no Musa lines. And so then you have private infrastructure built to a code, not that different from the building code. So then you would allow in areas where you don't have met Council infrastructure, you would allow developers to build infrastructure. And often what they do is then create a HOA like entity that retires that debt over 20 years. So the infrastructure is privately built, which generally speaking is a more efficient way. Cost last, there's cost efficiencies, and then it's paid off over 20 years. It's like a special assessment on the title of a home. And that really, if you go into the Arizona, and and the Texas, Illinois and Florida markets, that's how they do infrastructure. There is no Matt council. So that type of standing

    in the way so what legislative branch would govern the Met Council? How people are obviously aware of this, obviously, Minnesota or Housing First Minnesota, as I assumed brought this up, you know, where does this get fought? Like, why is there it seems like it seems like pretty low hanging fruit to change that, you know, it's the objection.

    So it's, you know, it's a legend. So the Met councils power is derived from the legislature, but they are appointed by the governor, the members. So it's its executive branch, its legislative branch. And, you know, I would say this is a deeply complex issue. You know, in addition to land supply, you mentioned zoning, it's worth mentioning. Yeah, so when we talk about zoning, no one at housing first, and none of our allied groups that we collaborate with are saying no zoning, but zoning needs to be modernized. We have growing suburbs that require as a basis three car garage, we are out of time, I've got a good stat, our most recent census, there's never been more single person households in recorded history in the US, so demographically of households are smaller. Why are we requiring 90 Sarah large lot because if you have a three you know, this, if you have a three car garage requirement, well there's a structure to garage ratio and then their setbacks. Next thing you know, you have large lot large structure. And in our, you know, perspective is if one of your customers wants a large garage, large structure, large lot, you will serve that client. But if you have a household of one that would like an 1100 square foot efficiently Bill tuck under garage, cool dance, narrow transportation corridor, let's do that

    is that city by city, those artists is so I mean, some cities would be able to modify that to attract it if they were more progressive that and some have. Yeah, like give me some examples. So

    Bloomington, just Bloomington has done tremendous work. Richfield, as well. Bloomington just amended their two car garage requirements down to one car garage, I believe, and don't quote me on this one. But they took their lot minimums, and I believe reduce them by like 50%. It's outstanding, very, very innovative way to say, hey, at a minimum, we're going to try to add, you know, some incentives and create some affordability space for households. And what we've heard nationally where you can build small home small lot homes, they sell like that. And I just snap my finger. So it did a sell in a snap. And it's something we've really we're a market organization. And we would love to see on choices. You talked about the ecosystem, we'd like to see the same thing. We need to produce starter homes at scale to get out of our under supply. And that's really, you know, zoning and land supply are your big two

    speak to that a little bit. So I know basically, obviously, after the Great Recession, and nine and 10 and 11 and 12 that things were so slow, we under supplied the market. We are now between 60 to 90,000 homes or units under what our market needs, is that correct? Correct. So even even with high inflation right now, which I saw the paper today actually said it was at 3%. So yeah, prove it. Yeah. So where is this going to go? Because I've told my clients like, I can't tell you what the next couple of years is going to be. But do I think prices will be more or less expensive five years from now? I think there'll be more I don't think there's a shadow of doubt that they'll Be more Yeah, so it's still a good time to, to build and to buy. And here's the thing, because we're so under supplied, even though costs are up, we still housing is a fundamental need just because, you know, and obviously we see this in food prices as well. But it's interesting how housing is so closely aligned with these things. How does Minnesota even make a dent in this? Because we're so far behind,

    we have to modernize zoning, it's the only way so what you're talking about, I agree, you're talking an apples to apples a home that you could produce today and 2023 and 2028 I agree, it's going to cost more there's just it's almost certain the only way to achieve greater affordability and to put a dent in the in the in the supply the under supply is to build a more modestly sized and modestly you know, they call it modest densification that Zillow is term and they've you know entered this discussion had been a great partner of ours and they said like a 10% across the board densification would solve our our issue

    is that to kind of even like Minneapolis I happen to live down there where they basically went to like like an R two and R three so for those a triplex Yeah. So basically just saying like, hey, a single family home, if you tore down or built a new one like they would now allow a three unit just trying to get density is that what you're

    speaking they are and of course what Zillow is saying is every county community in Minnesota that's not going to happen we in that type of you know, Minnesota's got 800 Plus cities, there's going to be some uniqueness. But when we say units, we do mean apartments, condos, townhomes, villas, single family homes, we need everything.

    So in Minnesota, you know, when I drive into the office on Excelsior, I mean, I see apartment buildings everywhere being built. Any idea what the vacancy rates are like? Those being filled up and sold out? Like, what where is the future? Because obviously, building a custom home is not an apartment. Is that still a? Do people want to go there? Because it's more affordable? Is that your quote starter home? Or what? What is driving all these apartments that I see everywhere? Oh, I

    think affordability and I do think vacancies are exceptionally low. But it's it here's what's interesting since 2012 2021, I believe is the only year that we were in the positive territory. In terms of taking down our under supply, we were improving our deficit in the one boom year after COVID. Since then, we are adding to the deficit if you can believe that. So it is there's a great article by an author in the Atlantic, it was titled housing breaks people's minds. When you drive from South Minneapolis to Excelsior to work, you're seeing cranes and you're seeing construction and you're like, we must be building enough. I work in the industry. And I fall into that and I know the data. And I see I live in Victoria. So as I drive across town, I see all sorts of wonderful construction projects. And it's it's cool, it's progress. We need that, you know, doubled, tripled at scale for a decade. That's really how far undersupplied we are. And it's a very hard concept because you know, the connection to your home you know, this is a builder. It's it's as deep as any connection. I can't think of an institution that connects more deeply to its customer than a home. I I don't know from a product standpoint, I mean cars, maybe there's people that really

    love their cars. I was thinking school but ultimately a home is where you live like I'm thinking affiliation to school, but you're I think you're right. I mean, I think a home is one of your memories are people oftentimes will go back like my neighbor, actually Minneapolis. He actually left came back bought his parents home. Now he's back in the original home, he was in like letters of commitment to, you know, the vibrancy, the memories. And so a home is a very special, obviously, it's very

    special. So I think it does something as we process information. And that's one of our challenges that Housing First is trying to shape this discussion. And a lot of times folks thinks we only want you know, a Parade of Homes. Oh, well, that's for expensive single family homes. It is true that the Parade of Homes is you know, reflects the market, I think we had 62 homes in the spring parade above a million dollars. For from a from a tour going and inspired design. That's pretty cool. We really, really need more modestly priced homes, we need starter homes on the parade. So that's really you know, the cars that you know we're swimming towards.

    I think that is a nice segue into here to the last part of our podcast, which is what a great career. I mean, you just mentioned a couple of things that is going to make essentially building I don't believe in anything as recession proof having just gone through two of them in the last writing years. But let's just say like as far as good career. So you know, If college is not for your unit, it is somehow being associated with building with the trades. What a rewarding career but we just talked about we are 60 to 90,000 units short. And if it's going to take let's just say even if we start making a dent, a decade, two decades, three, maybe indefinite I don't know the point is is like you're talking about an industry where we don't have enough workers and the In the increase, our demand is going to increase. So what's gonna happen to pay wages? Yes, exactly. They're gonna go up, they're gonna go up. So if you want to make have a good career, and maybe not be saddled with some college debt, what better on ramp than to get into any one of the trade that interests you? It could be designed, it could be building, it could be construction podcasts, it could be electrician, it could be a painter. And I think, I think having a wage that supports their lifestyle, which goes back to homeownership, but also making trying to reinforce and it's a cultural thing, which I think is going to be harder. How do you make it so that it's not looked down upon? Because it is a great industry? And in how do you enter a lot of self worth comes out of it. I talked to one of my framers, and he was a stereotypical framer, he had fish and he had hunted, we love that. And he would, he would take photos of the home and he walked away, and his name was Johnny. So Johnny, why do you love what you do, he goes on at the end of the week, I like to look back and take a photo that what he did the week before he goes, I just I just built an entire house in a week, I just added a second story to a house, like and this is nothing against an accountant or marketer or whatever. Like the point is like you physically built something, and like it grew in front of your eyes, that is incredibly powerful. motivation to get into the industry.

    It is so it housing first one of our reflections over the last year is that, that we're called to go more deeply into this discussion that you just described, the Parade of Homes is a powerful platform, as is our public affairs, our legislative and our, our, you know, ability to connect with the public through, you know, all of our association platforms, we need to do what we can to articulate what you just did. This is an industry of well paying jobs, rewarding jobs, the concept of I built that that's powerful, that entrepreneurial pathways are exceptional in this industry. And, and and we don't want to be a counter to college, what we are, you know, trying to share, you have choices. Young Minnesotans have choices, I'm a parent, you're a parent, you know, as parents, I think, you know, we have a responsibility to share in this industry, the opportunities, and that's something that housing first hasn't done an adequate job of, but this is a national issue. And, and from a trade standpoint, and just from a when you look at all of the opportunities, and we're talking immediately leaving high school, and looking at $50,000, average wages in certain disciplines. That's pretty enticing. And in the in the debt ratio for for students. And there's just a deeper discussion that we have to have. And for folks that like to work outside, like I said, the entrepreneurial, you know, if you want to run your own business one day, starting, you know, in one of your trades, you don't know where that goes, and how many of your peers started out on a crew, and are now

    sweeping the house. I mean, my first job was sweeping sweep analysis right here, you aren't on here you are Yeah, so if you don't want to become a builder, don't sweep the house,

    you'll get you'll get hooked. It is so it is I mean, so Housing First is in the lab, so to speak. And we are looking at creating a mechanism, a certification program that would signal to you as a builder, to signal to parents to guidance counselors to support networks, and to Minnesotans to say I could get some level of training, safety training, get some on site exposure, and learn a essentially a first step, you know, curriculum. And that would be a way for me to raise my hand and say, I'm interested. And then of course, there's there's, you know, different technical and trade schools and onsite and on the job training. And I think that's something that I'm very encouraged by is companies like yours and your trade partners are willing to step up and do more training maybe than they did in the past. Because I think that's going to be the necessity, you talked about an ageing workforce, we're going to have to bring a different set of solutions to this challenge. And and part of it's going to be to look at all the tools there are, like I mentioned, certifications that Housing First is working on, but there's online LinkedIn learning, you know, as you bring people along, there's all sorts of ways to enhance their, you know, their potential, once they reach you. So that is, you know, the conversation we're having, you know,

    a big part of anything is education. And I know you guys already do a good job of that. And, you know, it sounds like you're in the beta lab working on this path. Do we have some rough roadmap? Is it a six month is it a year? How long does this take to kind of formulate? And I'm sure there's lots of partners that I'm aware of, you know, whether it's high schools or low tax or, you know, businesses that would then hire these people? What does that process look like?

    Yeah, we're trying to be the hub. And we want to be a collaborator to spokes at at every level, school district, community organizations, religious organizations. I mean, there are all sorts of folks that were in discussions with that had are telling us we need, we need it package, we need a curriculum that the industry will recognize, I think housing first has a brand that would be trusted. And so that's what's taking us the longest time, I think we'll be in a much, much better position to evaluate in three to six months. So we're in that beta phase of just getting the kinks worked out and looking at a certification that can be four intense weeks, nine weeks, which is essentially a high school quarter, 18 weeks a high school semester, that's, you know, sort of trying to meet or all that out and getting all the parts, you know, to work together and the equipment and the donations and the online portals. And then the placement, if you come through our certification program, how does Mark D. Williams? How do you connect with with this young talent? All those pieces are being worked upon now. And I do think you know, we want to make substantial progress by the end of this year.

    One thing and just as we could talk about this for an entire podcast, and actually, maybe we should next spring, yeah, bring you back on to see where it's gone, because I so we've talked to I've talked to a few other builders about doing I've reached out to you a little bit about this. And I'd rather do it in concert versus solo. But the idea of getting a handful of builders to do some sort of a speaking tour to high schools, because I feel like, you know, some of this organization would be obviously beyond me personally. But, you know, speaking about what we do, I happy to do it. I had a kid yesterday that we do a lot of mentorships with Minnetonka high school because they're less than a mile from our office. And they have this program called the Vantage program. It's a business class that they can elect to do. And they pair them with a local business. And for the last four or five years, they have a group of 12. This year, I had two sets, they actually helped me launch this podcast. So I had 1224 kids. And I knew what was going through the rebranding process of my building company. I said, I'm gonna start a podcast, will you help me do the research on it? You know, I let him look at the fonts, I let him look at the you know, our market generation. I had them do stuff around the country. And in anyway, so this gentleman is cramped is his name. He's a junior in high school came yesterday on Tuesday, anyone shadow me for the day. And you know, seeing the podcast now that set up the studio, seeing what we've done. And like, he was super empowered by that, and rightfully so he was there at the origin. And how cool was it that as a business person, these kids can be a part of literally creating a business, that doesn't happen every day? You know, that would be a pretty rare instance, actually. But the point is, is I can't tell you how invigorating it was for me. Like it's so cool to be around the ideas that they have in the general end and the talent. And so I would love to just go speak to Yes, high schools in it. Because if from an education standpoint, if we're going to show them what you could do, and it might not be for them, but that's okay, too. Because how much of it? Do they even know, you know, is what's being exposed to them in high school? I don't know.

    Well, I think there there has been a massive contraction. I mean, I guess I'm old enough where I did have tech ed. Yeah. So in junior high, and I loved it. It was fun. We played with the jigsaw and you know, all the safety and we had so you know, classes, I want to be clear. Did they not have that in any schools or just some schools? I think it is it is limited in comparison, probably to what you and I experienced? And I feel like that's part of of our platform is can we work with schools and and provide a module a curriculum that they can implement? And are there resources that we can marshal? Because I don't think every school, any school district is the same? And I think it was probably more uniform back in the 80s 90s. You know, we had a

    shop class home MacColl and I've heard that a lot of those classes are gone now. Right? I was shocked to hear that. And like, What do you mean? I agree, don't you don't get co2 racing cars, you don't get to make a wood car and race it down the hall. You

    made wood cars, I learned how to make an omelet and HOMAG. And it was very helpful, frankly, I still remember still use it. Yeah. So I feel like you know, that is one of our like you said, we want to be a collaborator on this. There's good work happening in many different places we want to add to it. And you know, you mentioned, you know, your friend and your colleague who said, I built that. That's a powerful campaign that the Parade of Homes artist and home tour and remodeler showcase. We're going to work on that. Because I think when you're touring homes, I think folks underestimate how many companies and how many hands and how much innovation and hard work went into that home. And there's a way we could feature that. And there's probably people maybe parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, friends, neighbors that are saying, Wow, I know someone that would love to have a chance to work on one of your projects. Well, guess what? You're looking for that person too. So we got to find a way of housing first to help us you know, we're privileged and we want to use that to help you connect and help them to connect Where do like the

    dunwoody's in the Hennepin tech? You know, I'm sure there's a lot more than I don't know, Where where are they playing in this whole sphere.

    They're doing great work on great programs. And the way we see the housing first certification program would be complementary. It would be a much smaller scale those you know, sort of more mature degree programs. It'd be great to feed you know a high school student that went through our you No nine week curriculum then to say, look, I want to go to Dunwoody I want to go to Hennepin Tech because I learned enough, I got just enough to say, Okay, this is what I want to do. Yep. Love it. And that's where we see ourselves fitting we see ourselves as support for they would love it as much as we do. Oh, absolutely, yeah, we're not positioning this as an alternative, we're saying, you know, there is a massive need. And really, I think you hit it, there is an awareness gap. And it's bigger than probably you and I even understand it to be. So that's a lot of good work. But that's something a trade organization is well positioned to try to address before you

    came on. And you kind of already shared some of the starting salaries, but I had reached out to my H vac, electrician, and plumbers, and they're all pretty similar. So like coming out of coming out High School, someone who's green could make roughly 20 to $25 an hour, yeah, within a few years, you could be 30 to 40 bucks an hour. And then you know, whether you do journeyman or master, there's all these different tiers, and a lot of it, you know, you have to be competent in those senses, those types of things as well. But what was interesting is, I think it was the plumber said that he felt that roughly for every master, no sort of electrician, I'm sorry, the plumber. He said that for every seven Master Plumbers that were leaving the market due to age, in a declining industry, only one journeyman was taking their place. Wow. So you have this massive attrition of talent, knowledge, and workforce, all three of those things, which is crippling, so anyone listening, make sure you have great relationships with your trade partners. Because until some of this stuff can transition through, because the market will take care of a lot of this. And if you're if you have to, if you have to pay someone, you know, $100,000 to, you know, hang a sheet sheet or sheetrock, I'm going to quit being a builder and I'm gonna go army epsilon. But the point is, I mean, free market will handle some of this. But in general, like, we have a major issue. And I know I'm not the only one talking about this has been very well publicized. But it's just important for people to realize what a great career trait you can have. And you can make you can make very good money, you can make

    very good money, honorable work, fun, work, exciting, rewarding. And so it just checks so many boxes. And, you know, it's interesting to think back where I don't remember, you know, there were no proclamations, I think it was just a slow contraction. And that's just interesting how some of those things, you know, happen. And it's just something we're reflecting a lot at it housing first saying, Okay, what are just the foundational principles? At no point? Do you ever stop replenishing a workforce? And that's something as we look back, that would have been a great thing in the 80s 90s, early 2000s, to really be emphasizing because now it's like, Whoa, we're 25 years behind, and we have a lot in front of us to

    fix as we close down. Now, where can people obviously in Minnesota in this case, and most people want to move here, which they're certainly welcome to? We have a lovely state. But where can people get involved with Minnesota Housing First? I mean, obviously, they can contact you, but you have a huge staff as well. Where would people if they want to get involved in committees that people if builders listening, want to be involved with community outreach? And we haven't even talked about the the housing first foundation, which our we talked about that another time? But how would how would they? How would people listening get involved? If they feel passionate about this topic? Yeah. I

    mean, I would go to housing first and then.org. That's our website, look us up connect, we have an exceptional staff. Like I mentioned, a couple dozen committed, you know, best in class, I think we have the best team in the nation credible, the communication is unreal. Yeah, I just am so proud of all of them. And we have an outstanding board that is supportive. And you know, I've been in this role a year, and I've had questions can I be involved, there's a place for everybody in our industry, at housing. First, we will find a place in our committee structure and we are reinvigorating our Young Professionals Network, which is exciting. If you're I believe under 35 is the new cut off. So I think you and I are out. But but we want to welcome our young professionals in and let them explore our different committees. And we have you know, policy and advocacy and green building and awards and artisan home tour and Parade of Homes. And there's so many different ways to contribute. And the workforce program is going to be huge. And so that's going to be another way obviously, you mentioned the foundation as well. So yeah, there's something for everybody. Or you get out of curiosity, are

    you guys hiring as well? Are you trying to fill any?

    We are we are yes, we're a growing company. And we continue to you know, as as our home tours expand, as our you know, advocacy and communications and need to create content expands we are growing. Okay. Yep,

    that's good to know. Closing note. You're a very intelligent, well spoken individual. What do you do for continuing education for yourself personally, and maybe just a few things about, you know, what do you do when you're not thinking about how to increase housing and affordable? Yeah,

    so it's kind of personal. I mean, I am a I'm a nonfiction reader, and I am really inspired by going way back. So I like looking at you know, you know, business leaders, presidents, especially, I'm a student of Political Science and love presidential history, and what I always find interesting is to go back 50 100 years and look at leadership challenges without any of the technology that we have. And what's amazing is sort of the, the challenges feel very familiar. And I would encourage those who like that type of content to read it, you know, the things we're wrestling with now. You know, some of the problems are timeless. So that's, that's pretty cool. Like they I tend to rely on on historical, you know, kind of cool moments in history. And, you know, what was happening there? What was happening with the Chief of Staff of Theodore Roosevelt when he was president, and this issue confronted us, you know, I really enjoyed that. And that's very cool. And then on, you know, I am a college football enthusiast. Absolutely,

    golfer, right.

    I'm a golfer, you know, and we both are and you know, still waiting for us to get get to the Rose Bowl, and I'm a patient optimist there. But yeah, that's, that's a big hobby of mine.

    Cool. Well, thank you very much for your time. Thanks for coming on. know you're busy. And for everyone that's listening. We'll have everything taped in the show notes as well. And we'll try to have you back on next year.

    Awesome. Thanks for having me, Mark.

    All right. Thanks, James. Thanks for listening to the curious builder podcast if you liked what you listened to please give us a five star rating and write us a review. It really means a lot. It's a great way for us to just understand what you like about the podcast and what we can keep doing so like and review and please share with your friends and family. Find out more at curious builder podcast.com

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