Episode 140 - From Haters to Headlines: How Nick Schiffer Turned Skepticism Into a Masterpiece
#140 | Nick Schiffer | NS Builders | How Nick Schiffer Turned Skepticism Into a Masterpiece
In this episode of The Curious Builder Podcast, Mark Williams sits down with Nick Schiffer of NS Builders to dive deep into the journey of building the iconic 45 White Oak home. They chat about the challenges of pushing boundaries in luxury spec building, the importance of team effort and relentless vision, and how storytelling and true craftsmanship can shape both a project and an industry. Along the way, they share lots of behind-the-scenes insights, funny stories, and talk about the ripple effect that comes from following your passion—even when it makes you look a little crazy.
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About Nick Schiffer
As the founder and visionary behind NS Builders, Nick Schiffer has spent his life mastering the art of residential construction. His hands-on experience began in his father’s workshop, grew through formal training in carpentry and construction management, and matured over years in commercial and high-end residential construction. Known for his dedication to craftsmanship and forward-thinking approach, Nick leads the team at NS Builders with a commitment to detail, quality, and client satisfaction that ensures each project is an enduring work of art.
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Mark D. Williams 00:00
We're excited to announce that we're bringing back Sonic camp 2.0 on March 20, from two to 8pm we had this last year. We had 42 owners. This year, we're maxing out the capacity of the camp, which is going to be 60 people. We're going to have a wellness panel with some Everest summiters, as well as some iron men and women to compete and all about wellness and how they prioritize their health and wellness, not only in training, but in their lifestyles and in their business. And they're gonna have a two hour window of sauna and cold plunging in the lake, and then an amazing wood fired grill, Mediterranean style food at the end of that. So if you're interested, please head to cures, builder.com under retreats, you'll find everything there is about sauna camp on March 20 in Minnesota.
Nick Schiffer 00:44
I was so committed to doing this the right way, to the point where it's like, I guarantee you that I will sell the house, and we will be like, clean on the accounting, but I'm gonna be like, I'm just not happy with the way that that came out, so I'm just gonna do it. I gotta chip seal that, and that's gonna cost me 10 grand, or whatever it is, but we already bought the house, and we agree that it doesn't need to be it's like, yeah, but welcome to
Mark D. Williams 01:13
the curious builder podcast in Boston, in Boston and NS builders headquarters, the Office. Have you ever had a podcast from a alternate brand in this place? No, it's typically not allowed. Oh, wow. This is gonna be canceled, either that or either that, or this video will be torpedoed, or I will be Wait. You know, Boston is kind of where they invented concrete booties with the mob, like on the way to the airport, like it dropped off on a job site never seen again. Is that true? I have no idea. It's not good, yeah. So, yeah, everyone in the world knows about 45 white oak. I hope so. I know they do. I mean, I get asked about it all the time, really, yeah. They're like, you know, we're doing the project with PK architects on this remodel. And she's like, oh, yeah, we know 45 it's funny. She said, I don't think they knew. She's like, Oh, is that NS builders, or they had a funny way, like, everyone sort of finds it a different way, yeah, but no, it's obviously very well known, because you're an incredible marketer, as you well know. But it's interesting how people find it in different ways. And just the ripple effect, you know, you've got the pebble in the pond and the ripples that go out, yeah? You know, we were here a year ago, meaning the contractor coalition was in Boston, so I was here in September. Today's whole podcast, or not podcast, but like, video walkthrough, just to see how much has transpired over the last 13 months. Your reaction was like, crap. We're still building. I know you're like, I wish I was done. It was I could hear the inner clock just like cha ching. Cha Ching. That was really funny. You do enough video content, so I'm not going to go into all the specifics. Mine is more entrepreneurial. What have you? What's our big picture? What have you learned about yourself in this project?
Nick Schiffer 02:56
It's more about the resiliency and the ability to just continue to move forward under strenuous circumstances. I think that that goes back before. I mean, it's funny to keep referencing David Goggins book, but like, that whole book can't hurt me. Yeah, I mean, it just, I remember reading that, and just for so many reasons, I was like, man, like, I'm I'm a wuss. Like, this guy's, like, has went through hell, whether it's, you know, elaborated on or not. But like that, that book specifically, was just like, man, we are. He's got a famous quote in that, and I'm gonna butcher it, but he talks about how when you are at a point where you feel like you have to give up, you're at 70% of your capacity. And he made that up, like, that's not a factual thing, but it sticks with me where it's like, when I am at a point where it's like, I can't do this, I'm like, wait, I'm only at 70% I have 30 more percent to go. I am going to do this. So I think doing going after a project like 45 white oak was this, you know, kind of testament to just, it's going to be really hard. There's going to be challenges along the way. There's things that I've never dealt with, there's going to be circumstances I've never dealt with, there's going to be questions I don't know how to answer and and there's going to be a tremendous amount of just, Hey, you can't do that feedback. And as we discussed earlier, like, then watch me and, and that's how I've been, I mean, my whole life. But I think in this, in this specific example, has just been this relentless pursuit of, you know, endurance and, and, you know, tenacity through How hard can this be and and how successful can I be navigating it
Mark D. Williams 04:51
on a scale from one to 100 your expectations of what you thought was hard going into this versus. Where you're at right now. What it was before you went and you knew was gonna be hard, and you knew was gonna be difficult. You wanted to be hard. You were set up. Your DNA, you thrive.
Nick Schiffer 05:09
Ian put a percentage to it's more just the fact that, like, the stuff that I thought would be hard has coming and gone, and all the stuff that is hard is stuff I didn't have any awareness on, like it wasn't even in my elaborate on that. What do you mean by that? It just was, like, the financing of it, the difficulties of convincing people that this works, when everything says it doesn't the, you know, the and let's like, not just on the difficult things, but like, also the positive things of the amount, but the amount of support that there is behind it, which has led to navigating the difficulty and the difficult parts. I think if you go into a project and it's just all difficult, all difficult, it's just challenging. Like this doesn't work. It can't work. You know, we can't fund it. We can't do but you all and then you don't have anyone saying that you can like that, I think would be even that that's even harder. Agreed and and I think thankfully I I am not in that position. And is why I am so optimistic about this project, and why I think it will be so successful. Because I truly do believe that I'm doing something that no one else is doing, especially from the marketing perspective and the storytelling perspective. And that's not just me saying it. It's feedback I'm getting. You know, one of the biggest publications in the world was chatting with yesterday, and they're like, Yeah, you're you're the only guy doing this, like this, in this way, in this manner, and we love it, and we want to be part of it. And here I am looking at someone that I like, you know, look up to, telling me that they want to do content like I do. Yeah. So that's, you know, that that has probably been what has fueled me through the challenging times. And when I'm faced with, like a brick wall in front of me. You know, it's I either turn around and give up, or I bust through it. And, you know, you know, I don't think there's anything wrong with giving up, and I've talked about this on my podcast. But the idea of giving up is, you know, it's just okay, well, you've given you know, that's you went as far as you think that you can, you can and you give up. Like, the easier thing to do is just not to do it. And right now, the easiest thing for me to like, the easiest thing in the situation of what is hard would be just stop. Just stop. Tell everyone to go home, stop work, don't finish it.
Mark D. Williams 07:39
You think that would be the easiest thing at this point, yeah, because you're
Nick Schiffer 07:43
not, because you don't do the thing. The easiest thing is to not do it. You're running. You're running a marathon. You're at mile, mile 20. The easiest thing would be to stop and just not here's where
Mark D. Williams 07:53
it's different, because I love running analogies endurance. You walk off the course. You're done, great. You walk off the course on white oak. The house is still unfinished. You can't sell it, sure, but that's not the easiest thing. The easiest because the consequence of that action is a lot harder than staying with it. And what's the consequence? Consequence in this one would be, by assumed would be, you know, financial,
Nick Schiffer 08:16
sure, right? And then I don't pay it, okay? And then they, sue me and I go bankrupt. But my point is, if my point is, is I
Mark D. Williams 08:24
don't die, no, of course not. No, no,
Nick Schiffer 08:28
I understand. Like there's consequences. I'm not I'm not avoiding that. I'm saying that from a mental load, okay, that's a different Yeah, from a mental level, it's like, you know, the easiest thing would be, just don't do it. Just don't do the thing and do something that's easier. And so for me, it's like, All right, well, that's a fine outcome, but it's just not who I am and what I want. I want to continue to bash my head against a wall until, you know, I have completely exhausted all options. And you know, it's the question comes up. It's like, what if you can't sell it? I'm like, we will sell it. It's not a question of whether or not we can. We will sell it. There's enough awareness on this house. It's like, well, you're going to need a, you know, you're going to need a really great broker. It's like, well, no, we've, we've done the story my like, my wife and I are partners on that. She is the listing agent, and we and we have the marketing engine behind it. I don't need to bring awareness to the property. The property has been there is awareness around it. Now, it's a matter of funneling the right people in. And interestingly, doing something at this scale has opened me up to an entire network of people that I just didn't know nor even communicate with in the past, where it's like, oh, you're, you know, you're building a product that's in my world. And, you know, there's, there's people that like, I'd love to come see it. I just want to be very clear, though I could afford a 12 and a half million home. I'm not in the market, but I would love to come see it like, well, I just need you to come see it and then go home. Be like, Hey, Chuck, you got to buy this house. And that's what this is about. It's, you know, it's the you know, it's sharing, ultimately, it's a product for us, and ultimately it's we want to service a market that we just feel is completely underserved. And, you know, someone asked me, What's the demographic of this buyer, and the demographic of the buyer is someone that is at the peak of their career and would love to build a custom home, but don't have the don't have the time to dedicate to building a custom home, and frankly, probably doesn't trust the process of building a custom home, because their buddy that did it told them that him his wife almost got divorced. It was the most stressful time they were over budgeting, behind schedule. So what that person does is they go out and buy a regular spec home that's a big white box, and they get in, and then they either don't decorate and it's just kind of this underwhelming house, or they do decorate and they spend a million dollars with the interior designer trying to make it custom. And, you know, and when they go to their neighbor's house, it kind of feels the same. So we said, well, that person wants something better and more elevated. Let's, let's just build it and pretend that we're that person and just build you completely, you know, like completely resolved every decision, and then offer it.
Mark D. Williams 11:17
What I love about earlier on, you're talking about the load and the both positive and negative, Yin Yang. You know, this morning, we were working out early, and I was doing farmers carries, and it just dawned on me, like, that's
Nick Schiffer 11:29
the swearing where you're going, stuff you'll
Mark D. Williams 11:31
hear, if you hold it, if you only had negativity, you're unbalanced if you only have positivity. I mean, you know, you get an echo chamber of everyone telling you great, you're great, you're great, you're great. I mean, you do need a balance to keep you, whether it's your spouse, your team, the environment, wherever you find it from. But like, everyone has different fuels. We talked about fuel sources. You know, I'm surprised at how many people are skeptic, and maybe that's my they're just
Nick Schiffer 11:55
louder. Yeah, maybe that's it. You know, it's like a hateful comment. It's like, that's louder than the 10 people that told me I'm doing a good job,
Mark D. Williams 12:01
right? But you're also correct me if I'm wrong, I think you're also pre wired to hear that and then use it as fuel, because there's a
Nick Schiffer 12:08
part, yeah, but that's learned, yeah. Like, you know, we've been doing content for a decade, right? Which I told someone that yesterday, like, really, I'm like, yeah. I mean, like over 10 years at this point, and you just like, I mean, you can take the empathy route of like, Gary Vaynerchuk. It's like, when someone's, you know, says something hateful, it's like, just feel bad for them that they're going through something. I'm like, Yeah, I kind of tried that. But I also just like, you know, fine. You want to be dick. I'll be a dick back, or, I mean, be sarcastic back. It's
Mark D. Williams 12:38
like, Michael Jordan, you probably heard this before. Did you ever watch last dance? Yeah, remember the part where he would even when
Nick Schiffer 12:44
first reference that we have, I know today?
Mark D. Williams 12:49
Yeah, it was amazing series. But you know, basically he would make up slights to be motivated when he couldn't find one. Yeah? And, you know, sometimes, like we talked about this earlier, you know, one, someone once told me you can't make money on a podcast, watch me, watch me. Yeah. And so, you know, you can't build a $12,000,000.12 and a half million dollar spec, you know, modern home,
Nick Schiffer 13:09
right? It started that. It's like, Okay, watch me. And then we now we've done it, right? And it's like, well, not, you can't sell it, okay, right? Watch, watch me, right?
Mark D. Williams 13:19
But, yeah, I do personally think like I like it as a fuel source, but at the end of the day, like your vision and your commitment, that's always been your guiding light. From the first time I ever met you, what you wanted to do, what I really appreciated today, meeting a lot of your people in the field, is how you shared the story of how and I'd like you to share it again, but when the gentleman came up to you and basically said, Thank you for having me on this job site. You know, we as business owners and builders need to do a better job of thanking our subs for their partnership, and we do. I know you do. I do many builders, but we all can do better. It's like telling your kids you love them your spouse. I mean, it just it's important to validate
Nick Schiffer 14:01
the relationship, kissing them all Goodbye, good night.
Mark D. Williams 14:07
Let me know how that goes, get that get a camera crew on that one. That would be interesting. But in even, like the gentleman, the plaster gentleman I saw today, he came out of retirement to work on this house, because that's inspired. He was just this house, and I talked to him for maybe five six minutes today, and just ask him about his technique. And you do so much more plaster here, you know, on the east coast, than we do in the Midwest and and so I was just learning, you know, new terms and new things of how they do things. And, you know, just picking his brain, as I like to do as a curious builder, but to share the story of the of what that said to you.
Nick Schiffer 14:38
I was, I was walking into the job one day, and one of the carpenters stopped me, and he was just, you know, he was installing the thermary on the garage door, and the detailing on the garage door, like it was, just had to be really thoughtful, to the point where, like, they clad the whole garage door with solid pieces, and then they went back and they cut the seams out of the garage. Garage door. So, like, the garage door is in blank panels, and then they clad it with the thermary. But they didn't put it in pieces. They put it full so then they the curve cut would be the seam of the garage door. So it's perfect, right? And, you know, and they were painting, they basically painted the garage door behind it first. That way, if the cut went through, you'd only see black paint. So just, like, really thoughtful. And like, I really appreciated that and and we were just looking at it, and he goes, Nick, I just want to thank you for, you know, having me on this project. I was like, What do you mean? He goes, it's been a really, really long time since I've enjoyed what I've I'm doing as much as I am here, because I feel like I have the opportunity to put my best work. And it's that is the commitment, not, hey, I need you to be done with this today and stop thinking about a better way to do it and just get it done. And that has been, like, that's been pretty consistent throughout, like, to the point where, you know, there's trades that are over investing their time. You know, the plaster is a great example. You know, they're like, we went into it, and it's like, Hey, we got to try to work within this budget, like, you know, however that works for you. And then, you know, in a lot of ways, you know, I can't, I probably can't even fathom, like, they've totally over invested because they see the benefit long term. That's, that's their case, you know, alone is, you know, that is a very complicated piece, though, though similar in in, you know, esthetic I mean simple in esthetics, it is a complicated piece to pull off, and there's plenty of ways to have done that, but they did it the right way, and they took the time and cast it in place. And it will always be this thing that no matter who you are and when you show up at that house, it will be appreciated. And they understood that. And the benefit for them is that we're we're telling the story along the way. So that's their you know, will inevitably lead to them doing another one and a better one and more work. And through my whole career, like that's one of the things I really enjoyed, is like building people. You know, we had a metal worker was building automobile parts, and he wanted to get into architectural metal, and I hired him. He did the handrail at White Oak, but we hired him years ago. I was like, let's do a handrail together. And he just got super cool with it. Ian, and super creative and like him. And I like, you know, we're on site, like detailing everything. And he just, you know, detail, like beyond what is expected and most people would consider necessary, and just nailed it. And then, and I remember, like, we were promoting it and talking about it, and then it's like, he's never done another automobile part since, like, or maybe he has, but, like, not, he wasn't doing it for, like, he got into the architectural metal because of it and, you know, and when I met Colby and his team with the plastering, same thing, like, he was doing a lot of you know, traditional, like, what we would consider to be more traditional, driven plaster around here, and was trying to get into more the artistic and, like upscale plaster. And we gave him, you know, we kept giving him opportunities to do something that was bigger and grander and and and promoting, promoting it that has led him to only doing that, and that's, you know, and the team that put the cladding on the house, you know, they're a roofing and siding company, and they, you know, they do plenty of just like normal roofing and siding jobs. But because they did white oak, people were like, Oh, you can. You've done these crazy things like and they want to know about it, so I get to see, like, I'm watching him on social media right now, and he's got this cool job coming up, and it's, you know, I'm not saying I'm not taking responsibility, but I'm like, I love this for you because, like, you get to leverage what we're building as the opportunity to say, I can do cool Shit and watch, you know, and watch me, yeah, it's interesting.
Mark D. Williams 19:03
I was thinking about vision in the role that a leader has, you know, I'd mentioned today, I don't know the whole quote, right? The Eminem thing, where it says, like, vision is scary, right? So some people are intimidated by a big vision. Some people are inspired by a big vision. Sometimes ourselves. Sometimes our own vision can can scare us. There's a verse in the Bible, I want to say it's in Proverbs where it says the people perish, where there is no vision. And what kept resonating with me today, as I saw the craftsmen and I saw you interact with them. And you know, I've seen it obviously from afar and in person as your friend and as a colleague, and just watching it, but seeing people sort of all form in seeing your vision, you're very good brand ambassador for yourself, for your for your various companies. But because it's so maniacally focused, it's left to such a huge impact on the people that are with you, because they are now brand ambassador. For you and the story that you shared, maybe you'll share it again for us. Is the work that was undone. You said it was it was fine. You were not on your best that day, yeah, you know, probably mentally, but they protected your brand. Share that story because I left a
Nick Schiffer 20:15
baby. I mean, Patrick is, you know, a lead carpenter for us, and he is stepping to the role of essentially, site super on 45 white oak. And I wish I could remember what the detail was, but he we were on site, and he's like, I want to get your opinion on something and and he was like, I feel like we should rip this out or redo it. And I was like, You know what? It's fine. Like, it's fine. And I came back, I think, the next day, and he's like, I knew you weren't I knew you didn't mean that. And it was like, I was, you know, overwhelmed in the moment, and had other stuff on my mind, and I was just like, you know, I was defeated. And I was just like, just leave it. And he knew that that wasn't true to our brand, because for, you know, he's been here, you know, I think seven plus years at this point, I should know that that man, but I don't, but he's, he's our longest standing employee and young kid, and he came totally green, and he's learned the way of how we build, and He's watched me rip out stuff that is totally fine, but it could be a little bit better. And and he knew that this was, you know, a flagship opportunity for our brand, and protected
Mark D. Williams 21:32
it. Think of something interesting. We won't go into depth right now on it, I'll have to gather my thoughts and maybe just list them. You probably would enjoy the list. I was thinking about a shout out to Melissa oland from oho interiors, who I'm partnered with on misuse I met so we're on the roof of 45 white oak. And I mentioned this to you, you know, at this, at this skylight, one of my never, Evers, which evidently I'm going to remove now, and because it was really cool and you fell in love with two skylights, I did. I fell in love with a lot of skylights. I'm gonna have to change my never Evers for the audience. My joke with Nick was my two never Evers is a skylight and a window and a shower. I got both, yeah and What'd you call me? You said something like you cop out, or, you know,
Nick Schiffer 22:17
whatever, yeah, probably something more uncouth. I com.
Mark D. Williams 22:26
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Nick Schiffer 23:12
So that that is, I appreciate hearing that, because that was a consideration for every decision we made. And, you know, so I had a friend of mine who's just a little bit more conservative in terms of real estate investing, and he was like, I'm not getting involved in this. This is nuts. But he we were talking about, I was talking about the driveway, and the driveway is asphalt right now, and I'm, and I was like, I'm, I can't leave it asphalt. I have to, I have to chip seal this. Like, it just can't be a big black driveway. It's just not the right fit. Like the house is so subtle. And he's, and he's, like, I totally agree. It's the first thing that you see. And then so he's, and then we're talking about the staircase, and, like, that's the second thing you see. And then the handrail going up the staircase is this first thing you touch, touch. It's this, like, unbelievably well fabricated, you know, by my friend Rich Costa, stainless steel, steel handrail that is, like, all the detail is there with this integrated lighting and flush plate into the brick and and you get up, and then, then there's this flush transition to the thermary decking. And you walk in the house, and all you're you're immediately grant like greedy, which you don't see right now because everything's covered, but the brick that you're stepping on outside flows directly through the mud room on the inside, and it's all totally seamless right into the house. And then you're seeing this floor to ceiling millwork, and it's beautiful. And you turn right, and then you see millwork and kitchen and glass, and then you turn right again. Then you see this 25 foot atrium with the skylight, and it's to your point, it's moment after moment. And I, and I was explaining this, I was like, I need these to be holy shit moments all the way through the house. And it just needs to be like, Oh my like, holy Can I swear on your podcast? Ah. Holy shit, I just don't want to, I don't want to pay for all these sensors if I have to. But like that became the discussion and, and, you know, I'll give you an example where we didn't do it. And in the primary bathroom, you have this blue, like unbelievable, 13 foot tall, wet room, right? And the tub is rendered as a solid block of marble milled into a bathtub. And I priced it, and I very seriously considered it. It was $75,000 to mill the piece of marble into a bathtub. And I'm like all things considered, that's not that bad, considering what you pay for an undermount tub, the fabrication of the stone, the install it, like, you know, you you're not 75 grand, but, like, it adds up pretty quick. You're probably 50% of that cost. So, but I, but I didn't do it, and I was like, no one, like, someone's gonna look at him. Be like, that's cool, but forget, like, immediately move on where they're gonna look at the shower and see 13 foot ceilings, like, holy shit, and then look down to tell me, like, Oh, that's cool, and keep moving. And one of the original decisions that we didn't do in terms of money, like saving costs, which was this, this whole idea around this moment, was the windows, and we had a manufacturer come to us and say, Hey, we can do a white oak interior that's fake, and it will save you. I mean, it was hundreds of 1000s of dollars. What do you mean by fake? It was a printed white oak on a UPVC window. And I was like, No, do you see a sample? Yep, you could not tell if I put it in front of you, like you would not know it matched our floor sample. It was unbelievable. You touched it, different story. So you touched when you touched it, you're like, oh. So I kept playing the scene out in my mind that I had a buyer walk through, and they're like, this house is beautiful. And then they they touch the window, and then, and I kept saying out loud, oh, there's where they cheaped out because they look for it. They look for the one thing that they cop, that they know there's something right. And I was like, can't do it like we got to spend the couple 100 grand more and do solid white oak 100% you know, just commit it. And then it was the door hardware. And you, you saw the door hardware today? I mean, I Yeah, and it was, I had the same exact reaction. We sat at a table, and we had beautiful door hardware by another brand that is very commonly used, and I loved it. We loved it. And then we took out the is a hardware because, of course, it's pronounced, is a and he's like, feel this. And I've been it was like, I wish, you know, in a movie when someone touches something and then all of a sudden, like, it just like, like, bright lights,
Mark D. Williams 27:41
because that's what happened. I grabbed it. I felt you. Just felt immense. We immediately, immediately, the gravity, the weight of it. I
Nick Schiffer 27:48
wanted this. I He handed to me, and I held it. I was like, shit. The best part, I was like, This is so much better. And I was like, how much is more, is it? And he's like, Well, it's three times the cost, but there's not that many. So like, you know, it's only, like, $8,000 for the more for the whole house. I'm like, okay, that's, you know, the hard
Mark D. Williams 28:15
part is, and, well, you know, because you've just done it and, you know, let you talk about on your own podcast. But like, you know, as you go down that road of like, you know of the best, the best, the best. I mean, it just keeps on. I mean, honestly, Could you, could you spend, actually, sorry, I'll come back to this question later. If you had $3 million more right now, could you spend it in the home?
Nick Schiffer 28:40
Yes, not making anything better, but doing more, doing more. So nothing in that house. If I had more funds, there's nothing in that house. I would replace, nothing that answers my question. I would, I would, you just do more. I would do more things right? I would do all the shades. I would do 100% of the furniture. I would, you know, yeah. I mean, I don't even know what
Mark D. Williams 29:08
else like, yeah, you answered the question, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Nick Schiffer 29:12
I mean, that's like some in another way, like people have like, what would you have done different? Or what was your like? Is there anything you regret doing? And I'm like, No, we, I was so I was so committed to doing this the right way, right to the point where it's like, there's gonna be things that I guarantee you that I will sell the house, and we will be like, like, clean on the accounting, but I'm gonna be like, I'm just not happy with the way that that came out, so I'm just gonna do it right like, like, the chip seal in the driveway. Like someone might buy the house before it's even chip sealed without even knowing. And I'll be like, Hey, by the way, I got to chip seal that, and that's going to cost me 10 grand, or whatever it is, but we already bought the house, and we agree that it doesn't need to be. It's like, Yeah, but I need it to be. You
Mark D. Williams 29:54
mentioned something a couple years ago when I first met you. It was a really radical concept, and I'll bring it up now, because it's more. Into art where, like, you know, you know, Bob, in this example, buys the home, but really, it's your home, yeah. And I just, but what I like about it? We'll go into that maybe some other time. But like, what I like? I've
Nick Schiffer 30:14
had some pretty insane conversations about this. I
Mark D. Williams 30:16
would love to hear more about that sometime, if you want, or talk about it on the podcast if you want to. But like, I just like the idea that the ownership is there, though. I guess it's like, it's the legacy, it's the it shows the forward vision that, you know, I mentioned today. I forget what was on skylight, I guess, right? Like, you know, I don't want to build in Minnesota where I build, you know, we have to work your homes for 10 years. But I'm, I don't want to build a house that for 10 years. I want, I want this thing to outlast my lifespan, yeah, well beyond it. And we don't know. I mean, we're using so many new technologies that didn't exist five years ago, 10 years ago, you know, whatever, we'll see how it all assembles. That's a future. That's my kid's problem. So I'll be dead by then. But I guess where I'm going with this. I appreciate the commitment to something that lasts, and your sort of maniacal devotion to your vision, just like this chip seal a pretty simple thing, but they did that. Like, I want to do that, because that's what I've committed to do, regardless if you understood that or not when you bought the home. It's sort of irrelevant to this. I appreciate that. Yeah, yeah,
Nick Schiffer 31:13
yeah. I mean my, my, my whole thought, like, just for your listeners, like, was this idea around how they went about nfts. And this was the basically as though, like, the NFT is yours, but if you put it back in the market and you sell it, that original creator of that NFT would get some royalty on it. And that was, like, this whole conversation around where it's like building a home and you buy it and or it was actually, really, what it was, is for the custom home builder. But it could be implied here where it's like, you buy, if you buy white oak, 12 and a half million dollars. You buy it, you live in it. When you in, it appreciates, and then you sell it in two years for 15 million, that a portion of that profit would come to me. And I've said, and I, like, everyone on the bus was like, What are you talking like? I think it's brilliant. It's brilliant. It would be incredibly challenging to like, you know, there, it would get shut down so quickly legally, yeah, and, but the idea is that we are, like, I don't get it because I built the house. I get it because I'm your Stu I'm the steward to that house, and I continue to maintain that home, and I think that's where the value for us is, like we become the steward we are. We are maintaining the home like it is yours. You live in it, you own it. You won't have the deed. But like we're here and this, this was something that we committed to in the build, but we're committing to beyond that. And when you go to sell it, the the the agreement is that we, you know, get 1% whatever it is, right, like, as a thank you, as you know, because we've essentially allow helped get that home to if
Mark D. Williams 32:59
you're a custodian of this asset, if you want to go black and white, but it's more than that. Your custodian of this art piece, of this monument, this testament to something that's just so unique and so
Nick Schiffer 33:09
because the idea that we, we invest years of our life to build something for someone, especially something that is like on the the, you know, on the forefront of like artistic real estate, you and then we just pass it on and we're no longer involved like that. Just seems
Mark D. Williams 33:29
crazy. Always had an issue with our industry in at large is we spend not so much in the spec home case, but just in a client. We spend a ton of money, assets, time, reputation brand to acquire a client. The average builder does not, let's say you just pick an easy number, 100 homes. You'll build more than that. But let's just say it's 100 how many of those would be repeat clients? I bet less than 10. So less than 10% you spent all this money to acquire, if you will, a client. So the repeatability of it is, you're sort of hampered in, you know, I think that's why service or remodels, and it's a different podcast, but like, from it, we spend a ton of capital for kind of, like a one off. It's kind of a dumb business model, frankly, in many ways,
Nick Schiffer 34:16
which is, which is what I don't like about being a custom home builder, I have to be everything to everyone where I'd rather build a product, and someone purchases our product, where it's, you know, I'm not saying we build 100 white oaks, but I am saying that in the sense that white Oak is a product, but it is the design of said product is, you know, ultimately under the brand. And we build these brand, these products underneath the NS builders brand as these are homes that that we design, that we like, that we completely resolve, that are completely furnished. Are documented, you know, through, you know, extensive media and cinematography and and you and you get to buy one, and it's an, it's an NS builders home.
Mark D. Williams 35:11
Two questions. One, just wanted to re emphasize the point is, you had, I believe, 17 beams in the great room and 25 in the kitchen. Roughly, roughly, yeah, and it was a day per beam. So let's call it two guys one day per beam, Yeah, amazing detail. And they're all single length or single no seams, no seams, and they're all made from a single place in northern France, yeah. And what was interesting is, right now, probably within what 20 minutes, you could find out what tree, where it was lodged, going back to the documentation, that's where I'm going with this is, like, again, I don't know that much about art, but like, you know, like a deed of authenticity, like this,
Nick Schiffer 35:55
I there is a deed about, like, there is a deed for that tree. Yes, yeah. I actually do want to I do want that information.
Mark D. Williams 36:03
Go get it. We'll be right back. One of the things, and I do you think that 45 white elk is a project, or is it a standalone brand? It's a
Nick Schiffer 36:16
it's a product under a brand. You know, there's the brand of 45 white oak, which is just very project specific. But it's not like miso house where, you know, we build multiple 45 white oaks. 45 white oak is the address. It was like, you know. So it's not, you know, it's not a model home. It's that is a product of its environment. The site is what created that shape of the home, and that shape of the home is what created the space within and the and the texture and the materials, like all of that was driven by the site. The brand is and as builders and our commitment to quality and craftsmanship. And, you know, experience,
Mark D. Williams 37:07
no, I agree, hearing you talk about it, and then just, you know, seeing how your mind works along. And I know you like, obviously, with Vincent from up possible. And like, what are, what are things that if you were to do this again. So, yeah, sorry, I did say that. That's funny. You said that I put when not if the home sales, you already have another site already
Nick Schiffer 37:31
located. We do what purchase. We're already ready to go.
Mark D. Williams 37:36
You haven't started designing on Have you know what would, what will what will change? I know that I'm not gonna speak
Nick Schiffer 37:44
for you, the approach to fundraising and pre construction. Can you get more specific? We have a proof of concept so fundraising will be easier, because people will see that, oh, they've done this, and it worked. And, you know, I mean, let's just be clear, like we're building something on spec for significantly above what an appraised bank. I mean, an appraisal will come in at based on bank standards to the point of almost double, which is a massive on paper risk. So for us to pull that off, it proves that there's a business model that now it doesn't mean that there's just hundreds of people lined up to to to have a home like this, that will be determined based on how it sells and what it sells for, and how many people are interested, but it does prove that it worked, and ultimately proves our process was what got us here. I don't, you know, there will be the, you know, the skeptics that say it was luck and whatever, but like beyond that, so fundraising will be done differently where it's we now have significant trust and confidence going into it. So in theory that fundraising should be easier, because fundraising for a project that is twice the bank's appraisal is very difficult, as many can agreed.
Mark D. Williams 39:16
But what percent of homes in this market that you build in even have banks involved
Nick Schiffer 39:25
on spec, well,
Mark D. Williams 39:27
on the sales side, I get that you're involved with banks on your side. I
Nick Schiffer 39:32
don't know, I don't know that number. I would be totally making it up.
Mark D. Williams 39:36
Just interject my in our market, Minneapolis, I guess I can only speak for the clients that I've had over the last 21 years. But like, once the home gets above, say, two and a half, 3 million, yeah, they're cash buyers. They're not involving a bank. It doesn't mean that their money doesn't cost money.
Nick Schiffer 39:53
And although, yeah, right, but they have more access to funds,
Mark D. Williams 39:56
yes, and the appraisal that matters less is, do they value it?
Nick Schiffer 39:59
Right? And. And that's where. So my argument would be, like, a friend of mine was, you know, he's done some specs, and we were talking about, he goes. I always lose money on specs, and I'm like, why he goes? I just put way too much into him. And he cautioned me, your friend, no good. But I had said, but? And I asked him, like, did you really put everything into it, or did you scale back on anything? A single thing? He was, well, I had to scale back. Like, that's the issue is that people will over invest, but they don't go all the way. So you start spending money. You haven't crossed the threshold of it being this irreplaceable thing. Example, you restore a 1967 Camaro, and you restore it just to use whatever parts, and you put it back together, and you do a killer job. It's worth X. You do that with like serial number, like original parts, like sort like, you have increased the value tremendously. Also diamonds, lab grown diamond, real diamond, they are the same exact thing in like with the exception of that, a real diamond was pulled from the earth and the lab grown was done in a lab, but, but, but from composition, they are the same product. But there's this inherent value, because that one was harder to get, and I was talking about to further that. That example is that in 15 years from now, we will be able to 3d print a car, right? Like 3d printing will become a thing. We will be able to print whatever we want. So going back to the car analogy, original 1967 Camaro like huge value. I can go turn my printer on and print that car. That car that is printed is exactly the same thing as the one that was built in 1967 it can be materially the exact same thing. But the 1967 is more valuable. That's like, that's where we're going with this. Is because we've attributed the value to it. So for me, in the spec, the you know, this, this speculative build, is that you need to cross the threshold of being in this realm of, you know, there is no other option like this is an original. I
Mark D. Williams 42:23
saw something really interesting pop up on my Instagram a week or two ago, and I didn't send it to you, but I did post it, and it was, you're seeing those dear grandpa letters, No, dear, dear boy, yeah. But that says I signed grandpa, yeah, and it said, competition is for lose losers. Create a one of a
Nick Schiffer 42:41
con? Yes, I that's so funny, I actually want to send
Mark D. Williams 42:44
that to you. Okay, truthfully, that is my, one
Nick Schiffer 42:48
of my favorite counts right now, and I, and I've shared quite a few on my story and with my friends, and it's always like, dude, super Grandpa is on. Grandpa is honorable. Like, it's probably a 17 year old kid, but that's fine.
Mark D. Williams 43:00
Like, I picture him as, like, a world war one vet who likes, no, it's
Nick Schiffer 43:04
someone, I mean, maybe, I mean, hopefully, it's someone that's listening to his grandpa right, or taking old letter. It's, but they're so good. They're very it's, and I love that stuff because, I mean it for me, it fires me up, because it reminds me, it's like, why you're
Mark D. Williams 43:19
doing it. I mean, you think this is gonna lead to my next question, but I was thinking about, we already talked about you being a visionary, and how the vision can be scary, and how, but then people align to it, because you're giving something aspirational. You know, the vision is something you go towards. The scary part is the drive. That's sort of like, it's like the fire. It's like, forget the Explorer that went to South America, burned all the ships, and everyone had to go to North America. And, you know, do their, you know, do terrible things and conquer land, but whatever that, there's no going back. And there is some freedom in that. Like, you've gone far enough you have jumped off the diving board. And like, you know, you you planning on water being in the pool when you hit it. But regardless, you've already, we've already we've already taken the job, you're already gone. No, I went too far down that analogy, and I forgot my freaking question.
Mark D. Williams 44:16
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Nick Schiffer 45:23
literally cannot follow any more accounts on Instagram. Oh, you serious? There's a max. What's the max? I think 7500 it was like, I tried to follow someone the other day, and it was like, You cannot. Is that why you unfollowed me? I did. Yeah, I need to make room. That's fine. Yeah, hold on. Let me check, yeah, 7500 so I actually was, I'm following people make some space, yeah. So what inspires me is that there's a few things, but it's the I love the pursuit. I love the pursuit period, but I love the the the I the the team effort pursuit, to go after an obnoxiously large goal. And we were talking in the car earlier about how I could build one house at a time and then have a totally different career that would feed that, and I would make more money. Like, that's a fact. That's not it. That's not even an opinion. Like, that's factual. And, you know, I love everyone in this in this office, but it's not like I'm only building because I want them to build. It's that that is what I I want as like, collectively, it's like, this is a team effort. I love the fact that Doug is part of this. I love the fact that Vincent and Julian in the office are part of it. I love the fact that Ken and every and everyone else is on this team is, you know, in the pursuit of doing something that is just like, wildly great. And that part of, you know, I reference Bugatti a lot and but I love that their story, and I love, you know, the way that in which there's so much I love about that, and I've it that brand specifically inspires me. And there's a video of the mistral model, an open top car. I think it broke 300 miles an hour, like it was a world record for an open top car. And it's a small, like Docu series clip, but it's so good, and it's just this, like, heavily cinematic video that talks about it, interviews, a few people, shows the car, it just like a beast going around the track, and then the whole team celebrating that. I love that and like that's what inspires me.
Mark D. Williams 47:58
Good answer, the you mentioned in the car, what was the Bugatti quote? It was about, like, the VW thing, yeah, making, yeah, like, making money
Nick Schiffer 48:08
or so, like, I was, I made this reference before, and someone was like, Yeah, but Bugatti is, like, VWs a little play sandbox that they play in. It's like, well, that's fair, you know, like, it is their play money and and, yes, they were not a profitable company, I think in the Veyron era, that they just weren't, they weren't overly profitable, but they have built such an amazing brand around their cars and their company that now they build special edition vehicles. And the LA, the latest one I was looking at. It was a 99 it was 99 vehicles that they would they were going to manufacture, and they were pre orders, and it was, I think, in between five and $6 million for that pre order. And you get, you're, you're, you're buying a five or $6 million vehicle, and you're pre paying for it. And then Bugatti is, like, all right, we'll go, we get $550 million like, now we'll build your car. And that's, that's cool. Like, that is the and the other thing is, this whole like, the approach is, they're not looking at is, like, all right, we only have five and a half million dollars to build this car. How do we build the best car we can for five and a half million it's, Hey guys, I need you to build the best car you can. This is the parameters. We want it to be the fastest car, or we want it to be the lightest car, or we want it to be whatever their their goal is. That's the pursuit. And what it takes to get there is what what it takes and and that is, like, that's, that's extreme, like you're going after something that is just like, full commitment, you know, no compromise. And I love that. I was
Mark D. Williams 49:51
thinking so at the Boston Airport, it's been a while since I've been here, but as I was walking through they had kind of an ode to NASA. The and to the Kennedys, you know, let's go to the moon. And they had on the wall all these different things that were invented. We should change that to let's go to 45 white oak. What would you have to donate to make that happen? That's a great idea, actually, pretty good marketing idea. But the point of it was, is all the things that came with the pursuit of that. And we won't have time on this podcast, but it'll be interesting in your career in the next year, five years, 10 years, you know, however long your career is and your pursuit is, the things that this home and the ripple effect we started off this podcast with, like, the ripple effect and how far it's gone, places that you can't see, right? And, you know, the texts that I get, like, you know, I'm sure when we post stories about this, you know, I'll get, you know, interactions with, you know, this, that, or another thing. And it'll be just interesting to have this podcast a couple years from now. What are the, what are the things that that came from this? What are, what is the, what is the ripple effect? And it just that's really,
Nick Schiffer 51:01
you know, one of the things that pushed me over the edge to actually do this was Jonathan Ward from Ian four by four being on the modern craftsman podcast, and him talking about how he sells Broncos for $250,000 and I was like, how did you do this? Like, how he's like, I just did it. I was like, I've always had this dream of building just the home I want and just selling it for whatever price it costs. He goes, You should do it.
Mark D. Williams 51:26
How long ago was that? Right before I saw white oak? Yeah, but like, specifically, like, three years, four years.
Nick Schiffer 51:31
Well, we bought white oak in 2023,
Mark D. Williams 51:36
so you, like, roll off the podcast, and you're just like, I
Nick Schiffer 51:38
have to go back. I'd be curious. Doug can probably pull up Jonathan ward. But I mean the first time, no, the second time, I am curious because I texted him when we when we started. I said, John, I'm doing it. He goes, good luck. And he's like, let me know when you sell it. I want to know.
Mark D. Williams 51:59
So he said, Good luck. You gotta tell the story about Rory, his comment, that might be one of my favorite things that happened today. I laughed so hard when you told me the
Nick Schiffer 52:07
story. Yeah, our photographer is, I mean, he's arguably the most talented architectural photographer, photographer in the world, and we he came, you know, you have to book him, you know, over a year in advance, and he came to shoot, and we were still under construction, and we were there super early in the morning, super late at night. Shoots on film, just like an unbelievable like artist when it comes to photography, but we're in the backyard, and he like, he's asking questions like this, like, why are you doing this? What's your vision? What's your vision? Like, what's your plan? Like, is this one? One is this many? And I'm just going on and on and on and on on, and he's got his head in the hood of the the camera, and he stops, he goes, Nick I have toured, I have photographed some of the most incredible projects around the world. I've met some unbelievable people. You know, I got to introduce you to this guy because, like, I feel like he's, he's, he's very similar, but you were fucking crazy. And I was like, and, but I, I was so excited. I was like, yes, like, there's, it was, it was so funny, because it's validating and like, Am I doing something that is insanely wrong all in the same like heartbeat?
Mark D. Williams 53:31
But I think passion. People are attracted to passionate people. People are attracted to a common vision people. Okay, yeah. May, 28 2023 that's pretty cool. You should start billing him. We bought it. We bought it in May. I think, well, that's 28th What do you have two days to buy it? Or what I'm gonna
Nick Schiffer 53:59
have to go back and look at that, because we didn't think you talked about it the first time it came on. Maybe,
Mark D. Williams 54:08
maybe we talked about in the first time, same deal, religious, the date shuffle, yeah. But going back to the passion thing, I think you know people we talked about the say, you know you mentioned the Bugatti clip. And one of the my favorite podcast founders is one of my
Nick Schiffer 54:21
favorite. Did you listen to Bugattis founders?
Mark D. Williams 54:24
Yeah, it's been a while. I just made a note to re listen to it again. As I told
Nick Schiffer 54:28
you, I sent it to my investor. I'm like, listen to this podcast, please. Now you will understand my pursuit,
Mark D. Williams 54:33
and mine is Walt Disney. So you know, plus, I was just at Disney a week, two weeks ago, and they asked
Nick Schiffer 54:38
Walter, big Disney guy, right? Like, you wear those?
Mark D. Williams 54:40
No, no. That'd be Brad. That'd be Brad. I think I'm pretty sure Brad has a Moana tattoo on his neck or something. Just kidding, but you see some strange things. It could
Nick Schiffer 54:52
be Maui. It could be, don't, don't tattoo Moana. Yeah, that's Maui school. I
Mark D. Williams 54:57
mean, you were referencing Hey, hey, today, well, hey, is. The best is pretty great. Yeah, his eyes are like, No, what I was going with Walt Disney is they asked him when he was creating, you know, Disney World, you know, how much is this gonna cost? And he said, I'll let you know when I'm done innovating. Yeah, and it's hard when you're down that road of passion and excitement and the things, it's, you know, your head down, and not that you're not looking up occasionally and your vision, but like, you are into this thing so deep. And, yeah, I think, I think it's, it's cool when people in society, not just in our community, I find inspiration in all kinds of people. And a lot of times they are crazy. I mean, I think, well, heck, well, you
Nick Schiffer 55:37
have, I mean, you have to be. And honestly, this is like, I mean, cliche or not. Like anything great requires, like, the fortitude like this. When you look back at the all of the greats, like it always is the same story. Don't do this. This doesn't work and but that's the that is the average. Most people are average, and most, like most people would choose to do the take the easier route. Because why not? Why not have a great life and travel and like or not, travel like whatever, like, whatever the case is, like, everyone's different, but most, most people live a very average life and make decisions that are that that allow them a very kind of, like coasting, you know, lifestyle where I believe that will come through the pursuit of going for like, great things. But I also have this like, Well, I've always thought that. And Tyler called it something, the the arrival. It's like, the like, when you when you think, like, oh, once I get here, I'll be good. I forget what he called the nature. Well, just like, oh, when I'm when you're 14 years old, like, once I have my license, my life's gonna be awesome. Yeah. And then it's like, 16 it's like, once I'm the metric just keeps moving, yeah, and so me, it's like, once we sell this, like we're gonna be great. It'll be something and it will be something else. And, you know, Will I ever learn to take a deep breath, look backwards, man, that was fucking crazy, but we did it. And look what, look what came out of it. And the issue. It's, it's, you know, it's the same issue with living someone with every day, living with someone every day, and not realizing how they change. Where it's like someone that doesn't see you for years and then you show up. It's like, oh my god, you put, you put on weight, or you lost weight, or your hair is gray, or whatever the case is. It's like, when you see it every day, it's hard to recognize. So in business, it's the same thing. It's like, you know, it's going to be hard to recognize that man. This was the launching point for when we went from 10 million a year to doing 20 million a year. And only projects for, you know, that were architect led projects that we were, you know, inspired by. And I think, because when you look back, it happens that way, but in the moment, doesn't,
Mark D. Williams 58:05
I think, you know, you mentioned in the beginning of the podcast about David Goggins and he, you know, ultra running, or whatever you're like in the moment. And you know, however far you are, you still have more levels to give. And I think like any of us, like you, you have to, you have to. We talked about this on the car right over here, you have to compartmentalize parts of your life sometimes to get through the next hurdle, whatever it might be. And I've found probably less so for business, but more for altered running specifically or something hard, like narrowing it down to like, the thing you control, like, Can I run 100 yards? If I can't do that? Can I run 10 yards? Can I run one step? Like, whatever the thing is to during this has ever gotten to the point where you're like, I just need to get through this week, this day, this hour?
Nick Schiffer 58:56
Yeah, it's every week, every week. Yeah, yeah. It's, well, I mean, the running analogy is great because it's like, when you're running and you're in pain, it's like, I just got to get to that telephone pole, and you get to that, and then the next, and then the next, and the next. And, you know, the marathon is a great example, because when I ran, I just, you know, I hated, I don't like running. And it was like, it to me, it was, this is mental, you know, I do things that I don't like because it makes me a stronger person. Like, that's like, that's what I went into it knowing. And, you know, mile 1718, 1920, like, I'm just, like, smoked. I don't want to do this, but I'm like, I'm not 20. I might as well, like, bust this out. And it's like, I ran, and then I walk, and then I ran. I'm like, I got to get there. So then, you know, you come around on Boylston Street and people are screaming, and I'm just like, Fuck it click, it in gear. Go, and I go. And it's like, You're in so much pain. And I'll and I and it's, you get across the finish line, and you're like, you're smoking. It. You grab a water and you get your metal, and I'm like, 30 seconds later, I'm like, Oh, I'm fine. It's like, that, that's it. And it's like, in like, 45 seconds ago, you were like, my life is ending. Now you're just all sudden, like, Hey, where's my family? Let's go. Let's go celebrate, right, you know? And I mean my, my, from my wife's side, I remember when we had our second child, he when he was born, the second, it must first or second, definitely not the third. But when he, you know, we'll say a second. When he was born, my wife holds him for the first time, and she looks and she's and she's smiling, and she goes, I want another kid.
Nick Schiffer 1:00:53
Whoa, in that moment, in the moment, wow. And I, what did you say? I was like, whoa. I was like, We he is 32 seconds home. I was
Nick Schiffer 1:01:07
like, What is going on here? And but it was like, all that pain and going through the delivery, and just like the the nine months of being uncomfortable and all of a sudden there's just like, the release. And it's like, I want all of this again. Yeah, the thing that doesn't
Mark D. Williams 1:01:28
break you makes you stronger. And even if it breaks you, it makes you stronger, you know, I think you know specifically about running. It's like, you know, it doesn't matter the distance, honestly, at 5k then you do a 10 Mile, then then the 5k seems short, and then you do a half marathon. Now, the 10 Mile seems short. It's the mind is insane. Your body can almost handle anything. I think Vince Lombardi had a quote back from like, Super Bowl one or two. I think it was basically, in my mind, he's talking to the lineman for the ice bowl. Your mind gives up way before your body 100% and he basically said, God has given you a body that's indestructible. It's convincing your mind to do it, that I'm here for basically something along those lines, and I've mentioned this before in coaching, but even self reflection upon myself, like, what drives you and what drives you, everyone's, you know, why is sort of different, but intrinsic motivation will always beat external motivation, and that's why, you know, earlier In the podcast, we were talking about, you know, negativity, or fuel that I think of that as, like, the whip, like, go faster, go faster. But ultimately it's you want. You already want to run. You're just adding this extra fuel source. You're already going fast. Now you're like, Now throw a few dynamite sticks in there. Let's really blow this thing up, right? Appreciate your time. Thanks for having me out of bro. Fourth one of the day we didn't get to talk about echo pond, which is amazing. Next time, next time. Thanks for tuning in. We've had the podcast now for two and a half, almost three years now, and we have a consulting page, one to one. Consulting you can book my time for one hour. Perhaps you've heard a guest where you like one of the topics. Maybe you want an introduction to some of the guests that I've had on perhaps you want to talk about branding or marketing or anything that we've covered on the podcast over the last two and a half years. You can book a time at curious builder podcast.com thanks for tuning in. Curious builder podcast. If you like this episode, do us a favor. Share it with three other business owners. The best way that we can spread what we're doing is by word of mouth, and with your help, we can continue to help other curious builders expand their business. Please share it with your friends. Like and review online, and thanks again for tuning in.
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