Episode 65 - Architectural Strategies and Business Insights with Jackson Strom

Episode #65 | Jackson Strom | Architectural Strategies and Business Insights

In this episode of The Curious Builder, host Mark Williams and guest Jackson Strom from Strom Architecture dive into the nitty-gritty of running an architecture firm. They chat about the benefits of fixed-fee billing, the importance of hand-drafting in the design process, and managing client expectations. The duo also shares insights on recruiting talent, leveraging AI, and the value of effective communication in creating stunning architectural projects.

Listen to the full episode:

About Jackson Strom

Jackson's love for crafting beautiful homes began in rural South Dakota. Drawing pictures with his mom and helping his dad build houses during summers sparked his passion for creating living spaces.

After graduating high school, Jackson earned his Master’s Degree at North Dakota State University. With over a decade of experience in the profession, he founded Strom Architecture in 2019.

At Strom Architecture, clients' stories are central to the design process. By listening closely, Jackson and his team transform clients' thoughts and dreams into reality, specializing in homes, cabins, and condos across the Midwest.

When not working, Jackson enjoys spending time with his wife, Lindsey, and their two boys, Sully and Oliver. Follow his journey on social media at @stromarch or visit stromarch.com.

Resources

• Visit Strom Architecture’s Website

• Transcript

  Mark Williams

  This episode is brought to you by adaptive, the software for builders that automates draws budgets and bookkeeping with AI. For over a year now, I've been partnered with adaptive, and they've just been an amazing game changer in terms of efficiency in our time and all our bookkeeping. When from the time we get an invoice, we import it into their system, the AI codes it, cost, codes it, job codes it, all we have to do is review it, pass it through the people internally in the office, all digitally, and then it gets approved and paid all by Ach. It's becoming extremely fast and saving us countless hours a day and a week. When it comes to draws, all of our budgets now are set in adaptive as well. So now when we cost code against the draws, we can do our change orders. And then with a click of a button, we can submit these draws to our title companies or to our homeowners for faster payment. If you're looking to save time, and if you're looking to be accurate, I highly recommend adaptive.

  Mark Williams [00:00:52]:

  Additionally, if you'd like to listen to one of their founders share the story of adaptive, you can listen to episode number 15 on the Curious Builder podcast. If you're here local in Minnesota and want to network with other builders, we have the curious builder collective. You can head to our website to find out what that is all about. We have three more three hour sessions coming up this year. We're basically a small group that has a room for ten more builders. We currently have 20. We're going to cap it at 30. This is a way to test your theories, learn from each other, and elevate your brand and your business.

  Mark Williams [00:01:19]:

  Head to the Curious Builder podcast.com to find out more about the curious builder collective. Today on the podcast, we had Jackson Strom from Strom Architecture. We had a great interview. It was really nice to just chat with him. He's out of North Dakota and sister city here to Minneapolis West Fargo area, and I really talked to him a lot about the operational side of running an architecture firm. We've had architects on before, but I haven't really gone down that line of talking before. And it was just a great open conversation, a lot about communication, really, just talking about how you assemble your team and making sure that everyone is communicating clearly with each other and with the clients. So without further ado, here's Jackson Strom with Strom architecture.

  Mark Williams [00:02:04]:

  Welcome to the Curious Builder podcast. I'm Mark Williams, your host. Today I'm joined with Jackson Strom from Strom architecture. Welcome, Jackson.

  Jackson Strom [00:02:11]:

  Thank you thanks, Mark. Thanks for having me.

  Mark Williams [00:02:13]:

  You're based in North Dakota, right? Up in Fargo?

  Jackson Strom [00:02:15]:

  Yeah, we're in West Fargo, so not much difference between Fargo and West Fargo, but, yeah, our office is actually in West Fargo, so.

  Mark Williams [00:02:21]:

  West Fargo sounds super Fancy. Uh, for those that aren't from the upper midwest that don't know Fargo, West Fargo is like the Martha's vineyard of Fargo. Well, you had reached out to me, actually, quite a while ago, maybe six months to a year ago, mainly to see, to put you yourself on my radar as a custom home builder. I knew you were starting to do some stuff down here on Lake Minnetonka, and so we kind of played fodtag back and forth. You know, we've had a few Zoom calls, and I just thought it'd be. I always like having people on the podcast to dive into their businesses. So why don't you tell us a little bit about your journey into architecture and your firm, strong architecture, and we'll just kind of go from there.

  Jackson Strom [00:03:00]:

  Yeah, no, that sounds good. That's kind of a loaded question, but, I mean, if we want to go back a ways. Yeah, I mean, I went to NDSU, came up here from South Dakota, been in Fargo ever since. Started working at a firm, probably third year in architecture school. And I worked there for six years, kind of focusing on, you know, doing a little bit, everything. But that firm did focus on custom residential work. So I had opportunity to work on some really high end homes with. With that principal, and then from there, joined another local firm, was with them for another six years, and then probably a little almost five years ago, jumped off and we started our own firm.

  Jackson Strom [00:03:43]:

  And now strum architecture, we're focusing on, I'd say 85% custom residential, 15% kind of more boutique commercial. I think there's a group of seven of us now. And, yeah, primarily focusing in, you know, any. About 300 miles, any direction of Fargo. So we have a few projects down in Sioux Falls, Bismarck, Grand Forks, Minneapolis. You know, we've had a. We've had a project on Iowa, one down over in Montana. So that's kind of it in a nutshell.

  Jackson Strom [00:04:13]:

  And I'm sure you have plenty of questions you can ask regarding that.

  Mark Williams [00:04:16]:

  Well, yeah, I sure do. Out of curiosity, what part of Montana is the home that you designed?

  Jackson Strom [00:04:21]:

  It is. Gosh, it's for. It's a few years back now. For a friend of ours, it was. What is the lake out there?

  Mark Williams [00:04:30]:

  Flathead.

  Jackson Strom [00:04:31]:

  Yeah, it's not on Flathead, but it's up the hill from Flathead. So there's a view to Flathead from it.

  Mark Williams [00:04:36]:

  Sure. We. I always ask because we had a cabin up that way for 25 years, and so I know northwest Montana pretty good. In fact, the reason I know it's 4 hours exactly to Fargo is because we would always stop at a friend's house on the way there because it was usually 18 hours if you were breaking the speed limit the entire way to our cabin in Montana. But we would always fuel up and grab a bite to eat in Fargo, so.

  Jackson Strom [00:04:58]:

  Yeah. Well, that sounds like a good place to have a cabin at.

  Mark Williams [00:05:01]:

  Yeah, it was good. Other than it was 1200 miles away, it was great. Well, back. Back to you. You know, I was doing a little research on you. You know, you. You know, in your youth, you know, you said your. I think your dad built homes and you were pouring concrete at an early age.

  Mark Williams [00:05:16]:

  What was it about architecture that drew you in. In school and not, you know, being a general contractor, being a builder? Because it seems like kind of you were primed to maybe be in building, you know, on the physical side of things.

  Jackson Strom [00:05:30]:

  Yeah. I mean, so growing up, Mark, we grew up on a farm in South Dakota. So kind of in the middle of summer when, you know, there's not much to do on the farm. My dad had built some homes in the past, so we did end up building a spec home, a few spec homes kind of as a summer, you know, job while we're not in the field, so. But it was kind of just something that, at the time, just something that we were doing, you know, I didn't think much of it. Just like, oh, that's. That's what we're doing for work today, you know. And then as I got older, in high school, I worked for a concrete, or a guy who poured concrete in town there for, I think, two or three summers.

  Jackson Strom [00:06:08]:

  But again, at that time, it was kind of a thing where, you know, I was like, oh, working hard. This is great, you know, and making money and just getting good experience. But, you know, even during that time, I think back to it sometimes now, and I'm like, you know, I probably should have been paying more attention sometimes. Or there's certain details I look at now, and I'm like, oh, yeah, I remember doing that. And. But at the time, I didn't know I was gonna be an architect someday, to be honest. It was senior year in high school, and my guidance counselor said, she's like, well, you know, you always been interested in drawing and art and. Which I always had been growing up, you know, always drawing here and there, but never homes, just drawing, you know, I don't know, Michael Jordan or basketball shoes or anything of that nature.

  Jackson Strom [00:06:49]:

  And so she's like, you know, have you ever thought about architecture? And I was like, I suppose I could do that. And so it's kind of like, well, where's the nearest architecture school is either U of M or NDSU, and NDSU is a little bit closer. So that's where I ended up, and I just really fell in love with it from there.

  Mark Williams [00:07:06]:

  So, interesting. What did you know when you were. How did you know it was the right time to start your own firm?

  Jackson Strom [00:07:14]:

  I think growing up, you know, that's a good question. I think growing up on the farm, you know, just watching my dad kind of, you know, essentially run his own business, I just always had it in the back of my head that I wanted to be doing my own thing at some point. And then so upon, really, I think the catalyst was we were having our first child, and I was studying for my tests, and I said to myself, I need to get these tests done, you know, before our first son comes. And then within, I think, you know, months of passing all the exams and getting licensed, I had jumped off and started our own thing. But I think it was just. It was something always in the back of my head, but, yeah, it was just kind of like, I better get this started before that.

  Mark Williams [00:07:59]:

  Makes total sense.

  Jackson Strom [00:08:00]:

  Have.

  Mark Williams [00:08:00]:

  Have a baby and start a business. I mean, that. Yeah, I mean, yeah, total sense.

  Jackson Strom [00:08:05]:

  Then there's a pandemic and then, you know, all these different things that kind of dominoes after that.

  Mark Williams [00:08:09]:

  But did you have a client already? I mean, it seems like, you know, at least like, you know, in building, if you're going to start, you know, you might start with a remodel and, you know, you know, a friend or, you know, a family member or you have a skill and you sort of develop it that way or in the way that the path that I chose is, you know, I borrowed money and I built a spec home and sold it. And after you do that a few times, you, you know, then you have a reputation, and you can kind of play it that way. How does one start their own firm? Do you have a few jobs sort of already in the wings? Do you already have some clientele or you just hang a shingle on the outside of your. Your office, as you will, and say, hey, we're open for business, and, you know, try to drum some up?

  Jackson Strom [00:08:49]:

  I think a little bit of all the above, you know, so that's something I didn't touch on, but so when I was still at my first firm, you know, right out of. Right out of college, actually, during college, I was doing a few little projects here and there. So, you know, oh, I do an addition for my parents home. I did an addition for my aunt's house. I did a new house for a family in our hometown. So then all throughout, well, two things. There was one kind of a modern lake cabin that I ended up having the opportunity to work on with my dad's farming partner, and that gained a lot of attention back in South Dakota. So it was kind of like, hey, that's the modern cabin on this lake.

  Jackson Strom [00:09:33]:

  And so even once I got to my second firm, there was people that came to us because they knew of that modern cabin. So I always, I guess, in hindsight, had that entrepreneurial bug of like, hey, I want to spend extra time after work doing my own thing, and I want to, you know, always be trying to rustle up business, whether it's for the firm I was at or if there was a possibility of us doing a side project. And I would probably give a lot of credit, you know, for better or worse, to my first boss for allowing me to do some side projects, and I probably just got my feet wet there. And then, upon wanting to start my own thing, kind of kicking a lot of tires in the sense of, like, you know, whether it's talking to different builders that I had good relationship with or different clients, just saying, hey, thinking about maybe doing this. What's your guys's take on this? Is there an appetite for another residential architect in our area? And just getting that conversation going a little bit, and it's. It was just really not. Maybe not surprising, but it was, yeah, let's just say surprising how many people wanted to help you, you know, like, oh, well, we would. We would have projects for you.

  Jackson Strom [00:10:42]:

  We'd have a. We got a new client coming down the. Down the pipeline that you could probably work on them with. And because, of course, keep in mind a lot of these builders, I was working with them continuously, you know, on a regular basis at the firm I was at, kind of running, you know, doing the design and the documents and all those things. So they were already familiar with me.

  Mark Williams [00:11:01]:

  So did that create friction when you left with your previous employer?

  Jackson Strom [00:11:06]:

  Um, probably a little bit, yeah. I mean, anytime there's a new. You know, you're. You're kind of. You're kind of playing the same game, so. Yeah.

  Mark Williams [00:11:14]:

  So your competition, I mean, do you guys compete against each other now. Are they still there?

  Jackson Strom [00:11:18]:

  Yep. Yep. Their competition now. Yeah, it was, you know, I had a great experience there, but it was, it was literally a thing where I had it in my head, like, this is a move I'm going to make, and regardless what is said or offered to me, I just got it. I just got to do this.

  Mark Williams [00:11:33]:

  So do non competes make their way around in the architecture world? I mean, when you hire somebody, is that a thing or is that. I know, like, in corporate America, sometimes you'll have, you know, a non compete. I know, in building. We really don't. I mean, it's not like, or at least not that I'm aware of where you would have, let's say, a non compete with one of your project managers to go, because you hear about that sometimes where a project manager will break off and, you know, start their own building company and the subs and, you know, they'd obviously be able to say, well, hey, I, you know, I worked on Mark Williams custom homes or whichever builder, and so they would get some cache of saying, well, yeah, I was the project manager that sort of built that, but there doesn't seem to be any sort of non compete with that. Is that similar to the architecture world?

  Jackson Strom [00:12:15]:

  Yeah, I mean, I've heard of, I've heard of non competes in the architectural world, but it wasn't, it wasn't instance for myself. No.

  Mark Williams [00:12:25]:

  Interesting. Did, have you ever, you know, one of the questions that I was going to ask you, and I think it's appropriate to ask you now, why is it that you see, you had a background of seeing your dad building and, and being, you know, fairly handy by the sounds of it. Why do we see so few architects that are also builders? We do see building firms, and it's very rare that, and I. That someone obviously can do everything. That's a pretty unique person. But it seems more common that you might have a building firm of like seven to ten people, a couple project managers, and maybe bring, you know, interior design would be usually the first step, but I know several of my peers that are bringing, that have architectural design in house. Maybe they're not a full, full blown architect. Maybe they're home designer or draftsman, but they sort of use that as a competitive advantage.

  Mark Williams [00:13:17]:

  Why. And we can talk about that later. But why is it that it doesn't seem that there's very many architects that have like a GC or like a builder under their umbrella? Any thoughts on that?

  Jackson Strom [00:13:31]:

  My thoughts on that, Mark, are that it, I mean, it's hard enough, in my opinion. In my experience, it's hard enough running an architecture firm and kind of saying, hey, we're really good at what we do here, let alone putting another hat on and saying, oh, yeah, we're, we're really good at that, too, you know?

  Mark Williams [00:13:50]:

  Yeah, I mean, I, I agree with you. I'm just wondering why builders are dumb enough to do it.

  Jackson Strom [00:13:55]:

  Well, I think, I think, I don't want to say too much of that, but I do think sometimes there's, I mean, there's nothing wrong with that, but I think there's sometimes what I experience is builders say, well, we'll save you some money. You don't need to go to that architect. We can handle that in house. And that's something that we, you know, contend with quite often. You know, you get, you get questions from clients saying, well, hey, they said they could do that in house for, you know, a fraction of what, you know, you're kind of proposing your fee to be. Why is that more economical? And it's, I think it's just a different experience.

  Mark Williams [00:14:32]:

  You know, I would agree with you. I mean, the ones that I'm thinking of, I don't think any of them are full architects. I think usually they would be draftsmen. And there's nothing wrong with that. You know, for those that, I mean, maybe you could give a quick, I've had, we had David Charles on, I think, episode like six, and he was a home designer. He talked a little bit about it, but it's been, you know, 55 episodes since then, so we're probably good for what you want to. Just give the audience a quick. In your own words, what is the difference of architecture? You've got architects, home designers, and draftsman.

  Mark Williams [00:15:01]:

  How would you describe them if you were describing it to somebody who didn't know the difference?

  Jackson Strom [00:15:07]:

  I've been asked that question before, Mark, and I probably don't have the best answer, but I think a lot of it is, well, you know, just nuts and bolts of it. Architects, you know, the training, the experience, the, the testing you have to go through, you know, you know, continuing education, you know, keep in mind there's a lot of clients that don't, don't see the, you know, they don't, that doesn't matter to them as much. So I think that's something, and I'm kind of going around your question a little bit, but I will say that's something that we contend with is a lot of times clients are looking at the end, you know, the service cost and that's the main thing they're concerned about sometimes. So when we see clients that ended up going with whether it's like the lumberyard home designer or, you know, just a unlicensed architect or which I guess would not be considered an architect, that's the biggest thing for them as well. Their rate was half of yours.

  Mark Williams [00:16:06]:

  So, yeah, I mean, the way I've had it explained to me before is, I mean, it's a little bit like a, you know, a doctor, you've got, you know, a, you know, a nurse and then maybe like, a medical aid in terms of, like, a lot of it is schooling, right? I mean, so if you're going to be an architect, you have your license. You know, maybe kind of that mid tier home designer is either on their path to becoming an architect, or maybe somewhere along the schooling, they decided that, you know, especially in the residential world, it seems like. And correct me if I'm wrong, but a lot of the architects I've spoken to, a lot of the architecture programs really center around commercial architecture. Yeah. Is that accurate?

  Jackson Strom [00:16:46]:

  Correct. Yep. Absolutely.

  Mark Williams [00:16:48]:

  And yet it's interesting because it seems like architects. Well, like the awards. I mean, a lot of the awards are centered around commercial architecture, and I think it's only recently changing. And correct me if I'm wrong, because this is your field, more so than mine, but I think people are now in the architecture world really starting to celebrate all that is being done in home design architects, because it almost seems like there's. I haven't had a commercial architect on, but I'd be kind of curious to see, like, if they have sort of an attitude against, like, oh, you're a residential architect. Well, I'm a commercial architect. I mean, does that exist? I have no idea.

  Jackson Strom [00:17:23]:

  But, I mean, there's a lot of ego in our profession. Yeah, I think that exists.

  Mark Williams [00:17:28]:

  Okay.

  Jackson Strom [00:17:28]:

  I mean, I will say that even students coming out of school, you hear that quite often of, like, oh, they're not interested in residential architecture or, oh, they, they are interested in residential architecture. So they're. They're interested in pursuing your firm or, you know, that's usually that thing of, like, some students just residential architecture is almost like, that's not their, you know, cup of tea, so it's not their jam.

  Mark Williams [00:17:53]:

  I noticed. I mean, speaking of NDSU, and I looked at your staff. I mean, you've got a pretty big staff, and they look extremely young, which I'm excited about. You know, we hear all the time, you know, that, hey, the trades and those in building and construction are so old and long in the tooth and silver haired that, you know, we're gonna have no future. And yet I look around, and I think the future is really bright. I think there's a lot of opportunity, and there. People aren't wrong in saying that a lot of people are leaving, but it just means that there's a lot of opportunity for those that are here and those that want to start a business or own a business or buy a business. I think if I could do it over again, I think I would maybe buy a business or buy, you know, a builder that already has it all figured out versus, you know, trying to create something from scratch.

  Mark Williams [00:18:34]:

  But, uh, why don't you tell me a little bit about your experience? I mean, you seem like you heavily recruit out of the school that, um, you know, you graduated from. I assume that's by design. Is it because they're local, you can kind of get them into an internship path, and then if it sort of seems like it would work out, then you hire them. But why don't you tell me a little bit about how you find your talent and how you retain them?

  Jackson Strom [00:18:56]:

  Yeah. Yeah. I definitely like to say there was some big game plan behind that, but, you know, it grew quite organically. You know, I think we started out with one intern from NDSU, and then, you know, it was kind of a deal where, well, she said that her other friend was looking for a position. So then you had two interns. Well, then one graduates. Well, do you want to, you know, start full time and then, you know, just kind of this trickle down effect? And. And then, actually, we also have.

  Jackson Strom [00:19:23]:

  So, in addition to the NDSU crew, we have a team member that works out of south. South of Minneapolis as well, remotely. So. But, yeah, I. We don't necessarily have any big recruitment plan, but it's kind of, you know, we've been fortunate to have some of the, I'd say, better students at NDSU, and so they're very aware of, you know, other students that excel at what they're doing, and usually they kind of bring them in the door, and so just kind of grown organically that way.

  Mark Williams [00:19:54]:

  How big would a graduating class of, let's say, NDSU architecture class be per year?

  Jackson Strom [00:20:00]:

  Geez, Mark, I should know that question. I should know that answer. I think it's probably. Is it 60, 80, something like that?

  Mark Williams [00:20:10]:

  Okay. I mean, that's. That's actually a pretty high number, I think. I mean, that's quite a deal.

  Jackson Strom [00:20:14]:

  Yeah. And, I mean, I don't know. Maybe it's 40, 60, but it's somewhere around here.

  Mark Williams [00:20:19]:

  Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, it's. It's. I was just curious how many are coming into the market. It'd be really. You probably don't know the answer to this, but it'd be really interesting to know how many stay. You know, and, you know, I know, for instance, I don't know, is it hard to get into architecture school? I'm just relating it to the medical field. You know, like the whole.

  Mark Williams [00:20:35]:

  I don't know if you know much about, like, matching, uh, in terms of, like, you know, the medical schools, and they very much limit supply and demand a bit, and so, uh, they create, you know, a higher salary base for, uh, by kind of hoarding the brains, if you will, by making it hard to get into medical school. Um, and is that a similar style that happens in architecture or. Not really.

  Jackson Strom [00:20:58]:

  It's definitely not quite to the medical school, but it's, uh. Yeah, it's not. You know, everybody doesn't get past that first year. You know, you kind of got to be. I can't remember what percentage of your class, but you got to have a certain GPA to kind of get into that second year and really start that program. So, NDSU, it's a five year program where, like, u of m, it's a six year program.

  Mark Williams [00:21:17]:

  Okay.

  Jackson Strom [00:21:20]:

  That was also one of the reasons why, I guess, NDSU seemed more appealing to me, because it was easy.

  Mark Williams [00:21:25]:

  You get to work faster.

  Jackson Strom [00:21:26]:

  Yeah. Right. You get your masters in both. But one. One it's five years, others it's six years.

  Mark Williams [00:21:33]:

  What is it? You know, just like you had reached out to me, you know, and whether it's the profile of the homes or you're just more interested in, you know, obviously, Minneapolis is a bigger city than Fargo or West Fargo, I should say. And, you know, are you finding you're having success in reaching out to builders here in the metro area or walk us through kind of what's working and what's not working? And over the last couple of years, as you try to expand your brand and your architecture services to, let's call it, you know, west and northwest Minnesota, you know, which is southeast of Fargo.

  Jackson Strom [00:22:07]:

  Yeah, I'd say. I think I would argue it has been successful. I mean, it kind of started with a lot of just cold emailing, you know, I don't exactly remember what. What the email was to yourself, but a lot of times, it's, you know, kind of creating a packet of our work, documenting our process a little bit and saying, hey, would love to, would love to chat a little bit if, you know, opportunity to rise is, oh.

  Mark Williams [00:22:32]:

  I thought, I thought I was special. I didn't realize you were going alphabetical. And you finally got to w, which is Williams, and you just hit send.

  Jackson Strom [00:22:40]:

  Throw that out there, Mark.

  Mark Williams [00:22:43]:

  Hey, there's no shame in that game. I like, I like a good sales.

  Jackson Strom [00:22:46]:

  Strategy, but here's the thing. I mean, I'd like to say that, I mean, you know, just watching from a distance, I mean, you see, you see what groups are kind of like doing really nice homes and Minneapolis, and yours is one of them. So it's kind of, it was, it was surprising how many, you know, those cold emails, how many different, different people over the years have kind of said, yeah, let's hop on a phone call or let's get coffee or so, you know, I think some of my colleagues, when I first told them that, you know, we were doing that, sometimes they're like, well, why would, why would anybody, you know, pick up the phone for that? And it's been surprising how many people do.

  Mark Williams [00:23:27]:

  I mean, I think it's time and chance. You just don't know where a builder is at. Maybe there's hetero. It's honestly no different than plumbing, mechanical trimming, painting. It's everything, you know, and I, you know, we get called on a lot, specifically seems by, by painters for whatever reason. Either that or they think I really need a lot of painting health, which could be, but, you know, I guess that the point I'm making is that, you know, I'm fine with getting reached out to, and I used, I heard the best sales line I've ever heard where it was from somebody else. And I said, well, we have, you know, let's say my cabinet guy, been with him for 1215 years now, and, and the cabinet shop said, I'm not trying to replace your loyalty because I hope to make you that loyal to me. I want to be your number one plan b, or I want to be, you know, one a or, sorry, one b.

  Mark Williams [00:24:16]:

  And so, like, you know, if there's a change. And so it's kind of this long term relationship game. And I think a lot of builders, you know, once we get comfortable and once we have something that represents our brand really well, you know, we're not going to want to rock the boat. And I think architecture, which makes it sort of unique is, you know, certain architects do get known for different styles. And so I think, you know, sometimes a big part of our job as a builder is sort of playing matchmaker with the personalities that are involved. And you have the homeowner, obviously, you have their style and their personality. You potentially have an interior designer and an architecture problem or architecture problem. Architecture partner, not problem.

  Mark Williams [00:24:59]:

  And so really, I feel like a big part of my job is just understanding. I feel like a general manager of a team. I'm really responsible for assembling the team to be successful. And, you know, not even if an architect is phenomenal work, they might not be the right fit for the client. And so I think for myself personally, you know, there's probably five to eight architects I stay pretty in contact with on a regular basis. And, you know, I would say three of them I've never even worked with before. And it's just more like, when the right client comes along, I have developed a relationship where I'm like, I think they'd be someone that we should interview. And it's a long term play.

  Mark Williams [00:25:41]:

  And so I. Anyway, I guess where I'm going with this is I can see why builders would respond to you, because I suspect I'm not alone in that category, that, you know, it's not like you just have one architecture, one design partner, and that's the only person you ever use.

  Jackson Strom [00:25:53]:

  Right? And I mean, like you said, you said a mouthful in the sense that once that, I think for us, we kind of look at it like, yeah, we're not. We're not option a. But once that opportunity arises, we'd love to throw our hat in the ring if there's kind of discussion of like, hey, what are the other options? And I think back, Mark, even when I first. When I got my first job out of college or in college, I've just always been maybe. Maybe just a little forward in the sense, like, I remember I emailed a handful of firms in Fargo here, and I still remember this day. My classmate and. And roommate at the time, he was like, who's gonna. Who's gonna hire you? These guys aren't even.

  Jackson Strom [00:26:40]:

  There's not even job openings right now. Like, what are you doing reaching out to these different firms? Like, why would they hire a second year student? And I think within two weeks, I had a job. And I guess I think, too, I think of it sometimes. Like, sometimes you just don't. You don't get what you don't ask for 100%.

  Mark Williams [00:26:56]:

  I mean, you've already demonstrated a number of times already why you're a business owner. You know, I think a lot of times, what makes people successful as a business owner is, you know, if we spend, you know, paralysis analysis, if you think about every single thing you do before you do it. And trust me, I'm, my wife tells me all the time. I'm sure I could be more thoughtful, but I do think that a lot of people, a lot of business owners, you just get stuff done by doing it and by trying, and to your point, asking for the sale. So I think you're 100% right.

  Jackson Strom [00:27:23]:

  Yeah. What are.

  Mark Williams [00:27:25]:

  How often, you know, just like you said, you're reaching out to builders and groups of people that you want to work with. I suspect that there are builders and remodelers in the Fargo, South Dakota, eastern Montana, you know, area that, you know, see your work and want to do the same, how do you handle it, you know, when builders reach out or to you and say, hey, we'd love to, you know, be referred, you know, if, you know, if you get the work, you know, directly, Jackson, you know, how do we get either on your bid list or how do we get considered, you know, to be a someone that you would recommend to your clients? How do you answer that?

  Jackson Strom [00:28:02]:

  Yeah, I mean, it's probably pretty similar how, you know, the other way around. It's like, you know, we have the conversation, you kind of develop that relationship. You're seeing what kind of work they're doing, and then it's just kind of wait and see until you get a project in that area, really. And then once, once. And if you do get that project, it's like, oh, well, you know, we know of three. Three builders. It would be probably a pretty good fit for this. And let's.

  Jackson Strom [00:28:26]:

  Let's get in contact with them and see what their schedule looks like and what their process looks like. And so, like you said, it's a more of a long term play. But, yeah, we're probably handling it just like builders are handling when we're reaching out to them.

  Mark Williams [00:28:39]:

  If you were to. If you were to do, if you had ten jobs going right now, how many of those jobs were a client came to you directly versus how, of that ten, how many were brought to you by a builder that was already had the client or a designer or some other way?

  Jackson Strom [00:28:59]:

  I'd say. I'd say a quarter to a half were brought to us, maybe even half from a builder. Yeah. And that's probably to piggyback on that mark even. I think you asked me earlier about. Yeah, you did ask me earlier about building, you know, architects building. And that's also another reason why it's just never been on our radar because we get so much referrals, some other. From other builders in the area, and the minute, you know, we decide we're going to be a builder that's very.

  Jackson Strom [00:29:30]:

  Anymore, all of a sudden we're competition.

  Mark Williams [00:29:32]:

  You know, that's a good point. That's a really good point. Yeah, you're right. I mean, for. I can answer the question that we talked about a few minutes ago personally, and maybe I'm wrong. I think actually, if I was looking at this objectively, I am wrong. But, like, I've chosen, I would say 40% of the builders in my peer group or in my strata have designers in house, maybe not that high, 30%. And I understand why they do it.

  Mark Williams [00:29:57]:

  Communication is great. You're in office, they're always there. I think, you know, obviously, like employees, you know, a company can make money on their people. So if you're paying someone, you know, $70 an hour, $80, whatever it is, you're obviously going to charge the client, you know, a multiple on that, so you can make money on your employees. No different than if you had trimmers in house or whatnot. I've chosen not to do that because I always. I. Maybe it's the variety.

  Mark Williams [00:30:22]:

  I like working with different people and just like the architecture side of it, I think that there are different interior designers that have different temperaments and different styles, and I didn't want to be locked into one. So that, you know, if I had a client who wanted to do something that was perceived very contemporary or very modern, and let's say head interior designer, and all she did is cottage style or traditional homes, you know, would that be way that I might lose a job? Now? Never mind that. We know that that designer in this example is probably skilled to do both. I think the same is true of builders. Sometimes a builder gets known for building only one kind of home, and until someone tries them, it doesn't mean that they can't. It's just that that's not what they're known for. In fact, a few years ago, you know, we just. Because it seems like in Minnesota, and Minnesota's Minnesota, I can't even say my own adjective here, but, you know, Minnesotans tend to be pretty conservative.

  Mark Williams [00:31:10]:

  And so the predominant architecture style is some variant of traditional. But I personally really wanted to do a more modern home, and we had a client that did an extremely contemporary home. The whole thing was a big giant metal box. It was awesome. I mean, don't get me wrong, it was super hard and I learned a ton, but the whole point of it was like, now that cannot be a barrier for any future client because it's on our website, it's very prominent in our marketing. I want people to know that we can do complex things, and just because we had never done it before doesn't mean we couldn't. And sometimes you just need someone to believe in you to do it. And I think that's true of architecture.

  Mark Williams [00:31:46]:

  I think that's true. Interior designer, frankly, I think it's true in almost any aspect that most people are pretty competent. And if they have the figure it out factor, you can kind of do whatever. But it is nice to have a range of, of homes within your, and some people, like, I've interviewed other architects, you know, and their style is predominantly modern. And they basically say, you know, we don't really want to do traditional. Uh, and so we'll just refer to another architect or we'll just politely pass. And so you're, you know, kind of that concept of your vibe attracts your tribe. I mean, if you continually market the things that you want, those are the things that you're going to get or if you shorter.

  Mark Williams [00:32:21]:

  So, you know, a breadth of range, you know, you kind of let people know that, hey, I'm kind of open to everything.

  Jackson Strom [00:32:27]:

  Yeah, absolutely. I mean, in two things of that. Mark, I was going to say, you know, one thing that you said that that jogged my memory was, you know, people, once you, once you've done something once, people can kind of, you know, piggyback off that and trust that you're able to do something like that. And I think back to when we first started, I think a few of those side projects we did, especially that, that modern one on this lake in South Dakota that really, you know, helped propel that. And then, so there's, there's one thing and then other thing you mentioned as far as, like, doing the modern or the traditional, sometimes you kind of get pigeonholed into one or the other. I always find it surprising. I don't know if this maybe sounds like it's opposite for you guys, but I've found that most time when clients see us or even a builder that we're potentially going to work with, do a modern project, it's like that modern project sticks in their head. They kind of glaze over the traditional stuff you've been doing, and they're like, well, you guys kind of do the modern stuff, right? It's like, well, all these other homes, we're doing our traditional, but they remembered the modern one and they, I noticed they, they've even said that about different builders we work with.

  Jackson Strom [00:33:31]:

  They're like, well, don't they kind of just do the modern ones? And I'm like, you know, if you look at their website, there's all, all across the board. But I don't know if the modern ones are more memorable or this kind of, but I don't know if I experienced that at all.

  Mark Williams [00:33:42]:

  No, I definitely have. And I think I heard something that was really interesting. It changed how I think I'm going to market in the future. You know, usually. Well, two things about that. One, you know, I love branding. So whether it's branding on your website, you know, your, your hats, your shirt, I mean, your email, I mean, branding can go really deep. It also really informs your, your story.

  Mark Williams [00:34:02]:

  And, you know, someone had once mentioned, and I think it's very accurate, that we should be marketing and we should be branding the company we want to be, not the company we used to be. And, you know, if you're, and sometimes it happens organically, you know, we become a client, you know, look at, you know, you said you've been in business for seven years.

  Jackson Strom [00:34:20]:

  Five.

  Mark Williams [00:34:21]:

  Five years. You know, if you look back at the beginning, I have to imagine you've changed pretty radically, even in five years. Maybe not in like your skill set, which probably has improved as well, but for sure would be your competency or your confidence, you know, the projects you've taken on. And so like making sure that you're informing your, you know, and just like building and an architects, you know, whatever you're designing now is probably not going to get photographed or videoed for two years from now.

  Jackson Strom [00:34:45]:

  Yeah.

  Mark Williams [00:34:45]:

  And so you're constantly in this leg pattern that, you know, you as a person might evolve past what the public knows you to be. And so I think making sure, I think that's where like Instagram can really help because you're giving people more of a pulse of what's happening in the day and now where your website and portfolio seems to be more of like your accomplished works. But if I was to look on my website, you know, the two most prominent homes I have up there I built two years ago.

  Jackson Strom [00:35:09]:

  Yeah.

  Mark Williams [00:35:10]:

  And so it's mainly just being aware of it. I don't really have a value statement on that just to be, I guess, as people listening, you know, make sure you're aware of the brand and the messaging that you are sending out to, you know, the public and if you want it to change, you know, obviously you need to make sure you're aware of what change you want them to be aware of, whether it's a bigger home, smaller home, niche home, whatever it might be. This episode is brought to you by Helmuth and Johnson, a top Minnesota law firm ranging from individuals to emerging startups to multinational Fortune 500 companies focusing on transactional law, litigation and appeals. Helmuth and Johnson attorneys are leaders in their field. David Helmuth and Chad Johnson joined forces 30 years ago in 1994, with the goal of creating a premier law firm capable of handling complex and challenging cases efficiently and effectively. Today, Helmuth and Johnson rank among the top 15 largest law firms in Minnesota, with more than 70 twin city lawyers serving clients in more than 30 legal practice areas. They offer a full suite of legal services to clients without sacrificing their original commitment to providing responsive and affordable legal representation. To learn more, go to their website, www.hjlawfirm.com.

  Mark Williams [00:36:18]:

  this episode is brought to you by Pella Northland for 19 and a half years, I've been building homes, and 95% of all my homes have used Pella windows. I couldn't be happier to call them a partner in our builds and our remodels. Whether you're an architect, a designer, or a remodeler, I'd highly recommend Pella windows. They can fit old homes, new homes, reclaimed, commercial, and really everything in between. Pella is a company that we trust and that we recommend to our clients. Additionally, in management, Peter and Ed have just been absolutely fantastic people to work with as well as mentors to me personally. So when it comes time to look for a window, I'd highly recommend Pella windows. Find more@pelanorthland.com also, if you're interested, you can hear episode one where I interview Peter and Ed together for a great lesson on business and Pella windows.

  Jackson Strom [00:37:05]:

  Yeah, yeah. And we, that's something we've tried to kind of. We're, I mean, it's a, it's a continual process, but we're, you know, every day trying to hone in a little bit on what that really means because I think even, like, social media for quite a while there, you know, we'd be posting something every day and then, you know, I take a step back and, you know, it's like you said as far as, like, marketing what you want to, where you want to be at per se, you know, and I don't know if sometimes when we were posting every day, it's like, you know, we were just kind of filling in some gaps. Sometimes. Sometimes it's like, I don't know if that really needed to be posted. So we're continually trying to kind of hone in on what that wants to look like. But I 100% agree.

  Mark Williams [00:37:45]:

  Yeah. And I, yeah. You know, and I think there's value in niching, too. I mean, they're thinking of like, Charles Stinson, who's a, you know, very well known, you know, architect. His office is near mine and like, you know, his prairie style modern homes are just, I mean, that's what he does. And he does it extremely well all over the country, all over the world. And, you know, I think I have too much adhd to niche on one specific thing. I think I like variety and so I like the challenge.

  Mark Williams [00:38:10]:

  Oh, one thing I was going to mention about what this architect brought up is, you know, when you put an ad in a magazine, I asked this architect what is it that he, when he looks at a, an ad, you know, does he make a judgment on that company? Like, you can sort of see the images sometimes that people choose to use as their brand. I mean, they obviously chose it. Yes, I get, you know, sometimes, like most people, you know, you're, you're running against a deadline. Oh, that image is fine, but remember, this is going to be seen by a lot of people into your earlier point. If somebody sees a house that's ugly or they perceive as a certain thing, like that's good, that's going to be how they remember you. So make sure whatever you publish, especially in print, for whatever reason, it. That it seems like that's more sticky. Like, make sure it represents what you want.

  Mark Williams [00:38:58]:

  And anyway, there was this really, really complicated home. I didn't particularly think it was attractive and the build and this architect just said, I really appreciate this photo because I understand how complex that is. And he said, I don't need to know a lot more about that builder other than to know that if they can pull off that style of home, if they can pull up that detail, then I know all the other things that had to happen to have it. So I would, I would reach out to them if I had the right project. It was basically you were demonstrating your skill through a picture. And I don't think like that. I mean, I look at, like, from a more branding marketing point, like, ooh, that's a beautiful photo. Like, how does it make me feel? I'm probably actually more, I probably view ads more like a client would where I'm like, oh, that's visually very appealing, or, oh, I like that type font, or I like the coloring or photo is drawing me in.

  Mark Williams [00:39:48]:

  I'm not making a judgment on which one is right or wrong. I just thought it was really interesting to hear his perspective as, you know, as a builder who wants to work with more architects and higher end architects, just because I'm interested in higher end projects. This high end architect was really appreciative of a photo that really demonstrated competency. Anyway, just, I guess my question now in this long soliloquy I just had is, when you look at photos, what do you look at? What do you look for?

  Jackson Strom [00:40:18]:

  I probably wired a little bit more like yourself, Mark. I mean, I'm looking at the whole composition. I mean, obviously you're looking at the details of the home or whatever the project may be and kind of, you know, taking in the proportions, the scale, the, the materials. But I'm also wired like you in the sense that, hey, what's this logo look like? How much white space is on here? What, you know, how is this composed? Like, you know, and then if you're, if you're seeing thing that this doesn't catches your eye, it doesn't look quite right. You're kind of like, what? Why does that look that way? Or what? What makes this better or worse than this ad? I really like over here? I think my first firm, I did a lot of marketing stuff, so I got big into, like, brochures and just layouts and all these things, kind of studying, you know, what, what made a certain ad look better than the next? And I haven't. I'm by no means a pro in that, but I've done some digging on that over the years. So I'd like to think I'm maybe a little bit more well versed than some.

  Mark Williams [00:41:13]:

  But, yeah, no, that's interesting. I. We're going to have them on the podcast at some point, so I'll have to ask them that question. I think just people are wired differently. That was something that, you know, that, that he was interested in. Let's talk a little bit about business just because, you know, most of the people listening are business owners or interested in business. And, you know, I. What are, you know, in some ways, all business is sort of the same.

  Mark Williams [00:41:37]:

  You know, I've often made the argument that probably 70% of all businesses, you know, you hire, fire market, you know, p and ls, accounting, blah, blah, blah, you know, that's all the same. But. So I guess I'd be kind of curious, you know, to know some of the differentiation. But, like, how does an architecture business, you know, operate? And I guess more specifically, I'm thinking of like, you know, when I build a home, let's say my home takes a year, and let's just, for this example, it's, let's just say it's $2 million and, you know, you get a couple hundred thousand dollars upfront, and then you're billing monthly against the project, some of your overhead, and of course, your project management and everything is, you know, so you're taking portions of your, your profit through the build. And I didn't always do that. I used to kind of do. I used to just kind of operate and then I would get all my money at the end. But as if we become more sophisticated and knowledgeable and the homes have gotten bigger, obviously we're taking a portion off the table every month, which is what you should do.

  Mark Williams [00:42:30]:

  But I would say we're basically kind of in time with the project. Rather than me stating what I think architecture is like, walk us through a little bit about the cash flow management of running an architecture business, because I have to believe it's pretty front loaded.

  Jackson Strom [00:42:43]:

  Yeah. Yeah. And I'd say that's probably how we do things. A little bit different than some of our competition, Mark, you know, I know a lot of firms do hourly billing. We've had really good luck. Our clients, at least our clients so far, have preferred really more of a fixed fee. So I think a lot of times when we're competing with another architect, that's usually something that least I've experienced that it kind of catches the client's ear of like, you know, they may be looking at a bigger number upfront from us, but I think our clients so far have preferred knowing what that number is going to be in the end. So I'd like to say that's something a little bit different of our firm.

  Jackson Strom [00:43:23]:

  You know, that's not, that's not foolproof either, though, because, you know, there's, there's revisions and updates and, you know, it's a bit of a, it can be better, a bit of a bell curve, you know, because, like, you know, if you are really good at what you do and can manage the project well, that can go really well for the, you know, the firm. But if things start to get off track, you know, that's when, you know, towards the end of the project, you're looking at the amount of hours you put into it and you're starting to say, you know, this was, this didn't end up as good as we thought it was in the beginning. But I've just found that a lot of clients like that upfront, the idea that it's a fixed fee versus the hourly. So I'd say that's probably something a little bit different of our firm. Now, there are some projects where we will do hourly, but kind of few and far between.

  Mark Williams [00:44:14]:

  How do you, out of curiosity, how do you arrive at a fixed number? I mean, I get why, you know, it's a little bit analogous to a fixed fee model for building a home versus a cost plus model. I mean, it's the same thing hourly versus, you know, fixed. But there's got to be some way that your, you're actually coming up with that, I assume experience, you know, I mean, do you do, like, square some people I've heard, you know, do square footage, which is kind of an interesting way to do it. But how do you even arrive at what you're going to charge somebody?

  Jackson Strom [00:44:43]:

  Yeah. So, so we start out with having the client fill out a online design survey and we get an idea what they're looking to invest in this project upfront as well. So between those two things, we're looking at past projects that we've done with a similar program in the amount of time that we've put into those projects. And then, of course, adding, you know, adding a percentage for, you know, just, you know, the unknowns per se. So again, you're looking at a larger number upfront, but our clients so far have really liked just to see that number and know that that number is not going to fluctuate as the project goes on. Because I guess when I say fixed fee, it's not even necessarily based on that end project number. It's, again, it's kind of, now, keep in mind, if the project doubles in budget, let's say, well, then we need to have another conversation. But if it just rises a smaller percentage, our number is not fluctuating.

  Jackson Strom [00:45:41]:

  And I will say, I don't know if we've ever maybe once had a conversation regarding revising our billing, but how.

  Mark Williams [00:45:50]:

  Do you handle in just cash flow management, for instance, how many jobs do you sort of have to have going at any one time to sort of keep the lights on and pay for everyone's salaries?

  Jackson Strom [00:46:01]:

  Yeah, it's a, you know, it's, we're always juggling, you know, so I say at any one time, 2020 projects maybe.

  Mark Williams [00:46:09]:

  Oh, wow, that's a lot of projects.

  Jackson Strom [00:46:11]:

  But now, keep in mind, mark, that some of those, we're trying to condense that number, but some of those are, well, a past client referred their friend. They want a front porch edition you know, we're doing one of those right now. So maybe there's other projects where the client is just sitting on the design for a while so we're able to pick up another project. So I will say we're trying.

  Mark Williams [00:46:36]:

  So basically 20 open projects at various states because they could be beginning and punch, you know, you know, construction administration. I mean it could be all, all segments here.

  Jackson Strom [00:46:46]:

  Exactly. I'd say projects that are pretty hot and heavy, maybe five at every given time. But yeah, there's probably 20 on that list that, that are, you know, being juggled. But they're all at different phases. You're right. Yeah.

  Mark Williams [00:47:00]:

  Well how do you, and I don't know how many, I assume you're the principal of your. Do you have any other principal architects in your firm?

  Jackson Strom [00:47:07]:

  No.

  Mark Williams [00:47:08]:

  How does. So walk me through that. I don't know the answer to this question of, you know. So you have a firm, I think, what, seven people? Is that how big your team is?

  Jackson Strom [00:47:17]:

  Yep.

  Mark Williams [00:47:18]:

  And so walk us through, you know, you meet with somebody, I assume you're meeting with the builder and the client from the point that they tell you, hey, we want a 5000 square foot house. Our budget is, you know, 2 million, 3 million, whatever they tell you the things that they want, they show you some pictures, visual inserting, all that. Let's skip all that, but let's go to the back end. So you are now at the drafting table with your team who does what. It seems like every architecture firm is a little bit different. They have junior associates. Some people are kind of doing blocking and tackling, some are doing just approvals and their team is drawing it and they sort of tweak it. I guess we might as well just talk about your firm's practice and you can comment on if that's normal or not normal compared to the rest of the architecture field.

  Jackson Strom [00:48:06]:

  Yeah, no, that's a good question. So our firm, old school in the sense that once we get that, you know, all those inspiration images, the design survey, the notes. Well, first of all, a lot of majority of time in the meetings I'm ending up sketching the house plan in front of the client. So by the end of that initial meeting we have a pretty good roadmap of where we're heading. So rather than myself or whoever going back to the drawing board and kind of crossing their fingers that the clients kind of thinking this or that, we're able to kind of get in real time feedback what they're thinking as we're drawing it in front of them. So from there. Our team, how our team does it is I actually end up draft, hand drafting the floor plan. So literally have a, you know, drafting table that I use a, you know, lead holder and everything drafted up to scale.

  Jackson Strom [00:49:00]:

  And that's kind of how we start the process. And then somebody else, you know, one of our other team members is doing a 3d modeling. Of course, when we're, when we're drafting it, we have an idea how these forms are coming together, but I'm the one doing the drafting, and then the team kind of takes it from there and then we, you know, we get it into cad and we finesse it from there. But that's kind of the first step is I ended up drafting it myself.

  Mark Williams [00:49:26]:

  Okay. And is that, would you say compared to other architect firms your size, that that seems to be a fairly similar path, or is everyone super unique and everyone has different talents, so maybe their members do different things?

  Jackson Strom [00:49:40]:

  I'd say it's, I see a lot of the aspects are probably very similar, but, I mean, I don't know if there's a ton of different firms that are, well, I shouldn't say that. I know of other firms that are doing hand drafting. It's funny, whenever I talk to a commercial architect or, yeah, I'd say commercial architect, it's like they're really surprised that we're doing anything by hand, but there's just something about that and kind of feeling that plan out and just by the hand that, I don't know, just feels right to me.

  Mark Williams [00:50:06]:

  Well, and also, given your background, you said, you know, you were an artist before you became sort of interested in home architects. Right. And so it's like, there's got to be something satisfying about drawing. I have terrible penmanship and I'm an awful artist, but I'm a very good critic. Very good critic. And so anyway, I do have appreciation for, you know, I've worked with several architects that can draw right in front of you, and it's a very special talent. You know, there's not that many that can do that. So I would say that not only do you get the wow effect, but I imagine that you, it's also extremely helpful besides just amazing sales tool that you could leverage.

  Mark Williams [00:50:39]:

  But you're, you're getting instantaneous feedback loop with your client. Like, if you see them just like, lean, like, whoa. Like they're, you know, their facial expressions, you can kind of look up and I assume you're, you're, you're watching their reactions when you're drawing.

  Jackson Strom [00:50:52]:

  Yep. And then with that there's sometimes where they're like, oh, we definitely want to want that. It's like, oh, well, I'm glad we're sketching this in front of you right now, because we maybe would have done that otherwise.

  Mark Williams [00:51:00]:

  Right? Yeah. I definitely appreciate the iterations that architects go through behind scenes that, you know, they put a lot of time. I feel like, you know, especially in the digital age, you know, I have clients. We just met someone recently, a delightful couple. We're going to build for them, and they're just super nice people. But, you know, when you're, when you don't do this for a living, you don't always know. And I'm sort of like an armchair quarterback to architecture. Like, I know a lot of time and thought goes into it.

  Mark Williams [00:51:24]:

  And anyway, the real estate agent was sitting down with us, and, and they're like, oh, can you come up with some floor plans and a few elevations by Friday? And I was just like, man, they have no idea what they just asked this art with this architect to do. And, like, we really want to sell. And he's gonna, I mean, he probably's gonna have to drop everything he's gonna do. He's gonna have to work nights and crazy deals. And, you know, and I don't usually answer for them because I've learned sort of long ago, don't answer for them. Let them answer their own schedule. And he said, you know, I'll do my best, which is very open ended. But, um, I feel like when you don't understand how much time, and the other thing, too, is if you rush the process, the client going back to our marketing comment, like, they're going to judge you on your architecture when it's not done.

  Mark Williams [00:52:06]:

  I mean, if you don't give someone that the amount of time that they need to really create something unique and special, um, then you, then you're also holding, it's like you say, oh, we're not going to hold you to a higher standard. And then, then they, you deliver it, and then they hold you to a higher standard, you're like, it's not a fair statement. It's not. And I don't think they even realize it. And then that's where I would say as a builder, you know, I have to sort of step in as a moderator and just kind of, you know, sort of, I think that's what you ultimately pay. You know, I think that's what you pay for when you get experience how to navigate that, how to educate the client, how to, it's all kind of this nuanced sales process. I don't know how you would even write a book or, like, really describe that. It's more of a feeling, right.

  Mark Williams [00:52:48]:

  And you're, you know, maybe in that room, you're saying, hey, hey, oh, you know, huge shout out to Jackson. I mean, I cannot believe he was able to do this on such a short timeframe. I mean, that's crazy. Don't get your hopes up. And then, you know, if it turns out great, you're like, you know, you're the Dalai Lama. And if it doesn't turn out great, you're like, well, you know, you asked him do this in four days. Like, it's pretty amazing. He, you know, and also those classic lines of, you know, we're looking for a reaction, and I'm okay.

  Mark Williams [00:53:14]:

  And I'm honest about this. Like, I'm okay with a negative reaction. The only thing I'm not okay with is no reaction because I can't do anything with no reaction.

  Jackson Strom [00:53:24]:

  You find.

  Mark Williams [00:53:24]:

  Do you find that's true, too?

  Jackson Strom [00:53:26]:

  Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. We've dealt with everything you just described. And I'd say, too, like, you know, as far as that timeline, the story goes, I mean, I feel like you end up kind of shooting yourself in the foot, at least we have in the past with situations like that, too, because when you. When you. And don't get me wrong, we've pumped stuff out in certain time limits, which we're still very. We're still very happy with. But I think sometimes from the clients, and they say, oh, well, geez, that went so fast.

  Jackson Strom [00:53:54]:

  Or, you know, especially even when it comes, like, renderings and stuff, like, oh, well, don't you guys just press a few buttons? And that's like, it just kind of pops out and it's like, well, no, but I think sometimes, you know, when you're. When you're kind of giving, you know, you're producing stuff in a certain, you know, tight timeline, I think clients have it in their head that that that's just a kind of a. An easy task for you in reality, behind the scenes, you're kind of frantically, you know, getting it all put together, and it's. It's a maybe a little bit of stressful situation. But I know my first, my first boss would say that, of course, that was when, like, Google Sketchup was still probably pretty new and when, when I was practicing with him. But I know he would say, like, never, never pull up the model and, like, alter things in front of the client because that will give them the perception that, that it's just very easy, you know, and I've heard that since then. I've heard clients say like, oh, when you guys are doing the modeling, it's just like playing a video game or something.

  Mark Williams [00:54:51]:

  And it's like, well I can see there's a lot of merit in that advice. I think a lot of it depends on reading the room and who the client is, but I think that could be a very accurate statement.

  Jackson Strom [00:55:01]:

  Yep, exactly.

  Mark Williams [00:55:03]:

  Interesting how you mentioned just like a click of a button. Where do you know you're one of the younger architects I've had on the podcast so far. Where do you see there's a lot of chat, pun intended, about AI. What do you hear in NDSU because you're getting so many young students and maybe your own personal experience with this. But where do you see AI helping architecture and helping builders on the design side? And how far and how fast do you think the technology will be there to sort of aid you or direct you or, I mean, you know, I think people fear what they don't know. So I'm not going to go so far as to say like you can build that, but I mean most of the AI stuff is language based, but I have to imagine at some point, you know, someone had mentioned that architecture has a lot of math principles and computers do math extremely well. You know, could you, could you, you know, could you describe to some sort of a program like hey, I want a 5000 square foot house, you know, and give it some parameters. It can go, I don't know what it could do with sort, style and nuance and those types of things, but I assume at least from blocking out and like for some initial grunt work it would, I imagine it would probably be pretty helpful.

  Mark Williams [00:56:16]:

  What do you, what's your thoughts on the whole field?

  Jackson Strom [00:56:18]:

  Yeah, I mean, I agree, Mark. I mean I think it's, I view it as a potentially a supplemental thing, you know, chat, GPT, you know, that's totally different a little bit. But I know that in our office there has been discussion on using AI for, you know, what can it do for renderings, what can it do for modeling? And we've played with it a little bit, some of our younger team members have. And it is pretty wild what it can do. But there's still, I think it's still early, of course. I don't know, in a year maybe that's, maybe it's finessed by then, but it's still from what I've seen and just like at quick glance but it's still a little choppy. But I definitely think that there is. I'm sure it will be utilized and it'll get, it'll continue to get more and more finessed and I'll just have to retire early or something.

  Jackson Strom [00:57:10]:

  I don't know. Perfect.

  Mark Williams [00:57:11]:

  You can just have a bot do it.

  Jackson Strom [00:57:13]:

  Yeah. Yeah. Strum AI.

  Mark Williams [00:57:15]:

  What? You know, let's talk a little bit going back to the business side of things. You know, you hear a lot, at least on the builder side of things, you know, and I don't think homeowners know much about it, but construction administration or CA, and I think a lot of, I suspect this is true in North Dakota because it's true in Minnesota. So I'm guessing it's true there, too. But, you know, you get, you get different educated buyers some. I love working with someone who's built a home before or appreciates architecture because you don't really have to resell them on why we're paying Jackson or XYZ firm to do our work because they see the value in it, because they've seen it before. Sometimes when people haven't gone through the architecture route, they like, they like a home, but because they've never seen the sausage get made before, they don't really appreciate all the various parts that go in it. And they might, they might even be okay with your fee on the front end and they might do a big gulp. Every architecture, you know, firm, regardless of your price point, you know, they're like, oh, man, this design costs more than I thought it was.

  Mark Williams [00:58:13]:

  And you have to go through the value propositions and why this that? And another thing where I'm going with this is a lot of times you'll get someone, I'd say half the people want to stop once we bid it out and we have the permit set. And then the client will say to me, well, Mark, I'm paying you. You're the general contractor. You should know how to build a house. And they're not wrong. I do know how to build a house, but they're sort of trying to break up the team and they're, and can you speak a little bit rather than me just talking this whole time about the value of Ca and how you've responded to that question when, you know, clients have the builder and the architect in the room and they're maybe looking at you and saying, you know, Jackson, we don't need you anymore to do, you know, the construction administration, walk us through how you navigate that and what you tell people and how you educate them, because I think it's a really valuable thing that both builders need to get better educated on, myself included, as well as for certain, you know, the clients.

  Jackson Strom [00:59:13]:

  Yeah, well, I think you said a mouthful as far as having the builder and the architect in the room at the same time when that's being discussed. You know, I think touring different projects could help kind of tell the story a lot. I think for, in, in our experience, we kind of have three, three client, three buckets of clients. One client, one bucket. They don't want, like you said, after, after it's bid out and construction starts, they don't want to borderline see the architect again. Like we're done paying you. We have another bucket. The client says, we want you from start to finish.

  Jackson Strom [00:59:50]:

  We want you there all throughout construction. And that's just what we envision. We want the best product that, you know, we can. And then we probably have the third where kind of like what you said, they're open to having you involved during Ca, but they're, they're slightly confused why you need to be involved because they're kind of saying, well, isn't, doesn't, isn't the stuff the builder does or, and even to the point where there's, and I'm sure that's kind of what you were getting at, too, where there's, there's almost a little bit of frustration like, well, geez, I just paid this architect a bunch of money and I'm paying you a bunch of money and why, why do I need to, you know, pay this architect more now? Because I thought, I thought everything was figured out. And I think what's, it's just a continual, continual just having to educate the client all the way through because, because I think that's the biggest challenge in our profession is just the education of kind of the whole process and what we do and what you guys do and how you really make these projects that really sing in the end. Because I think for our clientele, a lot of them see certain projects and magazines or online and say, hey, we want that, but we don't necessarily want it to cost that much. And we don't really want to pay you as much as that architect got paid on that project or that builder, you know, got paid. So it's just kind of, it's kind of educating the client to, in a sense of like proving your value.

  Jackson Strom [01:01:15]:

  You like, what are you bringing to the table and why are you making this project and this experience that much better? Um, I think that kind of went on a tangent there, mark, but, I.

  Mark Williams [01:01:24]:

  Mean, I think you're. I think it comes down to education and communication. I think, and this is true of the builder. And because I would be fine, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing you would be, too, if. If we all had equal parts to explain our point of view on this client's home, me as the builder, you as the architect, and then the client can make an informed decision on what they want. It's their home. We're building it for them. And if that's really what they want, that's fine.

  Mark Williams [01:01:51]:

  We will do that. I think so often they make a decision without understanding at all. And I heard something recently that if people think your price is too high, your value statement is too short. And I appreciate that. But I think what that really, the root of that, that quote is that, you know, you haven't effectively communicated, you know, what it is that you do and the value that you bring. And it's okay if someone's value system doesn't line up with yours. That's okay. It took me a long time to realize that in business that, you know, I am not, you know, I don't view myself as a commodity.

  Mark Williams [01:02:25]:

  You know, I want to be in a relationship game, and we have a tremendous value. But if you don't value the things that I value, you know, that's okay. I'm just not for you, and that's okay. And, you know, I wish. I wish I understood that at a younger age. Sure. Would have made chasing jobs that you didn't need to chase a lot easier. I mean, honestly, applies to anything.

  Mark Williams [01:02:48]:

  It could have applied to chasing girlfriends instead of chasing your wife. I mean, you know, like, hey, wait, I have more to tell you. I'm really a lot cooler than you've been led to believe. We didn't realize this was going to turn into a dating podcast for those. But lessons. Lessons learned from Jackson and Mark, right? Yeah, episode two.

  Jackson Strom [01:03:13]:

  I don't know if one thing I was going to add to that, too, Mark, is one thing I've experienced, too, is, and I don't know if you've felt this way, but I also feel like once the project gets to a certain point, the client is much more, there's much more weight on what the builder is saying. So every once in a while, we have a builder. It's like, oh, you don't need the architect past this point. And the client is saying, okay, well, that's what the builder says. Like, that sounds fine with us. Versus there's other times where the builder says, we need this architect involved throughout this process. And then most times the client says, okay, you know, so I don't know if you've ever felt that way.

  Mark Williams [01:03:48]:

  Oh, yeah. I know that the client is looking for that. I would never say that. I mean, maybe early on in my career, before I understood it or before I understood the value, I could see myself doing that, but I would never do that. I'd say in the last seven, eight years, I would never have said that. I really look at it because I do get asked that question a lot because at least in Minnesota, I know, having interviewed people around the country, you know, certain parts of the country, the client will, the architect is the first point of contact. And so then they're bringing in the builder. In some places, it's the interior designer, and then they assemble the team.

  Mark Williams [01:04:20]:

  In Minnesota, we have extremely strong, you know, um, you know, hold on the public's imagination from the pray to homes for 75 years and our builders association. So predominantly people are coming to builders first, which is great for me, and it just is what it is. I don't think there's a right or a wrong. I think the real right is just making sure you assemble the entire team. I mean, right now we're working on a project where, you know, we have some land. And so, you know, we'll interview, you know, an architect or two, depending on, you know, their vibe. And sometimes it's just, I just know, right? Like, this is the arc. This is just the designer and the architect for them.

  Mark Williams [01:04:54]:

  And, you know, if there's an issue, then I'll bring in, you know, one b or plan b. But, you know, why rock the boat if, you know, a lot of times, as the professional, they're looking to you, but that, that shoe can be flipped on the other side if they're coming to the architect first. And, you know, and let's say I'm the builder trying to get some of the work, and I'd really like to be considered. And the architect's like, yeah, I just don't think you're, you're the guy. You just might not be the guy for that client, or you might not. Or the hard part is you also might not be the guy for that architect. And they're usually not going to tell you which one it is. Which makes it, again, going back to confusion.

  Mark Williams [01:05:29]:

  You don't know where you stand. And so again, it's, it's creating a relationship that goes both ways where you can just be honest and, you know, very transparent with the, you know, the person that you're speaking with, whether it's the client or your trade partner. Because at the end of the day, we all benefit when we have. Have clear communication.

  Jackson Strom [01:05:45]:

  Yeah, no, that's 100% right. That's 100% right.

  Mark Williams [01:05:49]:

  Well, we are just past an hour here, so I want to respect your time. Where can our listeners find you if they're a builder and they want to reach out to have you do some architecture, or if fellow architecture designers just want to talk shop and reach out to you? What are your best platforms?

  Jackson Strom [01:06:03]:

  Yeah, our website, strumark.com, and then social media is just at Strumark. So arch. And yeah, you can find most everything about us on either one of those.

  Mark Williams [01:06:13]:

  You know, it just dawned on me. Are you related at all to Chris Strom?

  Jackson Strom [01:06:18]:

  No, I'm not.

  Mark Williams [01:06:19]:

  Okay.

  Jackson Strom [01:06:20]:

  Yeah.

  Mark Williams [01:06:20]:

  Okay. I mean, there's a well known architect here in Minneapolis, Christopher Strom, which I'm sure you've probably been asked that question before. Just down on me right now.

  Jackson Strom [01:06:26]:

  Great. Yeah, no, I don't think there's any. I don't have any relatives in Minneapolis area.

  Mark Williams [01:06:31]:

  Right. Okay. Well, very good. Thanks again for coming on the Curious Builder podcast. And if you like what you've listened to, please give us a, like a follow and give us a review. And feel free to share with your friends and family or other business owners. We appreciate those that are listening. Thanks again for coming on.

  Mark Williams [01:06:49]:

  We are happy to announce that we have a one to one coaching session that can be found on our curious builder podcast platform. So you can book a time with me and it'll be 1 hour to ask any sort of questions that you want. Talk about business, talk about life, talk about scheduling. Maybe you're dealing with a difficult client and you just want to maybe shop with another builder and say, hey, how do I handle this? Or maybe you're looking to rebrand your company, whatever it might be. You can head to our website and book a time, and I'd be happy to sit down and give you that hour, and we can talk about whatever's on your mind. We're excited to announce that we have partnered with harness workwear. They're an amazing shirt company. I'm actually wearing it right now if you're on YouTube.

  Mark Williams [01:07:27]:

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  Mark Williams [01:08:05]:

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