Episode 125 - “Pattern of Life” Design, Wooly Mittens & the Heart Behind Chisel Architecture
#125 | Sara Whicher and Marcy Townsend | Chisel Architecture | “Pattern of Life” Design, Wooly Mittens & the Heart Behind Chisel Architecture
When you combine Midwest warmth, architectural soul, and a passion for people—you get Chisel Architecture. In this episode, Mark sits down with Sara “Wooly Mittens” Whicher and Marcy Townsend to talk about their client-first design philosophy, their origin story, and what it means to design for a client’s real life—not just their Pinterest board. Plus, why naming a home might be the most powerful design move of all.
Listen to the full episode:
About Sara Whicher and Marcy Townsend
Sara Whicher navigates design using her superpowers of sensitivity, intuition and hand drawing. A natural curiosity and love of listening to stories guide her powerful interpretation of a homeowner’s story with a twist.
Marcy Townsend embraces the intricacies of custom home architectural design and how design supports well-being. A deep understanding of design discipline and the human experience in the home environment allows her to be laser focused on what really matters.
Resources:
Visit Chisel Architecture’s Website
Visit Chisel Architecture’s Instagram
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Sara Whicher 00:05
She said it's the lesson you need to learn is that this architecture is really not about you, it is about the client. So early on, I learned that, like, because I'm gonna take this away from you, you were designing for me, but it's not yours. Yep, it's mine. Today,
Mark D. Williams 00:31
on the curious build podcast, we had chisel architecture on we had Sarah and Marcy, and it was great podcast. I love talking to people that you know really well. The chemistry is really good, and so you can really dive a little deeper on their business practices. I really enjoy talking about their pattern of life, and it was really just kind of a founding principle of how they started their architecture firm, and how it influences how they design homes. Incredible people. Without further ado, here is Chisel architecture. Welcome to the curious builder Podcast. I'm Mark Williams, your host today, I am joined with chisel architecture. We have Sarah Witcher and Marcy Townsend. Welcome ladies, thanks for coming in. Thanks for having us. So we have a lot. So we've gotten to know each other pretty well over the last four six months already. Yeah, probably six months. Time flies. So we're doing a development in Orono, for those that are listening, that are in Minnesota, we've done a lot of publicity for honey Hill, which is a development that aspect builders and I are doing, and you are one of the three architects that we chose to work with there. And so we've designed a cool home, a couple homes together, the honey crisp and the dragon. And maybe we'll start there, because one thing that immediately drew me to both of you was a your warmth and personality you have as people, but it really shows up in your architecture. When we were first sitting down to kind of see how you operate and interviewing you, like it became very clear, like you're just very warm and hospital, like you feel comfortable. And I think I nicknamed you immediately, didn't. I called you wooly
Sara Whicher 01:51
mittens, right, right, right. So, because we had been working on a project, we shared a project with you called, you know, well, we were the wool and mitten. So, yeah, it stuck
Marcy Townsend 02:01
with you. Stuck with
Mark D. Williams 02:02
you, yeah? So it could be for both of you, but in my phone it pops up. It says Sarah Willie mittens, Witcher, so your male name is Willie Willie mitt. Don't worry. I'm pretty sure you know what you're gonna get for Christmas. Yeah, I know. Oh gosh. Anyway, amazing. So yeah, kudos to you. I mean, I think both Sean and Tom, the principles that aspect and myself, like we really appreciate. And it's not to say that, I would just say your warmth of character was so appealing, and a big part of what I do, you know, essentially, as a builder, in my normal job, when I'm not a podcast host, is, you know, is really a matchmaking, right? And so it's like assembling the team. And, you know, certain architects there, there's different things that are important. Like, your skill as an architect, obviously, is important, but honestly, a big part visit. I always tell my people that I work with, like, choose the team you want to spend the next couple of years of your life with. So therefore warmth of character is pretty high on my list, because it's like, you know, there are a lot of talented people, but if you could be talented, warm and inviting and charismatic and all these other things. Like, Sign me up. This sounds amazing, right? And so yeah, anyway, that was my first impression of the both of you. And I'd heard a lot about you from, you know, around town, from other builders and some of our peers. And so I was kind of excited, you know, to for that first interview. Now it feels like I've known you guys for a long time.
Marcy Townsend 03:20
Likewise, I mean, Sarah and I, we're, we've been at this a while, right, right? We met when 2025, years ago, when we were wee little interns at Sal architects. And so the point being, having done this for a while, we we want to work with people we enjoy being around. I mean, you said it best, Mark. I mean, we're so fortunate here in the Twin Cities to have so many talented architects and so many talented builders and so many talented interior designers. I mean, this industry here is really robust and full of talent, and that's a differentiating factor for us.
Mark D. Williams 04:06
I feel like, just having been out in Boston for the contractor coalition, I met with a number of builders, about 30 builders from around the country. In talking to some other builders, you know, their perspective of architects is so different than mine, it's I don't know if they just haven't worked with any or if there just aren't anywhere they are. And this, it wasn't in Boston. It was like, you know, North Carolina or South Carolina. It's like, most of them don't you work with architects. They work with either drafts people, which is fine. I've built a number of homes with drafts people, and that's fine. It's different nuance, obviously, and things like that. But it's, I do think, in having always, you know, grown up and built all my homes in Minnesota. You know when, when, when you're when excellence is all around you? You just think that's the norm. You know, I told my parents the other day, shout out to amazing moms and dads, but my mom and dad are incredible. But I thought everyone had amazing moms and dads and and then I as you become an adult, and you become a parent, you're like, Oh, wow. I had no idea. Just to. How, you know my mom and dad are, like, the Olympic level, like they're amazing mom and dad. So I had my mom lunch with my mom yesterday. She's like, Oh, thank you, honey. That's so nice of you. And but it's true. And so anyway, my point in bringing that up is like, I feel like being surrounded by so many quality builders and crafts people and designers and architects. I feel like Minneapolis is just got an abundance of wealth, and then you come to find out that we do win a lot of awards nationally with the architecture that's here is pretty cool.
Sara Whicher 05:26
Yeah, it's an amazing community. I mean, we are so lucky because there are a lot of architecture firms, design build firms, amazing contractors, interior designers, lighting designers, you know, all sorts of champions in their field. And we really, I feel like our Twin Cities area really has raised the bar with design all around architectural design when it's
Mark D. Williams 05:52
kind of interesting, as I've had other architects on I ask them, and I'll ask you the same question is, you know what percentage of your work is in Minnesota? Let's say within 50 miles of the cities, versus, of course, out state. And then, of course, it's called rural Minnesota, like the cabin country, things like that. And you know, some of them are like, 5050, 6030, or, sorry, 6040, so it's just kind of interesting how many architects work outside the state, and especially because not very many people have vacation homes in Minnesota. Meaning, like, very few people from Florida are going to be like, Oh, we want to winter in Minnesota. It's usually the opposite, right? So I always feel kind of bad that or not bad. I feel like, as a builder, we have to capture them when they're young, before they like, because nobody retires really, in Minnesota. I mean, it's a great community, right? But my friend Brad in Arizona, right? Most of his homes are transplants, or people are in so they get a lot of not only native Arizona people that are building, but they get so many. They get people from all over the United States, where, I feel like, if you're going to build a home or target people, they have to sort of be from Minnesota. However, as an architect, I would imagine that some of your clients that are here as they move to other states, they'll say, Hey, would you design our home in Florida or Tennessee, or, you know, these popular retiring places. So, yeah,
Marcy Townsend 07:04
we've done that. I mean, we have projects in Florida, but we literally have a client right now who primary home is in Florida, and we're designing them a cabin to retire in, and
Mark D. Williams 07:18
flipping the model so they're doing somebody they're
Sara Whicher 07:20
in Wisconsin, yeah, in Wisconsin, yep, yep, yeah, yeah.
Marcy Townsend 07:24
So we we see all kinds, yeah, and we do go all over. It's really about that personality fit. And one thing we're coming to realize, just based on who's contacting us, these people are nationwide. Our Website does a really good job of speaking to that certain demographic that maybe they've already been through the process before, and second time around, they learn that what is important is good design, but to also pay attention to that personality, that and that warmth of character, and there's a way that it comes across in in interacting with serenity. And we get
Mark D. Williams 08:15
that, I think the authenticity is that people care. I mean, you care, yeah, we can, and I think, and that's not to say that others don't, but like, also, you know, the way we emote, the way we show people we care. You know, obviously some people are more stoic. You guys can clearly see your emotions on your faces. Sarah, in particular,
Marcy Townsend 08:35
yeah, what you see
Sara Whicher 08:38
the same way I can. And with that said, I do want to say something, because it makes me kind of uncomfortable, but I am not a registered architect. I have a graduate degree, and I've taken all the development and I've taken three of the exams, but I've not. I'm, you can't call me a registered architect. I am only an intern, really, according to the AA or a home designer, but I just need to, yeah, you can't call no one can call me that. And I always like to be completely drunk. I heard about that.
Mark D. Williams 09:06
I appreciate that we've had a couple other home designers, as they call themselves, that they brought them on. And it's interesting because, and correct me, if I'm wrong, maybe we'll talk about this, because it's been about a year and a half since we've talked about it. Where, you know, I think the public at large calls, anyone that designs a home and architect, right? Which is not true. I think the best analogy that I can think of, mainly because my wife's a doctor, is, you've got doctors, you've got nurses, you've got, you know, oh, deals, yeah. I mean, so many different certifications, right? Find a nurse of 30 years, 40 years like, I guarantee that she knows a lot, yeah. And so it's not to diminish that. And so it's interesting, because I get a lot of clients ask me, you know, who do you recommend? And so it's up to me now to sort of not only illustrate the differences between different firms, but also make sure that, to your point, Sarah, that we're not telling them something that's not true, and it's really just most clients don't honestly care. And it's interesting because. The architecture field is sort of interesting, because it seems like it really celebrates commercial architecture and that there's not really great paths for residential architecture. Is that accurate? That's very Can you, can you speak a little to that? Because I think that's a lot of people don't understand that, and I think it's interesting and sort of confusing,
Sara Whicher 10:16
frankly. Well, I know when, when I graduated from graduate school, I went and interviewed with all the big I interviewed with all the big commercial firms, and a lot of my professors, though, happened to work in residential architecture, so then I had a big pull from Tim Fuller, Dale mulfinger, people come and work for us, but yeah, it but it was interesting going to see those big firms, because it just wasn't. It wasn't a good fit for me personally, because I am so personable. I'm here because I'm personable. And it's not just the how people say, it's just about business, just cut out all that. Just cut that all out. And it's not for me, it's the business and the personality. There's a big mishmash between that. That's a great word. Mishmash
Mark D. Williams 11:08
is a great one. I think also Minnesota, I think housing in general is such an emotional thing. I've mentioned this many times, other than your wedding, I think building a home is the most emotional thing that you'll ever, you know, choose to do, and I can't think of anything else other than, obviously, I guess family too, right? Having children, things like that, but ultimately, getting married. Think of all the time and effort and thought that goes into this idealistic day and then building a home, you know, a dream home, and into what you said earlier, Marcy, is that I have found that more often than not when higher end architecture is invoked, it's because people have built before and either were disappointed or related by the experience. I've never seen anyone in my 20 years where they've had architecture and gone back the other way. And it is sometimes hard to level someone up, mainly because it's a pricing thing that they don't understand. It's a little, honestly, it's a lot like cars. I mean, when you buy a Ferrari or a Lamborghini, you're making, you know, there's a brand, but, I mean, there's a lot of styling and a lot of art and nuance. You can buy a car for hundreds of 1000s less, but it's not the same car. And I think when you go into a highly architectural, detailed home like it feels different. And some people, their value statement is that matters to them, and some it doesn't. And I usually, for those that say it doesn't, they're not a good fit for me, because, you know, if they're looking for as big a home as possible, for as cheap as possible, it just doesn't really align with my value statements.
Sara Whicher 12:33
Have you ever designed a house? No. Have you ever, have you built your own house, like, physically? No. I mean, have you had, I mean, gone through the process yourself?
Mark D. Williams 12:43
Yeah, not with let's see here, early on, when I was first, I've been married for 11 years. I have I've remodeled a number of homes, but we've never built a new home since I've been married, I've done a few homes that were model homes. They weren't for me, interesting question I have. So I'm doing my first spec home now, in 14 years, I'm gonna do one over here in cottagewood, and we, I decided that I am not good at predicting what somebody will like, because it could be anything, and I'm really good with a person with a touchstone. So I decided that I'm gonna be my own touchstone. So I'm designed. So I am designing the home as if it is for my wife and I and our three kids. I mean literally on the plan. Probably won't publish the plan, but it'd be like May's bedroom, Simon's better, like everything about our lifestyle I am sort of putting into this house and and we love Scandinavian design, and so it's going to be simple architecture, simple lines, and even watching some stuff about all wood materials, all natural light. Anyway, these principles, it's we're going to design the house around a philosophy. I've never done that before. I know architects do this all the time, but so to answer your question, this will be the first house that I've sort of designed. Oddly enough, I won't live in it.
Sara Whicher 13:51
But what, what's interesting about that too, is that when we met you, and you know, we had you in the office for pattern of life, so we designed Dragon for you based on the imagery you showed us, and then everything that you talked about. So it's, it's so interesting to me now that we've had this discussion that but that dragon house is really about you and what you want. And I will Marcy, and I give you an A plus for being an amazing client, because you really, I mean, I know what right show the guns, but it takes a really good client is someone who is actually going to stay out of our lane, stay in your client lane, tell us what you want, and then back away. I mean, I can't even tell you the amount of times that you have said, Nope. That's up to you. Mercy and Sarah. I mean,
Mark D. Williams 14:48
I think I've always been a delegator, mainly because I don't, it's not that I'm not it, and it's also, you know, you know what you're good at. You know what you're not now, I will say that i You've asked it. If I've ever designed, I do enjoy the design. Ian process, right? I mean, after 20 years, I've seen, you know, every you know, and so many different things and but I guess the you know, I keep going back to the name of the podcast, the curious builder. I'm just a very curious person, so I'm always really interested to know, like, like your thought process, like, what goes into it, and when I can see it on paper, that's really interesting. And I can, I can and like, Oh, that's interesting how they did that. And so I'm just curious about, like, how you created that and how so I'm equally interested in letting you do it, because I can't, but I'm also equally interested to know, like, what are they gonna it's like, a surprise for me. Yeah, it's like, oh, I can't wait to see what it is. And I it's hard. I actually, I don't think about it deliberately, because it is annoying. If a client is like micromanaging your business, one of the hardest parts of being a cost plus builder, which I'm happy to do. But some clients, a lot of our clients, own businesses that but then they come into our business and try to run our business. It's like you're hiring me to make this a better experience for you. I'll show you everything you want to see. But like, the goal is for you not to like, I mean, I've done this for 20 years. I don't need to practice. You know, we're professionals, and now I and you want them to feel competent and comfortable, so part of it is just respecting the profession. And anyway, that's my value statement, yeah. So it's not everybody's evidently,
Marcy Townsend 16:14
well, we work with a lot of business owners as well. And one thing that, oh, I guess you could say we've learned is that you need to let people in. And sometimes they want to see how the sausage is made, but sometimes they don't. Once they've caught a glimmer of it, they realize, oh, wow, there's a lot that goes into this. And frankly, well, depending on the client, but a lot of them decide, oh, I don't have the time to track all the minutia. I mean,
Mark D. Williams 16:47
that's, frankly, better if someone can realize that, because, you know, that's what, that's why they hired you. And I like it if they're excited, like, if they want to see, like, that's fun, right? Like, doing it together. I mean, a team that that is really enjoyable. I think, I think just realizing that you're a team. And so I often tell people, someone said the other day, like, Oh, this is my boss. And I said, Oh, please don't call me that. I said,
Sara Whicher 17:09
we're part we're partners, partners. I don't, I don't like part of the team. We're part of a team, yeah, and that's
Mark D. Williams 17:13
really important. And really, I think, you know, even the like, somebody's home when they're building it, you know, no one home will ever be the same because, you know, the entire team is different every time, mainly because the client is different. Even if you worked on, even if you had the same architecture firm and same subs and same builder, every home is still going to be different because the client is offering you. That's that Keystone, that touchstone, that really, and a lot, I mean, the land and the client makes such a big difference in how homes change, and I think that's what keeps it interesting and fresh. I think my ADHD couldn't handle if I was building the same box, you know, over and over and over again. I think I would. I would lose my mind.
Sara Whicher 17:57
Two thumbs down. Two thumbs down. Boo. Well, it's interesting. We a long, long time ago, I worked on a project the land is amazing, you know, it was going to be this in a log home, just huge team put together, and the client said one thing. She said, when this is all said and done, when I open up my screen door, I want it to slam shut, because she wanted to have one of those coil, you know, those old fashioned coil, sorry, yeah, and then smack, yeah. And it just that was what really was kind of that little the pinnacle of the whole project. Everything kind of fell off of that, or was built off of that. Yeah, amazing. That's
Marcy Townsend 18:45
cool. Foundational concept, yeah, entire project,
Sara Whicher 18:49
yeah. So, you know people, you know so people tell us, yeah, a sound was so interesting. How
Mark D. Williams 18:56
do you so? And maybe this ties into pattern in life. I know you've mentioned that a few times, and we're talking offline before we started a little bit about how that's been informed. Well, let's just tell us more about that.
Marcy Townsend 19:06
Yeah. So that spring sound, that slapping screen door sound, that is one of well, it gets at the sensory experience of architecture, right? We talk about this process, this wedding, like process, and then what are you left with after the end of the event, wedding, you're left with your marriage, but you're living in this house, and what is your experience of this house every day of your life? And that's what we get at in pattern of life. Yes, there's a process involved. Yes, there's a very complicated, increasingly complicated process anymore of building a house. But what is your experience every day? Living in this house, and how does the house support it? We talk about the sensor, all five senses. We talk about, what do you want to see, what do you want to hear? What don't you want to hear? That's an interesting question to ask people, especially when they haven't even seen a single drawing from us yet. Ian, this
Mark D. Williams 20:24
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Sara Whicher 21:57
yeah, we have ice cubes dropping in the freezer. You know, some people are like, Oh, drives me crazy. That's
Mark D. Williams 22:03
actually a good question that should be on the intake form, because I've had now a few times where someone, you know, like the Scotsman, is a really well known Yes, but that thing makes a ton of noise cycling water, like once a day. It works really good in the basement on a concrete floor with a drain, right? But if it's on the main floor, that was very noisy, yeah, usually we plan
Marcy Townsend 22:21
for we planned for all of this, yeah, we had a client who didn't want to hear his kitchen oven fan kick on when they turned the oven off right, like
Mark D. Williams 22:36
we we. We had somebody that didn't want to hear water, and so we had to do cast iron pipes in the whole house. That was just really expensive.
Sara Whicher 22:45
You mean water, but like going through the, like the PVC pipe, yeah, yeah,
Mark D. Williams 22:49
which would be a lot. That would be way
Marcy Townsend 22:51
noisier, right? Expensive. And so knowing that up front, we could earmark budget for more than code compliant plumbing, at least in certain areas, because we do get that fine tuned in
Mark D. Williams 23:07
our design, you know. And one in particular comes to mind is they had a sump basket that was, you know, the sump baskets are so loud. And for those not familiar, some baskets basically, you've got, you know, subterranean water coming into your foundation, and you're pumping it out, and it's this, it's like, this really annoying thing. And like, you know, we do it every day. So as a builder, you sort of, but if you're sitting in a great room, especially if you're on Lake Land or a high water table, and it's going every minute, like, I can see why, it would annoy me, too. And so we had one, oddly enough, the home was up on a hill. It must have had some crazy water draw, or hydrostatic tension, or something going on the soil, because it was very unusual. Anyway, that was the one that we we had to put cast iron pipes all around it to to deaden the noise, and that did the trick. Now, what was funny is it would go out the house, and then the water would splash on the rocks, and then that annoyed them, and so then we had to pipe it down into a well, I mean, we're here to solve problems, but I wouldn't have even dawned on me to have asked that question, and maybe it went to and here's the thing, sometimes it doesn't even dawn on the client either, right? And sometimes, sometimes we don't know what annoys us until it annoys us. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of marriages that could probably suscum to that one. So, yeah, that's another podcast, yeah, called marriage
Sara Whicher 24:22
therapy. Yeah, marriage therapy, yeah, marriage therapy and marriage
Mark D. Williams 24:29
Yeah, not really that fine of a line. It's pretty much, you know, I always don't we had a, actually, we had a designer on, actually, right next to our studio, the sitting room, Kate Regan. So she actually, I had her on the podcast. Thing, she was like, episode four or five early on, and she actually went to school for psychology, and we were laughing at that really honestly. In the home building business, whether it's remodeling, the contractor, any of the subs, the designer, like honestly, a psychology major would be very helpful, because emotions are high. It's offended, very emotional experience.
Sara Whicher 24:58
Well, it happens all the time. You know, you. Get a couple and we say right out front, you're not gonna you're not gonna agree on everything, and that's okay. Let Marcy and I grapple with that. It's gonna be
Marcy Townsend 25:12
okay. But you're really good at reconciling two very disparate opinions and finding a space that can speak to both. And it's funny you bring up psychology, because when I was an undergrad, every chance I got, I took a psychology class, like all of my electives, and then in graduate school, I focused on basically applied environmental psychology. What does that mean? Exactly. Think of environmental psychology. How does one in one's environment influence how they feel, how they behave, their relationships, their mood, their general outlook on life. How does one's environment influence all of that? And I bring that into architecture every day. And it's funny, Sarah had a very different educational experience. She went to the U I went to University of Illinois. We didn't even know each other at the time, but we come together as interns, and we both have kind of this fundamental understanding, and then each of us are brought up in our careers. We never worked together on a project coming up, but we formed. We each formed this very similar set, set of appreciation for what the environment can do and how we like to design and yeah, like I said we when we were thinking about starting this firm, Sarah said, pattern of life. I can't even remember what we were exactly talking about. And I grabbed onto him, like we're trademarking that. Yeah. And luckily it was, it was available, and we've just grabbed onto it, and we've been developing it and developing it and and evolving it as we see it. It's kind of taken on its own life and people, it speaks to people
Sara Whicher 27:18
well, because it is, it's all it's really all about the client, right? Yeah, we are not living in this home. We live in it when we design it. But at the end of the day, it's not our home. It has to be about the client and all those teeny little minutia up to the big, huge moves, it just has to be about them. So that's what pattern of life. Everyone has Patterns of Life. Sometimes people think they want to have a different pattern of life. I don't want to have. I want to have a super clean kitchen. I want a white kitchen. Yep, I want to. I want to clean. I want all the junk, all the mixers and all that stuff behind doors. And you know, the truth of the matter is, some people just can't keep a kitchen like that. They just have stuff all over the place. That's how that's what their pattern is. And that's fine, right? So it's just so interesting. We try to guide them back, because we see people in their homes, and we talk about this, we kind of suss this out of them, like, Okay, how do you really live? What do you have out on your countertop, for an example? And so, you know, just gently guiding people back to your pattern of life is just fine for you. You are perfect the way you are. It's gonna be okay.
Mark D. Williams 28:36
What's sort of ironic about that is you have people that are, I'll take my wife, for example. She's very minimalistic. She could definitely get away with just open shelves, or so you would think, ends having everything stacked up. But here's what's funny is the person that can do it doesn't want it because to a minimalist seeing it up there, they want it behind closed doors. And the ironic part is the person like, you know, like, I'm not, I wouldn't say I'm really either. I'm probably, you know, somewhere in the middle, and I would appreciate that, but, and, but I'd probably be fine with trying it. And then it would just be, you know, it would be cluttery or whatever. And, but then you have the person that knows themselves very well, and they're like, No, everything has to be it's like, reminds me of like, Kelvin and Hobbs, like the doors are closed and like they're just waiting to explode. And then, you know, the mom comes in, it's like, boom, the closet explodes with clothes, right? You know, I can't wait till those teenage years. I'm sure that'll happen and but it's, it's funny how you would think that you people change, and I think you can, obviously, but you notice that even in children, like my daughter, is just naturally more messy. I go into a room and it's like a bomb went off. And Simon, my middle one, he's like, all his Legos are in like a perfect load. I mean, there's some innate ordering system that goes on in their brains. And I think in in terms of a homes, that's, you know, we're testing people. You know, big part of I feel like my job is, you know, probing questions and saying, you know, if this happened, how would you react? Or, you know, tell me more. You know, asking the. Questions and saying, you know, tell me a little bit more. I feel like good designers, good architects. I think architects are really good listeners.
Marcy Townsend 30:06
We have to be, yeah, we have to be there that there are some that maybe don't listen very well. And frankly, it's those architects that we find ourselves being, Oh, almost being stereotyped with, I mean, there are the star architects that you know, Frank Gehry, Frank would write quite a bit of his work up here, and other architects where, you know, every house that they do, you can tell they did. You can tell that's, you know, so and so or and that house is done by so and so. We, I don't know if we consciously try to be the exact opposite of that, but we try to totally remove ourselves and be almost a lot of question that we're, we're lobbed all the time is, What style do you do? And we don't have a style. Ian our training the way we were brought up in this industry, we've learned to appreciate a breadth of styles, and when you boil them all down, they each have their own characteristics and philosophies buried underneath them, and once you know those, you can bring them to life, and you can reinvent them according to whoever the client is. Do
Mark D. Williams 31:26
you find that sometimes you know, and I'll just speak for myself, like, you know, Minnesota is a pretty traditional clientele, and you know, I could close my eyes and build a traditional home, because I've done it for 20 years. Like, I know what I'm doing, there's a part of me that's like, I really just want to do a modern home, or contemporary home. I just want to do something different. I really love my traditional homes. I build a lot of them, but it's like, sometimes, as the artist, you just want to scratch the thing that you don't get to do very often. Do you find, as architects that that is, how often does that come up? Are you able to express yourself or maybe push a client in a little way? Or how do you do you find the same itch? I mean, do you find that like, oh, man, I'd really like to do something a little more French. I mean, the dragon has a little bit of French influence in it, right? So how do you navigate that as artists? Because you really get to dictate that more than I do.
Marcy Townsend 32:13
We're so fortunate right now. We have so many projects going on that our itches are being scratched.
Sara Whicher 32:19
Yeah? We go from modern to super. So you've got all of it, yeah, yeah.
Marcy Townsend 32:24
But you know, if we do find ourselves, you know, with an itch of some sort, personally, I try to, I use my personal time to scratch it. I don't, I really don't. So
Mark D. Williams 32:38
you'll design it. Just design it, Doodle it.
Marcy Townsend 32:42
We draw all the time, and that can be just as valid an outlet, I guess. But Sarah,
Sara Whicher 32:51
yeah, I mean, you can, you can, yeah, you draw it out. And sometimes you look at it like that's not them, yeah, but you burn it out of your system, like, Dragon, right? It was interesting how that name came about, which I know we want to talk about, but it just needed a dragon on top of the building because it was for you. Mark D Williams,
Mark D. Williams 33:14
Dragon. Man, yeah, that's funny. I don't know how I got that nickname, but I know, but
Sara Whicher 33:18
it just, it just it literally came out of our hands, and then that was it. And what is the name gonna be? Dragon? Oh,
Mark D. Williams 33:25
for sure, that for those that aren't picking up this. So we designed a home in honey Hill, the development we talked about earlier. And as we did this concept I was describing, you know, we gave, we had a few key images, but really it was more just describing the philosophy and the clientele and the person I thought would be attracted and let the land sort of dictate a lot of the form of what it was going to be. And then, evidently, my personality somehow came on Dragon, which is awesome, because it like, it definitely fits the house, which is funny, because I think Tom and Sean are like, Ooh, I like the dragon too. And there's this honey crisp, which is, let's go talk about the naming. How, how is it that you I love that you name every plan. I just think that's really clever. It's very appealing and has a great story to it. How does that naming convention happen? Because sometimes, you know, I don't know if it's analogous to like, sometimes getting somebody like a custom gift, like a client, can be hard, because it's you have to know them pretty well, and then there's a lot of pressure to make it really unique and different. And sometimes you it's almost like a writer's block. How often you get like a naming block, where it's just a name doesn't happen, or it just it jumps off the paper? Well,
Sara Whicher 34:31
this is a great question. So when I was in graduate school, I was working with Professor Cynthia Jarrah, who worked for Ian pay, and she would always take our drawings, you know, whatever we were working on, big architecture libraries. And she would so we would say, like be working at eighth inch scale. She would have us shrink it down to 16th of an inch, which is just itty bitty, itty bitty. And then she would. Would sit with you, you know, you do your critique with your professor, and she would take a red pen and draw on this teeny little diagram and just, you know, rip it to shreds, basically. And I asked her about that, like, Why do you always have a shrink everything down to 16th inch? And she said, It's the lesson you need to learn is that this architecture is really not about you, it is about the client. So early on, I learned that, like, because I'm going to take this away from you, you were designing for me, but it's not yours. It's fine, yep, it's mine. And so when I was working at salah, then I got to work a lot with Tim Fuller and Dale mulfinger, and we just started naming everything. You know, Dale was really good at coming up with these funny names and then and again. But that combination of naming things also was that taking it away, I am designing this cabin for you. We're going to name it something. When we give it back to you, you certainly can name it whatever you want. But right now, it's mine, even though I'm does and I'm but I'm designing it for you. Does that make sense?
Mark D. Williams 36:13
Yeah. I mean, you're leaving an imprint of yourself. I mean, I think any good artist leaves an imprint of themselves in their work. And I think there's, I mean, The con of that sometimes is like, you know, if you put your heart and soul into something and it's not appreciated, or it doesn't go forward, there's a little piece of you that sort of dies in that moment and and I think any artist, any craftsman, anyone that, honestly, anyone that cares about what they do, knows what I'm talking about, because I don't know how you could, I don't know how you can care about what you do and not put yourself in it. I mean, at the end of the day, the reason people are moving forward with you specifically is they feel a connection. They feel a responsive not a responsibility. They feel that you are going to bring out of them something better than they could do on their own. So it's this team thing, right? And so I think, as a someone that is aiding this craft process, like I love to get into a home. And, you know, it's a little bit you said before I do a good job of staying out. Well, we haven't built the house yet, but that's
Sara Whicher 37:07
your lane mark. Ian, literally, Marcy and I will, we will back down. I mean, we want to be there, but that's your lane and we respect that. But see,
Mark D. Williams 37:15
Ian, I'm tend to be an idea person, so I'd like to throw a lot of stuff at the walls, and then I sort of need my team to shoot it down. I talk about all the time on the podcast about starting business. Starting businesses that usually between Monday and Wednesday, I've started five businesses. It's Thursday and Friday. I got to shoot them all down, and then maybe one makes it to the weekend. And, you know? And so that's part of the idea generation, right? I mean, I can't create ideas the way you do on paper. In fact, someone asked me to do a bubble diagram for all this idea, and I started doing it like I just threw in the garbage. I'm like, I will give you all the input. I'll give you the philosophy. I'll do, you do the Bible bubble diagram. I'll be able to react to it. But, like, I don't know bubble diagrams. I just don't, it doesn't come off my hands very well. Yeah,
Sara Whicher 37:52
it comes out. It comes out in other ways. You just need someone to pick that up
Mark D. Williams 37:56
Exactly, yeah. So I'll be, I'll be your Keystone anytime you run into a roadblock. So, yeah, the naming thing is super interesting, and I think that people identify with that as well. I imagine a lot of clients have any funny stories where people are like,
Sara Whicher 38:09
Yeah, well, a really funny one is, we've been working with Burnside lodge up in Ely, Minnesota, and the owners, Lonnie and Lou, have been working. They have a they have the cabin that they live in when they're there. But they also have this other cabin, which now they're they kind of call it the summer cabin, and they have been messing around with it for probably 10 to 12 years. It's a log cabin. It's been added on to a couple times. You have to take a boat to get there. I mean, it's super charming. Up in Ely, the topography is all stone. So it's a wooden house that sits on top of the stone. Anyway, Lou and Lonnie and then their son have been messing around with it, you know, should we do this? Should we do that? And anyway, we did some design work for them. Yeah, and yeah. And the name we came up with was Tinker town, because Lou, just Lou and his son just tinker around so and we were super nervous about putting, you know, like, how funny are they going to be? How funny are they going to think we are? Anyway, they loved it. Yeah, it's the perfect name tinker. I
Mark D. Williams 39:19
mean, the naming is just really powerful. I'm really intrigued. It makes me want to do it. You know, for all projects that we have,
Marcy Townsend 39:25
yeah, oh, it's so much more interesting than scheme a,
Sara Whicher 39:29
yeah, scheme B, oh,
Marcy Townsend 39:31
for those that have
Mark D. Williams 39:38
been listening to curious builder podcast. You know how much I love the contractor coalition Summit. It's been the single biggest force multiplier in my business over 21 years. We're excited to announce again that we're coming back to Chicago November 7 through the 10th. All the details can be found at the contractor coalition summit.com and under the promo code for a $2,500 discount, type in curious. Builder. Here we'll see in Chicago. This episode of The Curious builder is brought to you by Olive and Vine socials. If you're a builder, a designer or an architect looking to grow your brand without dancing on Tiktok or spending your whole life on social media, listen up. Olive and Vine socials specializes in Pinterest marketing, blogging and email strategy for luxury home brands. They help you turn your beautiful work into a strategic SEO driven content that drives real traffic and connects you with your ideal clients without burning you out ready to grow smarter and not harder. Visit olivien socials.com and tell them the curious builder set you just so you know, I've been working with Alyssa over at Olive and Vine for three years. She helped us launch the podcast. She's helped us grow our brand at Mark Williams custom homes. I could not do what I've done without her help, and I'm more than happy to announce that she's our latest sponsor for the curious builder podcast.
Marcy Townsend 40:52
It's really important to us to not show our bias, and so you know, you can't put a scheme A, scheme B, scheme C and in front of someone, because that implies, okay, scheme C is the best one. That's the answer the question. That's the one I should pick. But if we put in front of them,
Sara Whicher 41:12
all right, Dragon and Colette, yeah,
Marcy Townsend 41:15
Dragon and Colette, which is what we put in front of you.
Mark D. Williams 41:17
I mean, Dragon all the way based on name, for sure. Yeah, this is not Levitt. We're not going. It's a very tragic ending. Yeah, so
Marcy Townsend 41:24
sad. One of my favorite clients, they were Die Hard friends, fans like they. They knew every Friends episode by heart. They didn't even need to watch it, but they had it on TV, and they had them, you know, and so we literally front of them, the one with the leather pants, that was the name of one of the schemes. That's really funny. And the one with the spray tan, that was another scheme. And then the one with the Thanksgiving trifle, that was another scheme
Mark D. Williams 41:54
that's That's amazing, yeah. And so, I mean, I think it shows a deep amount of empathy. And I mean, there's some skill involved with it. Naming, some people might find it overwhelming, but I think it really comes back to the warmth and the character and the thing that people feel. I think you found a way to sort of redirect it back. And it's just one small thing, right? I mean, but it's, you know, honestly, it's funny. It's the little things that make kind of a big difference. And obviously, naming something, you know, there's some ownership to it. I like that perspective that you had. And so I think you name anything, it's almost like, you know, if you found like a stray squirrel in the yard, and then before you know it, your kids are feeding it, and then they name it. Once they name it, it's all over. You own it. It's not happening. You have to
Sara Whicher 42:33
continue to feed that squirrel. That squirrel is
Mark D. Williams 42:36
yours. Tell us a little bit about that question earlier that I was kind of mulling around in my brain on how to ask it, but it seems, am I wrong? And the observation I've had with architecture firms, so many architects and designers work with other firms, as you guys both have, and then you decide to start your own firm. Let's talk a little bit about the business side of things. So there's two, usually logical progressions for building. There is, I mean, obviously there's a family heritage thing, so that's one two would be the remodeler that sort of grows, and then they get a new home, and they expand that way, and then you have, let's say, a high end builder that has a very accomplished project manager, and then they eventually break off on their own and they start their own building company, in a way they go very rarely that I can think of, do builders start with two builders, like two project managers? I feel like a lot of architects, they're partners, like they both worked at firms. So you hear the story all the time, and it's like they you know what? So tell us a little bit about that origin story. How? Yeah, what is your origin story? It's a hard question, but well enough of the easy ones, it's time
Sara Whicher 43:39
to know. I know, yikes.
Marcy Townsend 43:42
Well, we were
Sara Whicher 43:44
walking, and we were walking to get
Marcy Townsend 43:47
coffee, and finally, after years of joking about it, we're like, what if we actually did this? And I think what got us joking about it years prior is that architects in general, and just architecture school in general, there is this celebrated singular architect that is fully autonomous, and, you know, can do it all themselves, and that is almost like historic visual or stereotype of the profession that that we are taught in school. First of all, Sarah and I didn't have the nerve to do this. We're from six years old now. Should have done it a long time ago, but we didn't have the nerve to do it because we didn't think that we
Sara Whicher 44:46
were skilled enough well. And truth be told, like Marcy and I have very different strengths and weaknesses I have, you know, I and we recognize that in each other. You know, I have great respect. For mercy, and all of her skills and all of her weaknesses way
Marcy Townsend 45:03
better at a ton of things that it's just, frankly, I don't have to do anymore, no,
Sara Whicher 45:10
but we, but you know that it's, it's significant, because, you know, when you think about going out on your own, I never could have done it. I don't think you could have done it either. And so together, it just works really, really well. And so that's just acknowledging kind of your strengths and weaknesses, I think. And so it just, I
Mark D. Williams 45:34
mean, the analogy that comes to mind is a marriage, while husbands and wives famously I have gaps with each other. They also bring out the best of each other. Like, I know, you know, you know, I'm a better person because of who my spouse is. I hope she feels the same way. But like I was thinking about children, like raising I've never experienced raising, not that sometimes life makes you do this. But I'm saying like having children, you have someone else to reflect on. Like, how should we do this? It you reflecting ideas? And it's not easy. Like, it's really hard actually, but it's the closest analogy I can think of of like having a partner in a business that's not, you know, we've had other husband and wives on, we've had brother or father and sons on, and so it's always just kind of interesting to see partners on that choose to run a business. And I found later in my career that, because I've always kind of been a solar entrepreneur, I'm much more open and enjoying working and collaborating with other people. I mean, even honey Hill. One of the highlights is even though aspect design, build and market women's custom homes are two separate companies, I feel like Tom Sean and I, we spend a lot of time together. So I'm a fan of theirs. They're a fan of mine. And, like, I want them to build homes and so, like, there's no there's not really a challenge or a hierarchy there. It's more of a partnership, and it's really elevating, and it feels really good. I mean, honestly, it's been, it's what's born that these different collectives, and I know you guys are going to be part of our architect collective. We have a builder collective, a design collective, a design collective, an architect collective. And the whole idea is, entrepreneurship is a very lonely business. It's like an island, and so having other entrepreneurs, you know, and I like to use the word entrepreneurs, because you are business owners. Yes, you're you are in the architecture field, but you are an entrepreneur first, because if you can't, you can't make it, the dollars and cents work doesn't really matter how great of architecture you perform because nobody's paying you for it, and you still have to run higher fire, accounting, business, marketing. I mean, these are all things that we all have to do. And so I think the podcast, talking to builders in whatever platform it happens, is so helpful for all of us, because it a makes you feel like, okay, I know I'm not this difficult thing I'm experiencing is not alone in your case, you guys have, you know, partnership, you can say, hey, what do you think about this? So anyway, yeah, well,
Sara Whicher 47:45
it's interesting too. I mean, question right back at you, why don't you have a partner? Yeah? Oh, different kind of, kind of good one. Yeah, I just, you know, I would probably recognize something in yourself,
Mark D. Williams 47:58
yeah? So that's not the reason. Yeah, yeah. I've actually never thought about, I would, I would, that's a good question. I would probably be biased. My dad often said early on that partnerships are difficult. I think I've always been, I think I've always been biased against partners because of what I heard as a kid, that partners are, you're splitting half the profit. You also are splitting half the risk. Now, right now, we're doing a an investment piece with an investor. I'm pretty excited about it, because it left alone, I wouldn't do it and so in but we'll see. You know, I think it's, you're right. I think a lot of the sports I play are interesting. I guess I'm just a hot mess of black and white here, because I'm a little bit of, I'm a little bit of everything, because there's a part of me that I do a lot of solo sports, you know, ultra running or tennis is a little but then, you know, there's a lot of team sports, right? Like, I enjoy the camaraderie of biking with a group or running with a group, but yet the actual racing is done alone. And so it's sort of interesting. I kind of answer that question. It must be a psychology thing for me, because I the thing that I'm most encouraged by with, like the curious builder platforms and working with these other you know, builders, is that I get to spend a lot of time collaborating, so I really enjoy I think my number one thing I like to do is just be around people. But I think at the core of it, the reason I'm probably not a business owner with another person is I also have pretty strong will. There's pros and cons. I mean, I'm gonna, I'm gonna start, you know, seven businesses by Wednesday, and I'm my own worst enemy. But like, if I have to run that by someone else, like, it just kills my it kills my momentum. I'm fine with, like, some collaborative feedback, but at the end of the day, like, if I believe it, like it's gonna happen, like, I will, I I will just, I have the will I'm going to make it happen. Doesn't always make it a good decision, by the way. Like, I've made lots of bad decisions. I could be way further on in my career, probably with somebody else, but I don't know sometimes if you can escape your own personality. And so my dad used to always say there can only be one lead dog on the sled. And just thinking about like the Diderot, we have that, that lead dog out there. And I think all these analogies, you kind of have to see how they fit in your life, because sometimes that's true and sometimes it's. Resonate. Some don't, and sometimes, and I would say, different phases of your life, you know, there's certain parts of your life that you know, maybe you were better off one way or another. And I think on the back 40 of my career, I'm really more interested in collaborating with people. I just it's more fun. It's honestly, even if you make less money, like it's just way more enjoyable to be working and elevating other people, and I've that's really given me kind of a shot of adrenaline. So I don't know if that answered your question, because I don't, I don't, maybe I don't even know the
Marcy Townsend 50:27
answer. Maybe a solo entrepreneur, solo business owner, but you are fed by the collectives you run. You are fed by being around other people. You were, you were still kind of filling that vessel. Yep. Sarah and I, at this point in our lives, each of us mentioned before we want to be around people that we genuinely enjoy being around. You know, there was a time when we chased the best project, the flashiest project, the projects that would land on covers of magazines and win all kinds of awards and everything that was the ideal, but not, not anymore. We want to have a good time. I think
Mark D. Williams 51:08
that's interesting about that. I was just chatting with a builder about in the building world, we have the builder the Year Award here in Minnesota. It's a great honor. So I don't want to this to sound like it's not but you know, there's a part of your brain that was like, oh, once you win that, like, fasten your seat belt. You've got it made. The clients are we coming in the door? Like, this is Marketing Gold. You win one. It's like, chirp, chirp. Nothing really changes. And so it's like, if your pursuit, and that was never my pursuit, to be clear, but like, if your pursuit is like the hardware or the achievement, you've really missed out on the journey. It's the whole destination and journey kind of concept. And I think even, like the Olympics, gold, silver and bronze would be great. And who wouldn't like that? You know what the journey of getting there? I mean, if you're not enjoying the journey like you're kind of missing a lot in life. And most athletes, let's say, get to one Olympics, even if they got to a couple, it's like, what are you gonna say your whole life boils down to, like, two events like, that'd be kind of a sad state of affairs. And so I think that's true of it's important to be passionate and love what you do. And I think going back to the positive side, because there are some negative side with how emotional this business is, but the positive far outweigh it, the love the community, the fact that you get to literally see something physically be built we live in a lot. I do think manufacturing is really cool and like actually producing something, but, and this is not a knock against those that do say software development, and it's a great need for that. But, like, the biggest reason people get into construction, when you pull them over and over again, is it's tangible. You can literally walk through it, you know, live in it. And there's something deeply ingrained in us as humans and homes and lodging. But you know, obviously we call it the American dream, and I think everyone can have that dream. You don't have to just be in America. But there is something really special about home ownership, home creation. And so, yeah, obviously, I'm a little woo on it, because it's my profession and yours as well. But I, I think, you know, housing is such a phenomenal thing that we get to be a part of, yeah. So what are you seeing, you know, kind of, how is this last year gone? And what are you seeing down the pipeline? Like it's been really slow on our side here in Minnesota. I talked to other builders. Some are busier than others, but obviously, you know, interest rates, election years are kind of wild. I always say design, whatever's in the design bucket tells me what the future is going to be like. And I noticed, I knew, I knew there was going to be a huge slowdown for me, because our designs really dried up fourth quarter, third and fourth quarter of last year, and first quarter and so, you know, it takes, you know, these homes take probably anywhere from three to six months in proper design and selections before they get back on. So that design retainer really starts the process again. What are you seeing on your side? Yeah. So
Marcy Townsend 53:40
it's been really quite remarkable how I would say we're talking quarters, first quarter, second quarter of last year, we started getting inquiries from people out of state wanting to build cabins or lake homes up north, or there was one in South Carolina. I mean, so they're not all up north, but these are second homes from people who aren't necessarily in Minnesota. Say they were about 5050, new versus remodel, but they weren't local. And now this quarter alone, 2024, this quarter, we are getting more inquiries on new builds here in town. So I don't know what that indicates. We have one builder we work with who swears by the election year cycle. Every election year, things are going to dry up. And that's just how it is. You just got to ride
Mark D. Williams 54:39
it out. I agree. I mean, it's been my experience. I really despise the six months into an election because it just is so theatrical and and just even if it's not as theatrical as this particular one is, and by time this actually, by the time this episode airs, the election will be over, thank goodness. And, but anyway, people just really clench in uncertainty, yeah. And
Marcy Townsend 54:58
so even the people. Who maybe aren't dependent on interest rates. Or, you know, where that it's not a direct factor, just the sense of unease that comes people are very slow at making decisions, big decisions. You know, when it comes to their home, it's in the big decision category.
Sara Whicher 55:20
It's a huge Yeah, yeah.
Marcy Townsend 55:24
But that's what we're we've seen, and what we are seeing right now. So there's optimism. Can
Mark D. Williams 55:30
I think different? I talked to a lot of builders from around the country, certain places that just game. I have a lot of people in my builder 20 in the southeast, and they're just, they're just so busy. And obviously, unfortunately, with these hurricanes, they're pretty awful. On the flip side of it, obviously, there's gonna have to be a lot of homes that would have to be built. And what's sort of interesting about pricing, too, is, you know, supply and demand is, you know, in Minnesota alone, we're, I think the last stat I read was like, we're 100,000 homes behind what we need. And so as we've built less this year than we would have liked to as a whole. It's only going to make costs continue to go up. And I often tell my clients, yeah, and you know, it is, Minnesota does have a problem with cost, you know, one of the, one of the most expensive in the country. And I heard I saw a stat that housing first had put on that was like, let's just take Lennar polti, or whatever it is scheme B. And scheme B was the same home in Wisconsin, Iowa, South Dakota, Illinois, and Wisconsin and Minnesota was the most expensive home in those five or six states, and we were more expensive than by like, 30 or 40,000 than some of our neighbors. And I don't It's not material. Labor is a little bit more expensive here. I think because our cost of living is a little more cost of living is a little more expensive than the rest, but most of it would probably be taxes and fees and different city ordinances and whatnot, which is, I know they try, the lobbyists for housing are trying to stop that, but even that one example just shows how much more expensive it is to just get in Now we operate and you design at a higher level, but I would say our clients too are have held back. I mean, most of our clients, I'd say 60, 70% do pay cash. But when the market, plus what the market's been so high, if you can leave your money in the market and make eight, 10% if there's uncertainty, they're like, Well, it's pretty good deal. Just to leave my money in there, I don't need to do anything. And so it's hard to I have, I have three clients that have either put on hold or just decided to do nothing, and it's hard because unless there is like a stick and one of the biggest sticks, of course, it would be downsizing. So you have this big home and you want to downsize, that seems to be a half of a clientele. And the other ones would be like young families, like if you're having children, your needs are changing. And we do a lot of stuff. You know, I live in Minneapolis, and southwest Minneapolis, there are a lot of smaller homes, and it's like, once they if they get past two kids, most of those homes don't work. It's either a pretty big renovation or they have to decide, do I move and do I build right? And so I feel like life needs to sort of give you that stick to prod you, because just kind of lefty of your own. It just seems to me, it's rare that someone just builds a home to build a home. It's like there sort of needs to be a need or a cause. Do you feel that's true?
Marcy Townsend 58:11
Yeah, there's a there's a life event. I think what the psychology term is, but you know, is there, there is a life nudge involved that is the precursor to every project. We're getting a lot of clients who are down a downtown sizing but also wanting to the term is age in place. They want to build their forever home that will allow them to stay there as long as they want to. When they move out, if they ever move out, it's not going to because be because they need to. And so we're designing bathrooms, couples, bathrooms that are already framed up, and we know exactly which walls are going to come down when the time comes, because it's going to happen for all of us when we're either in crutches or we have walkers or we have wheelchairs, we're designing spaces with a plan for 20 years down the road when that day comes for them, and the peace of mind that that gives people, because we're all hearing about and we're, you know, sandwich generation here, we're taking care of our parents and children at the same time, and we're seeing how expensive it is to take care of those parents and trying to forecast that for us when the time
Mark D. Williams 59:49
comes. I think we do a lot with even young families, right? You stack the classes for a future elevator, right? You know, an elevator is not that expensive. Let's call it 40, 50,000 to rough it in. It's like eight or nine. 1000, 10,000 let's say, you know, that's very inexpensive insurance that can be designed around for the future. Or you could do what we're doing on the dragon plan. Have a sauna in the elevator, right? Which is really a game changer. Inside joke, yeah, yeah. That was pretty funny. Well, as we elevator, as we come in for the landing, maybe just a little personal stuff. So Sarah, I know you, you love to row and you compete. Tell us a little bit about how you got into rowing and how that fits into your work life balance, because I know you're an avid outdoor enthusiast and eraser.
Sara Whicher 1:00:33
Yeah. So the reason I got into rowing when I went to college, undergrad at Lewis and Clark College, and my roommate and I were coming out of the dining hall, whatever that was called, and all these cars drove up to dump these people off at the dining hall. And all these men got out of the all these boys men got out of the car, all these really tall guys. And I was like, Oh, what's that? And she said, Lisa said, that's the crew team. And I said, we are signing up for that. And we were, we were down in the boat the next day. That is a good story. Then I got in the boat, and it just was life changing for me. I thought, well, this is where I belong in this boat. And so learned how to Skull right away, and did lots of sweeping. And, yeah, zoom forward 500 years, and I still am very competitive.
Marcy Townsend 1:01:27
I'm 5000 years old.
Sara Whicher 1:01:29
Actually, I'm going to be going to Boston. And I knew you were just in Boston because you sent me a photo. But I'm going to be racing at the head of the Charles that's amazing. And a couple
Mark D. Williams 1:01:36
weeks, yes. So it's funny, whatever, whenever I bike or run, and I see a skull. I send you a picture. So I was in Boston running. I took one in the background, right? The skull was right over me. So what do you mean? It's the biggest forgotten the world. It's
Sara Whicher 1:01:48
the biggest regatta in the world, the most competitors in the world. So people come from all over the world to race,
Mark D. Williams 1:01:53
normally, that famous, that particular one, yeah, okay. And because
Sara Whicher 1:01:57
it's an Olympic year, there will be a lot of Olympic crews, because they like to come in and dominate and just show. You know, it's kind of a show too. But Paralympics, Olympics, what
Mark D. Williams 1:02:07
distances are they racing? Racing?
Sara Whicher 1:02:10
So a hen race is a three mile race, and you're typically kind of going up a river three miles in the spring,
Mark D. Williams 1:02:17
the bends and the churns, absolutely. I assume they have their lanes. I mean, how much of it has to do with navigation in terms of, like, getting the inside angle,
Sara Whicher 1:02:25
left? A ton of it. Yeah, there's one buoy line in Boston. There's one buoy line that goes up and you want to, you know, stay on that buoy line.
Mark D. Williams 1:02:32
How many would be in that heat? Well,
Sara Whicher 1:02:34
it's just one race. So in my category, which is the old lady category, the 5000 the 5000 plus, there are, I think I haven't looked at the latest because they but I think it's like 80. That's a lot women my age, wow, and
Mark D. Williams 1:02:50
older, and a little bit younger, they'll all be single crews.
Sara Whicher 1:02:53
Yeah, I'm competing in the women's single okay? And
Mark D. Williams 1:02:56
so they have multiple disciplines, right? They'd have, what? A single, there's a single,
Sara Whicher 1:02:59
there's a double, yeah, a pair, a quad, an eight, so all sorts of options. Then in the spring and the summer, we do, it's not head racing, but it's sprinting. So you're racing 2000
Mark D. Williams 1:03:14
meters or 1000 meters, and that's what we see in the Olympics,
Sara Whicher 1:03:17
yeah, that's what you see in the Olympics, 2000 meter race, yeah, yep, interesting. That's just an all sprint, I would imagine. Yeah, it's hard, very, very hard. I mean, they all are. It's a hard sport. Yeah, it's highly technical, and it's beautiful. It looks beautiful, but it's really hard.
Mark D. Williams 1:03:32
Well, and I remember years ago reading a magazine about vo two max that essentially rowers and cross country skiers have the highest vo two Max. Yep, all the endurance sports. How have you how have you found that does that help you show up at work? Or talk a little bit about how that you know, are you rowing every morning? Or what time of day are you rowing? Yeah.
Sara Whicher 1:03:50
So this morning, I was out, launched off the dock at 545 I was with three other women, and there were other crews the University of Minnesota's out lots of crews, but we were just racing up and down the river getting ready. Well, there's an actual regatta this weekend here. Had called head of the Mississippi, so I'll be rowing in that to get ready to go to Boston. But yeah, it makes me it makes my day. If I could be a professional athlete, I would. I just love it. I love everything about it. I love the teamwork of it, even though I am in the single right now. But every day it teaches me something new, you know, I just am constantly working at something, you know. This morning, the coach drove by and said, Hey, Sarah, you know, up at the catch, you need to blah, blah, blah, you know. And it's just, I have to think about that all the time. Balance is a huge thing. And then when I jump into a team boat, Marcy and I started talking about this early on, when we were getting ready to launch chisel but the idea of, you know, the analogy of being in a crew boat. So let's say you are in a big eight so you have a coxswain, you know, who is driving the boat, and then all the other people every. Everyone in that boat is going the same direction, right, which seems so simple, but everyone in that boat has a different role. So there's the person leading the boat, there's kind of the power people in the middle, and then the people with the good technical work and the coxswain. But everyone has a different role. But you have to come together. And the trust that I have learned and gained from knowing the people that I rode with over the years, all the women and the men that I've rode with, is just such a wonderful bond. I mean, I just, I just think it, it really makes me show up as a better person.
Mark D. Williams 1:05:38
Yeah, we could talk a whole podcast. And this would be, yes, maybe we should Sonic camp. You need to come to Sonic camp, and we can talk in the cold water, in the cold oil. I'll be in the cold water, as well as the sauna itself. How about you? Marcy, how do you recharge? Oh,
Marcy Townsend 1:05:53
god, it's the ever it's the everlasting question. You know, when you start a business, because you're being pulled in multiple directions, and you need to have the backbone to say no. Sometimes that, in and of itself, has been a skill that I have tried to learn, and I continue to try to hone here six, seven years into this. But what I do is I go home, and animals have always been a huge part of my life. Huge. I was the girl growing up. My mom and my parents both were saints. I had the guinea pigs, the hamsters, the dogs, they would never let me get a cat. Oddly enough, I don't know interesting. I know that, yeah, yeah, I could. I did get my first cat until I was in grad school, right? Yeah. And, yeah, yeah. And so I go home and I train my dogs. I go, I work with my dogs. I have, I have working breed dogs at home, and so what that means is we're pack hiking. There's they have a drafting card. The running joke when my husband and I so my husband and I met playing softball on the fields on Lake Nokomis. Those are on the north side of Lake. We live on the south side of Lake now. So, but while we were still playing softball, one of our swissies, we would put the drafting cart behind her, and she would take the beer. You know, we carried our own gear and our softball gear. She carried the beer, that's fine, to the other side of the lake for softball games every Wednesday. Now, we have a Samoyed at home, and she's getting she's nine months old, so you can't do much other than just kind of work her brain and do fun puppy things, but I'm going to be showing her, Oh, that's cool. Show my dogs, yeah, I have a dream one day of, you know, taking them to Westminster. It's commitment, you know, time, commitment, logistics and all that kind of business, but just shown here in the Midwest for the most part. And lucky, luckily enough, and very successful. And what I get out of that myself is the bond, because learning dog language and learning to just be that intuitive and take care of another being happen to be a four legged as versus a two legged. And I don't know, animals have just always been a huge part, and that's so that's how I recharge,
Mark D. Williams 1:08:29
and you have a daughter
Marcy Townsend 1:08:30
as well, right? Yes, 2727
Mark D. Williams 1:08:32
I'm gonna ask a crazy question here, with all this training, was there any analogy between training dogs and like raising kids. Oh yeah.
Marcy Townsend 1:08:42
Humans, we all, regardless of, regardless of how many legs we have, respond to conditioning. Yeah. And yeah, this joke in the office, so I'm a big bang theory kind of. And Sarah too. There's an episode where Sheldon every time Penny does
Mark D. Williams 1:09:02
something, I thought your first circuit there. I thought you're going to The Big Bang Theory. Like, yeah, here we go. Yeah. This is we can nerd
Sara Whicher 1:09:08
out, but we're not going
Marcy Townsend 1:09:10
to nerd out like that. Yeah. Anyways, there's literally an episode where whenever Penny does something, right, Sheldon gives her a chocolate, care for chocolate, and it works on her. And so, yes, Darwin taught his dog to salivate with the bell and everything. But it can happen with
Speaker 1 1:09:31
humans too, and training.
Marcy Townsend 1:09:34
And yeah. So there is this kind of fundamental understanding in all of us, and I just find it
Mark D. Williams 1:09:43
really fascinating. No, that is interesting. I mean, it goes back to athletics too. I mean, you train yourself, right? I mean, your body knows when you're probably going to go into pain. You know, you're going to the pain cave for a race. You know, I used to coach cross country running, and so that we had this one kid that before every race, you'd go over to the barrel and just puke his guts out. And I. Felt bad, but like it was his body's way of getting ready. I'm getting ready, and it's like he had no control. It just happened. Not everyone has a more extreme version than some others, but even the salvating Hungry thing, right? I wonder how often we eat, because we know, oh, it's 537 for dinner versus actually being hungry, right? Being really hungry. And there's good habits, bad habits. Anyway, yeah, that's a whole nother podcast. So it turns out we're gonna have a series another. Yeah, so are you, are you competing? I just finished my 50 miler a couple weeks ago. Are you doing the marathon? No, okay, no, no, I did two of them in a row. Okay, good, you're good? Yeah, no. I decided I don't want to be I don't like roads, so I only, pretty much, at this point, only running a trail. Yeah, it's a lot easier on your body. It's more enjoyable. I like being outside. Maybe have one more. I've never done Boston. So there's the ego side to me that wants to qualify for Boston, but I'm like, you know, as big as a horse, so it's like, Okay, I'm gonna have to wait. I think my only way to get to Boston is wait till everyone else's bodies fall apart. And like, when you come back, I'll come back. I'll come back at like, 55 or 60, and I qualify for Boston. Whenever else, it just quit. Yeah, so,
Sara Whicher 1:11:00
well, you should try rowing, because that's, I mean, all you have to do is get in and out of the boat, right?
Mark D. Williams 1:11:05
Another, I need another sport, like I want at six two. I mean, actually rowing and cross country, seeing it be the two sports I would do very well at with my body type. But it's just like, I already play so many sports I can't possibly juggle them all. Rowing. We actually had a skull growing up on on a lake. So my dad and my dad built one. So we had a little two person one that we never used, and I think that had a single that we must have used a little bit. My dad is a renaissance man. He's tried about everything, and so we had it for like, two summers, and he got bored. He's like, Yeah, sold it to whoever. But then one winter, he just built one. Oh, wow. I think he might even still have it. So a wood one. Oh, cool. So anyway, maybe we'll go take a look at it. I mean, I do enjoy it. I mean, when I go to the gym, sometimes if I warm up, I'll just hop on the road machine and go and it's I do enjoy it so and I love the water. But again, too many hobbies, yeah, too many, too many equipment. I appreciate you guys coming on the podcast. We'll have everything in the show notes, and appreciate your time and for the audience listening. And if anyone wants to reach out to you, they can go to chisel architecture.com, and and we have all your Instagram stuff will be in the notes as well. So thank you.
Sara Whicher 1:12:06
Thanks for coming on. Very much. Yeah,
Mark D. Williams 1:12:10
we've had the podcast now for two and a half, almost three years now, and we have a consulting page, one to one consulting you can book my time for one hour. Perhaps you've heard a guest where you like one of the topics. Maybe you want an introduction to some of the guests that I've had on. Perhaps you want to talk about branding or marketing or anything that we've covered on the podcast over the last two and a half years. You can book a time at curious builder podcast.com thanks for tuning in to curious builder podcast. If you like this episode, do us a favor. Share it with three other business owners. The best way that we can spread what we're doing is by word of mouth, and with your help, we can continue to help other curious builders expand their business. Please share it with your friends, like and review online, and thanks again for tuning in.
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