Episode 136 - Architects vs. Builders: How Ali Awad Thrived Where Most Clash
#136 | Ali Awad | Awad Architects | Architects vs. Builders: How Ali Awad Thrived Where Most Clash
On this episode of The Curious Builder Podcast, Mark hangs out with Ali Awad from Awad Architects and they dive into Ali’s journey—everything from running a design-build partnership for 25 years to the behind-the-scenes of working on tons of homes in Southwest Minneapolis. They swap stories about what makes partnerships work, why good client relationships matter, and even talk about bringing personality into architectural design. If you’re into building, designing, or just love a good “how’d they do that?” chat, this episode’s packed with cool insights and real talk.
Listen to the full episode:
About Ali Awad
Ali Awad, AIA, is a licensed architect with over 30 years of experience designing custom homes, vacation properties, and major renovations. He began his career in 1991 and went on to co-found Awad + Koontz, an award-winning design/build firm that served Minnesota homeowners for 25 years. From 1997 to 2022, Ali and his team completed hundreds of projects, developing a reputation for craftsmanship, collaboration, and homes that stand the test of time.
Today, as Principal of Awad Architects, Ali continues to practice with a strong belief in the design/build approach—where architects and builders work together from the very beginning to ensure projects are both efficient and inspired. He is an active leader in the American Institute of Architects (serving on the CRAN Advisory Group and AIA-MN’s Residential Architecture Committee) and currently chairs the Burnsville Planning Commission.
Ali is known for combining professional expertise with a fun, approachable style, building lasting relationships with clients, contractors, and collaborators alike.
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Ali Awad 00:04
you have driven by or run by or walked by dozens and dozens of our projects, we just we did a ton of work in southwest Minneapolis, and a lot of those projects, you build an addition. You want it to look like it was always there, so it's nothing that jumps out at you. But I love being in that neighborhood, just because I have so many great memories and so many great projects, and really, so many great clients.
Mark D. Williams 00:32
Today on the cares better podcast, we had Ali Awad on from Awad architects, and it was a great, very just thoughtful, really a meaningful discussion from Ollie's been in the business for multiple decades, and just kind of getting the sense of where he's traveled in his career and where he wants to go with it. I think you're going to love this episode. Without further ado, here's Ali. All right.
Mark D. Williams 00:52
Welcome to cares builder Podcast. I'm Mark Williams, your host today, I've got Ali Awad from Awad architecture in
Ali Awad 00:58
studio. What's up? Ollie? Hi Mark. Hey, thanks for having me. Hey, no pressure.
Mark D. Williams 01:02
I asked you, if you want, what do you want to go with this? You're like, you're a good interviewer job, just depending on you. So I'm going to go with the old I was, like, making this sound when it comes on the podcast. Let's see here. This episode is brought to you by Lacroix. I
Mark D. Williams 01:15
was one of them as a sponsor, so maybe that'll get them. We got to meet over the last year, we launched the curious architect collective. Here in Minnesota, we have the curious builder collective, and you're kind enough to join our architect collective. So it's been kind of fun to see you in person, kind of see how your mind works, and get to know you a little bit. Let's go through your history, a little bit of where you started and kind of where you're at today. I think the thing that was the most interesting to me is there's so few architects, as I mentioned, I only know one, actually, someone I interviewed out in LA that was an architect, and also a GC. And so for what, 26 years, you had a wad, Kunz, is that right? Yeah, Awad and Koontz. We had a lot in Koontz for 25 years, 25 yep, yep, yeah. And I wish I could say it was my idea, but it was my, my old business partner, Jim Koontz, that I had been we had been collaborating and friends and neighbors, and he had a he he left his corporate job to go into construction, and then worked for builder for a while, and then went off on his own, and was doing small projects that slowly got bigger. And then I started helping him with design, kind of on the side. The firm I was at did not do any residential work, so it didn't really, wasn't really a conflict of interest, and
Ali Awad 02:31
happy with where I was in my career, and so he asked it was his idea to really say, Come and let's set up our own company and do design, build. And I'm so grateful because it's been it was tremendously rewarding, and I'm I miss a lot of it, some of it I don't miss, but it was a great learning experience, especially those first few years where we like the first year, I didn't know enough about what I was doing to know that I shouldn't be doing it. But we got through that, and then really learned about
Ali Awad 03:02
business because they don't teach business in architecture school at all. So we had to learn. We had to learn
Ali Awad 03:09
pretty fast, and we figured it out pretty fast, and learn how to make money and learn how to
Mark D. Williams 03:12
take care of our clients. And so yeah, we had a great run, and I'm sorry, what was his background or what made him want to do it?
Ali Awad 03:20
He just, he wasn't, I don't think he was happy in his corporate job after college. And I he did some, like, career analysis and career counseling, and that's what, that was the answer. And soon as he started doing it, he loved it. And
Ali Awad 03:34
so I think that's really how he got to it.
Mark D. Williams 03:37
Yeah, that's interesting. I get, I've interviewed a lot of people over the years that are, let's say, husband and wives, or they are father and son, and just in general, I was told as a young kid, my dad was an entrepreneur, and it was partnerships can be difficult. You have two points of view. I'd love your opinion. And just like any relationship, there's ups and downs, pros and cons. Now, with the benefit of a lot of rear sight, and you've been on your own now for quite a while, what is your thoughts on? What advice would you give either to a younger Ali when you're starting with a partnership? Because I just feel like that insight would be super interesting. Yeah, to hear about partnerships, I've always I've done a little mini partnership, let's say, on a little land deal, on this honey Hill deal, and I really liked it, but my identity is very solid. I've been building for 21 years, so it's a little bit different than when you are back in your mid 20s and being like, Oh, I'm gonna start a partnership. Then just kind of curious your thoughts on what a partnership means to you and how you look back on it, like what worked and what didn't. That's so funny. You say that my dad told me the same advice, don't get into a part. You need to be on your own. You can't get in partnership with anybody. It's
Ali Awad 04:47
and when we were setting up our business, we met with our accountant, our accountant gave us the same advice. Said, Don't do this. You're going to wreck your friendship. And I think the reason it worked for.
Ali Awad 05:00
Us is that we were one. I mean, one of the reasons that we're both in kind of in the exact same place in our lives, our kids were exactly the same, same when we started, we had one child. Our kids were the same age. Our spouses both worked for either Dayton's or target. I can't remember. It was probably Dayton's at the time, and they both transitioned over to target after Dayton's disappeared, we lived on the same street. We were in the same neighborhood. We just, and we the same street in the same neighborhood, yeah, yeah, we live. Oh, wow, yeah, we and so we just had so much in common, and so much of our lives were really aligned. And then we had the second child, about both our second kids are about the same age. Yeah, it was. I mean, that's that was part of what made it successful. The other part too, is partnership. Is like a marriage, you have to go into it thinking of the putting the other person first. And that really worked. Well, I think that's part of the reason we were successful, is that we, I was more concerned about his happiness and success, and he was more concerned about my happiness and success, and so that's what enabled us to flourish. And I mean, we had a great run, and at the end, the reason we're not doing it anymore is that we were starting to kind of head different directions, or have different starting to have different goals. And that's the reason why you think about it, 25 years, that chapter of your life is longer than I've been building, which is impressive. I mean, it's quarter of a century. Yeah, it's not like it's a short period of time. We had a great run, and I'm so grateful for it. I wish I could get it back, but I know it's not going to happen. Yeah. So, so you asked about advice, the advice that I've given to some other younger architects who were exploring design build because I've had a few design build experiences now, and my advice to them is that you have to be an owner if you want to be an architect and have a good really have control over what your experience is. You have to really have a partner, a stake in the business, so that you're able to make
Mark D. Williams 06:56
you're able to have a say in the business decisions, and instead of just working for working No offense. Mark, yeah, working for the builder. Yeah, no, no offense taken. It's funny you say that it's only the words that you just said that just click. For me, whenever you see it advertised, it's always like Bob's design build, Mark's design build. It's always design build. But at least anecdotally, the people that I've interviewed, it's almost always a builder that hires architecture in house, but they don't say build design. And I get why the normal sequence, of course, you have to design before you build. If not, you really need this podcast bad, because you're doing things backwards, which I'm sure a lot of people have done. But what you just said is such sage advice, because if you have a builder, and no knock on builders that want design. If anything, you're they're getting harmed for having good taste. It's just that, I think what you're trying to say, and I'd love you for verify this, is that by being designed build, both are owners, then it's not one person sort of saying the buck stops with me, and it's, let's say the builder. It's both people have an equal say. Is that what you're trying to get across, yeah, actually, that is, yeah. That's what made it successful for us, is that we were equal partners, and we had equal say, and we could kind of push and pull to get
Ali Awad 08:09
and really, we really tried to stay focused on what's going to be the best experience for the homeowner and what's gonna be the best end result. And so we gotta redo the tile, and it's gonna cost us $3,000
Mark D. Williams 08:19
you know what? We got to redo the tile, because that's what's going to be right, that it's that sort of a decision that we're able to, I think, make the one thing that's sort of exciting to me about a partnership, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that I think when the good is good, it's probably really good, like a team. And I think I relate. I did mostly solo sports, I played tennis, I ran and I swam. Those are individual things part of a team, but like, the high of a team, if you're, like, say, a basketball team, you win together, you lose together. But the high, I imagine, on team is higher than alone, because you're sharing it with more people, probably no different than, like a family, like your family memories with multiple people are elevated versus if it's just your it's more of an observation. I don't it's not a judgment about one way or being better or not. It's more, am I wrong in that, like, when you and your partner had business successes, like the elation or like, the joy was higher because you were sharing it with someone. Is that applicable or not? Totally? Yeah, you're spot on. And, I mean, we're we could really, I mean, I mean, it's synergy. We could, the two of us together, could do more than two people could do alone. I mean it, yeah, and when we had business success, I remember the first few years that we made money, I just
Ali Awad 09:27
probably the first 10 years we were in. Well, honestly, I
Ali Awad 09:32
didn't want my other architect friends to know how great I had it, because
Mark D. Williams 09:36
you had just left commercial architecture, I'm assuming, to residential. And you're like, Wow, this is autonomy. I'm making money and I'm creating something.
Ali Awad 09:43
Yeah, I have freedom. I have flexibility. I'm not working, I'm not staying up all night to meet deadlines. I'm I, yeah, that flexibility, freedom and the income like this is I don't want anyone else to know about this, right? Awesome. So I didn't realize how lucky I had it, yeah?
Mark D. Williams 09:58
Well, that's amazing time.
Mark D. Williams 10:00
Especially, what were the things? Why don't more architects and builders have design build firms, either together, like a partnership or I have some thoughts on this, but I'm curious to hear yours before I buy some
Ali Awad 10:14
the architects and builders think differently. It is two very different ways of looking at a problem, and they're both problem solvers, and so you have to,
Ali Awad 10:26
I think you have to be open to and understand where the other side is coming from to really make it work. And you have to really believe that the other side's view makes the project better. And I think there's a lot of that missing on both sides. There's a lot of there's just a lot of that missing on both sides.
Mark D. Williams 10:45
I was just thinking, tell me if this hits. I was just thinking about the stereotypes that I hear in the field from, let's say, framer. I mean, I'm more familiar with the builder stereotypes about architects, but I'd love to hear some of the architect biases. And so here's my premise. Is that a builder is like, I want to get this done. I need an answer. This can't be done. Hey, it's art ideal in the real world. Let's go and from the architect, I got to believe it's like they all they want to do is rush. They're not thoughtful. They're not taking time to think about the end result of their decision. And like those two lead to such a clash of and here's the funny thing, both parties are right and but also both parties are wrong. So it's so funny how the bias can flip both sides. Because what I appreciate as someone who's very short I'm not short tempered, not short fused, short attention span.
Mark D. Williams 11:30
I mean, case in point, if you need to remember what, I literally couldn't figure it out because I was so short attention span. But like I have, actually, I know, at least I'm self aware enough to know that about myself. I've partnered, like I have a one of my architectural designers right now on a project we're working on. I picked them deliberately. It's frustrating. Sometimes you can be very slow, and I know I'm really fast, but I know that the project at the end will benefit from their thoughtfulness, right and there. And I totally committed to the person and the judgment and who they are and what their craft is. And so it's like but I'm also know that, like me, just rushing, rushing, rushing is not going to get the greatest results. And yet, if we never did anything, then nothing results either. And so I think you do need the Yin Yang. That's anyway, that's my how much of that is seems accurate to you based on your experience,
Ali Awad 12:16
you're absolutely right. And that's, I mean, that's a testament to you to really realize that. So for years, I was involved at the Builders Association and at the AIA and at Nari, and I go to the builder meetings, and all the builders would tell me, architect whores architected us. They'd feel the need to kind of tell me all their bad architect experiences. I go to the AIA meetings and meet with other architects, totally the opposite. You design, build. Well, I had a builder. You were a therapy puppy. Both
Ali Awad 12:47
parties just wanted therapy with you. Ali, it got kind of old after a while, but I also realized, okay, there's this huge void between the two, and that whole void is where I get to live and work and practice, and I'm, I was totally happy with that, yeah, because we just, we could focus. We just focused on the project and the client and the end result and there. And I think that that helped us to be successful. I think what I've enjoyed over the last couple years having got a chance to sort of level up where I'm at my career and work with some well respected architects, is, honestly, I found that most of those stereotypes about architects are wrong for me personally, and maybe it's because the firms that I'm hiring. So I guess I'm not if I saw a red flag, I probably won't go for it, but
Mark D. Williams 13:32
like I've on the build side, there's this stereotype that an architect wants to draw, and they're they get so focused on their craft that they forget about reality. That has not been my experience. I've had a number experience. I've had a number of architects. We both have to agree that, hey, the client this is we're cooking in the kitchen. Before we bring out the plate to the client, we want to make sure we're on the same page and having respectful debates on this, that and other thing. And I love that, because it's to me, it's community, it's collaboration, it's communication, and at the end of the day, the project is better for it. And I've actually just loved working with the architects that I've gotten the privilege to work with, and it's just like none of those stereotypes have really borne fruit. In my opinion. Maybe I'm just lucky and the people that we've picked to work with, so far, it's been really great and way more collaborative and way more. Hey, Ian XYZ framer, I'd love their opinion on this, because this is a tricky detail. Let us know if there's a problem, not like this is how it is. Go do it like most people don't react very well that way. And so I just love, I just love that those stereotypes, in my opinion, have sort of been shattered. It's not, it's not an
Ali Awad 14:38
issue. Yeah, I think you are such a great You're such you're so great at relationships and and that's really the key to having to making it successful between builder and architect, or between builder and subcontractor, for that matter. It's the same sort of thing, and it's understanding that you have a relationship with this person, and you can't really treat anybody like a commodity.
Ali Awad 15:00
It's when the architects treat builders as a commodity, like I need to get three bids, or the builders treat the architects as a commodity. I can I need cheaper plans. That's really when it doesn't work, or it is. It just is so much more difficult and so much more, yeah, so much more of a slog. If it's not. There's no relationship involved. You hit it on the head. I mean, a commodity no one likes to be that. It's funny, my kids the other day, well, you met them on the way up here. So my kids are home from school today or at work, and so they're doing Legos down there. And but anyway, they asked, not today, but they've asked in the past, when we went to a house to walk through the like, Dad, are you? They're young, right? They're trying to figure this out. And they're like, is Are you their boss? And I said, No, I'm, I'm nobody's boss. I said, they're my business partners. That are my partners, are the people I work with. I just don't like the boss, but you don't love this. They go, what that is, Mom, your boss?
Mark D. Williams 15:50
I said, yeah, yeah, that's actually probably pretty accurate. They're pretty quick studies, after all, I guess. But to your point about, I just think about, I think so much of it is life lessons I've learned for watching my parents build and design, right, and how they treated people, yeah. And right now we're doing this thing. I'm actually really excited. I wish I would have thought of this idea years earlier. Right now, I'm taking videos of everyone that's working on a house and having them sign like the framers have to sign the two by fours. My HVAC guys have to sign the ductwork, and the plumbers have to sign the plumbing. And the idea is that someday, if this was ever open, they'd see their name and they'd see their timestamp and the date on it. And the idea like, this is a it takes a village to raise quote this house, and I might be the face of the company, but I can't build up without these out all these people. And I also, I wish I would have thought of it earlier in the project, because I would rather tell you the beginning you have to sign it, because you if you know you're gonna put your name on it, there's just gonna be a little bit more care, just a little bit more thoughtfulness. And not that we don't already, but you're putting your name on this. Well, we don't often read contracts. At least the bank sent me some today. I'm like, scroll 800 times. Like, who knows what I'm signing away. But it's like, the point of it, like, it does add a bit of gravitas. When you have to sign something, you're like, wait a minute. Do I want my name on
Ali Awad 16:59
this anyway? That's great. Yeah. Get the, get your trades people to take ownership of what they're doing.
Mark D. Williams 17:04
Yeah, it's kind of a goal. What have you speaking of trades? What have you seen over the last 30 years? I mean, you've worked with you've got a three decade plus career. There's this narrative that as so many people are departing the industry, what is your feeling? What is your vibe? I mean, you're still feeling the pulse of the industry. What are you sort of seeing in terms of, and what have you seen over the last several decade, decades, in terms of, I guess, just perspective on the industry? Wow, that's a big question.
Ali Awad 17:35
Sorry, that's a huge question. Yeah, what I remember is that all the trades people used to be so much older than me, and I could look to them for go out on the job site and try to gain wisdom from them about what, what can we do better? I was always looking for feedback on my plans. And how can we how can I provide the you know? How can I make this easier for you, so that you understand that what you're doing and and now all the trades people are younger than me, so, so I mean one, I think one positive is that the people that are in the trades now are intentionally. There is a push towards, towards promoting the trades and and a lot of the people that are going a lot of the kids are going into it now, seem to be pretty intentional about it. And it actually can be a great, honestly, a great living for somebody who doesn't want to sit behind a desk all day. So I don't know if that answers your question.
Mark D. Williams 18:27
Just I think everyone's perspective is unique, and so I think, yeah, just kind of given some space to I know what my experience is, and I'm kind of just curious yours was such a different I mean, a It was started before I really got it. You're about seven, eight years before I started, when you started in 97 and so I was just thinking about just the perspective, also, of like, think about technology in terms of designing and drafting, how much of the way you design a home now has changed?
Ali Awad 18:53
Oh, quite a bit. Yeah, it's almost all. It's almost all on the computer. I mean, I still kind of sketch and scribble and diagram, but I'm not doing any hand drafting anymore, and that probably changed about 10 years ago. But before that, I would, I kind of hung onto my pencil and was drawing by hand. And part of my argument, or part of the reason I hung onto it for so long, is that I'm drawing houses so they're not that huge. It's not that if I made a mistake or had to redraw something, it wasn't like a giant piece of paper that I had to fill again. And the other part of it is much of what we did was old house renovation. And all those old houses were designed and drafted by hand, and so to design a renovation, or we built a lot of additions. It felt right to kind of continue that hand drawing sort of style, at least felt right to me. But now it's all 3d and on the computer, and which I enjoy too.
Mark D. Williams 19:51
You know, it's interesting. I think I find that, and I don't know enough about your architecture, because I haven't walked through it, but I'm based. Most of my decisions on people. And people have a chemistry of warmth authenticity about them. And I think I told you this the first time I ever met you or shook your hand like you exude a ton of kind of quiet charisma. But there's also a sense of humor about you, because, like, your eyes are like Twinkle, and it's it's interesting to me because, like, as I've worked with other architects, like their personality shows up in in their work, which you would expect, right? I don't think that's an obvious statement, but it's more of one that I just sort of enjoy. And I told you before, at some point I'd love to work with you, and I'm excited to see like, how your personality comes into a home design, because I think it's true of, honestly, of everyone, builders, tile setters, cabinet people, how they how they always say, like, couples, eventually, if you've been married long enough, start looking like each other, and they say the same thing about dogs. I've never thought about this till right this second. I wonder how long before people sort of look like the object that they you look like an architect, like you. If someone was to, like, have a guess, they'd be like, um, he's an architect professor, maybe, whatever. But like, I was thinking about my cabinet guy, like, is he gonna start looking like a cabinet? Like, I don't know how far to go with this, but it just, I love seeing people's passion and enthusiasm for what they do sort of show up in their work. Yeah, I guess is the underlying of what I'm trying to say.
Ali Awad 21:15
So I know you live in southwest Minneapolis. Yep, you have driven by or run by or walk by dozens and dozens of our projects. So we did, we just, we did a ton of work in southwest Minneapolis, so, and a lot of that, I mean, a lot of those projects, you build an addition, you want it to look like it was always there. So it's nothing that jumps out at you, but it's, I love being in that neighborhood, just because I have so many, so many great memories, and so many great projects, and really, so many great clients.
Mark D. Williams 21:45
Where do you find yourself today? So it's been, I mean, you're you at one point you were Director of Design. Now you've got a wad architecture like, what do you? What fulfills you now? And what do you how do you compare where you at in your career now to maybe what you know your past chapter was,
Ali Awad 22:04
well, I really enjoy, I mean, I love being on my own. I love being able to make, kind of make what I think are the right decisions for my clients. And so, yeah, I'm very, very happy to be very happy to be back on my own. And I do miss design build, but I also consciously decided i I'm not going to do it by myself after, after a while and Coontz broke up, it's too big of a it's too big of a thing to do well, just all by myself. And I just know myself enough that I need someone else to kind of work through these challenging a lot of the construction challenges it take, I need, I need someone to bounce ideas off of and for stuff like that. When
Mark D. Williams 22:56
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Ali Awad 24:40
Yeah. I mean, from a sales standpoint, it was, it now is I'm selling that. I'm an architect. I'm selling architectural design. I miss the days when I was selling design build, because then you're selling the solution, you're selling the end and the homeowner client, they're they don't want to design, they want to live in a better house. And we were selling the. Better house as an architect, we're still selling the same thing, but we're only part of the process, so I do miss that. I don't know if Hindsight is everything looks rosy, was you look okay? So it wasn't, wasn't, I'm sure it wasn't all sunshine and roses. I forget the rest of your question.
Mark D. Williams 25:15
Well, just like when you interact with builders now, yeah, and let's say you're interviewing against another architect. I've got to believe that. I mean, your background of having built for 25 years is a huge competitive advantage for you, specifically to get work or not.
Ali Awad 25:31
I think so. I What's funny about our market is I haven't really interviewed against a lot of competition. It's mostly especially at this stage. It's mostly referrals directly to me, whether they're from other builders or from past clients or right big clients. So but yeah, having my construction experience and design build experience, I think, is a big advantage for sure.
Mark D. Williams 25:51
Yeah, yeah. I think from a interview standpoint, I can see what you mean earlier about if a client wants a house, and some of them, I mean, you do definitely have clients that are very interested in design or architecture or interior design. And so I'd say, of the clients I've had, let's say I've had roughly 100 I can think of two, and right now in my memory, stand out as like, being completely obsessed with architecture. And then I would say, just picking 30 to 40% or really into interior design, usually, stereotypically, it was my lady clients who were really bonding with the the interior design group that they were working with. Sure, and then the vast majority of them, where we want a house, this is our budget, yeah, and we want to enter, I think your earlier point that people want the end goal, and it's up to us to, obviously, make sure they enjoy the ride and give them a different offer. A different offerings. And I think part of it too is I'm in a personally, I'm in a totally different place professionally than I was 15 years ago, even 10 years ago, in terms of sophistication of what we're doing. So I think as you build higher end homes, both architecturally and dollar wise, I feel like the stakes and the interest also go up. I think now my clients are way more interested in architecture, but I can't tell if it's the price point or if it's just the homes that are building that are more architecturally significant, sort of like grab cause those clients who are already interested in that to sort of come towards you. Does that make sense?
Ali Awad 27:16
Yeah. I mean, the bigger the budget, the more opportunities you have to do something spectacular, spectacular, something that really is eye catching, or the more opportunities you have for those special moments in a house, for sure.
Mark D. Williams 27:29
Yeah, when you're interviewing clients, what is awake? There's always Yeah. I had one Melissa olent, who's in the design collective. She does this thing, little moments of delight. I love her turn of phrase. Oh, yeah, that's great. I think it's a good one. I just thought of it because I was thinking about, when you're interviewing clients, everyone clients, everyone loves to sort of surprise or be like, I love it when an architect will pull out of their back pocket after they've reviewed. Like, by the way, there's one more design I've just been and you're like, wait a minute. You've been sitting on that ace of spades for a while. I know you've
Ali Awad 27:53
had that up your sleeve. We call that plan C. Always plan C.
Mark D. Williams 27:57
What, going back to the where I was going with this question, is, what is a way that you draw out those moments of delight, are these things that some the client said, something that's in the back of your mind, and now it's kind of been the focal point of your design. It seems like that's kind of a lot of times where a lot of your design would start,
Ali Awad 28:16
yeah, yeah. I mean, it's it really comes out of the conversation with the client, and it takes a client who's willing to be open to share these things so that we can draw them out and try to realize whatever it is in whatever the aspect of a house or detail, or the way they want to look out the kitchen window, or let's there's so many different ways that that can come out from people. Some for a lot of clients, it's an inspirational image. They have a picture like this. I love this. Okay, well, let's that's a picture's worth a million words to me then, because we can recreate or create something that evokes their image. So yeah, but it does. It's tough if a client isn't is guarded. That makes it really tough to really customize the experience for them.
Mark D. Williams 29:03
Have you found any success in drawing them out or what have you how have you sort of navigated that?
Ali Awad 29:08
Yeah, well, it really varies by client. Do you really have to kind of understand them? So I'm thinking of a I think of a client. This is years ago, probably 20 years ago. Client, Southwest Minneapolis. Nice house, really nice Street. The project was a kitchen expansion in addition for their kitchen. And they, they, they, they had a unique way of communicating with each other. I think they both wanted the same thing, but had a hard time talking about it. And so what I remember from the design meetings with this client was there, there was just long moments of silence, I learned to just keep my mouth shut. We put something out there, and it might take three or four minutes of silence before we get a response. I mean, it was like Oof. It was. And at first I put it out there, five or 10 seconds, then I'd start blabbing. And after. For a while, I realized I'm just going to put it out there and wait, and at the end, I mean, the project was very successful, they were very happy. I mean, it was, everything went great, but I was so, I don't know, I guess I was just glad that I realized this about them and let the process flow. That's one thing about design, is that it has to move, and this is where you can kind of get in trouble. And design build, especially if it's a build Driven Design Build company, is that the design process really flows at the clients rate. They're the ones who set the pace. And we can try to hurry along, we can try to we can be responsive, but at the end of the day, it's the client that sets the pace for how the design is going to go.
Mark D. Williams 30:46
That's so interesting to say that I we had probably too soon, I was just thinking about, well, first of all, if I had to be quiet for five to 10 minutes, I'd either be sleeping or fired. I don't know if there's a middle ground for me, but it's funny. That's good advice. I've mentioned it before, but Jason to Russia. Oh yeah, yeah. I took him out for coffee a couple years ago, maybe a year into having the podcast, and I just asked him, like, Hey, I'm not trained as an interviewer, other than I just have a lot of conversations in my life. I said any tips or tricks or thoughts that? And his advice was, along yours. He says, Don't be afraid to sit a little bit longer in uncomfortable silence. It's really hard for me personally to do that, but it was really good advice. And while I'm not great, I am definitely better than what I was a couple years ago. Anyway, where I'm going with this is the client setting the pace. We recently were let go from a project where we let the client set the pace actually, oh, and they were unhappy with the pace that they set. Okay? And so it's kind of a bit of a double standard, and that was super interesting, because I think it's a complicated process. You have design, you have build, you have a lot of money, you have a lot of things going on, yeah. And so one of the things, of course, like anyone would like to try to do, is bring some order out of this chaos. And so like for us, I found a lot of value in bi weekly meetings. We meet every two weeks, and I started that. Maybe I don't even know when we started that three, four years ago. It doesn't matter. It's how we do it. Yeah. And I think most people will tell you, as soon as you change your process for somebody else, things start getting missed or sitting changed. And so where I'm going with this pace thing is, this client said, Hey, we're going to a very busy time. We have a lot going on, moving out of our house and some other things. And they said, could you give us some space? I said, Sure. I mean, we were excited to start. We kind of was perfect timing, like, let's go. They said, Give us two three weeks. I gave two three weeks. Checked in with them, and that next call, they let us go. And I said, I'm really surprised. I said, What is the reason? And they said, well, lack of communication. And I said, Wow. I said, I'm bad at a lot of things, but I'd like to think that communications were actually one of the things I'm best at. And I said, I do you recall that you said you wanted space and like, it didn't even register, like they didn't actually even answer the question, but they said, We're just not a good fit. And that may have been, it's not really. It's more of just, I let the client set the pace. Yeah, and that was a detriment for me. I'm not saying you're wrong, but for me, that's when you said. That's the first thing that came to mind. Was one, whenever I've let the client set the pace, it's somehow come back to bite me a little bit, because they were looking for a guided experience. Now that being said, I can't go up breakneck speed because they can't handle it right. And so finding that rhythm and tempo for the client. Sure they do have an impact on it, of course, right? But I did learn. Hopefully I don't learn that again, because I feel like I've learned this lesson a few times now. Of I sort of gave them the all the reins to it, and then they didn't like where they should reins. The wrong analogy. I gave them keys to the car. They drove the car in a way that they didn't like, and then that's my car. Here's your keys back. We're not interested in driving anymore. Yeah.
Ali Awad 33:42
Anyway, I think, from my experience, it was more, it was probably more letting them set the pace of the conversation, rather than the pace the timing. I see the construction that makes sense this. So, yeah, you can't Well, but even still, some people can't make a decision. And then you do have to, you know, fish or cut bait at some point or so,
Mark D. Williams 34:04
it's, I mean, it's hard. I mean, do you think, I guess I'm just thinking out loud, as we often do, is how, how we have a good experience with our client? Obviously, is checking in regular Yeah. But a lot of it too is setting milestones so that they meet them, but not making them so aggressive that they feel rushed. Yeah, it's a tricky nuance. It sure is, because if you go too rapid, they feel sort of stressed, and if you stress them out too early in the process, they're sort of fatigued before you ever start the build, right? But if you and I don't get decisions, that's a tricky thing. How is it just a people reading thing? How have you navigated that over your career in terms of, hey, because some people are great at making decisions. Some people want they'll say, Well, we hired you. We want you to make decision. Great if you actually believe that right, meaning, like, I'm happy to make those decisions, and the team is too. But you also have to give us the actually, the best projects I've ever had are when projects believe what they also say. Or. Say, I trust you, Ollie, to make the decisions, review them with me, but continue on because they're empowering you kind of proceed. I think the most challenging builds I've ever had is where they sort of the client plays architect, plays builder, plays designer, where they basically insert themselves into the process, either out of control or lack of trust, which could be almost the same thing.
Ali Awad 35:20
Yeah, that's bad. That's, I agree. That's very bad. I've experienced the bad side of it too. So, yeah, you do have to, you do have to have, I mean, the whole goal is to get to a project and to is to the whole goal is to get them in the house that they love. So, so, yeah, we do have to make progress in it at some point. You do have to kind of correct the whip a little bit sometimes, or you but you're right. You can't drive them too hard. It's oftentimes, it's even just as an architect, it's the construction schedule that that drive drives everything. Architects were motivated by deadlines, and so to know that, okay, we need to be in for permit by x date, so that we can get the permit out by x date and schedule a excavation before snow flies or before road restrictions, whatever the issue is.
Mark D. Williams 36:11
So for someone who's never worked in behind in a kitchen, meaning myself, I often think in terms of those analogies. So I'm thinking about the client who's here for a nice dinner, a house, if you will, and you're the cook, I'm the server, but you also have the front of the of the maitre d, and I think there's a lot of value in we're talking and where I'm going with this terrible analogy is like, I'll often call the interior designer, because I feel like, and maybe this is my own bias, I just feel most of my designers are women, and I feel like, in general, Women are more empathetic than I am personally, and so I often will trust them like, hey, how do you think the client is doing right now? Do you think that they need a little pick me up? Or I've if I've worked with designers for enough years, they know that I'm approachable enough that they can call me and say, Hey, Mark, I think this client could really use a check in from you personally, or they just need a little break. And that's true with architects too. I My point is that team is really talking for the best interest of the client's experience. And I love it when the when I have design meetings behind but when it's just the three of us talking for the client, and one of us will say, almost like they're they're advocating for the client, which is what we all want to do, in which we tell the client we do, but like it's actually happening where we'll say, Hey, I don't think the client would like this or but the client has said they'd like to see things ahead of time. Can we work on a way to sort of deliver it to them so they have a chance to digest it? Because some, I have a client right now who doesn't like to react for the first time in front of everyone, yeah, for and they're very thoughtful, and they're beautiful people, but they've just simply asked during the process, which is a little hard sometimes for the architects, because the get the song and dance and the circus magic of it is like, as you're unfolding your designs, you sort of, there's an art show a little bit to like how you go through it, and you're, I don't think they totally understand that they're asking the architect to sort of do the presentation ahead of time. It's like pre recording a magic trick and then doing it again loses some of its beauty, but yet, that's what the client prefers, and so we sort of have to acquiesce to that.
Ali Awad 38:08
Yeah, that's that is a debate I know we've had in the past, is okay, do we give them the drawings in advance so they're so they know they've had a chance to look at it, or do we do the reveal on in person? So it's, I'm not sure what the right answer is, for most people, it's really the reveal in person. And honestly, we're always working up to the last minute on the deadline and tweaking it, and so it's that's what makes it difficult to turn over the drawings a day before the meeting, because they're usually not ready yet.
Mark D. Williams 38:33
Well, I think explaining it like a phone call is better than an email. An email is better than a text in person, where you and I can I like body language. I mean, one of the reasons why you're here in studio, which is nice. I mean, I prefer having conversations. When I first started the podcast, I knew I wanted to interview people in person, which, of course, limits you to Minnesota, because no one's flying in for the cares builder podcast. Hey, if you want to, you're welcome. No one known yet. We have a private landing strip just outside of Excelsior. But where I was going, I mean, the nuance of body language, I think of, I think retrospectively, deals that have gone south, either one of just referenced that was a phone call. We hadn't seen them since we had presented to them contract pricing when everyone knows, like, when a client kind of goes dark, yeah, like, that's not a good sign. And body language is so important, and I really appreciate clients that are willing to because it does take time. And to your point about being authentic and vulnerable, like when we are real with our emotions, we can help each other way too much deeper level. You can design a better home. I can give you. I can deliver you a better process. But I need to know, like, where you're at, yeah,
Ali Awad 39:35
yeah, in person is, is huge, yeah. Although now
Mark D. Williams 39:38
don't you feel like we live in a world now where everything has to be recapped and notes. It's like, it's like, you have a meeting and then you have to recap the meeting with notes. And I unfortunately, it thing there's either a it's so detailed, so you need the accountability for the whole team. But two, I mean, I don't think it, at least no one I've worked with, I feel like deliberately does this, but people have rose. Forgetfulness on what they said versus what they thought they said, Oh. And so sometimes we've had it where, well, this is what was shared and but then you do the thing that was shared, and then they're like, Well, no, do you have any give any proof? That's what I said. You're like, oh, boy, this is going to be more difficult. So it's like, according to according to our team. Now it's after a meeting, we have to sort of send out a recap of what
Ali Awad 40:21
happened. Yes, no, I aspire to be a better note taker. Well, I got the answer
Mark D. Williams 40:26
free on that is, I was going to ask you, for architecture, how you've seen sort of AI, or how you utilize it, or if you are well. But speaking of note taking, I don't do it all the time. I need to do a better job of it. Mainly, I just forget, because it's still so like, obviously, when you're doing virtual meetings, it's automatic, it's super easy, but, you know, just on your phone you can just, I use otter AI, which is a little note taker. Keep it in your breast pocket, away you go. But now they have, I think it's Claude or plot. I saw an architect the other day that had it on their wrist, and you just wear it on your wrist, yeah, and then you can tap it on your phone and it transcribes it for you. But it's super professional, because when you're done, you can send all the meeting notes to all of your people. The one I'm writing that down, yeah, I need to do that too. I did write it down. I just haven't bought it yet. That one's nice because it's on your hand, because sometimes the phone's a little clunky, and obviously you want to be courteous and tell people you're on being recorded. I had a situation, little pie in your face of we had a I had a meeting, oh, I don't know, a while back where I had the AI note taker on, but the client wasn't there yet, and we didn't say anything bad. I was talking to Arca, but we were just talking shop, yeah, and we were trying to get the project across the start line, and we were facing some difficult hurdles, and we were just expressing what some of the difficult hurdles were. And anyway, long story short, our AI note taker, when we're done, we had a great meeting. We sort of rescued the project. The AI note taker sent the notes to the client, but it included our entire conversation. Oh no, yeah, exactly. And so I had a very uncomfortable night's sleep and a very uncomfortable next morning conversation where I got the text of we need to talk. And this is the reason why I felt just terrible, because I obviously would never mean to make fence. And luckily, I went back and actually read it, and it wasn't bad at all. It was just truthful, yeah? And honestly, it led to a better result, because it got real, we got real, real quick, yeah? And that was okay, you know? And so I anyway, for anyone that's out there using AI note taker, which is at this point, pretty much everyone is just make sure you just pretend that there's always a camera on you and you're always being recorded. Yeah? Because yeah, that's so true. If
Mark D. Williams 42:29
you've been listening to the podcast for a while now, or even if this is your first episode, I talk about the contractor coalition summit all the time. Our next one is happening November 7 through November 10 in Chicago, and all the details can be found at the contractor, coalition summit.com You've got Brad Levitt, Nick schifr, Tyler, Grace, Morgan, Molitor and myself will all be there. We've got great content over three days. You've got builders from all over the country try to get it to about that 30 people number. And we'll have sponsors as well that add a lot of value to each one of these dedicated days where you're talking about contracts and spreadsheets and margin and whether you're doing fixed bid or cost, plus your pre construction agreements. I mean, the list goes on and on and on. If you haven't been following it yet, you should the contractor coalition summit Instagram page is giving you a steady diet of the conversations that are being had, a lot of promo reels. A lot of the interviews that I've done personally at Omaha, which was my first contractor coalition, where I'm part of the leadership, interviewed all 36 people that attended, and we're going to be unveiling each one of their interviews over the next couple of months, so people that were not able to attend and would like to can kind of get a better idea of the value that builders are getting. So if you're going to sign up and come to Chicago, you can type in the promo code, curious builder, and get $2,500 off. And we'll see you in Chicago when you look forward to like the next year and even like into next year. What are things that you're personally excited about with your business and just where you're at professionally?
Ali Awad 43:59
Hmm, you know, I'm excited about, so one of the big kind of tasks in being an architect is producing construction drawings, which are pretty detailed. The big can be 20 sheets. It can be 50 sheets for a house, depending on how big the house is and how detailed it is. And so I've always in, for the most part, I've always produced those myself. And I'm excited about a couple different options for having help with the drafting aspect of it is basically drafting is what it is, architectural drafting. So we have one project that's where I'm going to try a new drafting kind of service. And there are a few different ones out there. So I'm like, I said, I'm excited about exploring what
Mark D. Williams 44:42
it means for me. The short version of it, you're essentially, you can subcontract, not even than me, like I can't. I'm not the HVAC, I'm not the plumber. I'm essentially assembling. It's my relationships and team that essentially I assemble all them together and build. It's just fewer, let's say, subcontractors, but that's essentially what it is you're outsourcing some of the drafting. For a small firm in particular that's
Ali Awad 45:01
helpful? Yes, absolutely, outsourcing the drafting. If you were to I've
Mark D. Williams 45:05
always wondered about this, and I guess it's so depends. So it's maybe it's not even worth asking where I'm going with this is time. So let's say you did a 4000 5000 square foot house, and you're on the design side of it, like what either efficiencies in terms of time, or how does one even look at like, what is this drafting service going to do for you on a single project? Or is it once it starts getting into multiple projects at multiple phases, that's where sort of having some of the heavy lifting, because I hear about firms like, oh, we need another draft, or we need a project coordinator, or I know a lot of firms that are obviously outsourcing a lot of the SketchUp or the modeling, or whatever it might be, because they're like, Hey, we can deliver this to a third party, and they, we can give them the parameters, and they can really boost this up.
Ali Awad 45:49
Yeah, yeah, there's a, I mean, there's a lot of options for rendering, rendering your SketchUp models, drafting is similar, although it's a lot more specialized. It's a lot more specialized to Minnesota and the Minnesota building code and the way we build houses here. So I have used the draft. This is a few years ago. I used a drafting service that that was the outsource to overseas. And so they draft at night. We sent them red lines. They draft at night, or they during their day, yeah, during their day, and and fairly quick turnaround. Super low hourly rate. It was about a sixth of what my hourly rate was. But at the end of the project, I realized, okay, it took them more than six times as much time to do what I would do. And the really the quality, I mean, the project got built, it was fine, but the quality of the drawings were not something I was proud of so and as architects, we kind of hang on to the drawing. Still about the drawings, but, yeah, I wasn't very happy with the results, so I'm still that was a few years ago, but I'm looking forward to getting back on the horse.
Mark D. Williams 46:49
It's funny, they you already said about knowing the plans, and it makes sense. I mean, you drew the plans. You know, them inside and out. We had a, not even a we had a remodel. It wasn't the plan set wasn't even that big. I don't even know the number. Let's call it 2030, pages, which was fair amount, but tons of detail on them. And I remember my project manager at the time was still is, but he called this architect, and he said, Hey, I'm looking for this detail. And he's like, yeah, it's page 16.1 and I was like, he knew the plan like the back of his hand. And I remember this happened a number of times. And one day we're sitting down in Mike, my Pm is super calm, just vanilla. Just did nothing. Rocks this guy, and he just looks at me. He's like, So and so really knows their plans. And which is great. I mean, it's super cool. And I love that. And so his comment to our team was, hey, anytime you have a question, like, I don't expect you to know I mean, yes, I expect you to read them. I expect you to know them. But, like, I really know them, and I can tell you, obviously, why I did it that way. And I mean, they're the originator, and so I have a great amount of respect for that level of knowledge. I think the hard part sometimes is, if you demonstrate that level of knowledge, let's say the subcontractors, we expect the subs to read the plans, but are we as builders? Are we reading the plans? And everyone expects everyone to read the plans and to know the plans, which they should? I'm not saying you shouldn't, but we all sort of assume someone else on our team is knowing that. Like, yes, I read the plans, I know what I'm building. I know the majority of the specs, but like, it's my project manager, my site coordinator, that know it way better than I do. I mean, they're, I might be working on four or five jobs, but they're working on like, one or two, like, they need to know it better, because right? But then at what point do you train your subs to not read and to just call the pm or at what point do we train the PMs not to read the plan just call the architect? This is more just a high level. Yeah, see what you see. How you react to this? But yeah,
Ali Awad 48:42
no, it took me a long time to to come up with the right response when it because I used to go out on the job site every day, and I knew everybody, most of the trades people and some people, they would just ask me, What do you want to do here? What do I do there? And I learned it took me a long time to really to come to this. I said, Well, what does it say on the plans? Let's start there. And oftentimes the job is under construction. I've it was six months ago that I did the plans, and then since then, I've done eight different projects. And so I'm at that point, I maybe wasn't as versed in the details of the plans as just because it had been
Mark D. Williams 49:18
so much time. So how did they How often did they react or something?
Ali Awad 49:21
Usually was reserved for somebody who, like, every time. There's some people who, I don't know if they're just trying to needle me or what, but every time, like, what do you want to do here? What do you think? What do we think about this? What's it saying? Let What's it say on the plans, right? So oftentimes the answer was there on the plans, and helped me to remember to look at them, to look at them, and remember what kind of the goal was.
Mark D. Williams 49:42
So, you know, it's, yeah, again, it's just, there's, I was just, I was remarking, again, I haven't done a spec home in 16 years. We're doing one right now, the Mises project, and I can't wait to see it. I'm really excited. I'm I've been this excited about building a house since maybe my first house. Like I feel like a new little kid in a candy store with a new. Lego set. Maybe. Okay, but have you sold it yet? No, okay. Would you like to buy it?
Ali Awad 50:05
Is it for sale? Or is that it? Is it says available, available. Okay, okay, I didn't know what point you're gonna, yeah, entertain that, but yeah, it's probably a whole different podcast.
Mark D. Williams 50:13
It's a whole nother podcast. Yeah, no, it's, I think the plan right now is to wait till it's all done. You would know this better than most is, like, there's so many little details, like, I brought some people through, yeah, and they just can't see it, yeah? And so the advice I got, and I think was really good advice, is, their comment was, is to clients, not people in the industry, like, I'm gonna bring the most of the collective through at some point, I would imagine, yeah. And but their comment was, is, don't show it to anybody until it's 100% done, till the leaves are blowing, the candles are scented, the everything is stylized, and it's 100% done, because their comment was, is, you've got one shot to sort of impress people with what the end is. And I just love telling everyone about it. It's like, I guess, if I'm related to having a kid, it's like, we're on month two, and still got seven months till the baby's born here. And I'm talking about the name and everything else. But yeah, I guess you're just excited about us, your passions in it. But where I was going with this is I forgot just how many decisions are needed to be made in a house, because I'm making I am essentially the client. I'm the builder, right? It's like, yeah, my job to say yes, that's what we're going to do. And I've and even though I've empowered the talented design team, I told them jokingly that they have a five to one veto ratio over me because I hired them. I said, if the architect and I do this together, it's going to be too masculine and too sterile. And my women clients have not they don't want this house. They want it to be cozy and charming and traditional. So they partner with oho on this. And I'm like, I told Melissa oland, I said, you have five to one veto powers. And one time we were in a decision, she's like, what do you what do you think here? And she looks at me, she goes, don't make me use my power. She's so sweet, but then she's very talented. But my point is, like, I forgot, even though I do this every day for other clients, how many decisions need to be made. Now, I'm way too deep on this thing for sure, for one because it's like my kid, right? I'm just way too into the details. But it reminded me, I think every builder who, if you don't do spec homes. You should do one every once in a while, only to remind yourself of how many decisions we're asking the client to make. Yeah, and it's not their job to make them. Right. To some degree, it's
Ali Awad 52:11
a lot. Oh, yeah, yeah, either a spec home or build a house for yourself. That would be the other Yeah.
Mark D. Williams 52:15
Either one, you're kind of doomed. Either way. Yeah, yeah. Probably for yourself. I feel like, yeah, I feel like, you're right. Building it for yourself is probably more akin to what I'm doing right now. Yeah, I jokingly always say that I can't afford my own work. So it's like, whenever, if I ever have a client, sort of a complaint about the price of something, I'm like, don't feel bad. I can't afford my work either. You got to be careful with that one, because you got to read the room. There you go. What? What are you most excited for? I suppose, next year. I mean, are you kind of looking forward to? We're kind of wrapping up 24 Do you have any kind of longer term visions or things that you're excited about?
Ali Awad 52:48
Wow, I hope I can keep designing house projects and houses for people and the project I'm the thing I'm most excited about is the projects that are on that are in progress right now. So I should probably have better kind of long term business goals, but I want to make a living, and I want to have fun, and want to work with nice clients and but yeah, no, no. Huge goal other than to just keep doing what I've been a been fortunate to be able to do.
Mark D. Williams 53:13
Well, appreciate you coming out. It feels like Opportunity is knocking at the door. Nice timing, right on time. No, no less well, we'll have everything in your show notes. Appreciate you spending the time and coming in talk a little bit about your career and your perspective and thoughts and yeah,
Ali Awad 53:27
thank you. This was this was fun. I appreciate it
Mark D. Williams 53:29
very good. Thanks for tuning in. The curious builder podcast. If you like this episode, do us a favor. Share it with three other business owners. The best way that we can spread what we're doing is by word of mouth, and with your help, we can continue to help other curious builders expand their business. Please share it with your friends. Like and review online, and thanks again for tuning in.
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