Episode 117 - The Renaissance Woman of Architecture: A Conversation with Nancy Weinman
#117 | Nancy Weinman | Weinman Architectural Services | The Renaissance Woman of Architecture: A Conversation with Nancy Weinman
What do Macy’s department stores, Harvard Business School, Sedona home builds, and mentoring women in construction have in common? Architect and designer Nancy Weinman. In this inspiring episode, Nancy chats with Mark about her multi-decade career, her thoughts on value engineering, building client trust, and why confidence—and kindness—are two of the most powerful tools in business.
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About Nancy Weinman
Nancy’s professional career has spanned over 25 years. This has given her a wide breath of experience that permits her to expertly handle a diverse variety of projects.
As opposed to many architects who have a narrow focus, Nancy is completely comfortable designing environmentally sensitive private homes in beautiful Sedona Arizona or handling the intricacies of a Manhattan condominium redesign and refurbishment.
During her career, Nancy has been the recipient of AIA awards, as well as an international lighting design award, and has been published by Rizzoli, Interior Design and Luxe magazines. Nancy has extensive knowledge of materials and methods. This is of great advantage when she is working to make the scope of work and the budget fit together.
She is able to successfully create a finished product that is on-time and in budget without compromising the appearance of the finished product. Nancy prides herself on her ability to understand the needs of her clients. She personally works closely with them from the inception of the project to its completion.
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Mark D. Williams 00:00
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Nancy Weinman 01:06
How are you nice on attacks like, sometimes we're just trying to get the information across. And I had a client who, like, after every sentence, she would write a heart after every text, a heart. And now I do it back to her so it's like, whatever you write, they think that it came from your heart, or at least, like you're there with your heart today
Mark D. Williams 01:33
in the cure. Through her podcast, we had Nancy Weinman on with Weinman architectural services out of Sedona and New York, and it was a privilege to talk with Nancy multi decade career, and really was awesome to hear her story as one of the only women in her architecture class and the only pm in a Macy stores to you know her mentoring women in construction, architecture and design in today's world, and just hearing the differences and what she's trying to do is really inspiring and truly a Renaissance woman. There's nothing that Nancy can't do without further ado. Here is Nancy. Welcome to the curious builder Podcast. I'm Mark Williams, your host today, I'm joined with Nancy Weinman, with Weinman architectural services. Welcome Nancy. Thank you. Thank you very much, Mark. Are you in Arizona today or New York? I am in Arizona,
Nancy Weinman 02:19
and my bags are packed because I'm going to New York in the morning.
Mark D. Williams 02:23
You are a trendsetter. Well, it was really cool. Someone on your team reached out. And I didn't realize it till I was prepping for this episode that you you know, obviously do architectural work. We'll get on into all of that in the episode. But I was just down in Sedona for the first time with my family about three weeks ago. We did spring break. I've got a nine, six and a five year old. And my brother in law lives in Phoenix, so we went to visit him, and I thought, Oh, hey, let's do a couple days in Sedona, and I'd like to trail run. So I was trail running. It's way more beautiful than I had ever thought. And I'm from Minnesota, so I like lakes and trees and I like the western mountains, but Sedona is really beautiful. I was impressed.
Nancy Weinman 03:01
It's impressive. Between the blue sky and the red rocks, if that's not enough, then there's all the foliage. And it just is amazing place and very peaceful.
Mark D. Williams 03:12
Yeah, it's more lush. It's more lush than I would have thought. It's a good time in the year to see the green. Yeah, yeah. Stay away from the summer. I guess, well enough of our travel tips. Let's get to you. Tell us a little bit about yourself. You are a renaissance woman here, architect, designer, builder, general contractor, Ian there isn't at this point, I think we should the shorter list would be, What haven't you done? And so it's pretty wild. You have quite the quite the resume. Okay,
Nancy Weinman 03:37
well, years back, there was a perfume called Angela, and there's a little tune that goes with it that my husband found where it's like, I'm the Angela woman. I can bring home the money and cook dinner at the same time, so I'm sort of like the Angela woman, and it's required of a lot of women that are working in these days, and they may have a kid on their hip or maybe cooking for somebody, you know, while they're even doing a podcast or whatever, but so being a woman is part of it. But quite honestly, when I started, I was one of 3% at the university that started with the discipline of architecture. I was a cellist, and then I moved to architecture, and back then, we didn't even think about it. Or certainly I didn't think about it. It was just okay, this is a thing. It wasn't even promoted as a challenge. Or, I don't think people really looked at how many women and how many went men. So I think I just went into it, no questions asked. And if that wasn't bad enough, then I became a construction manager, and I'm like, Okay, I just went into it, no questions asked. And what it's really about for me is, yes, I'm in Arizona and New York, which are bipolar opposites, for sure, but I think that. Difference that I see for myself is that I'm always operating two sides of the brain, because usually people are very good with the math part, or they're good with the design part. And in many meetings, I'm saying, you know, most architects think in circles, and I believe that I think in a straight line, always after the goal, but still maintaining that creative spirit. So that's a short sentence.
Mark D. Williams 05:28
Yeah, well, there's a lot to him. Yeah, that's very succinct way to go. It's interesting. Building is such a male dominated industry, and I've said this many times on the podcast, we need more women in construction and design. I feel like there's more for sure, interior design is dominated by women. Yes, architecture would be probably a higher percentage than building, but not by a great margin. Would you agree with that, or not
Nancy Weinman 05:54
architects building?
Mark D. Williams 05:58
I would say no, like if I was the interior designers would be very dominant by women in terms of demographics. Architects would be, I don't know what the split is. Call it 2070, 30. What's your
Nancy Weinman 06:09
like? I said when I started, it was like 3% and I think it's up around 40% now, but it's probably 40% in school. So then the question is, do they survive and continue? Right? Right? Because we can all get very enthusiastic. And then you get on the real in the real world, and you go,
Mark D. Williams 06:29
Wait a minute, yeah, yeah. Well, it's, it's interesting. I I didn't realize I was doing this early on in my career, but I'm a big team person. I just like to have, I see that compliments from the builder to the designer, to the architect, to the landscape architecture, to really everybody on the on I just like different points of view. We're just, I was had an architect design meeting yesterday, and they use the word tension. And I've never really used that word before, because I always tell my clients, when they sign on with us, is on our design retainer. A lot of clients in Minnesota at least come through the builder first, and then we'll engage, we'll interview architects, and bring assemble the team, not all the time, but and I, and this architect was saying, he goes, I like a healthy tension. I like there to be tension between each party. And sometimes I think tension is the wrong word, but I think you're a cellist, it sounds like, or was, your strings need to be taught. And so it's like, it's that, yes, it's that tension, that the resonance, that leads to music. And I think people, there are times the architect will say, Hey, I'd really like this, and the builders might say, I like that too. But if our goal is longevity, that particular material might not be the right one in our climate. And I just love a team that collaborates right. And I think it's really, really important. So anyway,
Nancy Weinman 07:41
yes, I would say collaboration is probably the most important. Working here in Sedona, I think I've done maybe 22 homes, and I've used the same builder for over 10 years, and it is kind of amazing that we are I think actually, we had probably our first argument yesterday, but I don't think it's going to stick. But I would say that if you're not collaborating with if the architect is not collaborating with the GC, that's key. We refuse to play the blame game, and we're all about solutions, and that's why I think we have longevity. There's another project I just finished, and the collaboration with the GC was amazing, because he would ask for something and I would do it, or talk to my guy that works for me. We would he would draw it up, he would give it to me. I would be like, boom, boom, boom. And if you don't have that flow, then you get stuck. But one of the things I want to answer is really so if the architects thinks that, you know, this is the material, and the builders like, that's not going to last long enough, there has to be an collaboration in what's the best material. When I am the architect and the construction manager or project manager, I streamline a lot of that, and that's what I think makes it so fast. So if you're walking on a site like we would in Macy's and say, well, we can't sell clothes like this, because we need X, Y and Z, and the design doesn't say that we can actually sit there and collaborate and think of a good solution, and say, okay, architecturally, yes, that works. Builder, does that work? Yes. And like, we're out of there and it starts being performed.
Mark D. Williams 09:28
So let me just make sure I understand that. So you're not acting as a GC, but you are acting as a project manager for the GC, or you're acting
Nancy Weinman 09:36
for the owner, so I'm the owner's advocate, like an owner's rep,
Mark D. Williams 09:41
oh, okay, is do you have a separate contract for that or not? Yes. Oh, really, that's fascinating. So you have your architecture contract the clients. Rep, how often do does a client ask? Why? Why? How often does a client say, well, because,
Nancy Weinman 09:56
quite clearly in the AIA agreement. Says construction administration is basically for me to be there to make sure it's built per my documents, right, that the plans and specs must be executed. That's kind of it. That's why we go look at the job site to make sure everything is plans and specs. We do resolve issues if it can't happen for whatever reason, but it's a whole another level. If you want me to be in charge of the budget, for instance, if you want me to look every month, how much have you spent? What decisions have you made in terms of floor tile? Well, the excavation just cost twice as much as we thought. Let me help you modify or let me tell you you should modify certain buys that are in front of you, whether it's a window package or tile or appliances, so that at the end of the day your budget is right on, or many times the owners like, what is the GC thinking? Or maybe they're just not even comfortable talking to a big, burly guy, no offense. But you know the idea that here comes the contractor, and you can't argue. So I'm their advocate. And it's like, it's not that I argue with anybody, but I point out, contractually, or on the drawings or the specifications, what should be
Mark D. Williams 11:15
I'm not bigger Burley, but people love to argue with me all the time. I have to get I can have to talk to talk to your builder and get his one on one playbook, because clearly I'm doing something wrong. That's pretty funny. I you know, it's interesting. I assume most are you, most of your clients in Arizona. Maybe we'll shift later to New York. I'd love to compare and tell so they're coming to you first. And I think that's a an important difference, because one of the questions I'm going is there ever an adverse effect? Essentially, you hold the architecture cards and the client management cards, and let's say who would be would they hire an interior designer? Are you handling interior design as well?
Nancy Weinman 11:55
A lot of times I do hear, I do take care of the interiors. I say like you got
Mark D. Williams 11:59
one, got three. You've got three votes to this one, this one builder, this this guy doesn't have much of a chance against you. Well, I
Nancy Weinman 12:06
do realize, because I'm familiar with the contracts that it, there are conflicts of interest. I mean, you can't be looking over your own work, right? It's, it's just not right. So when those things happen, I try to recognize it and let people know what's going on and maybe even back off, because if something can't be built because the architecture maybe wasn't drawn correctly or whatever, and there has to be a change. I can't sit there and protect the architectural documents. If there's actually an error there, I have to step in and say, No, you're right. There's a mistake there. And now let's back off, redesign it. I'll do that. But now let's do it with the contract. The contractor in mind as to what he can build.
Mark D. Williams 12:53
I mean, kudos to you for a number of things. There's a number of ways I can look at this, but from the obviously, your clients a really trust you and admire you, and you can just tell just your calm again, I called you a renaissance woman without even knowing much about you. And I think that's even more true now, because I think you're so well rounded, you're very well suited for so many of the things that you're talking about, being self aware enough to realize that, hey, you have to put on a different hat, and maybe this hat was wrong, and then this person would say, I just think you're conveying that to your client in terms of trust. And we talk about all the time with our clientele is like, you know, we try to make building not about the price, because if you're building, if you're building the same material, same architect, same the price is the price. And so really it's about the relationship, it's the journey. It's the communication. Who do you want to spend the next two years of your life with? I mean,
Nancy Weinman 13:44
I say that all the time. People say, Well, how much does it cost? I go, you know, it actually doesn't matter so much, how much I'm charging you. It's like, Do I like you, and do you like me? And are we okay for me? Because the build is two years it's usually three years together.
Mark D. Williams 14:00
Yeah. I mean, that design part is very underrated, depending on your I mean, it can take that year of design and selection will actually make a build go faster, right? I mean, for a long time, the playbook of builders was go as fast as you can with as little knowledge as possible, because we just want to get it going, which is about the dumbest way to fly an airplane. I use the flying analogy, because no one would get on an airplane. If you're like, Oh, we're just putting on the wing right now, I'd be like, what? Why are we doing this? And yet? Well, there
Nancy Weinman 14:26
are certain things that you can design while you're being built. Okay? So, I mean, we've all heard of fast track, right? And that's basically it, and that's the way they used to do Macy stores. Because when we built a Macy's store, and say it's kind of amazing, it only took two years to build, but it would, we would do the foundation and the core of the building and not worry about anything inside, because merchandising changed so fast that if handbags were hot this year, it could be socks next year. Oh, that's. So we specifically would not do the interior and just do the base of the building, knowing that we didn't know what we were doing inside. But that probably
Mark D. Williams 15:09
correct me from wrong, because I didn't know very little about commercial construction that would only work on a cost plus basis, because you're essentially saying, Hey, I trust you. You trust me. We're building out the shell, and it's TBD on what the inside build out is going to be at a later date. So I can't actually tell you what it's going to cost, because the whole point of a fixed bid versus a cost plus is, if it's fixed bid, then I need to know everything, because I people ask all the time, what's it going to cost? And the builder is going to say, I can't tell you what it costs unless you tell me what's in it. And so one of those things has to go first was that, is that how you handled the Macy build outs? No,
Nancy Weinman 15:40
it was more complicated that than that, and I might have to do another series on that. But basically, we would hire a GC to come on board and be our advocate, and then together, we would put things out to bid, and we would look at the bids with the contractor. So it was a little more complicated. So if we bought out the steel package, or bought out the concrete package. We did that, and then the builder, when he was bidding on the job, he would only build general conditions.
Mark D. Williams 16:11
Interesting. How, in percentage were you employed by Macy's at this time? Or were you designing for
Nancy Weinman 16:18
it? It was Federated Department Stores that was in charge of Macy's and Bloomingdale's. And I don't know how much of a shopper you are, but most people don't know that. Yeah. So anyway, it was Federated Department Stores, and I was one of maybe 12 PMS project managers and for the corporate construction department, so I was the only woman doing that, and it was definitely interesting paperwork wise. You know how we got through all this?
Mark D. Williams 16:47
And correct me if I'm wrong, please. But I would imagine that's a huge advantage to whoever hired you. They must have been really smart to have at that time. You're the only woman, PM, within this design group, but correct me if I'm wrong, most buying, especially in a Macy's, would probably be done by women. So shocker, alert, you have a woman helping design the place that women are going to shop, versus a man like you just asked me about this as like, I don't know, last time I saw the inside of a Macy's probably when I picked out the registry with my wife, when I did our wedding registry, and I didn't pick out anything anyway she picked out. And so part
Nancy Weinman 17:19
of corporate construction actually hired an outside architect and an interior designer, and then there was a design department. So we were really the implementers. Implementers, right?
Mark D. Williams 17:31
You had very little sway at that time. Just modify the designs you were really executing and building it
Nancy Weinman 17:36
the only thing we really were in charge of, and the corporate management made sure we were on top of it was lighting. Okay? Lighting is everything in a department store. So we were trained on lighting. We actually went to the Con Edison home of lighting, and did seminars. And so if any architect or designer or whatever did the lighting, we had the last word on that and but otherwise, things were designed by other people, and we were basically implementing the contracts and making sure everything was on time and on budget.
Mark D. Williams 18:19
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Nancy Weinman 20:14
there was one thing that I learned in that business school that I've never forgot, and I can tell you, it to you in two minutes, and it's always stayed with me, and there's always good to have one thing, right? And it's like, if you call somebody and say they call you back right away, you feel like you need to call them back right away. If you call somebody and they call you, and at the time it was fax or whatever, and then they wait two weeks, you kind of think you have two weeks to give back to them, right?
Mark D. Williams 20:42
This is amazing. That's called mirroring, right? You're mirroring tone of voice their communication style, right, right?
Nancy Weinman 20:49
And I can't tell you how important that is.
Mark D. Williams 20:54
Do you find that's true today? Like, if somebody responds to you after two weeks you've sent an email, then is that something just Well,
Nancy Weinman 21:00
I never wait to I never wait two weeks. I mean, like in construction, like, yeah, you know, when things don't happen, it's like, go work it like a construction manager. Like, call again, three times nicely. This is how we do it. You know what? You never wait for the call back. It's, I brought this
Mark D. Williams 21:16
up just recently an interview. I think was actually maybe the interview I had yesterday this week, I'm have a heavy recording. Otherwise, it's normally weekly. But one thing that came up was in terms of business and the reason I asked that question was, how much of the skills that we learn as business owners? I've owned my business now for 21 years. Looking back, it's so much of it is a people skills, soft people skills. And I asked this other builder. I said, if you could be anything but a builder, what do you think your 40 some years of business would make you ideally suited for? He's like a psychologist or like a marriage therapist, right? Totally agree,
Nancy Weinman 21:53
because like a psychologist or just I feel like I'm shepherding people through the process, and they lean on me if I'm enthusiastic or really certain about a decision or a recommendation. They go for it. If I go, I don't know, do you like this color or that color? I don't know. It's like, No, I tell them, this is the Do you like this color? Yes, this is the color. You have to just it's contagious if you're enthusiastic, and sometimes I'm wrong and enthusiastic, but I'm still contagious.
Mark D. Williams 22:25
Yeah, I think it's really important to note that the soft people skills that you have to have, yes, you have to be good at design, you have, in your case, architecture and building and all the other things that are actual skills that you need. But the soft people skills and the running of the business side is a lot of it is, I'm sure it has to be like how you're raised, your parent, your siblings, your life experiences, and then, of course, just learning it. I The reason I bring it up in that way is I remember, my dad was a builder, and my mom was interior designer, as I mentioned. And she I remember asking my dad, I think I was like a middle school at the time, so I'm putting myself as like a 12 year old, 14 year old, however old you are in middle school. And I said, What makes you a successful business owner? And he said, open the doors for women and older people. Be nice. Be nice to other people. Say please and thank you, and return phone calls. And honestly, like I went to business school, I can't tell you a single thing I learned now I was 21 years old. Like, I think I just needed time to mature. Like a lot of other boys at that period of time, are not nearly as mature as the women are, and, you know, party, no, I wasn't partying. I just that wasn't my jam either. I was just, I just wasn't, I don't know. I just figured, yeah, I mean, it just wasn't great. Like, for instance, I'm way more interested in learning today than I've ever been at any point in my life. Now, I was always a good student. I loved reading, I loved all those things. But like, now, like, I'm a voracious reader. You're curious. Yeah, thank you. And so, I guess the point, I think someone comes with wisdom and age and interest and like, I think as you get older, you know who you are. I think there. I think in your 20s, you're figuring out, like, who am I? Where am I going, what am I doing? And now, as your life gets older, someone said the other day that I'm 45 or 44 and someone just turned 40, and they're all bummed out about I'm like, Are you kidding me, dude, middle age is awesome. I said you go to bed early. You wake up early. You know who you are. You know what you're doing. Like, you get to decide, yeah, it's great. What are you whining about? And it was just more just,
Nancy Weinman 24:12
but I would say definitely, you learn with boots on the ground for sure, and how you treat people. It was a time like, it occurred to me, fine. Like, when I go into a corporate office, I should be nice to the admin, as opposed to, oh, well, I'm just here to see the boss. Like, who are you? Like, no, you're probably the most important person now the gatekeeper, and I need to respect that. So I think that working with people, and I've had a lot of compliments on how I do work with people. It is key, because you set the tone. And even a lot of people come to my house here in Sedona, and when they walk in, it also sets the tone. They're like, Why does it feel so calm here? And it's like, this is what we're going to bring to your place. So whether you do it in, how. You dress how your house looks, but what comes out of your mouth, especially the first time? First of all, just on emails. I mean texts, how do you how are you nice on a text? Like, sometimes we're just trying to get the information across. And I had a client who like after every sentence, she would write a heart after every text a heart, and now I do it back to her. So it's like, whatever you write, they think that it came from your heart, or at least, like you're there with your heart.
Mark D. Williams 25:29
Do you still do that with other clients, or just that one, especially new
Nancy Weinman 25:33
clients, interesting to get them in the mode, like you're in a loving situation? Yeah,
Mark D. Williams 25:38
no, I like that. That's you're an expert at mirroring. I didn't know what it was till later in my career. I being very extroverted. I was always best at sales when I could create energy. To your point about passion, and so I probably sold more on passion. I think I still do. I can help it. I'm just excited about I think that's what's fun. When an architect reveals a first look. I'm trying so hard not to react, and I could never play poker because my face tells you everything. And I'm just like, This is amazing. Like, I love this. And like, I think if the client was on the fence, they take one look at me and like, well, I guess I love it too. And so it's like, exactly, and I which is true, but I learned as I've gotten older that I also I sort of want them to have their own moments, because sometimes if we give all the love and all the adoration and all, and I guess you still need to be honest who you are, but I want the client to have their moment to react to it honestly. Because I guess what I'm in the back of my mind is, if I react so positively, and let's say I have a big personality or whatever, I wouldn't want the client to feel intimidated, that they also have to like it if they truly don't. And that's taken me a little while to sort of figure out how to temper that, but I'm like a dog waking a tail, like it's pretty obvious that I like, I like what it is.
Nancy Weinman 26:45
And I'm not saying that I have a love fest all the time, because certainly I don't, because if I don't like something, I mean, and I'll tell people, I'll keep you away from your worst decisions, and I'll let them know sometimes that's probably not a good idea. And so there are the most important thing about communication in our world is to be honest and to be succinct, and so you can't sugarcoat things. I'm not really talking about sugar coating things, but if you're on the fence and you're wondering what to do, I have other architects that go I have these clients, they can't make a decision. And I'm thinking it kind of takes two to tango, so maybe have to be a little bit stronger beneath them.
Mark D. Williams 27:27
I think your earlier comment about being a shepherd, I think, you know, you can lead from the front, you can also lead from the back. There's no and sometimes you have to do both. You know, there are times side and the top. I mean, a little bit of everywhere. Yeah, I think of a shepherd's rod. I didn't realize this, but it's a long rod. There's actually a verse, and it's just like, guide me by thy staff and rod. And I don't think a shepherd, I'm not obviously an Old Testament Shepherd here, but I've heard that like that, that long staff was not meant to like hit sheep, but from the back, you could use it as like a guidepost and steer them a little bit. And I mean,
Nancy Weinman 27:59
that is what we do, right? We guide people. We know the vision. We know where we're going. They like, you know, a lot of times it's might be their first build, and they're like, Oh, my God, look at all this framing. What is this going to turn into? And we're like, oh, we see it like we already see it with the drywall on it before they do though, for them to follow us, or for us, like you say, to have the staff or whatever, we clearly have a direction,
Mark D. Williams 28:26
right? I could talk about this forever client management is such an important part of it, and expectations, I think from a shepherding, I think they look to us for guidance, at least the best relationships. Do you know sometimes I've had we work with a lot of people that own companies and own businesses, and the ones that I think are the best client relationship is the ones with that they realize that they are not the expert, even though they're an expert, maybe in their field, and so they extend their control to you, because they're hiring you as your professional and you, and they're allowing themselves to sort of be guided on this journey. And the flip side of that is when someone feels out of control, then they try to control the thing that that they feel out of control. So they try to control you, or they try to control a process. And that, that I've noticed is a red flag, if it ever comes up navigating that it's a Have you had that? Where do you have had somebody that's
Nancy Weinman 29:19
yes, I have had that. And there are with the internet, it's little bit even more difficult. It's like the client, the patients that go to the doctor with all of the information written now and then, they want the doctor's opinion, but they don't really totally so here it's like, if we're picking out a coffee table or something, how many can you look at online? It's not if I have a trade account here and there, there may be things they haven't seen, but there's just so much information on the internet. Like, I have a client that went through some electrical drawings, and he was asking questions that I don't even know the answer to. I'm like, how did you learn this? So first of all. All as an architect, as a renaissance woman, I don't try to know everything. There's just way too much information. So you need to know where to go. And I think it does boil down to look, if your customer trusts you, that you're going to look out for them and look with them, or even train them a little bit. Sometimes I find I'm training people about architectural terms and this and that, so if you take on the role of like teacher, then I think they're more apt to follow your chord as opposed to establishing their own. At one
Mark D. Williams 30:32
point, you were an adjunct professor at NYU. Are you? Are you still teach?
Nancy Weinman 30:36
I'm not teaching, but I'm doing mentoring and inspiring conversations to bring young women into the field with out lacking confidence. But when I was teaching at UNM excuse me, at NYU, the I taught how to read construction documents. And the most interesting thing is my elevator rep that was installing an escalator at one of the Macy stores showed up, and I'm like, oh, no, you don't know how to read documents. This is scary, but it was just we played around with it. It was fun. And you know how to do a remodel, like an apartment remodel in New York, and the breadth of students that I had was very interesting. But as you know, when you teach, you learn more. That was part of the initiative for myself, is to just learn more. And if I had to teach it, I had to figure out what I didn't know and get it all done. So it was a two way path, wonderful,
Mark D. Williams 31:35
and I want to go down. I want to put a pin in that, because we're going to come back to that in a minute. One thing early on in your career, I was just on your website, you talk about your journey, and at what point did you realize when you were working as a pm for Macy's, you have this quote that says that early on your career, you want to start a business where it was one client like, walk me through that thought process you like, and what led you to
Nancy Weinman 31:56
I was working for an architectural firm, And it was in 2007 when things were getting really difficult, okay, and people were being laid off, I was actually helping them how to manage their business, to make more money, to like, not give away free work, and to help their profits. And it was a little bit of a sad stories. People had told me you should start your own business. And it's like in New York City, whatever, wherever you live, you usually look out at a like, 20,000 windows, right with the lights on. So it's like, you know, it would only take one of those lights and one of those windows to give me a client that could get me started. And if I can find that, I'm good. And actually, that is how it started with one client. It was, you know, a client on Central Park South and that was good client. And I did quite a few homes and businesses in New York. But of course, you have to believe in yourself. But if you break it down and go, Okay, one client, that's more than I ever had. And I think I can go for it with that.
Mark D. Williams 33:01
I like, I just like this vision of you looking outside. I'm just picturing New York in the skyscrapers. I'm just like, I only need one window. I only need one delight. I just, I have this, I have this picture of what that looks like. And you're like, there's a lot of windows here with a lot of lights. Like, I only need one of them. It's very optimistic. I think I, you know, I just, I appreciate that. I feel like so many people do start their business that way, not quite articulating as well as you where, let's say, as I've interviewed architects, and they're a junior associate, or whatever they are, and then they'll have a client that maybe they worked on a project with. Mr. Johnson will come back and say, Nancy, you were amazing to work with. I'm going to build a lake cabin. Would you ever start your own firm? And like, it's kind of like the seed capital they have this one client. Kind of like, are you willing to take a walk of faith and walk out on this one client? And you go with this one, and they lead two and a three, and it feels like so many and it's not just architects, I think builders that have project managers, that's a very similar path for many project managers to take ownership, path to being a builder. It's almost like a quasi apprenticeship program, in the sense that, like your owners or you're not an owner's rep, but like you work for this person, and now they know you, they see potential in a young Nancy, and they're like, Nancy, I want to give you a shot, and I've won a number of jobs based on youth. I think sometimes people think youth is a detractor. I actually think it's a huge advantage, depending on how you spin it. Early on in my career, I want a number of jobs, because I was the youngest, and they could see a sense of hunger and urgency and maybe the intangibles, if you will. And they just said, You know what? Someone gave me a chance. I'm picturing someone in particular. His name's John, and John, early on in my career, someone gave me a chance. And he goes, I'm looking at other builders, but I want you to build my home, because I want to pay that forward that somebody did for me. And we had a great build, great relationship, and I think about that, and yeah, and certainly
Nancy Weinman 34:52
that would have been great. I didn't have that. No, what was that?
Mark D. Williams 34:56
First relationship like that? They said, Nancy, I want to work with you.
Nancy Weinman 34:59
It's. Yeah, well, I don't know if I had left the company that I was working with and just, you know, did a dry start, or if I was leaving, but it was very, you know, borderline. And, you know, I'm having a hard time remembering how I'd met that client, but it was just the one client, and it was all consuming, because she was so into me and my skills. She became my best friend. We were running around New York, buying stuff. We were negotiating with the landlord. I mean, we were just into it. So I think it might have come from an engineer that gave me a referral, or heard that I wanted to start my business, something like that, but it was basically starting from nothing. And now, listen, I think young people act actually, definitely have that, you know, let's get it going, and we have a lot of energy and that sort of thing. But it's interesting because I've been thinking about the opposite side, because now I'm older, and it's like, Well, why would hire somebody, hire you with, you know, 40 years experience. Well, one of the things you know, I was thinking or reading about is, like, a lot of these homes are 3 $4 million like you do want to give an old person your, you know, 3 $4 million and that's why people like Frank Lloyd Wright and Philip Johnson worked for so long because they had so many years behind them, and the projects were so large that, you know, even in Macy's, we would say in a room, are there any gray hairs here? We need some gray heads. You know, we just need to have the breadth of knowledge that sometimes the maturity can bring,
Mark D. Williams 36:40
oh, 1,000% agree. What I meant by that was mainly just that when you have a lot of when you're first starting out, I think you just honestly, you just play to your strengths. If you're young, you say, hey, yeah, I don't have the wisdom, but I'm willing to do whatever it takes, work hours that maybe as you're older you won't do, or whatever the whatever you need to do to get that job. And I agree with you. Like Mark Williams, as a 44 year old, could kick the Mark Williams, who is 21 in terms of knowledge and building, it won't even be a contest, right? Like, someone should hire me today. That versus 20 years ago, there's advantages to every part of it. And absolutely sports analogy, right? Like a Tom Brady, like he kind of said, you know, as he retired in his 40s, like, Man, if I could play in a 21 year old body with the knowledge I have now, like, I'd be unstoppable. And so certainly, the wisdom, and I agree with you, especially like in the trades or in the builders and electricians and plumbers, and we're seeing such an attrition of I think it's like, for every seven electricians that leave, only one take their place, and numbers like that. And so we're seeing a huge departure of intellectual capital and how to do things right. And I am encouraged that people are going into, I don't know the actual numbers, but I feel like so I see so many young people in architecture, at least locally, here in Minnesota, we have a very strong architectural community here and designer so I feel like that is really strong, and a big part of what I try to do on the podcast is to get more entrepreneurs into the trades, because at the end of the day, we still need someone to assemble everything, and definitely, definitely need the knowledge. As you mentioned, I like the gray hairs. For me, it was easy because I immediately knew I don't know the answer, but I'm going to find 10 people that do, and we're going to solve it as a team. And so I as you Yeah, it's no wonder that those older, famous architects kept on producing such great work, right, right. So in
Nancy Weinman 38:26
Sedona, there's a lack of trades. And so during COVID, I think the tile die. He's he has since retired. And I was quite serious, and I said, Rod and Bill, the contractor, I go, we should start some side at some sort of trade school or something. I mean, can't we just, like, get people, get 10 people in on a day and show them what it takes to butter the side of a tile and put it down. Like, who does that? Nobody has an interest in doing that. It's kind of sad. And it's like, you know, I would do that, but I think it would take another lifetime, because I think I got enough going on, but more of that does need to happen. So my way of helping is to encourage, you know, young women to get on the job site or to understand, maybe it's not even what you need to know on the job site, but the the projects these days are very much more complicated than they were in the past. There's lots of different levels. A lot of things happening. I had a meeting this week where a power pole is going to move, and it got complicated because where it could move was based on other people signing off, and then the easement that was shown on on the Public Utilities drawings was different than what the easement had, that the city had, which was different than what was surveyed. And so we were in a meeting trying to resolve all this, and I thought to myself, you know, a woman's place in this meeting, it means it makes, makes no difference whether I'm a woman. Or a man, or whatever, we're solving this together. I'm not saying that the woman has to be the guy that can the person that can go hike up on the pole or take the pole down, or any of that. There's just, there's a lot of levels of expertise that's needed in the construction world today. It doesn't matter what gender you are. You just need a good head on your shoulders. If you have an engineering background or an architectural background, terrific. But to your point, if you can collaborate and work with people and find solutions together, and sometimes, for me, that's where the creativity comes into play, that's what we really need, is more people figuring out the nuts and bolts before we start even going out on the job site. Do
Mark D. Williams 40:45
you think so? You mentioned a few times that I want to talk a little bit more in detail about this. Walk me through. What does mentoring, you know, women in construction or architecture, what does that look like? Is that? Is that a formal program? Do you have a few people that you are you teaching? Are you having set calls? Are they shadowing you? Like what does that look like? So
Nancy Weinman 41:05
it's it's relatively new. But for instance, I went down to Phoenix and talked at the National Association of Women in construction. And there are women that have jobs in construction, and maybe they don't know how to get to the next level of their job, so talking them through it not so much what to do, but more of the attitude of what they should project in order to get that higher level position. And some of that is is very simple to me, it's almost motherly, like just to believe in yourself. Just sometimes people just need to hear that, or they need to hear that you should wear your hair differently, you know, or you should be okay looking like a woman going on a job site, you don't have to put on all of the gear to hide that you're a woman, you are a woman. And so there's lots of women now that are very proud to be women, and they might wear their hard hat with a dress or whatever to an event, and you see a lot of that, and it's like, are we breaking boundaries or the boundaries still there? I think there's a lot of us sort of like working those boundaries, and I do believe in 20 years, they will be gone. So I think it's just diminishing the boundaries.
Mark D. Williams 42:38
This episode is brought to you by adaptive if you're still chasing checks and juggling spreadsheets, it's time to upgrade. Adaptive is revolutionizing how builders get paid with AI powered bill pay, automated draws, one click payments and built in Lean waivers, Faster Payments, fewer headaches and total visibility. Adaptive takes care of the back end chaos so you can focus on what you do best building. We've used adaptive for two and a half years, and trust them to keep our projects moving and payments flowing. Learn more at Adaptive dot build and simplify the Pay Process today. For more information, you can also listen to episode 10 and episode 15. You're in a very unique position, having had a multi decade career, especially with where you started, what the only woman project manager at Macy's only one of 3% in architecture. What have you seen change from when you first started and compared to the opportunities and what you're seeing now? Like, what is the message that you tell the people that you're mentoring about what they should be looking for and striving for? So
Nancy Weinman 43:38
this morning, I went to a talk, and it was by a woman and a man, but they were both from IDF, and they were, you know, part of the army in Israel.
Mark D. Williams 43:52
What I'm not familiar with IDF. What does that mean? So,
Nancy Weinman 43:54
it's the defense for Israel. Okay? So they were talking about and she became a photographer. So here she is. She's a military because in Israel, the men and the women have to go to the military. She decided to expand what she was doing with photography so it helps tell everybody the story of what's going on. But I was telling her before I left, I said, I'm going to go do a podcast talking about women and construction and how and so I go, I give you kudos to be a woman in the military, until you walked into military operations. How did that feel? Do you feel like there's boundaries? Are you cutting the boundaries? Like, where do you feel we are today? And she goes, kind of all of the above. It's, you must do it in Israel. But then the fact that they're actually it's, we may be walking on a construction site, but other people are walking into a military operation, and she's like, there's really no difference between us women and the men. We just feel like, once you feel like you can do this, you don't. Don't think about your gender. You're just like, it has to be in your head that you can do this. I mean, this is how we get everything done in life, right? So I think that for me to mentor, and what I can help people with is really the level of confidence that you have on your with yourself, and how do you achieve that? So just to give you an example of, you know what I talked about in one of my talks is like, you should really know what's in the documents and the specifications like that is a source document of what's being built. So if you're really not that aware, or you haven't read them, or you can't read them, that's your source. Next time you walk onto the job site, and you understand you don't have to memorize or know all of the documents, but you have to know where to go if there's a question. So you have to be able to figure out the research. You have to be able to figure out who to pick up the phone and talk to to answer your questions, and you have to be okay with not knowing everything, because there's just too much between you and I, we couldn't know everything that there is to know in in the in the area that we're in, right? It's impossible. I
Mark D. Williams 46:06
often joke with my staff that so my Leah helps me with all my marketing for the curious builder, and Angie is on my mark williams custom home side. And my joke with both of them is, men don't read. They're terrible readers. I can't tell you how many times we'll send an email, we'll send a plan. It'll say, bid this, do this. Here's the file, here's whatever. Don't call me. Don't call Mark Williams. Call Angie. She has all the answers, everything. And what do they do? They call you. They don't read the email. And I'm just so frustrated. I'm like, Guys, we are literally telling you what to do, and you haven't, you're right. And so anyway, my joke is like, I think men are illiterate. Now this is apologies, massive stereotype, because there are many very intelligent, thoughtful men, but I'm a man, so I can say this. It's just like they just just reading is not their skill. I
Nancy Weinman 46:53
think that we don't want to put characteristics on any gender, but we, us women, tend to be more detailed and more patient, and sometimes we'll just take the time to understand things, because we feel like we have to understand everything to walk into that meeting or to walk into that job site. And if that's what gives women confidence, good for them, they should do that.
Mark D. Williams 47:17
Yeah. Shout out to Angie on my team. We've just hired her. She's only about four months in, but she is killing it, and she's our project coordinator, but her follow up, her detail. I wanted a organization, right? Yes, that's I can sell all day long, and strategy or not strategy, but like structures and systems, they're only as good as the people that help support them. And I've been really blown away at Angie's ability to I wanted one thing that I've been passionate about over the last year. I'm still mapping out. I have a long way to go here, but I feel like home, building, construction, architecture, design, all of it could use a huge dose of hospitality. And I spoke about this previously on the podcast. There's a book called unreasonable hospitality. It was my favorite book last year, and it was really all about it was on the restaurant. I'm blanking on the name of it, but it was on Madison, Fifth Avenue, and it went from one star to five stars. And I feel like if I was to say hospitality, it'd be like hotels and restaurants and concierge and all that stuff, like home building has such a unique ability, or it's so intimate, and you're so into people's lives, that is where hospitality should really just shine. And yet, most people, most businesses, myself included, have not focused because, hey, I'm building the house. I'm focused on this. I've got a managed budget, say, but like, I think the what people really respond to is thoughtfulness. They respond to being listened to. And so anyway, reason I'm going on this with my little soapbox here is Angie. The reason, the main reason I hired her was as a client liaison, to work with the client and make sure all the meeting notes before and after. It's the little stuff, but you even mentioned it before. It was like, call people back in a timely manner the day after we meet, a recap is sent. This is what we talked about. Like, this isn't rocket science. This is just
Nancy Weinman 48:57
not rocket science. So even more amazing is there's, there's a new app, otter.ai, and it just follows you around and does
Mark D. Williams 49:05
your minutes. I use it all the time. It's amazing. I did it today, actually, I had in my pocket, and I, you know, record the entire remodel meeting, and then I'll send it to to my team, and then, you know, they can send it as a recap, and the client's gonna be like, Whoa. I
Nancy Weinman 49:20
know, but the hospitality piece, and I think the piece that you're talking about, is something that can't be captured by any IA, anything, because what you're saying is you really understand your client. You really understand maybe what it's going to feel like to go through this portion of the hallway or to take this corner and where the door should be, and where the cabinet should be, and how it's going to feel when that client walks through, is that what your client is looking for? So that's a whole symbiotic thing of understanding, listening to your client, following through, giving them what they want. But it's almost like I do a lot of like botanical. Drawing. And when you do art, it's not that you're a great artist, it's usually that you're a good person, that your visual skills to look at something before you draw it is the strength. So when an artist draws a tree, it's not that he's so great with his hand, he's better with his eye, because he really saw that trade before he put it down on paper. So it's the same thing with clientele, like, you're better working with your client if you really get them. And how do you get them? You have to listen to them. That's a huge piece. And there's like, Otter can maybe write down what they said, or something like that, but they also maybe have to be prompted to tell you what they want, or maybe they don't know what they want, and you have to come up with specific questions like, What is the thing that makes your home feel like the home you grew up in? You know, that's a good question to ask somebody, and it might be at the entrance I get this feeling of home or in my kitchen. And so how do you get that information out of people? I think that is important. I
Mark D. Williams 51:08
agree. And the thing that I'll say about otter and some of the Note taking is that if half of your brain is consumed with jotting down everything that they say is blocking some of the creative process Yeah, totally. And some of, like, of really listening, I think it's like, and some of us, I'm not discounting note taking. I think sometimes when you're taking notes, the act of writing it down helps solidify it in your
Nancy Weinman 51:31
brain. But it is hard to do it when other people are talking. It's very difficult. Yeah,
Mark D. Williams 51:36
I've actually, I struggle with listening. I'm my I've found that even having the podcast, not too surprising, probably has made me a better question asker, a better listener. But even like an interview like this, I'm obviously listening to what you're saying, there is a part of your brain as an interviewer where you're thinking about where the conversation is going to go, and so you want to give the audience kind of a guided tour sometimes. And it's volleyball, it's ping pong, it's tennis, it's going back and forth, right? Someone holds the ball too long. All those ideas sort of, say, stored up, and it's hard to have them come out in a nice, linear path, at least for somebody like myself, I probably suffer from ADHD, so it's hard sometimes for us to keep it in. And I have found that if I just have a note paper where I can write down, it allows me to relax a little bit, because then I know I don't have to hold on to it. I can just leave it there. That's
Nancy Weinman 52:24
a very good idea. That's a very good idea, and it would probably help myself and others from interrupting, because it's like, well, you don't want to lose the idea, but you're right. If you wrote it down, it might be a good thing to do, but I was just going to say so, like, but when you talk to people and you understand what they want, and how do you get there at the beginning, by asking these questions or feeling them out. I mean, what does that really mean? Because that's of great interest to me, because I think that when we build somebody's house, we don't want them to go through the whole process and at the end and go, I don't know if I like that. It's like, you want them so involved, like, even when I'm designing a house and people say, Well, you're a designer, it's like, it's not my design, it's our design, that they should take some ownership. They must take ownership or they'll never be happy with the end result. So listening and taking ownership while you shepherd people through the design process or the build process, as you may bring success,
Mark D. Williams 53:27
I believe that, well, 100% I think it's also by showing someone you've listened even a simple thing, someone tells you something like the name of their child, something simple, but something that's meaningful, obviously. And then, in a meeting forward, rather than referring to your children, you say, Hey, I mentioned you mentioned that your son, Zach, is interested in there's a connection there. When you say people's names, obviously there's that old book. Some of our audience is probably too young to know it, but you and I know it. But you know how to win friends and influence others by Dale Carnegie, my grandpa, that my grandpa gave me and and, but I remember that the name, it was argued that your name is the most important thing in the English so the word Nancy, Nancy means a lot to you because it's you, it's who you are. Now doesn't mean I understand you, or know you, or any of those things, but like that name like pricks your ears, right? You could be in Macy's walking around, someone could yell, Nancy, and you're gonna flip your head around. And so, of course. And so anyway, I think there's all these little, tiny little things about our humanity that comes out in construction and architecture and design, and it's really assembling the team. Because I understand there's some science, right? There's math that happens in architecture. I get it. There's math that happens in numbers, but, man, I think there's a lot more art than people realize in it's in the nuance. And so what you're really asking is for the two worlds to collide. Can you know, science and art? How does it interact? And I think they reinforce each other,
Nancy Weinman 54:44
yeah, I think that's the beauty. I mean, that is going back to tension. That's the tension, right? And it's, it's managing that tension and getting the best of both worlds. I mean, that's what value engineering is. How do you make something cheaper? And you never knew it happened. That's because you could take the engineering and maybe take some compromises, you could take the art piece and maybe take some compromises, and at the end of the day, it's still a beautiful structure, and nobody knows what was missing or how you saved the money, because you did Value Engineering. You mentioned
Mark D. Williams 55:19
earlier that you I don't know if you still practice, if you're a cellist now, do you find that there's relatability between architecture and design and music? Definitely,
Nancy Weinman 55:29
definitely, they all have rhythm, right? Architecture has rhythm. Light cast shadows that move. There's lots of things that go together, my latest my latest activities I've been working on. And just as a you know, like you, I like to learn a lot of different things. So I'm teaching myself copper plate calligraphy. I just finished modern calligraphy.
Mark D. Williams 55:54
I don't even know what copper plate calligraphy even what does that mean? You would
Nancy Weinman 55:59
know if you saw it, I don't have an example here, but it's a very elaborate type of calligraphy.
Mark D. Williams 56:05
Why did they say copper plate? Because
Nancy Weinman 56:08
it's what was used back in the 16th century, and they would etch it in the copper as before they ran it off as a document. Yeah. So it was like So certain things are very straight and specific, and I think that the reason why I like that is probably because I did a lot of hand drafting in the past, but I'm doing that and I'm learning golf at the same time and learning Pilates, and suddenly I'm seeing ovals, and my Pilates ring and in my swing was like a C, and like all these things, like everything is related. I think it just depends where your brain takes you. But music and art, I mean, that's that's the thing for sure. Man,
Mark D. Williams 56:48
Renaissance woman, indeed, we're not we're gonna need a scroll that's like 1000 feet long for all your hobbies and accomplishments. Is amazing. What you mentioned, you're going back to New York here as we land the plane of this interview, how much time do you spend designing and building in Arizona versus New York? How do you manage most
Nancy Weinman 57:07
of my work is in Arizona now, but I just completed, actually, it only took 90 days to build it. So I just completed a small condo on the beach, which is 400 square feet, and just did a gut remodel with an amazing contractor. We collaborated like nobody's business. And so I'm so excited because it's complete, and I'm gonna fly into New York and go there the very next morning to go check it out. So I can't wait to touch all the surfaces, and it's like, Yes, we did this. So that's really exciting and but even more exciting, in about 14 days, we're going to be going back to Japan, which we my husband and I have been to before, but we're going again. And there's a particular art island that's outside of Tokyo, and there's some amazing sculptures and Japanese art. Everything about Japan is art, really, but super excited to take another trip there.
Mark D. Williams 58:08
That's exciting. We use it when you travel. I mean, like so many creatives, you know, we're inspired by the things that we see, touch and feel. It sounds like you've been to Japan before. Is this more of a personal nature? Is personal and work kind of intertwined, so you can't even separate them or like, what do you hope to gain out of this couple weeks in Japan? It's
Nancy Weinman 58:26
definitely personal. I'm really looking forward to going to the paper and ink stores, because they're pretty serious about their calligraphy there. But just the the esthetics of Japan, because it's so minimalist, we're gonna stay in very ancient places where you sleep on a tatami mat, and that's usually after you've had dinner on the floor, and there's like nothing in the room except a roll of a grass mat and perhaps a pillow. And it's just what we can live without, and what kind of calmness it creates for you when you don't have a million things around you. I just think the esthetic is very powerful, powerful, but like, less is more.
Mark D. Williams 59:06
That's actually on our family list. Actually, I think maybe even next spring, we've bumped it up. My wife and I are both fascinated with Japan, and we have young children, and people say it's just amazing travel with your kids. And so I think the plan is to bring the whole family over there for a couple weeks. At some point, I just, we love the food, the culture. I don't know that much about it, other than I just really enjoy it, and it looks like a place I want to go.
Nancy Weinman 59:28
Well, if you go, when you go to Tokyo, there's, like, I don't know, eight times more people than in New York City. Like we live right in the middle of midtown, close to Times Square, and it looks like nothing. You go into the subway in Tokyo and there's not two exits. There's like, 24 like, you need to know which direction, like, you can't meet somebody at the entrance or the exit. It's very complicated and yet so clean and so organized that it's it's a great tutorial on management of everything in life.
Mark D. Williams 59:59
Yeah. Want to get to the countryside for sure, and get out of the hustle and bustle, I'm sure enjoy, for sure, but just the food I know. I think that's what I love about travel. I love how I think the world in terms of design. Do you feel it used to be when you first designed? I'm guessing it was like Architectural Digest and a few printed magazines, or wherever you got your or you go to that you mentioned earlier, or at least, I guess I read about it MoMA in New York, or museums and local and we can get inspired by nature, all kinds of things. But I feel now with Instagram and internet and there's just we have so much information at our tips to be inspired by. Do you think I don't know if it replaces true inspiration of like going to places, because it'd be very tempting to just use images just be inspired by but if everyone's looking at the same images, it gets it almost narrows down. Do you think I know? I guess what I'm asking. You
Nancy Weinman 1:00:48
can do some of that with images. I think the big difference is when we like, we went to India for 33 days. When you come back to New York and you meet an Indian person, you get them like you don't understand other cultures unless you've been there for at least a couple weeks. So you get them, you can look at different Asian people and know which one is Japanese, whereas before, maybe you wouldn't have known until you spent two weeks in Japan. So just Italians are, Italians are vivacious and loving. And it's like, how do you know that? Well, if you go to Italy and come back, you really understand that, right?
Mark D. Williams 1:01:28
Oh, for sure. How you oddly specific 33 days in India. Why 33 and not 30 or what's I think it's
Nancy Weinman 1:01:35
just the way it worked out. It was supposed to be around 30 days.
Mark D. Williams 1:01:41
Yeah, that's great. Well, I appreciate, want to respect your time and the audience's time as well. I appreciate you so much coming on the podcast for your team reaching out to come on the curious builder, yes, and we'll have all your details in the show notes. If anyone is in Arizona or the do you one thing we didn't talk about? I mean, you design all over Arizona or specifically around Sedona, or what's a good fit for you? Specifically
Nancy Weinman 1:02:01
Sedona, I have something that's pending in Scottsdale, but specifically Sedona for for the moment, and there's plenty of beautiful tracks to do that in. Yeah,
Mark D. Williams 1:02:12
wonderful. Well, thanks again for coming on, and thanks again to the audience for tuning in. Again to the curious builder podcast.
Nancy Weinman 1:02:18
Thank you so much.
Mark D. Williams 1:02:21
We've had the podcast now for two and a half years, coming up on three, and I get questions all the time through DMS, on Instagram, emails as well as to our account. Maybe we've had a guest on where a question has come up that really triggers an idea for you. If you didn't know, we have a one to one consulting session through the curious builder platform on our website, curious builder.com or curious builder podcast.com you can click on the one to one and schedule one hour of my time, and we will simply just sit down, have a virtual call, and we'll talk about any business idea that you want, marketing, branding, operations, really, anything that helps you and helps your business. Maybe it's a guest that you had on that you want an introduction to. Maybe it's a guest we've had on and they brought up something about scaling or hiring and firing or anything that might resonate with you as a business owner, that you want to expand and talk on. We'd be happy to do it again. That can all be found in our consulting page. It's really been really enjoyable for me as well to work directly with people. We've had probably 10 or 15 of these over the last year. A lot of times it's contacts or people to set them up in a way that makes them successful. And so if you're interested in that, please reach out to us at the curious builder podcast.com thanks for tuning in to curious builder podcast. If you like this episode, do us a favor. Share it with three other business owners. The best way that we can spread what we're doing is by word of mouth, and with your help, we can continue to help other curious builders expand their business. Please share it with your friends. Like and review online and thanks again for tuning in.
1:03:47
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