Episode 66 - Build Buzz - Building with Integrity: Craftsmanship, Quality, and Client Relationships

Episode #66 | Build Buzz Live Podcast | Building with Integrity

In this special LIVE episode of The Curious Builder, host Mark Williams chats with industry experts like Nick Schiffer, Morgan Molitor, Brad Leavitt and Tyler Grace about the essence of craftsmanship, the importance of fair compensation, and the art of building lasting client relationships. They dive into everything from navigating the challenges of legacy building and financial stability to leveraging brand partnerships and the power of authenticity. Tune in for practical tips and heartwarming stories that highlight both the struggles and the rewards of being a dedicated builder.

Listen to the full episode:

About the Contractor Coalition Sumit

An intimate four-day summit ( with pre-party activities starting the day prior) hosted by AFT Construction from Scottsdale, NS Builders out of Boston, and construction2style from Minneapolis - this conference is geared towards General Contractors.

Nick, Brad, and Morgan come from different segments of the construction industry, ranging from high-end luxury builders to interior residential remodelers, designers, and media companies. This diversity suggests that attendees can expect a well-rounded perspective on various aspects of the business.

They have spent a combined 40+ years in this industry investing hundreds of thousands of dollars to be able to get their brand and companies where they are at today. They will leave nothing off of the table at this intimate summit and are confident that you will get your value within the first hour.

Wondering how to address contracting systems, create organizational charts, billing, scaling, creating AIA docs, contracts, subcontracts, cost-plus percentages, scheduling, expansion on sales beyond the construction business, how to produce multiple streams of revenue through the construction industry, secure brand partnerships, or simply how to run a profitable construction business? We got you.

Upcoming Contractor Coalition Sumit is September 27-30, 2024 in Boston MA

Resources

• Visit the Contractor Coalition Summit Website

• Transcript

  Mark Williams [00:00:06]:

  All right, let's get this shindig going. I want to thank our sponsors. Obviously, a big shout out to Anderson. Maybe we'll hold our applause till the end because there's quite a few sponsors. And really, it's important that we can't put on events like this without our sponsors. Each one of us have our own building companies and different media platforms that without our sponsors, without our partners, without the people that really encourage us and help us do what we do, none of this is possible. So it takes a community, it takes a village. So I want to thank each one of them.

  Mark Williams [00:00:33]:

  Obviously, we've got Anderson, we've got Dakota county lumber. We've got all ink and built to last. Custom cabinets. They're both located here. Closets. Closets. Sorry, I always say cabinets. They could probably do cabinets.

  Mark Williams [00:00:45]:

  I mean, their closets are legit. So Alana Wynn is in here. I think she might be here tonight. There we go. So we've got some Minnesota rep here. We've got Sean's cabinetry. They're gonna be the sponsor of the game room, which I wanna bring up, actually, Morgan was just mentioning. So when we're all done, and we'll kinda give you some exit information.

  Mark Williams [00:01:03]:

  But in the back, there's actually three golf bays. So obviously there's plenty of drinks. Go see if you can out drive somebody. But the games are here and they're sponsored, so you might as well put them to use. Big shout out to pro remodeler and redwing. We're all wearing some red wing kicks, so they're located in Red Wing, Minnesota. So I thought it might be nice to. For those that are flying in most, it seems like.

  Nick Schiffer [00:01:23]:

  Not Brad.

  Mark Williams [00:01:24]:

  Not Brad. They didn't go with his nice Armani suit, but that's all right. Their next version might. Big shout out to harnish workwear. So I first found them through modern craftsmen. I saw Casey has got his modern craftsman shirt on, which is pretty great. And they're on the east coast. Harnish was kind enough to give everyone here a shirt.

  Mark Williams [00:01:43]:

  We have kind of mixed sizes, mediums, larges, and extra larges. If there's a size that doesn't work for you, maybe talk to your neighbor. There's also a bunch of extra shirts in the back, so swap them out on the way back. So huge shout out to them for supporting their community. The riffin trio. My brother in law, Nelson Devereaux and his band. Big shout out to the jazz group in the back. So they'll be playing all evening as well, they're also for hire and they tour.

  Mark Williams [00:02:09]:

  So even if you're out of state, bring them in. These guys are awesome. Doug from Motif medial, the man behind all the podcasts and the camera right here. And then last but not least is Chelsea Lopez on the lifestyle camera over here. So a big shout out to her. Yeah, I think that's all the sponsors. Let's do a big round of applause for all the sponsors. Yep.

  Mark Williams [00:02:37]:

  You're likely not here if you don't already know someone up here. But for those that maybe got drug here and didn't know what they're getting into, or you just wandered it in the back, I'll do a brief intro of each person. Brad Levitt is one of the founders of the contractor coalition. He builds incredible homes out of Scottsdale, Arizona. Movie stars, professional athletes. This is the guy that they call. So if you ever wondered who built those homes, it's this guy. He also has a podcast, the Brad Levitt podcast.

  Mark Williams [00:03:04]:

  And I get a lot of people that ask me, like, is Brad really as great and kind and authentic as he comes across? Yeah, he is. So unless he's a mass murderer that nobody knows about, this guy is the real deal. So give him a follow. Give him a, like, listen to his podcast. He's OG when it comes to that. Morgan Molitor is here from Minneapolis. Well, elk river technically, but she's also one of the founders of the contractor coalition. And for my own personal self, that's how I met everyone here is.

  Mark Williams [00:03:34]:

  I came to what you're doing. I came to a contractor coalition. I called Morgan because she was from Minnesota. I didn't know who Brad and Nick were because I lived in a rock under a cave.

  Nick Schiffer [00:03:41]:

  I don't think.

  Mark Williams [00:03:42]:

  I think it's the other way around.

  Nick Schiffer [00:03:43]:

  I didn't know who we were.

  Mark Williams [00:03:43]:

  I didn't know who anybody was. In fact, my wife is the one that said, hey, you should do what Morgan is doing. So I called Morgan. I said, hey, is this a good investment? And she goes, you'll make your money back in the first hour. And she was right. What she didn't know is that I would call her three times a week for the rest of her life and that we would be best friends forever. She's the person you want on your team. She's your ultimate superfan.

  Mark Williams [00:04:03]:

  If you are in her space, she will support you. She's an amazing person and a valuable friend. I've got Nick Schiffer with NS Builders and the modern craftsman, one of the co hosts. Nick, have you ever met someone who's so obsessed with perfection that sometimes they can't get it out of their own way? That's this guy. He's incredibly detailed. And the homes that he builds out of Boston, Massachusetts are unreal. Follow what he's doing with his new spec home. It's pretty incredible.

  Mark Williams [00:04:30]:

  And, you know, I think the industry is better with somebody like you in it. So kudos to what you're doing. My favorite line, which I had to dumb down because my parents are in attendance, is, you know, your ideal client is someone that you want to build cool beep homes with cool people. And so I like that you just say it. You can say it.

  Speaker C [00:04:48]:

  Cool shit with cool people.

  Mark Williams [00:04:49]:

  There you go.

  Speaker C [00:04:50]:

  Sorry, Mark's parents.

  Mark Williams [00:04:54]:

  Yeah. Don't worry. The dove soap is coming to wash that mouth out later. And last but not least is my polar opposite, Tyler Grace. We only say that from a personality set, but he's a. He has TRG home concepts remodeler out of New Jersey, as well as a co host with Nick on the modern craftsman. I think one of the things I appreciate most about Tyler is he is probably the best question asker that I know. And I say that because I'm sort of in awe, having been pretty new to this whole podcast thing.

  Mark Williams [00:05:24]:

  As you kind of. As I stumble through my way of what I'm trying to think, I have to say things out loud before I know what I'm saying. Tyler is able to absorb all this information, and what comes out is just like, you want to write it down. And so he's an amazing person in terms of he really cares about you. And anyway, as someone else in the industry, I appreciate the insight that you have for your fellow craftsmen. He's also one of the few people that still puts on a tool belt, actually, the only person that can put on a tool belt, Nick used to. And so I appreciate your insight on the tradesmen still working, and I feel like you can connect with them in a way that I know I can't. And so I appreciate that.

  Mark Williams [00:06:00]:

  So that's our panel. I'm Mark Williams. I'm a builder here in Minnesota, and I have the curious Builder podcast. Thanks for coming.

  Speaker D [00:06:11]:

  Oh, no, we're not done.

  Mark Williams [00:06:13]:

  I thought we're done.

  Nick Schiffer [00:06:14]:

  That's right.

  Mark Williams [00:06:15]:

  All right, so all the questions have been submitted by you. I think I'll start first with Morgan. This is a question that comes up all the time, and I know I struggle with it. I don't know how you can be an entrepreneur and not struggle with this question, and then we'll kind of go around the horn. But basically, how do you work on the business and not in the business?

  Nick Schiffer [00:06:31]:

  And I didn't read any of these before because that's how I like to fly. I'd say, like, the first thing is obviously, like, hiring a team that you can trust and that they. Right. Like, you can delegate to them and so that you can focus on things, on working on the business and not in the business. I would say it also helps being married to someone like Jamie Molitor, that is working physically in the business every day so that I can be working on the business. And then also just surrounding yourself, like, everyone in the room, too. And, like, we have that conversation all the time, and it's like truly learning things to be able to work on the business, take yourself away from it and taking the time, and then also trusting your team to be able to, like, when they're doing the work, do the work. And if you don't think it's up to par, like someone said, hit 80% is good enough to your perfection, which is hard.

  Mark Williams [00:07:20]:

  Nick, you had a line on that once, about 60% replacing yourself.

  Nick Schiffer [00:07:23]:

  Oh, is it 60?

  Speaker C [00:07:24]:

  I don't remember the exact amount, but I know that our perfection or good enough is much higher than, or at least mine is much higher than the 80% to a fall.

  Mark Williams [00:07:34]:

  I remember you saying that basically, when you hire somebody to replace what you can do, they can start at 60%. They just can't stay there. Yeah.

  Speaker C [00:07:42]:

  I think from a hiring perspective, it's something that I continue to struggle with in terms of what I delegate, because constantly I'm faced with, well, I know how I want to get this done. I think a lot of us in this room feel this way, where it's like, I know how to get it done, so it will be easier if I just do it. But the sooner you are able to find the right people and bring the right people on your team, the sooner you're able to trust that process that they will learn through your coaching and your leadership. I think that conversation that you and I had, Mark, was that there's a point where you make all the mistakes and you are at a point in your business that you feel as though you don't make those same mistakes anymore. And then you go hire someone, and then all of a sudden you're making those mistakes again, and you have to. I think that's one of the hardest things as an entrepreneur is to learn, is that you have to be okay with the fact that they're going to make those mistakes because they haven't made them before. And there's a really delicate balance between preventing them from making a mistake and coaching them through the actual mistake.

  Speaker D [00:08:46]:

  It's interesting because one thing we speak about, I think, for me, and I spoke to some of the attendees at the home tour today, there was actually a point in my career, I'd say I was probably five years in, and I remember thinking, can people make money doing this as a career in construction? And I had paid too many people to build their house and was trying. I was kind of at this tipping point where, you know, I really wanted to understand how could I get these signature projects, some of which we're doing now. And I remember speaking to not just previous clients, but architects, some of the interior designers, and really what I gathered from that information, they said, Brad, like, if you have excellent systems and project management and you understand your business, and anyone who listens to my podcast, I'm obsessed with, you know, we're business owners that happen to focus in construction. And so by understanding the business, what I realized is that at that point, I was now winning these jobs, right, these signature projects, because we had the systems in place and there is a fine balance. Like Nick and Morgan were mentioning that, you know, Paul's here, who's with my team. We have 30 people now, and they're incredibly talented. And so having very talented people, empowering them, having systems, having protocol, now they can run with it so that I can focus on the business with my leadership team, and that every day we're creating systems and innovation that make that process smoother. Because as you want to level up to that client, they expect a certain amount of sophistication from a builder, project management.

  Speaker D [00:10:23]:

  That customer experience is really important.

  Mark Williams [00:10:25]:

  This was a question that came up in relationship to what you just mentioned, which is, at what point in the scale period can you start dedicating more time to just working on the business? And I framed that with, like, when I first met you two years ago, you had 19 employees. Now you have 27. A lot of people may be looking on, myself included, be like, wow, you have a lot bigger team. I can see how now you have time, but let's say, can you speak that, or can anybody speak to the fact that maybe you have three employees or four employees? I mean, it seems like you kind of have to do a little bit of everything.

  Speaker D [00:10:55]:

  Well, you do. But what I realize now, that's, I shouldn't say too late because we're doing it, but had I started earlier in my career, one thing I would have done is even if I was the sole person, like when I first started, right? And I'm in the field superintendent, I'm doing marketing, I'm doing accounting, I'm doing business development. There is something understanding how that Baton has passed throughout the building process. And so creating sops and procedures and operations. Now, when we have employees start, as you mentioned, we've onboarded, we're at 30 now, so we have 30 employees. And when they onboard, we actually have documents that they follow. And onboard, I would have done that sooner with one person or two people. Because then you get to a point that they can really understand what the procedures are, which allows you, frees you up for focusing, looking, strategizing on better projects, whether you're marketing or whatever it may be.

  Speaker C [00:11:46]:

  I think your question mark about scale, I don't think it's a matter of how many people. I think what Brad is talking about is really important is that when you start documenting those processes early, it's going to feel like pointless. It's like I have three people, four people, five people. Why would I document the onboarding on how I hire someone? The reality is, the sooner you do that, the sooner you're able to replace yourself. Whether it is an SOP or a document or it's a new hire. You know, you're never going to get there if you're constantly having to start from zero with every new hire.

  Speaker D [00:12:21]:

  But. But you have to start, like Nick's saying, you. If you document it well, now you just add on, right? Mark La Liberte's here. He's going to be speaking. We had him come in and he's now setting building standards for us as a builder to separate us. Now you add that layer in, right? And you continue to add these layers after layer. A mistake happens by one of our supers or field personnel. Okay? It's documented, it's noted.

  Speaker D [00:12:41]:

  We address it and we make sure, to Nick's point, we don't want to make that same mistake again. So we make sure that everyone's aware of it to some extent, not throwing someone under the bus, but at least so we can understand it and not make that again.

  Mark Williams [00:12:52]:

  Tyler, you have a smaller operation. How do you navigate working on the business? Because you're still putting on the tool belt and you're working it. How do you, from billing to planning to marketing and maybe speak to us a little bit? I'm from a smaller scale, so first.

  Speaker E [00:13:09]:

  Off, there's no way we're getting through any of these? We're on the first question. You have like, 25 questions in here to not elaborate too much on this for time's sake. I think that you have to make enough money to be able to step back or to put somebody in that position. I think that as an owner operator or as a five man team or 30 man team, woman included, if you're not making enough money to be able to analyze, engage your business, you're just in it. You can't get out of it. You're going through the motions and you're trying to keep something afloat rather than actually realizing what your efficiencies are and where you can make profit within your business. So I think the first thing is to actually understand your numbers, make sure that you afford yourself enough time to step back from the business and analyze it. And I think that that's going to help you progress in business.

  Mark Williams [00:14:10]:

  Maybe. Moving on to another question.

  Speaker E [00:14:13]:

  I was trying to cover two at once.

  Mark Williams [00:14:16]:

  Well, actually, you're right. Up next, the future of home building and the future of the workforce. You know, it's very well publicized that there seems to be a lot of people retiring, and there doesn't seem to be enough of our trade partners and subcontractors and builders filling those shoes. Five to one, you know, how do you see sort of the future as you talk to people in the field? You know, what is your outlook?

  Speaker E [00:14:40]:

  I think things have changed some, but I also think there's a lot of people who are getting out of the industry. And I look at it as a bit of natural selection, right, where the people who are here are demanding more money, it's harder to find good people. So to retain people, it's, it's taking more effort. It's taking more money. So I think that realistically, like, I used to believe, that this and the community that we've built and established and been a part of was somewhat of a microcosm of our industry. But I think as we move forward, this is going to be the standard, right. It's going to be harder to run a good, profitable business that does great work, and I think that it's going to be more people like ourselves who are investing in themselves. So I kind of see this more so as the future of where the industry is headed because it's just going to take a lot more to do the work that you need to do with good people.

  Speaker C [00:15:39]:

  I'll add to that. I think that it goes along with what we're talking about with systems and not to beat that into the conversation. But that will become more and more important, because when there's an abundance of people in the trade, you can spread the wealth and more people can do less. And if we have less people, people are required to do more. So the more we can offload. I can talk for hours about AI and technology and stuff like that. You probably heard me talk about this on the podcast, but those are going to be the opportunities that we will need to implement to kind of offload some of the redundancy in what we do. I think one of the biggest things in our industry is everyone in this room that owns a business built their business from zero.

  Speaker C [00:16:25]:

  They decided how they were going to invoice, they decided how they were going to estimate, they were going to decided what their process was. And if we could kind of simplify that and have one standard process that we could help plug into multiple businesses, I think it would help a lot of us survive and really thrive.

  Mark Williams [00:16:43]:

  I think that's great feedback. You know, a lot of the higher end homes that we're building, you know, we might be in design for a year. You might build two to three years. Brad, some of your projects are, you know, longer than that. One of the questions that came up was, how do you continue to engage the clients? How do you keep them happy? How do you keep, you know, like a cruise boat director? I often use as a, as an analogy, I often do is like, you gotta get cookies. Yeah. I mean, the shift from point a to point b, but you gotta keep everyone happy the whole way. Can you speak a little bit to what is your client process in terms of, you know, keeping the client experience at a high level?

  Speaker D [00:17:18]:

  So I'll give a sports analogy. I'm a big sports guy, and the reality is you have to constantly be playing offense instead of defense. And what I mean by that is what ends up happening with clients at any relationship is when they get to the point that they feel they have to micromanage you because they don't feel you're running their job right. Then you've essentially lost the respect in the project. And so as builders. And what that means is we may have a schedule, we may have a commitment, we may have a timeline, but if the client calls and says, hey, Brad, where am I at? Right. Why didn't so and so show up today? Which does happen, that's a fault on us. We should make sure that a superintendent are in the field, that we're addressing it.

  Speaker D [00:17:59]:

  Hey, we had planned to pour footings today, but concrete truck is backed up guy got a flat tire. It's okay. We have the jester. We're going to be there tomorrow. And so if we're constantly playing offense and ahead of it and really what that comes down to, which I know we'll speak a lot about this weekend, is setting expectations, how we set clear expectations. You know, I speak about that emotional roller coaster that clients go through. And so having clear expectations, and really at the core of it, it's knowing your business. If you understand your business, this goes back to the first question, and you understand the building process and what it takes to close a home.

  Speaker D [00:18:32]:

  You can clearly communicate that to a client and help lift them through. Like, we have some bills that are five years right between design and build.

  Mark Williams [00:18:39]:

  So you had shared something once with us at the contractor coalition, and I've implemented it where, you know, maybe every six months, you sit down and break bread with your homeowners, speak a little bit about how you've experienced that and how you implemented that. I think that's just really unique.

  Speaker D [00:18:55]:

  I think one thing I struggled. You kind of finished the project, and you're like, let's go to dinner. And the client may be like, I'm tired of you. I've seen you for two years. You know, House was late, or we had this change order. I mean, whatever it is, what I found is halfway through the project, we'll go to a really nice steakhouse, you know, like in Phoenix, steak 44. And we'll take our superintendent and spouse and coordinator and spouse and the client and us, and essentially, midway through the project, just had dinner. Right.

  Speaker D [00:19:22]:

  And they'll meet, you know, my wife. And so you're there together, and it becomes very personal halfway through the building, and then you find that that relationship is a lot better and more personal as you get through it.

  Mark Williams [00:19:35]:

  Tyler, maybe I'll ask you this question. One of those questions that was submitted was somebody that's one of our trade partners, and they said, you know, as high end builders, are we willing to be advised by, let's say, our electrician or by our H Vac company? Can you speak a little bit to. I suspect the question is, you know, they would like to have input so that they could change maybe some of the operation. You know, as a high end builder, how do you engage, and how do you leave the door open so that your trade partners feel like they can have a voice?

  Speaker E [00:20:06]:

  Well, I start that at the pre construction stage of the game when I'm looking at developing a budget or a scope for a project to bring my trade partners through and start helping engage them to help develop the scope and obviously at that point develop a schedule, develop a budget. But I can go based off experience and a project that I've done before was similar to this and I can develop that all on my own. There are certain times that I will do that, but a lot of times at some point prior to work contract, I want that sub there to get their eyes on it and explain, hey, this may be an issue. Have you considered that possibly we could change this? It's going to bump up the scheduler, make it less, less expensive. So a lot of times for me engaging the subs, it's not during the project, it's before the project, when we're in pre construction.

  Mark Williams [00:20:58]:

  Morgan, maybe on the brand side of things, just because you have such great experience there, are you engaging with the brands as you develop not only the content and the deliverables for them? How often are you engaging your partners and saying, hey, this is what I want to do, or just walk us through that process. You've always told us, give them more than they asked for. Can you speak a little to that?

  Nick Schiffer [00:21:21]:

  I was like, that's a loaded question. And it depends per project of what we're doing. But I would say we have our brand partners that we want to work with. We develop the relationships with them, especially here at the contractor coalition, and we just get to know them. And one of the big things I'm always asking them is like, what are you bringing to market this year and how can we best support you? And so trying to figure that out with our projects. So we know when our projects are coming and then we kind of know like, oh, Anderson is rolling out this new door coming up here, this new screen door, and they're going to be launching affiliate links and we're going to be talking about it. So I already know that that's happening this upcoming summer and we already have projects in place to bring that into the project. Does that kind of answer it? Yeah, I thought it was great.

  Nick Schiffer [00:22:05]:

  I'm like, otherwise, every single project, you know, we have all reflection sheets. And then if I'm in the mood for pitching, because you also have to deliver the content. So then I like, start pitching them and I start saying, like, here's countertops, here's windows, here's tile, here's, and here's what we'll deliver. Like, we'll create a storyline from it and we'll take our community from the beginning to the end, create content from it and create whatever they're looking forward to.

  Speaker C [00:22:27]:

  Can I, can I just. Yeah, I want to chime in on that. So brand partnerships is something that comes up a lot. A lot of people ask questions on it. What do I charge? You know, I'm not going to get into that, but I think the most important tip that I can give is that they need to believe in what you're doing and the story, whether it's the project, whether it's the business, or whether it's the individual. Oftentimes it's all three. And I think a lot of times that kind of gets pushed to the side and it's just a matter of how can I promote this product, get paid for it and do a posting and move on. And that's not always the case.

  Speaker C [00:23:03]:

  You should be looking at it from how do I communicate what I want to do in my career, in my life, in this project, and how do I get them to buy in to be part of that?

  Nick Schiffer [00:23:13]:

  And that's why, too, it goes back to the storytelling and just continuously talking about this brand, getting to know them on a personal level, be talking and using this brand before a project even begins.

  Mark Williams [00:23:24]:

  I like that question, whoever asked it, because I think if you are not getting access to the table, I think the person that you're following, the leader, whether it's a general contractor, whoever it is, if you're just looking for order takers, is that someone you really want to even be working with? Number one, to your point, and everyone up here, I probably know the least about construction. The question is, I've always asked a lot of questions. And so I can't build the homes that I build without the talented people that I have here. I've got Mike Schmillin, who I've known since high school. He's my main tile installer. He'll know more about tile than I could ever hope to know. Of course I'm going to ask him and engage your partners. And I love what Tyler said, bringing him in from the very beginning.

  Mark Williams [00:24:05]:

  So I think whoever's out there that asks this question, I think go to the people you're working with and ask them, hey, can we sit down and talk about this? Because I can bring value, because I guarantee if you can bring value to any of us, we will listen well.

  Nick Schiffer [00:24:20]:

  And I. Yeah, just the last thing to add to that, too. I'm like, when you go to Vegas for the IB's show or K biz show, it's like, that's a great opportunity to start to get to know your brands, your partners, what's coming to market this year, and start to think, like, how can I tell the story for them? Like, you should be making their job easier, and you should be delivering content that they need for their own marketing. Like, that's the point of the content that you're creating.

  Mark Williams [00:24:43]:

  Moving on to another question here for you, Nick, is, you know, one of the questions was, you know, as you know, building is very cyclical. It goes up and down. We do the best we can to kind of keep our pipeline, you know, as steady as we can, but it's construction. It's really hard. And how do you keep your employees? How do you manage a slowdown when you don't know how long it's going to last? Can you speak a little bit of just working with your employees and, you know, as the business owner, you're looking down the barrel of a gun, looking at cash flow monthly, daily, daily. Check your phone. Can you speak to that a little bit?

  Speaker C [00:25:18]:

  Yeah, I think it's. I mean, it's difficult, right. I think that, you know, we try to manage a pipeline. I want to speak on this a couple different lights, but we try to manage a pipeline that we are proud of, too. Right. And social media has done this interesting thing to us, that we only chase the idealistic, and there's oftentimes we put ourselves in positions where you're chasing idealistic, but revenue drops, and then what do I do with my guys? And then you're forced to take on a job that you don't like. And I think that there's a careful balance between taking on projects that are good for revenue and also good for marketing. And that leads into, obviously, when you invest heavily into a marketing esque type project.

  Speaker C [00:26:02]:

  But I think from the employee side, it's transparency and it's communication. Something that my team has, you know, giving me feedback on is that when we sit down and have an open conversation about where we stand and where we're going and what's in the pipeline, they appreciate it. And full disclosure, I'm not the best at it. I have a little reminder in my calendar that tells me, hey, time to send out that monthly company update that you promised everyone to do. And sometimes I don't, but when I do and when we sit down in what we call an all hands meeting and we talk about it, there's this sense of encouragement where I might be chasing a job for 18 months, and I have a super that's coming up on a job that he's in finnish and he doesn't know where he's going and he wants to know. And, you know, and I run the risk of, do I tell him now? Because I'm not sure if it's this one or that one, when the reality is it's just having an open conversation and being, and elaborating on where we stand and what the plan is. So at least he knows that I'm working towards a plan, not just flying by the seat of my pants.

  Mark Williams [00:27:10]:

  In terms of managing cash flow, I think this is kind of a similar question, and maybe I'll defer to you, Brad, on this one. How do you manage cash flow? One thing you've been really helpful in, the contractor coalition is taking larger down payments. But can you speak to a little bit, everyone has experienced the yo yo effect of you get that sale and you're like, yes. And you get that first down payment, and then you get this yo yo effect. How have you experienced a way to sort of even out some of those troughs and valleys?

  Speaker D [00:27:38]:

  It's a really good question. I think you have to have a really good financial team that you consult with. And depending on the size of your company, it could be internal, it could be external. I think there's a lot of resources out there. But essentially, at the core of it is I've learned to be a lot more confident to tell clients I'm not the bank, right. I'm not here to finance the job. So we have to make sure that they're feeding the meter right, that there is a responsibility. And I think one of the best lessons probably Nick and I had learned is there's a builder in our builder group who's getting close to retirement.

  Speaker D [00:28:10]:

  He's in his seventies. And I remember sitting there in one of our meetings, and in his contract, he has terms with his clients. And one of the terms is that if he's not paid in five days, they start accruing 25% interest like a credit card. And I'm like, there's no way you get away with this with your clients. And he said, yeah, I do, because I tell them, if you don't plan on paying me, tell me now before I start. And he's never had a cash flow issue. And so I think this goes back to the core of it that, you know, learning deposits, and this is where it's really important to understand. I think the financial strategy behind it is, because everything's great when a client's paying cash, right? You can leverage a deposit.

  Speaker D [00:28:50]:

  You can work through that. You can work through terms. Now, the bank gets involved. And what happens when there's banks is banks feel that they can dictate whatever they want to you because you're the builder. And what I've learned in my career, especially the last four years, is that we can tell the bank what to do as well. And so we have to be involved in that pre construction process with the bank and outline the terms for draws. When the draws are funded, and then when deposits are made, then, no, we're not applying it to certain lines because then when it comes time to build those lines, those money, that money is not available. So you become more savvy, just understanding that this is how we can push back to the bank and work with the clients so that we have terms that allow us to fund the project properly.

  Mark Williams [00:29:33]:

  And before all of you go out there and change your contracts to do that, like I did, you should run it by your state and your lawyer. So in the state of Minnesota, it's illegal to do 25%. I asked my lawyer to do it and he said I. 25% interest expense, it's illegal in Minnesota.

  Speaker D [00:29:49]:

  And it could be. But you could charge something else possibly. I don't know, but you could. But, but I think even if it's not 25%, there is some interest rate that is valid and it could be 6%, it could be eight. But what you can push on are the terms. You could make sure that they're not taking 28 days to fund and maybe they're taking four. So there is leverage with that. And I don't have 25% terms just for what that's.

  Mark Williams [00:30:12]:

  I thought it was really inventive. My lawyer, every time I come back from these contractor coalitions and I call my lawyer with all my ideas, he's like, were you just at the contractor coalition? He's learned what your name is at this point. So anyway, you all be calling your lawyers here at some point. Maybe for you. Morgan, how did you establish yourself as a brand in a target market that's not only ideal for your clientele, but, you know, at this point, you know, you're this incredible brand. And, you know, you so many companies.

  Nick Schiffer [00:30:44]:

  Everyone knows that's true.

  Mark Williams [00:30:45]:

  Every, well, speak to that because everyone is an important brand. It's a little bit like everyone has something important and value in themselves, but speak to how you've grown your brand and how you navigate. Like, how do you manage that?

  Nick Schiffer [00:30:56]:

  Yeah, well, I would say since the beginning, like, we, our motto kind of is, like, since 2012, we've been keeping it real. Like, we put that on our website, we kind of have it on everything. And, like, I have always tried since the beginning to just be transparent. Like, our whole company started because we started documenting how Jamie was buying an investment property, how he was, you know, renovating it to sell what we bought it for, what we were doing to it. And so that's kind of how our business and brand took off. But I would say just from the beginning, I've always tried to be who I am, true to myself. I think there for a while, too, I was like, oh, I should be what other people want me to be. And I, like, started to try to think of other things, of how to show up online, or you start to get into this algorithm game and try to be like, oh, I need to do this, or I need to niche down and only show this content.

  Nick Schiffer [00:31:43]:

  And then I was like, screw all this. I'm just going to be myself. Sometimes. I swear. I'm going to swear. Sometimes I do this or that. All of a sudden we start attracting the clients that we actually want to work with and the clients that are real and that are vulnerable and that have been through hard stuff. And so the more I share about that, the more it's like those are the people that are showing up.

  Nick Schiffer [00:32:03]:

  So that's one thing, too. When people ask, like, what do you wish you would have done sooner? Even though I just said, like, we started being transparent, I just wish that we would have, like, stuck from that the whole way through. Like, just be who we are.

  Mark Williams [00:32:15]:

  Something you shared previously was your vibe attracts your tribe.

  Nick Schiffer [00:32:19]:

  Yes.

  Mark Williams [00:32:19]:

  I was speaking to Marcus earlier today in the car a little bit about this. He asked a little bit about, like, if you could go back, kind of like what this question is. And I just said, be authentic. I think when you are just yourself, regardless of what it is that appeals to people. And I don't know if it's experience or time, but I feel like when brands approach you, I don't think they're asking you to change. They're coming to you because they already like what you are, right?

  Nick Schiffer [00:32:41]:

  And if they do ask you to change, red flag. Because a lot of times we will have brands that are like, can you put this in your post? I'm like, no, I do not talk like that. This is not going to work.

  Mark Williams [00:32:50]:

  Nick, maybe I'll turn this one to you. So you have kind of two different brands. You have, obviously, NS builders, but you also kind of have your own personal brand. Can you speak a little bit to kind of the marketing behind that or like, what your thought process is in that.

  Speaker C [00:33:03]:

  Sure. And Doug's gonna laugh because I changed it daily. I have a great slack channel. It's like, hey, idea of the day. Very similar to you, Mark. The personal brand was really to allow me to work with Tyler on the modern craftsman as a brand and materia and motif and just really as an industry leader and take the position where it's like I want to help the industry. You know, selfishly, I want to build the coolest shit with the coolest people. I want to build cool homes.

  Speaker C [00:33:32]:

  Like that's what I want to be known for. But right behind that I also want to give back to the industry where it's as I learn and as I'm using product or working with vendors or working through details. That's why I document and I share it because I'm doing it obviously for promotion, but also in a way that hopefully you guys are learning from. So that separation between who I am and who the business is was largely due to that and allow the business to be the product and essentially be the homes that we build.

  Speaker D [00:34:06]:

  And I'll say one thing what Nick's saying, personal branding is permanent job. So. Right. And so I think for like Nick and Nick and I are really good friends. We've known charter for a long time. As you go through the lulls of construction and, you know, you've had consistent flow and opportunities that have built your brand because that personal branding plays in as builders and everything else you're doing.

  Mark Williams [00:34:26]:

  Tyler boat.

  Nick Schiffer [00:34:27]:

  Oh, I was just going to add because I was talking to someone about this on the bus too, who's like, I don't want to show up on camera and I don't want to be this person. And I worked through this with Jamie too because I think that was part of my time where, you know, I was like, dude, you gotta show up on camera. Like, you have to do this. But that is not my husband. But I was like trying to push him to do all this stuff. And then finally when I was like, no, that is not him. Like, why am I trying to push him to be something that he's not? But now it's like, we get better engagement, we do all these things, but he's showing up in a way that's true to him and true to himself. So when you're thinking about that for you and your brand, if you don't want to be on camera, that's okay.

  Nick Schiffer [00:35:00]:

  But figure out like what you can film, what you can document. You don't need to be talking to it, but try to show up as who you want to be for your brand, or find that person who you want possibly to be, like, your brand spokesperson that can come on and hire them, someone on your team, and then they can talk to, like, who else is on your team? What else is going on? So I don't think it always has to be you either.

  Speaker E [00:35:22]:

  Let's have Jamie come up and give a few words.

  Mark Williams [00:35:28]:

  I think he just ran out the back door.

  Speaker E [00:35:30]:

  I actually haven't seen him since I walked in. He's hiding somewhere.

  Mark Williams [00:35:36]:

  Tyler, one of the questions I have that I think is in somewhat similar fashion to this question is basically about being in a niche. You know, I feel like you work with a niche.

  Speaker E [00:35:46]:

  Niche, niche.

  Mark Williams [00:35:48]:

  It's niche. That's why you have friends to help correct you. So talk to us a little bit about your niche and what you do, but you have to say niche like that.

  Speaker E [00:36:00]:

  I'm gonna leave that word out. So from the get go, I just. I knew where I wanted my business to be and what my ideal customer was, and I just found it easier to focus on one thing. And it's funny because Nick sent me something last night about this, where it's just instead of trying to hit the entire market, it's much easier to focus all of my efforts on one specific spot in the market. It's easier for me to be profitable there, for me to sell those job types, for me to create systems and processes for those. Niche? Niche. I think it's niche. Niche.

  Speaker D [00:36:38]:

  I don't know.

  Speaker C [00:36:38]:

  Raise your hand if it's niche.

  Speaker E [00:36:39]:

  Depends on where you're from. I think it's niche. In Canada. We're close to Canada now, so I've just. Even my branding and the work that I've wanted to put out, I've always just tried to differentiate or find that small customer base that was willing to support the work that I wanted to do. And it just. It seemed to make my life a lot easier. It made the numbers easier to dissect and analyze.

  Speaker E [00:37:10]:

  So from day one, it was just always about, what can I do for this small market that other people cannot do? And creating a business where it's basically, if you want this, you have to come to me. And not everyone wants that, but that's okay. But the customers who do want what I do are more than likely to come play by my rules.

  Mark Williams [00:37:30]:

  How early on did you know that you wanted to really focus down like that?

  Speaker E [00:37:35]:

  Pretty early. I just didn't know how to actually do that. And it's the same thing, like, Nick said, you're slow, and then you take jobs that don't fit with what you want to be doing. So it took a few years. Like, I always understood that was where I wanted to be, but I didn't really understand how to get there. It was more so, like, I'll put the work out, and it'll eventually get me to the point where I need to be, where I realized after the fact that it needs to be a lot more intentional than that.

  Mark Williams [00:38:06]:

  That's a pretty good answer in terms of legacy. One of the questions was, how do we think about legacy? And does anyone up here think about legacy every day?

  Speaker E [00:38:17]:

  Do you really? Do you?

  Speaker D [00:38:19]:

  I do.

  Nick Schiffer [00:38:20]:

  I do.

  Speaker E [00:38:20]:

  I do not.

  Nick Schiffer [00:38:21]:

  You don't. Tyler, you come from any concerns you would come across to me as really. Yeah.

  Speaker E [00:38:28]:

  Like, I'm gonna leave a legacy behind.

  Nick Schiffer [00:38:30]:

  Well, like, you're a deep thinker, so I would think that you would think.

  Speaker D [00:38:32]:

  About legacy, but I appreciate the sentiment.

  Nick Schiffer [00:38:38]:

  And you have kids. I don't know. Well, I would say Mercedes is standing right there, and she once told me, like, create a home that you love, and your life will launch off it. And I'm like, I truly believe that that's what we're doing in clients homes. And so it's like, that's the legacy that I want to create for construction of style within clients homes and, like, what they're creating for all their families and friends. And I don't want to just be, like, hired for help and, you know, we're the hired help and a job and, like, see you later.

  Mark Williams [00:39:05]:

  But, yeah, I mean, what about, you know, what about your charity? I mean, I think, you know, your nonprofit. I mean, to me, that's a huge legacy piece.

  Nick Schiffer [00:39:14]:

  Yeah, that's true. So we have a nonprofit called resumes to reform that gives a voice to those who deserve a second chance. So I think we all make mistakes here, and. Yeah, and so that's something that we're doing, too, to keep a legacy going.

  Speaker E [00:39:28]:

  And now I sound like an ass.

  Speaker D [00:39:33]:

  You kind of set yourself up, Tyler.

  Mark Williams [00:39:37]:

  We're selling eggs in the back. $10 a dozen if you want a hag. Tyler, at the end of this dumb.

  Speaker D [00:39:43]:

  Idea, whether he admits it or not, he's leaving a legacy. So you just kind of do. I would say probably the best answer to that. There was a mentor of mine, and I think I shared this when I did my kind of four year anniversary podcast. But those that didn't hear it, when I was 20 years old, there was a mentor, and he said his goal in life was to make everything better because he was there. And really, the point was he was kind of speaking about, you know, interactions he'd have with other people, interactions with his family, with his employees. Just in general, everywhere he went, he was trying to make a mindful impact of that. And I remember he finished speaking and we went to the restroom afterwards, and everyone's washing their hands, right? And I see him grab some paper towels and he's like, cleaning the sink.

  Speaker D [00:40:31]:

  And I'd watched him for a long time, and even in the littles details, he would do that, just little things. He'd pick up pieces, the trash. And I think that had an impact on me where maybe I'm not thinking about legacy every day, but ideally for me, I would hope that everyone that's interacted with me has had some sort of positive experience, or hopefully I've shared something of value to them because so many have shared value with me. Right. And for my kids, five daughters, right out of six kids, I'm hoping that I'm leaving a good legacy for them. The reason we're doing the summit podcast, I think just. I think that's just the goal, is that if each of us can do just a little bit more, I mean, there's a lot of good things that could happen.

  Nick Schiffer [00:41:13]:

  Make the world a better place, one action at a time.

  Speaker E [00:41:17]:

  Keep rubbing it in.

  Mark Williams [00:41:21]:

  I mean, I think you can think of legacy a lot of different ways. I mean, I think the way the question was framed was such that, you know, do you want your work to be a legacy? But I think, you know, your actions are a legacy. I think we leave a legacy regardless of whether we plan to or not. I think if you have an impact on other people's lives, I mean, you impact people's lives all the time, you.

  Speaker D [00:41:39]:

  Know, but mark, to that point, I think that's a good point. I mean, all of us are trying to up our brand, right? And ideally there is value. I mean, one of the things when, if you just speak monetarily or like, business wise, focusing on that legacy, ideally we do want aft to be a brand. If people have an aft house and it goes on the MLS, it'll sell more because they understand the brand we built. And so there is a legacy, like of craftsmanship, of detail, of process, even bigger than just kind of a. Kind of a global theory.

  Speaker C [00:42:12]:

  I think craftsmanship is something that we've lost when we talk about product, and it's a big reason why we've chosen to do this. 45 White Oak projects Legacy builder that is, a product that we're taking on paper would be considered a huge risk to prove a concept that says there's a clientele and there's a person or people out there that would appreciate a better product. And that might just be from a design perspective. But if you can do that from a design perspective, a quality perspective, a consciousness of material, materials, and through and through, and truly build without compromise, I believe, as I should, that there is a buyer for that. And I think that that can be said from something as large as an entire home, you know, all the way down to the individual tasks that it takes to get done.

  Speaker D [00:43:09]:

  And I love that you're doing that, Nick, and here's why. Because I do love the nick. I do. And I want this to be. And the reason being, I'm in Phoenix. And Phoenix, there's a huge investor market. And I don't do specs. I haven't done any investments.

  Speaker D [00:43:24]:

  I'll build a suit and often get asked this. And the reason, you know, we, a lot of us maybe have traveled and you see these amazing buildings that have stood the test of time in other countries, right? And in Phoenix, there's a lot of builds and builders that build. You know, I'm trying to think how to say this, but they're not good. They're fast, they're the cheapest for the best margin they can make, and they're selling a client for a high dollar, something that's built extremely poorly with poor product, because it all becomes money. And I think that's one of the most frustrating things as a builder that really appreciates craftsmanship. And I know that's why Nick is doing this spec, to show that you can build a good product and the clients will want it because they understand the thought and products behind it, instead of just buying something so the investor and builder can have a huge margin.

  Mark Williams [00:44:17]:

  What is one thing, Tyler, do you think, that you would like? If you could change one thing about the building industry, what would it be?

  Speaker E [00:44:25]:

  There's a lot of things that I would change, but the biggest, like when I started my business, it was right after college. And I just said that I wanted to work hard and I wanted to get compensated fairly. And I think that there's not necessarily everyone here. I think that we've gauged our businesses enough to help move them forward. But I think that there's a lot of people in the trades, a lot of owner operators, smaller businesses, subcontractors, who just. They're not highly valued in, like, the entire building ecosystem. And I would love for people who work in the trades or work with their hands, or whether they have a company of 1234, for them to be able to make money and be paid properly and not have to go out and take a job and worry if they're actually going to get paid adequately or if they're going to make money or not. So I think the biggest thing with our industry is just, I don't feel that our clients and the public value what we do enough to pay a premium for people to work with their hands.

  Mark Williams [00:45:38]:

  Nick, just because I'm thinking about. Tell us a little bit about your time in Switzerland and some of your observations along that line, because that's when he's talking. I'm just thinking about your experience. And I've used what you've said many, many times to try to explain to my trade partners and clientele of why paying them a higher rate is why we need to do it. Can you speak a little to that?

  Speaker C [00:45:57]:

  Yeah. And I mean, Switzerland specifically, the trades are, I'll use the word respected just from simplicity's sake. But they're respected the same as any other career, and they're also treated the same. You go through the schooling the same way. It's intensive schooling. It's an investment. It's not something that you're necessarily thrown into and just figure out. And, you know, we're in a market that not many of us in this room, but that we can oftentimes compete with a market of people that are thrown into it and figure it out and ultimately drive the low cost and the bad product that we are constantly compared against.

  Speaker C [00:46:39]:

  So I think that what I saw there, and I see in other countries, is that it's quality of craftsmanship and. And the careers that are involved in that craftsmanship are just respected at a higher level, and they're not as driven by how big can I build this home for? How little amount of money to ultimately get what I need? And a real quick story on that. I did a project a few years ago, and it was an $8 million home that I found out after I told him it was $8 million, that his budget was 3 million, and that was my fault, and it was. And he said, you know, I'm gonna consider it. And he called me and he said, hey, I dug into you. I see your portfolio. You are like an artist of a builder. I just don't value that.

  Speaker C [00:47:31]:

  And I said, okay. He goes, I would rather build the same house. Shittier, sorry, for $3 million, because I would rather. I just want the space. I don't care about the quality. And I appreciated him being upfront about that. But that is what we are facing, is that he's going to find someone that is probably going to be able to build it for $3 million very poorly. And maybe he's only in it for a year or two years and he gets what he needs.

  Mark Williams [00:47:57]:

  Good.

  Speaker C [00:47:57]:

  Bless you. And he gets what he needs, and it gets passed on, and now it's someone else's problem. And not to mention reality of the financial structure of building something for $3 million. That should be eight. You know, you're talking about hundreds of people that are involved in building that house that are often taken advantage of, whether it's poor wages, no payment, so on and so forth.

  Mark Williams [00:48:23]:

  It's funny because I use it actually as a selling point in terms of, like, I appreciate when people are upfront and honest about their budget, and they'll say, I want to do that less. I'm like, well, you. I can't pay my painter to do a really crappy job and charge you less, or I can't have my cabinet guy just make all your cabinets hang at a 45 degree angle. They kind of laugh. They sort of get it. And I think you're really just explaining your value proposition. And if it lines up with them, great. And if it doesn't, that's okay, too.

  Mark Williams [00:48:50]:

  Yeah. What would you say? This is kind of a little bit off script, but it's coming to me now. How would you describe what you. You always talk about identifying your ideal client. What are some red flags to each one of you when you're interviewing clients?

  Nick Schiffer [00:49:07]:

  Do I have one? Do you already know my answer? Oh, gosh, I don't know.

  Speaker C [00:49:14]:

  Do I have an answer? Yes, you do. Yeah. I mean, red flags for interviewing clients. I think there's a lot. I think the obvious ones are when they come to the table, when they're trying to get something for less and not understanding the process in which you build. Or they're questioning, like what? Well, things like supervision. We get question on. It's like, well, why do.

  Speaker C [00:49:35]:

  I don't want you to have a full time super on the job site? I said, well, you've seen our portfolio of work, and in order to accomplish that, I need someone here every single day pushing the trades along. So you have to trust our process. I mean, the other obvious ones are, can I buy XYZ? Because I get a discount on it. To me, that's oftentimes an orange flag. It really depends on the situation. But it's when they start really trying to pick it apart like an a la carte menu. Because we're very like, our estimate when we sit down with a client has literally 1000 line items because we want full transparency because ultimately it's easier to explain, hey, $8 million is made up of a bunch of little numbers so we can look at those individually. And if we have to make change 10% of this job, you know, we do that across a thousand line items, it's a lot easier.

  Speaker C [00:50:24]:

  But when they start removing things because they want to essentially manage the project and they just want our execution red flag.

  Nick Schiffer [00:50:33]:

  I know my one now. So mine's always when we go to a job site and if they have a significant other or a partner, we're always paying attention. Or me and Jamie are like how they treat one another. So how they talk to their husband, how they talk to their wife, how they talk to their partner or whomever it is in the room, maybe it's their kids. But the second they talk to them, degrading or they're not listening or they talk over to each other. This just happened a couple weeks ago. And Jamie and I walked out, got in the car and looked at each other. We're like, we gotta go.

  Speaker C [00:51:04]:

  I would second that. That is a huge one.

  Nick Schiffer [00:51:06]:

  And even if it's just slightly, I'm like, nope.

  Speaker C [00:51:09]:

  And to, sorry to add on, like another orange flag would be if one of them doesn't want to be involved in the process. And, you know, because I had one where it was, my wife will handle. My wife will handle it. We went to contract, signed the contract, got a deposit, excavator showed up on the job site and the husband called me and literally canceled the job. And I was like, what? And he goes, I didn't realize how much the house was. We're not paying that much for the house. I was like, you, I'll tell that story tomorrow. I kept their deposit.

  Mark Williams [00:51:45]:

  Tyler. One of my orange flags often is on a remodel if they're, if they just demand that they stay there. Because I know that as I'm going into the remodel space, it is so challenging. And I, you know, we actually remodeled our own home. Well, my wife was a expecting our third during COVID I'm like, take it from me, you don't want to live in your house while we remodel. Do you allow your clientele to live in their home and walk us through how, you know, when it's okay and when it's not. Okay.

  Speaker E [00:52:16]:

  Yeah. So I would say that I specialize in more live in remodels. The scope of work has to be conducive to that. Obviously, it can't be a full gut, and we're like, oh, we'll not do this half the house. But for me, it's do what you have to do to make this a good experience for them. And then that sells more of that type of job for me. And if they're willing to pay to live in the house and the cost associated with that, is it a better investment than them getting out? In a perfect world, everyone moves out of a house. But where I live and the population density and the amount of rentals and where people live in towns, like, oftentimes we are renovating with them in the house and it's making it a good experience for them.

  Speaker E [00:53:04]:

  So I do try and do that as much as possible, and that's my market, and there's ways to do that, but that's just another way that I've always differentiated myself with. Site protection, cleanliness processes, people who are on my jobs to sell more work like that to other people.

  Mark Williams [00:53:21]:

  I mean, I've heard you talk about it, and anyone who hasn't listened to Tyler talk about the amount of time and effort. And really you have to remember you talking one time, explain to your clients why you had to charge them for it. It's super. I think that goes back to clear communication and pre construction. And now you've turned it into a selling point.

  Speaker E [00:53:39]:

  Yeah, and it comes down like it's. I did it for free for a long time to invest in my business to get to the point that I could charge for it. Unfortunately, that's just the way that it had to go. But at this point now, it's when a customer gets a hold of me and you're talking about the red flags and things that customers can say or not say that ensure that they're a good fit. Like, one of the things is when somebody gets a hold of me, how did you find out about me? How do you know about my company? Because a lot of times it's just, hey, we're looking to get an estimate to do this. And at that point, I asked them, hey, how did you find out about us? Because if you don't know that we do all of that. I just have such a small percentage of landing that job, and I'd rather not spend my time entertaining that lead. So it all plays part of the bigger picture as far as vetting customers, finding out who customers are and understanding what we're good at and what we specialize in.

  Speaker E [00:54:37]:

  But yeah, that's part of something that I charge for now. It's broken out as a line item at the beginning of a job, maintaining it during the job and then breaking it down after the job.

  Mark Williams [00:54:48]:

  If you could go back to the beginning, Brad, what would you change as an entrepreneur? What would you do differently?

  Speaker D [00:54:57]:

  Investing in my business in this sense that I think for the longest time a lot of us make our own mistakes without networking and being here. There's a lot of other builders and professionals. And so I took too long networking with other builders, networking with architects, working with vendor partners. And really this goes back to, I mean, we've spoken about this a lot tonight, but understanding my business. And so had I understood adequately how to charge for a project the value I'm bringing. And there are levels right when I first started, even though I had a lot of experience before I started aft, there's no doubt I couldn't go in and, and get this signature project and charge whatever, but at least I could have understood more of how to format the project and set better expectations and really without making all the mistakes yourself. That's only going to happen as you network and understand mistakes others have made.

  Mark Williams [00:55:45]:

  How about you, Tyler? If you could go back, what would you do differently?

  Speaker E [00:55:48]:

  I probably, no, I won't say that. I was going to say maybe a different industry, but everyone's paying here too, to be here to support that. I think that, like, to simply put it, I realized too late that if you are not making money, like you don't have a viable business, if you guys are struggling month to month, it's probably not that your rate's wrong, that you're not capturing the hours like your business, whether it's your market, your rate, your employees, you don't have a business that's viable. You can't cheat the numbers. You can't put the sweat equity into it for years and years and years. If the numbers don't make sense, you have to make a major change. And I didn't like for a long time it was always, you're going to get here, you know, I need to make this adjustment, that adjustment. And I just realized that personally I was not getting paid for a lot of work that I was putting in place.

  Speaker E [00:56:43]:

  And my business, like, was not a viable business. It wasn't a profitable business. It looked like it by the number at the end of the year when I was dividing it by 2000 hours. But realistically, I was putting 4000 hours into that business. And I think if I would have just been let my push my ego aside and realized that like I was making pennies I would have made a lot more changes in my business early on.

  Mark Williams [00:57:08]:

  What about you, Nick? What would you change?

  Speaker C [00:57:11]:

  I'll pair off both of them. I think that I would have spent more time and effort in investing into education and knowledge early on and spent more time on the finances. I think that I talked about this a lot, but early on it was all that. It was all sweat equity. It was all, if I had money in the bank, I would take that money and put it into the project to make the project cooler so I could market it to the next tier of client. And I kept doing this over and over. I just had a conversation with Tyler about this, is that I've realized that I haven't stopped doing that. And, you know, ten years ago or eight years ago I would have said where I am today is where I wanted to end up.

  Speaker C [00:57:49]:

  And I think that, you know, in a lot of ways this is a fault of mine where I constantly move the goalpost. You know, we'll finish white Oak, we'll sell it, we'll break records. It will be, you know, the most amazing home. And then I'd be like, all right, let's, let's do a bigger one. Let's take more risk. Let's, let's, let's spend $3 million more than I'm supposed to. And I think that that's the challenge. But for me to go back, I would have spent more time in educating and understanding those numbers.

  Speaker C [00:58:19]:

  So as I do this through my career, I'm doing it with more comfort and not having so many of those peaks and valleys that we all experience.

  Speaker D [00:58:30]:

  And really to that point, I mean, Tyler hit that one. He said you're spending 4000 hours to really understand your value. But, and Nick hit this is same as me. I think I understand it now. But early enough, I didn't spend enough time understanding the balance sheet, the income statement, p and l, cost of goods sold. There's so many variables that WiP is a big thing. If you understand Wip how you can leverage that. But as a business owner, you have to really be dialed into financials and have a good team.

  Speaker D [00:58:57]:

  And if you understand that then you can, you know, now turn that into a profitable and viable business. As Tyler mentioned.

  Mark Williams [00:59:04]:

  I think it transitions to the next question which is, you know, when you first start, you're scrappy. You pick everything and everything and, you know, it's kind of like, hey, beggars can't be choosy. So you do projects that don't align with your goals. And maybe early on, you don't even know what your goals are, so you kind of just take everything. At what point in your careers did you realize what you were, what your brand was, what you wanted to be? And then how do you transition out of. I'll do anything to, hey, this is kind of my. My niche. Nick, why don't you go on this one?

  Speaker C [00:59:35]:

  My niche. I don't know if you necessarily have to have a point in time where you stop taking on those other projects because I've went in and out of that. I said that earlier, is like, we get idealistic with our projects scope or the type of projects that we want to do, but we have a project right now that came across our plate and, you know, I threw a number at it and they're like, yeah, we just want you to do it because we know you'll execute on it. It's not something we'll photograph. It's not something that we're, you know, going to document because it's just not our product. But we can still generate revenue, and it also gives us the opportunity to put new people in place to learn our process on something that is less complicated, like, hey, run this project. Run through this so you can understand our process before we throw you into something that is far more demanding. And I think that, you know, some of my mentors, especially recently, have talked about that and said that how that could be what generates the profit and allows me to do these pet projects on the side as these, you know, kind of the hopes and dreams of 45 white oak in developing a product, but have something that is more of a market where there's a bigger demand there and also a demand to do it well.

  Speaker C [01:00:53]:

  And it doesn't mean that we're staffing it the same. We're adjusting the way we supervise it because we don't need full time supervision. So it is. It's a change. And recently has got me thinking that is that another business or is it a different brand? But I think ultimately, my point is that you don't have to move away from that, especially if it's something that is profitable and good for the business. If it's peeling you away from your goal or it's hurting you from growing and doing what you want to do, that's a different story. And then I think then you take that more niche approach and niche down. It sounds better.

  Nick Schiffer [01:01:39]:

  Brad doesn't find this niche funny.

  Speaker D [01:01:41]:

  No, it was locked away. To Nick's point. It's interesting. I think early on in our career, I was obsessed with the marketing side, too. Like, a lot of them are up here. And so I was always marketing to what we were going to be doing or to the ideal clients as opposed to some of the stuff we were doing and what I mean by that. I remember early on, I was doing a project and we did, like, a backsplash and replaced, like, the flooring just in the kitchen. Really small job.

  Speaker D [01:02:08]:

  And the client tells me they're like, brad, you should advertise this all over Instagram because people don't know you'll do this. I'm like, no, I don't want anyone to know. I'm doing this because I want to build a custom home with a lazy river. Like, it's like, not even in the same ballpark and a backsplash. And so I was always marketing. And the funny story, when Paul, who's here, when I remember hiring Paul, and Paul's been with us about six years, I remember he showed up. He's all, this is it aft, I think at the time. I don't know where probably nine people, maybe eight of us at the time.

  Speaker D [01:02:40]:

  Paul can answer that. But we always portrayed that we were bigger than we were, even though we were working on systems and processes at the time. And to Nixon Point, there are projects that in Phoenix, you know, we had a project that the client won, this super tuscan house. And I'm like, well, there's about 20,000 of these for sale that you could go find. And so we did it. It's a great client. They're coming from California and a great project. But to your point, we didn't market it.

  Speaker D [01:03:05]:

  I didn't. No one probably saw that we did it. We didn't do a ton of social media because it didn't really fit kind of what we're pushing as a marketing strategy.

  Nick Schiffer [01:03:15]:

  Well, I'd add on to that, too, like, because with me and Jamie in the beginning, like, he. Both of us started, you know, taking our business from the ground up. And, like, we were taught, like, debt is bad, so we would just take any job we could get. And this actually kind of bit us in the butt a couple of years ago that we're still recovering from. But with all that to be said, like, one thing that I'm learning, because being surrounded by you guys who have mentored and coached us, too, is just like, it's okay to say no to something and then go to the bank to. To ask them. Like, this is what I need to have to float my company and my team just for the next two months. Like, that's okay, because then that next project's gonna come where you're actually gonna, like, make double the money, and you won't take that project.

  Nick Schiffer [01:03:53]:

  That will actually set you backwards five years.

  Mark Williams [01:03:58]:

  This next question is a good one. It's about architecture, and I think it is good for all industries, because whether you're a builder trying to work with architects, or whether you're an interior designer trying to work with. With builders or with architects, or in this case, the question is, really, how does a young architectural firm get to work with high end builders like yourselves? What is the approach? They're struggling making inroads with a very established market. And because there is so many talented architects in this particular town, Minneapolis in particular, how do they sort of break into the old guard?

  Speaker C [01:04:35]:

  I think this question can also be on the builder side, where it's, how does a builder go and approach an established architecture firm? How do we work with them? I have this list in my computer of outreach, and I do this monthly check in with every architect I want to work with, and it's oftentimes challenging. Oh, we've been working with these ten builders for the last 40 years, so maybe we'll give you a shitty job, and you can prove it, and then maybe we'll continue. Consider it. I just had this conversation a couple minutes ago, and I've had it before, is that, you know, that's one approach, and you can potentially break into that. You know, I've successfully done that by bringing them a job. I said, hey, here's a job that, you know, doesn't have an architect. I'd love to work with you guys on it. And then, quite literally, we had three additional projects in our inbox the next morning from them saying, hey, you should look at these as well.

  Speaker C [01:05:26]:

  So it opened the door. But I. But I think there's a lot of value in. In partnering with people that are at a similar point in their career. You know, Vincent, who is the architect on White Oak, is at a very similar point in his career. We are, you know, roughly ten years into our business, and we want the same things, and we're striving to get to the same place. And I realized that, wait, why don't we do this together? I'm trying to reach to the guys that have been doing it for 40, 50 years, and they're giving me nothing. Where you're you know, you're early in your career and we're equals.

  Speaker C [01:06:02]:

  So if we band together and build together, there's going to be way more value when, when it is 40 years from now, we're going to have a monster of a relationship. So I think that, you know, from the architect side or the builder side, I think there's a lot of value in finding equals and I think there's a lot more value. I don't think that you take your foot off the gas with the bigger, more established firms because I think that you'll always want that. But I think that more effort can go into working with someone that is considered an equal.

  Mark Williams [01:06:35]:

  Brad? Oh yeah, I know. It's time.

  Speaker C [01:06:38]:

  We're doing pretty good.

  Mark Williams [01:06:41]:

  We haven't hit our q and a time. Four more minutes. We only have two more questions, by the way.

  Speaker E [01:06:44]:

  Really? I think you dropped one of these.

  Mark Williams [01:06:50]:

  I want to give Brad an opportunity to ask this because I would imagine, I mean, you have a massive profile across the US. I have to imagine a lot of architects reach out to you to try to be, because our clients, when they're coming to you, I assume you're introducing a lot of them to the architects. How do you navigate that as a builder?

  Speaker D [01:07:06]:

  The funny thing is I'll put myself seven years ago, Brad, I would call every architect and designer in town and no one would call me back. None of them. And I would leave messages. I'd see them at networking events and I was a nobody. And that's partly why I started social media, is that Nick's strategy is really good, that ideally you get to the point where a client is calling you and you bring a project to them. That's a game changer, right? That's low hanging fruit that you can bring them in and that's going to change it. The strategy I took was like, okay, I'm going to start as a lot of, you know, I'm obsessed with LinkedIn. So like, I post on LinkedIn every day.

  Speaker D [01:07:41]:

  So I went on, you know, like eight years ago and I connected with every executive, realtor, architect, designer, anybody in Phoenix, everybody. I didn't dm them. I just like spammed them and said, add a friend. Right. And the funny thing is these same architects and designers, after a year I posted every day site cleanliness. You know, systems, we're doing value propositions. I was essentially trying to showcase how we operate at aft to differentiate ourselves from anyone else. And two architects specifically called me within a week of each other.

  Speaker D [01:08:16]:

  And I remember that one of them specifically said, brad, if I see your face one more time, I LinkedIn. Like, I don't know why you're always at the top of my LinkedIn, but let's do lunch. And we went to lunch and I helped him with his social media, specifically LinkedIn. And now we have four projects together. And so actually more than that, I think we're at like our 7th project. And so I think there's just other ways that it's really hard to just get in and spam someone right away. I found a lot of value that I would follow people and I would just comment. So these architects, yeah, he would see my face only because I'm commenting on every post.

  Speaker D [01:08:50]:

  He would put, I would like it, but I would never dm and say, hey, call me. It was just eventually that door opened where he contacted me.

  Mark Williams [01:08:59]:

  Maybe we'll end on that. For this portion, we've got about 1015 minutes of open mic Q and A.

  Speaker D [01:09:05]:

  Right now where I'm at, I'm belt on trying to get into the subs, but I'm doing really one off custom things that the sub pool that I have to work with. They've never seen any of this type of sub stuff.

  Speaker C [01:09:18]:

  How do you communicate that to make.

  Mark Williams [01:09:21]:

  Sure that they execute at the level.

  Speaker D [01:09:23]:

  That you want to execute that job at?

  Speaker C [01:09:26]:

  I mean, simply put, I think it's communication and setting that expectation upfront. You know, when I think about new products or new ways about doing things, you know, I'm oftentimes coming to them with, you know, kind of my tail between my legs in the sense of like, hey, I saw this thing, or I'd really like to do this, or do you have any idea how to accomplish this detail? Or have you ever worked with this product and have a conversation about it? I'm definitely someone that doesn't necessarily take no for an answer. And I will try to come from a different angle and say, well, wouldn't it be cool if we used it? So I think that it's a matter of just being upfront and ultimately sharing what the vision is. I'll talk kind of holistically. It's a big reason why we render all of our projects. Because what I found is that when my electrician sees what we're trying to accomplish, or anyone that any of the trades are seeing what we're trying to accomplish, they have a completely different outlook on it. Great example, like the foundation we just placed to them, it's a concrete wall. And we were going through the drawings and I skipped past the rendering, they were.

  Speaker C [01:10:38]:

  What's that? I went back, I'm like, this is the house. And they're like, holy shit, this is what this is. Now I understand what we're trying to accomplish here. So I think it's, you know, it's try to get them to understand what that end result is and what you're trying to get to and then work backwards from that.

  Mark Williams [01:10:57]:

  Hello.

  Nick Schiffer [01:10:59]:

  When you're working with your clients and.

  Speaker C [01:11:01]:

  Coming up with a budget what is.

  Nick Schiffer [01:11:02]:

  The first part of the project that they want to cut back on?

  Mark Williams [01:11:06]:

  That's a good question.

  Speaker C [01:11:07]:

  Countertops? No, I'm just kidding. Oh, dear. For those that can't see, they're from Cambria. That's professionally attacked.

  Nick Schiffer [01:11:23]:

  Well, I could. Yeah, I could start this one. Because I'm like. It kind of goes back to, like, your vibe attracts your tribe. And I think depending on what you're showcasing in your projects what you're constantly selling for us. Anyway, once we started showing, like, for example, our kitchen and someone just said this to us today, they're like, oh, my gosh, my wife now, like, we're redoing our kitchen or it's taking forever because we're trying to get to your kitchen. But I think once you start showcasing, like Brad said, like, be five years out ahead of where you know you want to be. But whatever you're showcasing that, like, for us, our clients will come to us and, you know, they're wanting Cambria and that's why we're putting Cambria in all of our homes.

  Nick Schiffer [01:12:02]:

  And then other people will be like, I don't understand how you can sell that. Like, that's something that they cut. And I'm like. Because they see it in every project. So I think it just goes back to what we're putting in, the product that we're putting in. And they see that. And then to just us educating them, like, an easy thing too. They'll.

  Nick Schiffer [01:12:18]:

  Katie and Jesse and I have this conversation all the time, or Katie because they do custom cabinets. But one of the things is, like, they want to cut back on their custom cabinetry and want to do prefab. And immediately I'll say, okay, well, just to show you, look at our kitchen and look at our prefab cabinets and how shitty they are and you'll be wanting to rip them out, but then you won't because you put a beautiful Cambria slab on it and then you don't know what to do. So being very truthful. That's true. That's a very true story.

  Speaker C [01:12:46]:

  Mark whispered this in my ear, but he's right. You know, it's oftentimes the first is our fee, and it's, you know, and that's usually the challenge. And right behind that, it's our general conditions, which is the way we supervise and manage the job, you know, in terms of negotiation through the rest of the things. You know, that those are all tangible things, items within the home. So in terms of them cutting back, it's in their mind, it's just looking at alternative selections. But, you know, is there a world that will manage the job differently or will take a haircut on the profit? Those are usually the first that are challenged.

  Nick Schiffer [01:13:26]:

  If logistics weren't a consideration, what would be your ideal client and project? Location.

  Speaker D [01:13:35]:

  I don't know about location, but I think the ideal client is someone that trusts you to, like, fulfill your scope of work and build a project and not micromanage you. I think no matter what level you are as a builder, you're still gonna have clients that feel they have to manage you. So I love clients that just trust the process. They listen to us, the architecture and design team. We have a good team between the three of us, and they let us run and let the process happen without having to go by every day.

  Nick Schiffer [01:14:02]:

  I'd say with that, too. Someone just challenged me with this recently. I think it's a business women's circle I'm in, but they're like, think about your best client you've ever had, and, like, write that down. Write down to, like, dial it in. Who they are, what they do as an occupation, how they treat their family, their hobbies, everything, and then really, like, hone in on that when new leads are coming in? I know that probably doesn't really answer your question, but I just did that with a recent client. I was like, this is the exact client I want. Like, we could go in there. We work with.

  Nick Schiffer [01:14:35]:

  Our clients are home all the time, and so it's like how that operation runs and how they treat us and how they let us come in and out of their home, all that.

  Speaker E [01:14:44]:

  I realistically want to work close to home. I don't want to travel for work. So something geographically close, and then it's the same thing. Like, my most valuable lead is when somebody comes to me and says, hey, I know who you are. We've seen what you do. How do we, like, what's the first step in either hiring you for a consultation or getting on your books to schedule a project rather than somebody where it's like, hey, looking to get an estimate for this. So my ideal customer is just somebody who actually knows who we are.

  Mark Williams [01:15:17]:

  I have an embarrassing story in this vein that I think is worth sharing. A couple years ago, there was a really high end architect, and this client came to me, was right down the street from my house. So I agree with Tyler. Proximity is really important to me, and I don't know if I had a couple extra cups of coffee. I know I'm a little excitable at times, and I. I was way over the top excited, and I was, like, showing him pictures of my family, and I was like, fanboy. I was just like, oh, I love this architect. This is amazing.

  Mark Williams [01:15:45]:

  I'm so excited to work. I mean, I was. I was out of control enthusiastic, which I know is hard to believe, Tyler, but. Yeah, right?

  Speaker E [01:15:51]:

  Even hearing it, I can barely believe it.

  Mark Williams [01:15:54]:

  I mean, even I knew I was out of control. When I went home, I told my wife, I'm like, I met this amazing couple. They never returned another call again, and I wanted.

  Speaker E [01:16:05]:

  How much worse did that make it, though? You kept calling them more. You're like the person when you're, like, you're a little bit too much, and you overcompensate to try and make it better.

  Mark Williams [01:16:15]:

  I went full nuclear. I walked by the house because they built it with this higher end builder, and every time I walk by it, I just kind of look at it and be like, man, if I had just kept it under control, you know, I mean, eventually my personality would have come out.

  Nick Schiffer [01:16:29]:

  But then they must have been your client.

  Mark Williams [01:16:32]:

  Yeah, maybe. Anyway, so that was my ideal client.

  Speaker D [01:16:36]:

  Question about homeowner and trade interaction. You know, we have a lot of homeowners that work from home, so we're doing a remodel and really good intentions that the guys on site will ask the homeowners, hey, how high do you want this light fixture to be hung? Or whatever the case is? And the homeowners get really upset because these guys show up, and they don't.

  Speaker E [01:16:59]:

  Even know what the heck they're supposed to do.

  Speaker D [01:17:01]:

  Who's managing this job anyways? I'll speak to that, because that does happen a lot on our projects. It'll never work setting expectation with clients, no matter how much you do it. So it's with our trade base. Like, they understand that for their paycheck, I pay them, right. So they need to make sure that they're running everything by us. And the example I'll give that, I even tell my subs. We had Paul's client. Paul, who's here with me.

  Speaker D [01:17:27]:

  His client goes to the landscaper and adds like $40,000 worth of stuff and the guy does it. I can't. I mean, I'm shocked because I've known landscape for a long time and then the client's not going to pay him and he comes to me, I'm like, what do you want me to do? You didn't call me. I had no idea. Now you're stuck on this bill because I get this invoice and I'm like, this was never approved. You know, we're documented. And so with our trades, we're very clear that, hey, communication, you just say, let me get with the GC, get with Brad, get with the super. That's the only way it's going, going to happen.

  Speaker D [01:17:56]:

  So. And it really is just to protect the subcontractor. So I believe I've heard it from all of you today on what we're dealing with as a business, as I should say as a whole, in construction, with labor, you know, the lack of quality of work. So I want to ask you again, me being Gen Z, how are you guys tailoring yourselves? And obviously you're giving back to the industry. What are you doing to prepare your employees and those who are going to continue your business lineage for being prepared for these newer generations that may not really understand what they're headed towards and, well, I should say, being entitled to work in the industry.

  Speaker C [01:18:44]:

  I think that, you know, as we look at the younger generation, there is this weird mindset of, like, a different workplace nowadays. I think that there's a lot of attention on that. There's also a tremendous amount of additional opportunity to make money. Like, there's a lot of different things that you can do to make money nowadays that just simply didn't exist five years ago. And I think that that is playing a big role in why we have less interest and less people in our industry to counteract that. I think that when we are involving people in the younger generation into the trades, it is being upfront and being direct with them. I think that Mike Rowe said this on a podcast and talked about hard work. Oftentimes we shy away from saying that it's hard work because we want them to come in and like, hey, it's, you know, it's a team mentality.

  Speaker C [01:19:45]:

  Like, the projects are amazing. You see them on social media. Everything's great when that's not the case. Like, this is physically demanding work and it's hard work. And we need to be more upfront about that. We also have to understand and appreciate what the younger generation can bring to the table in terms of their knowledge around technology, their knowledge around what the, what, what that generation is looking for. And I think about, you know, from a marketing perspective, you know, people ask, like, why are you posting on TikTok? It's like, well, because the kid that's on TikTok that's watching our content is eventually going to need to build a house. And, you know, and that might be a ten year funnel for that particular sale, but that, that's just the case.

  Speaker C [01:20:30]:

  That that's just the matter of fact. And it's the same thing with educators. What we're doing as builders and attracting them as someone that wants to work for us is that we're going to communicate how we're doing things, but we're going to take the information from the younger generation and understand that we're seeing this reduction in home size. People don't want as big of homes, a lot of reasons why it's more expensive, the rate, but the reality is people just don't value that as much and the generation will change. And I think that, you know, we, our generation, my parents generation, you know, we're starting to soften on that and not be so stuck in our ways. I think my parents generation, you know, is very much on the side of like, this is how we do it. This is the process based on my failures, this is how you're going to now do things. And for me, like, I think about my kids and that's not how I want to approach it.

  Speaker C [01:21:30]:

  I want to encourage them to be their own person and in a way take advantage of that in our industry.

  Mark Williams [01:21:41]:

  All right, from a builder and remodel.

  Speaker C [01:21:44]:

  Perspective, could you go back and maybe just describe to me the leap that.

  Mark Williams [01:21:48]:

  You took when maybe I'm the only.

  Speaker C [01:21:50]:

  One that's experienced this, but going from providing a free estimate to going from charging for a design concept and a construction bid, and what that was like.

  Speaker E [01:21:58]:

  For you, I can speak to my behalf. It was initially, it was like a stake in the game, skin in the game type of fee where it's like just to get rid of tire kickers or if it's $150, whatever it is, just to show up at somebody's house. And it got to a point when I started developing my systems, like, first off, it's really scary to do that because you're going to turn a ton of people off. But then you just have to realize that all those people who aren't willing to invest in you and your business can go to any other business and get what they want. So you have to change what you're doing. But then I realized I switched that from a skin in the game type of fee to actually having a little bit more money on that to cover a little bit of my time. And then I would roll that over to the job if they hired me. And then I realized that was also stupid.

  Speaker E [01:22:55]:

  So at the point I am now, it's like I'm going to look at it the same way that I look at a project where, how much time is it going to take me to go to this person's house, get my trade partners together, develop a scope, schedule, budget, and I'm going to work against that number. And that that fee is not refundable. It's not a deposit for the job. It doesn't get rolled over. Essentially, I'm creating a pre construction package that they can submit for permitting and if they want to bid it to whoever. And realistically, everyone has hired me at that point. But I started with just to get my confidence and build my systems and figure out how to navigate that conversation with customers. It was just a fee.

  Speaker E [01:23:37]:

  And then that fee turned into, okay, it's going to be a little more, and I'm going to roll that into the deposit. And then it turned into, once I got comfortable with that and realized just by doing it, the value that I was providing that, hey, here's my pre construction agreement. And we're budgeting x amount of hours towards it, and we're going to work towards that. If it's a kitchen designer involved, if there's an architect, whoever it is, I'm just working towards that. And again, that's. That's money that I'm keeping, essentially getting paid for it.

  Speaker D [01:24:05]:

  Just make sure you charge double the.

  Speaker C [01:24:07]:

  Concrete, you know, to add to that. And I think the most important part, someone dm me this morning about this exact question and saying, you know, how much? They asked me, how much do you charge for pre construction? Like, well, that's a loaded question. You know, we take a retainer and we bill our time against it, but the most everyone's quick to. I just want to charge for estimates, and you're going to be in the sea of everyone that's doing free estimates. How do you differentiate. It's providing the value and more importantly, communicating what that value is. And Tyler touched on it is that when someone retains us for pre construction, if they don't want us to build the house, that's completely fine. You have a budget, you have a schedule, you have the entire project worked out on paper.

  Speaker C [01:24:49]:

  And if you want to go and give it to your brother to build the house based on that, fine. It's my job during that process for you to fall in love with our process that that doesn't happen. And I think that's an important part, is that when we separated that this is a standalone service, people felt as though, okay, I understand it's a little bit more comfortable. And I'm not saying, hey, we just met, you're going to charge me all this money to price it. And I don't even know if I want to build with you. Like, it removes that entire.

  Nick Schiffer [01:25:15]:

  And I'd just quickly add, if you're just talking super, you know, minutiae, like for us in remodeling, like we started just by making sure that our automations for when they come to our website, they're filling out a form. We started with one form. Now I think we have about seven automation touch points that we don't even know that, you know, they're going through the filter. But so having a tool that does that vetting for you, because then once you are going out there, they probably are serious and they are going to hire you. So then that just removes all that, too. So you don't already have to have the conversation from the beginning of what you charge and you're already wasting time. So getting the right tool in place for that.

  Mark Williams [01:25:52]:

  Well, I think that probably sums up the evening. Hopefully you guys got a bunch of information you wanted, and hopefully you got a bunch of information you didn't wanted that you can now add to your repertoire. Thanks for listening to the Curious Builder podcast. If you like what you listen to, please give us a five star rating and write us a review really means a lot. It's a great way for us to just understand what you like about the podcast and what we can keep doing. So like and review. And please share with your friends and family. Find out more@curiousbuilderpodcast.com.

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