Episode 96 - Art, Wealth, and Strategy: How to Succeed Without a “Day Job”
Episode #96 | Drew Beson | Art, Wealth, and Strategy: How to Succeed Without a “Day Job”
In this episode of The Curious Builder, Mark Williams catches up with artist Drew Beson to chat about how he's shaking things up in the art biz, like leasing his awesome artwork for commercial spaces and teaming up with pros like restaurant guru Gavin Kaysen from Spoon and Stable. They dive into Drew's artistic journey, from his Minnesota roots to his cool new studio. It's a fun, laid-back convo about balancing passion with business smarts and making those important connections along the way.
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About Drew Beson
Enormous abstract paintings filled with vibrant colors and bold movement typify Drew Beson’s work. If it is too big to pick up, he feels he has succeeded. Many pieces are acrylic on panel, and look almost “juicy,” after receiving a final layer of hand poured resin. The consistency of honey when applied, the resin is blowtorched before curing to a glass like finish
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Mark D. Williams 00:00
Before we get started, if you've been tuning into the show for a while, you realize that I love wellness. I love celebrating business owners, and really want to celebrate their health, their wellness, so that they can operate in the businesses that they have support the families that they work so hard for, as well as their trade partners and their clients. And with that in mind, we are going to have a half day retreat at Lake minnewasha in Minnesota on january 24 from one o'clock to five o'clock, Dr Mel Krug is going to lead 60 people through somatic breath work in the lodge. Then we'll go down into the water. You're going to cold dip anywhere from 10 seconds to three minutes. Then you'll go into the sauna and then rinse and repeat. At the end, we're going to have a Mediterranean wood fire grill meal together as a community, and that's it. So if this is something that you want to do to kick off 25 center, your New Year's resolutions around some new objectives, new communities and challenge yourself. Sonic camp is for you all. The details can be found at curious builder podcast.com where we went over to your shop for a full day work together. And I got to see kind of all the sausages made. Got to see the resin pours. And we obviously speeded it up because, yeah, I was less concerned about hanging on a wall of the Smithsonian like the rest of your beautiful work, but it was more just like I want this to be, you know, practical, usable art that my kids can slide down. I suspect that you haven't done a lot of slides. I mean, how many pieces of work have you done where that or that's a
Drew Beson 01:17
one of one, only one slide in my my report, I today.
Mark D. Williams 01:26
In the case builder podcast, we had drew Beeson with Drew Beeson art. And Drew is a long time friend, and just amazing to hear him chat in in really just a deep way about his craft and the intentionality behind it. And while Drew is an artist, and a lot of what we're talking about is builders and architects and designers on the podcast, I feel like there's a lot to learn about the intentionality of our craft in this episode. And I really enjoyed sort of the kind of almost Zen state of, you know, looking at our business, our crafts, our running of a business, or whatever we're passionate about doing and creating through this lens. So this is a pretty deep dive in how we think about our businesses. Without further ado, here is Drew Beeson. Welcome to curious builder Podcast. I'm Mark Williams, your host today I'm joined by a very special guest, Drew Beeson. With drew Beeson art, long time friend and first time caller. Welcome to the studio.
Drew Beson 02:19
Drew Hey, thanks for having me, Mark. I
Mark D. Williams 02:23
feel like this is Christmas. Times I feel like this SNL special. We need a you know, we should have worn the ugly sweaters for this one. Well, you got the plaid? I do. I do have full on plaid. It was snowing pretty good today. Spent like, a solid hour shoveling before we got here. Yeah,
Drew Beson 02:35
you kind of got the brawny toilet. Was it toilet paper? No paper towel? I think either one. For
Mark D. Williams 02:40
those not in Minnesota, they're all scratching their heads right now, this has already gone off the rails, deviated. I wanted to bring you on. We interact a lot, and you are in the home space. You're a painter. You have an art studio. We've done a couple of projects together. We'll probably touch base on that a little bit. But as a solo protruder, you're a kind of a one man band. I really wanted. There's a lot of builders out there, a lot of trimmers, painters. We've had a lot of companies on that have a larger structure, and I wanted to have someone on that kind of does it all, and talk about scaling, not scaling, some of the choices we make. And we'll talk about that maybe in the middle, end of the episode, but in the beginning. Why don't we introduce you to the audience? Let's talk a little bit about your journey, how you got going, where you find yourself now. And we'll talk on the beginning half, more about drew Beeson art, and what you do and who you are. And we'll talk maybe more in the second half about operational business stuff that we can all apply to our own businesses.
Drew Beson 03:33
Well, from a literal perspective, I find myself in Excelsior, Minnesota, which is not far from my origin story. We had a snowy drive in today, and yeah, it's beautiful place. I think wielding a 6000 gross vehicle weight car through the snowy drifts on the way here reminded me of growing up. Originally as a kid, was from Bloomington, Minnesota. My dad bought a big ego house in Minnetonka, not far from here. So in third grade, we moved and I was kind of an artistic, creative, literary kid, and didn't quite know where I fit in with all that kind of stuff. I liked a lot of different things, which I think is kind of part of the curious thing, which you've made a name for. Basically, I was good at baseball and some art stuff, and I liked skiing, and I liked all kinds of different things when I was a kid. And just doing that, I went to college, thinking maybe I'd be in business. My I grew up in a family business, and after a couple of classes in the economics department, professor took me aside and said, terrible economics. You know, what did you like? What were you good at? And so I was taking our classes. I really enjoyed. It came really naturally, I think, to me, which which is helpful. And by doing that, I think the thing that's Goofy is sometimes we neglect. Affect the things that come naturally to us or we we've got skills that we don't really put a lot of weight or value in, and so sometimes we run away from those things. And so just to get some encouragement, whether it was to move from something or towards something, I ended up being a studio art major in college, which I don't think is necessary in order to be a professional artist. But at the time, that seemed to be a good place. I went to St Olaf down in Northfield, good place to go to grow up and figure some stuff out, make some friends and try some stuff, see what you're good at, you know. So
Mark D. Williams 05:34
I mean, what I like about the story already? And we talked a lot about, obviously, I've had a lot of husband and wife's on father sons. And as you ask, or one of my number one questions that I ask them is, do you think your kids will get into the business? And almost universally, they all say, we want them to be what they're passionate about. And I'm going with this is passion, like, I think what you're saying a little bit is like, when we gravitate towards some things, we either have some success with skill, or you can go a long way on that passion. And it's, I think it'd be easy to dismount it and say, Oh, I just really like that, but I should do something else, because there might be more value in business. My roommate in college, for instance, he wanted, he always wanted to be a dentist, and his dad really had his own business, really wanted to push him into being a business owner. So he went through college, got a finance degree, did insurance sales for Northwestern Mutual for a number of years, and after 10 years, he actually went back to school to be a dentist. That was his true passion. And now he just got out of the military, actually to because he had families like, how do I, you know, make this all work? But I guess my point is, is I love it when people follow their passion, and then how do you make it work? So, yeah,
Drew Beson 06:39
I think passion is kind of a double edged sword, and I'm still kind of thinking my way through, you know, encouraging people to to do things that they're specifically passionate about when there's not a, you know, pot of gold at the end of the rainbow kind of thing. We might touch a little bit more on it later. But as far as I think it's important to do what you like. I don't I would never encourage somebody to do things that they dislike, day in and day out for their life. Because life is short. You only get one run at it. The art thing is tricky. I would encourage people to go into it with their eyes wide open, to understand the economics of it, to understand the, you know, pitfalls, the challenges, how it fits in the kind of larger continuum of of work. I think that pursuing passion when it comes to to art is fantastic, whether you make a living doing it as sort of a whole nother thing. Well, that
Mark D. Williams 07:36
was the main we can talk a little bit more about how you got into it, but that was the you're one of the few artists that can that I've seen, and from my point of view, there's a stereotype, and it must exist for a reason, that a lot of artists can't be successful, or a lot of artists, they can't do what you just said, also make it their livelihood as well. It's hard to be an artist and a business owner. And I think a lot of people that listen to the podcast are entrepreneurs, right? It doesn't have to be just artistry. You could be a builder, an architect. Running a business is difficult, and to have a talent in two areas is not easy, and it's far more common. Like for myself, like I'm a So, so business person, but I'm a lot better business person than I am a builder, meaning, like, I can't go out and actually physically build you things. That's not my skill set. I remember you,
Drew Beson 08:20
you telling me that if you show up on a job site with a hammer and start swinging it, that things have gone off the rails. Yep, you
Mark D. Williams 08:28
should call the project manager. I'm ruining your house. And so, like, you kind of know what you are, right? And so what I'm sort of amazed at is, how have you been successful where your contemporaries have not?
Drew Beson 08:40
Well, success is a challenging word altogether, but we'll just take that for kind of what it Yeah. How
Mark D. Williams 08:46
are you reframe it? Because you write success has a ton of connotations. How have you been able to make a living? How long have you been doing it?
Drew Beson 08:53
Yeah, well, I'm at the point where I'm going to start taking years off of my CV. Since 2008 basically, I've had no other sources of revenue, income, no family.
Mark D. Williams 09:05
So that, to me, is success. You've run a business, yeah, for 16 years, yeah. As an artist,
Drew Beson 09:10
independent owner, operator, I like to say that this is also kind of loaded. People who are who say that they're an entrepreneur, I like to make the distinction that, to me, means that you start many businesses. I'll make the distinction that I am self employed, or that, you know, like I have a creative I'm I own a business, but in actuality, I basically own a job. Reason why I make this distinction is because if I quit showing up, checks would too. I have built in a couple of things, mostly just by being creative about how I structure financial arrangements with collectors, consumers, that kind of thing, where I'm able to continue to get paid a little, even if I don't show up to work that week or that month, but I have to keep producing. Thing, like I couldn't just lay back and just expect that things are going to keep going. I've mentioned
Mark D. Williams 10:06
that my eyes were only opened about a year ago in that concept that if you remove yourself, you have a job. Oh, sorry, if you remove yourself and the company doesn't exist, you have a job. If you can remove yourself and the company still produces, you have a business. In that aspect, I also have a job. It is something that I've built for 20 years, and I'd like to build, let's say, for another 20 I would like to change that. I would like to be able to scale the company and put people in the seats so that I could have a business. It's actually really hard, much harder than I would have thought
Drew Beson 10:38
it is. I think that if your goal is to build a business, and that business is going to exist without you, then that is a separate enterprise than owning a small business or running a business or having a something that you gain fulfillment from from working it. So, I mean, I like what I do, if I didn't like what I do, I would be doing something else. And in that case, my goal would not be to divorce myself from the business and, you know, leave it stranded and hope that it throws off some revenue. That's not interesting to me, I mean, I love the concept of mailbox money. You just go, Yeah, I'm just like sleeping through the days and doing whatever else and checks just keep showing up, almost like you've got to do something to turn it off rather than to turn it on. But for me, I'm a hands on person. One of the things that has in early days of our friendship, me showing up and helping load a truck. I think when you try and remove all the person in the business stuff, that something gets lost. And I love the idea of being able to use a virtual assistant, or get somebody to execute and be a doer on your behalf. But when it really comes down to it, I like doing things. I like learning things. I like trying things. I don't love doing all of the things. And I don't wouldn't love if all of those things were the things that I had do day in and day out. But the variety is part of what I enjoy, and so that's a big part. I think, in any kind of creative pursuit, if you go on, my goal is to be creative, or to create more than I consume. And I think that's a thing that I continue to measure. I want to be creative, and that doesn't outsource well. And for me, I don't really want to get rid of all those tasks. It'd be nice not to have to do what some website, goofy thing or whatever, but I might be the only person who knows the name of the art and the number that it's assigned with and how the spreadsheet works with updating, because I might just be naming that piece today. And so for me to telephone that and tell somebody, and then they type it in and spell it wrong, and then I have to double. It's just sometimes doing the thing is worthwhile in itself. The
Mark D. Williams 13:07
thing that I one of the things I wanted to touch on is the creative side, right? We've had architects on, we've had interior designers on, we've had a builder. I'm a builder. Like, there's creativity endeavors throughout that whole process, right? Building a home is very creative. And I was curious that a lot of things that you said resonate with me, like I'm a builder, because I like the creativity. I like the fact that it's constantly changing. I like the fact that there's a lot of new people that you're meeting. I love the hospitality side of interacting with people. I didn't realize that's what it was that I was attracted to, and now that I've tuned into that frequency, it's something that I'm trying to develop do a better job of. But you're right. People in early on my career, when I was doing it all, I sold myself against other people. So you could hire a company, because everything could be a marketing strategy. In my case, it was like, Hey, I'm the Swiss Army knife. I'm everything in one and that appeals to some people. Great. They he they do all of those things. And now, as I get a little bit older, my strategy is a little bit different. We have a team that can service you. You can pitch it however you want. It has to work for you. I'm curious, as it relates to other especially artistic in the sense that the way I use artistic businesses, painters and watercolors, and that that type of you're creating art for a home and you're off, you're often in the harm home space. We'll talk a little bit about how our two worlds collided and how they continue to collide, and how you're obviously in homes a lot, definitely towards the end, how you create there, but going back, digging a little bit deeper, how have you been able to live off of your income with this when I feel like so many artists, they have to do it as a side hobby or a side hustle, or it's just, I don't know that many artists that have been able to succeed.
Drew Beson 14:48
I don't either, I think,
Mark D. Williams 14:52
which is a real shame, sorry. The one thing I said is, because people love art, people feel a deep connection, and I don't think. Is new, right? And you would know better than I would, but the Renaissance, and there's very few famous artists that were wealthy during their life, am I wrong? That's totally true. And, like a lot, of them become
Drew Beson 15:08
rich for their dead. And that is true also, you know, historically, like, yeah. And a detail on that is, I think it's important for for if a person was an artist, and they say, well, it's just a shame that I'm not going to make any money at my art while I'm alive. It's going to be worth something when I'm dead. I like, I like to get a chuckle out of that with people, not, you know, at their expense, but the truth is that people who have made money from their art after their demise, they have had money during their life most often. So there are some people, you know, say, like a Van Gogh or whoever, that pour up until their death, and then, you know, they were celebrated because they're supremely talented. After the fact, people come to their senses and realize there's value in it. And they had, you know, unspoken genius or something, right? But, you know, somebody like Andy Warhol or whatever, these guys, Damien Hirst, they got factories of people that are making their artwork that they are then taking responsible for, responsibility for they they're doing this. And it's not nefarious. It's just scale, and because there's only so many hours in the day, there's only so much a person can do or create they're taking advantage of, and not in a bad way. They're manipulating the system, not in a bad way, to have their hands on the most important parts and to outsource or to have, you know, studio assistants and whoever be creating things or marketing their things or whatever for profit. And that's fine. It's just a different way of doing it. Most people who make a bunch of money want to make more money. It's just an addictive thing, and that does not disclude artists either. The question is, if you find satisfaction joy in the process or in the result? And I'm a process person, and I just have been I like to figure out things. I like to solve problems. My goal is not to solve a problem and then find a way to do it 1000 times. I mostly just get joy from solving it the first time, and then I get bored and want to do the next thing. So it's just that I whether it's an ADHD shiny thing, squirrel, whatever, I'm kind of okay with the idea that I'm a little bit of a wanderer when it comes to tasks. It's not great for projects at the house, but it's part of a creative pursuit, part of a creative lifestyle, part of the way that I'm have set up my life. And it's not ideal for, you know, a lot of people, but for me, it works really well, and I find satisfaction in those things. And most of my frustrations, life or otherwise, are in Me ratcheting back my willingness to take on a new project or pursuit, because it's the sound reasoning is, because I've already had 27 things open. I don't need to open another thing and try and pursue that, but there's a zillion things I have interest in, and that's part of being a person that's walking through life with curiosity.
Mark D. Williams 18:39
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Drew Beson 20:24
always been that there's been evolution, but there's a red thread a person could kind of track throughout the process. So right now, the things that I make, that I sell, the thing that people would collect or have in their home or office business, that kind of thing is mostly kind of mid to large, abstract artwork that looks either molecular or cosmic. Acrylic on panel or canvas, is usually how it's achieved. And then some of them have a hand poured resin finish, which gives them kind of this. It almost looks wet or juicy or something like that. It's very
Mark D. Williams 20:59
accurate. I Yeah, last summer. Was it last summer, two summers ago, that we did the slide project together. Last summer, last summer, time flies. I So we built during COVID. We built a play structure in my backyard, and I came to you and said, Hey, I want to surprise my kids. I don't want the slide to just be a piece of plywood that you slide down. I want it to be pretty psychedelic and awesome. So yeah, you were very generous with your time. And I think this could be a whole nother business venture, but basically, we and my sister happened to be in town, right? And so anyway, we went over to your shop for a full day work together. And I got to see kind of all the sausage was made. Got to see the resin pours. And we obviously speeded it up, because I was less concerned about hanging on a wall of the Smithsonian like the rest of your beautiful work, but it was more just like I want this to be, you know, practical, usable art that my kids can slide down. I suspect that you haven't done a lot of slides. I mean, how many pieces of work have
Drew Beson 21:51
you done? Where that that's a one of one. So one of one, only one slide in my my repertoire. I'll have to get a
Mark D. Williams 21:56
picture of that when we post this, because that was, that was, we had some great photos, but I, I really and a fun day. Oh, that was a blast. Yeah,
Drew Beson 22:03
I thought that was a cool thing. I like the challenge of being able to do something on more of a three dimensional whatever it also that challenge reminds me of how those obstacles then make it difficult to have a stranglehold on the quality or the process which I insist on. I'm a particular type of person. I want things of a really high quality. When I'm making them, I consume all kinds of crap, I'm sure, but but as far as things that like come out of my shop or things that I make, really want them to be good. I really want them to be as Zen and the odor Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance talks about quality a lot. I really want the quality be high, and it's a difficult thing to define and describe, but, but it's just important to be that the resin looks right, and the balance of the painting is good, and the materials are superior to kind of anything else you can get or buy or do watching
Mark D. Williams 22:59
you do it. You know, it's amazing, because you see on Instagram or YouTube or wherever you're watching artists do their work, you know, they make, you know, I suppose that's anything. It's like poetry in motion. It's sort of than watching a baseball player throw 102 mile or fastball, but yeah, you can see the motion. But like, you know, that's a special, unique talent to be able to do that. Or a lot of tennis, Roger Federer makes it look graceful. Watching you paint and watching you do your work is like when I was trying to do it, like I felt, I felt like a platypus with big flippers walking through wet concrete, just messing it all up. And you were just like, you know, the term is ham fisted. I was, I was definitely ham fisting it. You were a Christian. Yama Gucci on ice, yeah, first time. That's hope. That's the first time anyone's ever compared you to Christian uncle.
Drew Beson 23:39
Billy actually did the interior design at Chris Yamaguchi house. For real. Yeah, for real. That's that is actually pretty cool. I should make a mention we were touching on this a little bit. But I think having the confidence to do a creative pursuit like what I have that was modeled from kind of two different things, but, but one was my Uncle Billy, Billy Beeson is a fantastic interior designer, like so skilled. And not only is it just a fantastic person and character, but the skill, like the talent in a creative discipline, and to see that when I was a kid was huge, just that kind of model, and I don't have, like mentorship and things like that, which I know is very important in order to achieve certain levels of success. Early models for how do you be a creative person and make a living? He had really high end clients, is just did a fantastic job. The quality was paramount. And he was celebrated. He's recognized for it, and to see that when I was a kid just gave me a little bit of a directional push, and to know that there was room at the top, there was room for people that cared the most, and you talk about the hospitality part. Uh, my great uncle. So his uncle, Uncle Bob, was notorious for bringing Bloody Mary mix and showing up at convertible and hanging their art on the weekends. And the clients were super high end folks, and they'd have a Bloody Mary, and he'd rub his forehead and put a.on the wall where the height should be, and Ding, ding with a hammer, and start hanging stuff, and you just go that sort of expectation, like when people find out that I might be the person that's coming out to hang the artwork, or that I need to either see the space or have confirmation of scale and whatever else before I'd even sell it to someone that I just insist on it being right. Think, compared to somebody that just goes. You're buying something out of a tent at an art fair or whatever else. Have no interest in how it looks or where it goes. That's a differentiating factor.
Mark D. Williams 25:49
I think one of the reasons, if I could take a guess at why you've been successful, is that this is a quote I've mentioned many times in the podcast, and my wife says it a lot, and I agree that people forget the quote is essentially people forget what you say, but they'll never forget how you make them feel. And I think the way that all of our businesses interact with people, that's in terms of hospitality, like people come back to a restaurant because of how they felt while they were there, sure, I think the way you interact with people, watching you interact with people, your social IQ is extremely high, but also just the way you you make people relaxed and like the day that you were mentioning, you know, a year ago, we had a house in the Arsen home tour, and you were hanging your art in in the home to help us, you know, stage it for the tour very graciously. And we, we had to put a lot of things together the ninth hour there, and you basically rolled up your sleeves and said, hey, I'll help you all day long. Nobody essentially, I think I may have asked you just to help in one time, but you basically pitched in 1,000% and the client saw it, the interior designer saw it, the people that were associated with the project saw it, but you didn't do it for any sort of reason other than you wanted to help. You generally cared about other people. I think that comes out anytime someone interacts with you, and also I think it comes out in your artwork. And so I feel like people are drawn to that, but only because I've known you now for quite a while that I could maybe articulate it that way. I think a lot of times people describe what to say. You're very warm, you're very inviting, you're very calming, and you are all those things. But I think it's our way of like I think a lot of times we as humans instinctively trust people or want to be around people, but we can't always tell you the reason why. And I think when people come through like a home that we build, one of my favorite compliments is if somebody if I say, oh, hey Mr. Mrs. Johnson, thanks for coming through our home today. What did you enjoy the most? Like, I can't actually tell you what I like, but I just love the way your home makes me feel. I used to not know what to do with that early on in my career, but now I take it as one of the higher compliments, because I think it's speaking to like their relationship with something tangible that they're touching and feeling, which ultimately is an extension of not only myself, but the team we've assembled to, let's say, build the house. Do you feel that way? Like when people react to your art, there's a piece of you obviously all over that art. What is that relationship like? Why do your clients keep coming to
Drew Beson 28:04
you? Well, that I think there's lots of parts of that. And let me kind of, if that's the hub, let me get to the spokes of it. There's a couple of things. One is, we were talking about games. The thing that I find interesting about life in general is that a lot of times people are not interested in delayed gratification. We were talking we joking about the role less traveled on the way in here, I'm playing a long game. My life is much more like farming than it is like hunting. I have no interest in trying to sell something to someone i i Most, I mean, just genuinely want people to find what they want and to help them become happily involved in something that I made is fantastic. It's a sharing they're going to live with this ahead of time. I'm always thinking about the quality of things and how I'm going to make them. We were talking about scalability and some of these other things I could outsource, like portions of my process, or what it is that I do, but if I know that, I'm going to end up touching it and I'm going to be responsible for it, and it's going to be mine. I'm not really interested in trying to save an hour here, or, you know, have somebody do this thing that doesn't do it as good as I do, because I want to have, even if it's a stranglehold, I want to have a hold on what it is that I'm doing, and I'm doing that without even knowing who might end up having it. I think to people who are just putting their toe in the water in any sort of creative pursuit, one of the things that I had heard in early days was invest as much as you can in the quality of materials and whatever you're using, because if things go well, which we all hope that. They do if they go well, that you're going to have to stand behind that thing 10 years later, and if you can afford it 10 years later, the higher end materials and whatever else, and you were cheap about those things and bought inferior quality items earlier, then you're always going to have that feeling, that weird thing, where you go, that could have been better, or that's not nice enough, or I wish I would have done X. So I just think doing good by people and doing things with the end in mind is smart. It's good business, but it also helps you sleep at night. And I think that I think the best about my clients, and if I can help point them in the right direction and give them guidance and use some of my expertise, then that feels great. And I think it's just if you have it of yourself that being generous with those things is just what we're here for, and to abstain from doing that, or to not share it, or to to go. I just finished my part of the project, and I hopped in my car and went off to have lunch by myself. Is silly. That doesn't help that doesn't help you. Moving forward doesn't make me feel good. I wasn't a larger part of it, and if you had a need and I could be there, then I've deepened our connectivity, and that's good for everybody, because I don't need to be in this by myself. I
Mark D. Williams 31:29
appreciate that. You the purity of the work in the attraction that that people are drawn to, the people are drawn to it, versus trying to sell it. I guess my question is it easier to create art without a client, or is it easier to create art for a client? So
Drew Beson 31:47
it's definitely easier to create art without a client. And I don't know if it's like this for everybody, or if it's like this for you. I have a hard enough time executing things that I think look fantastic. I will be spending hours on things that somebody would have said that was good enough print the legend just be done. And it's actually funny, because I get quips every once in a while from kind of general populace will say things like, I remember working at the studio downtown in the Skyway, and somebody came in and was saying, oh my, my niece says something like this with the colors and stuff like that. And I go, Oh, cool. Where'd she study or and they're like, Oh, she's she's eight. And I'm like, that is I you can choose to be offended, but more than anything, I'm like, first of all, you must be so proud of her, because I struggle day and night to try and get things that look the way that I want them to. And if you've got an eight year old niece that's knocking this stuff out like I'm prepared to break any child labor law right to get her in here to execute some of this. But, you know, and people don't mean it in a whatever way, but, but when I get a commission, I am then trying to execute both. What is I'm guessing in someone's brain, part of that, like emotional IQ, whatever is being tested, and then it's my own esthetic, whatever expectation of how it's going to look, how I want it to feel, movement, scale, what's too even, what's too equal? How's it going to sit, fit, look, whatever. And some of it is just because I care, but the other part is like, I really am involved in the process. And there are times when you have to eat your young. I'll get three chords three quarters of the way through a project and have it look really great. And that's the moment in the program where you go. I wonder if I should send this photo to the client, whatever else. And then meanwhile, like to get it through the finish line, I have to take a big left turn and do whatever in order to get the composition to be just right. And if they fell in love with the blue thing that ran across the middle, and that's the part that gets eliminated before it gets to the end of the road. Then I got to explain why that was so expectations and communications and all that kind of stuff is so challenging. I have a hard enough time meeting my own expectations, getting the other person's right is that's a big ask.
Mark D. Williams 34:21
This episode is brought to you by adaptive. For over two years now, I've been using adaptive. It's an incredible game changer. It's AI technology based. It helps you with Bill Pay and as a builder, there's very few things that anger our subs more than not being paid on time. Well, those days are gone. Not only do you know exactly where you are, but you can pay people through your ACH channels, making draws extremely quick with one click of a button, which used to take hours, my office staff is now able to generate a draw to the bank or to the client in literally seconds. The thing that I appreciate the most about adaptive is their ability to keep changing. We've given them three or four feedbacks on things that we need as builders. Dollars, and within just a few months those they're rolling those things out. This is saving us hours per week and days per month in terms of our efficiency. If you're looking to upgrade your business, I'd highly recommend adaptive. You can reach out to them@adaptive.com or listen to the curious builder podcast episode 15 or episode 80, where we dive into their origin story. I think that's interesting. I'd be curious to talk to other artists about that, but I can just relate into like building. Some builders are better at building for their clients. I would mark myself as one of those people I need. We were talking about this at lunch before that. You know, bonders create freedom, and there's a number of things. The land is one, the budget is a big one, the client of the design team, yada yada yada. Right now, we're in the middle of designing our first spec home in 16 years, right? Yeah, I'm very excited about it. However, in some ways it's really challenging. I can do whatever I want. Yeah, there is, there are too many choices, too many choices. Yeah. And I also do not have a, you know, a client, you know, sometimes when I when I'm managing another person's budget for their home. It's easier for me to manage because they're giving me clear guidelines, and in some ways, when you are like so anyway, I guess just related to your earlier comment that I think, I think it must be a personality thing. I don't think it's dependent on the business, because I know another builder that he he really does not like building for clients, because the keeping him happy and pleasing them is too difficult for him. He would rather just build what he wants to build. Someone can either buy it or not buy it. Yes, very binary, yeah. And so and I, and that's fine. I just think it's interesting that you can do something very similar. I mean, for instance, you know, one time my dad's revenue, my dad built 40 homes a year. I built four. They were roughly the same revenue per year. I built four homes. He built 40. And anyway, my point is,
Drew Beson 36:44
there's there should talk about that and how that connects to my business. Yeah, too. I think one of the reasons for that, that I would guess on your behalf, is that having something to respond to. It's like playing tennis. It's like any of these things, you go, Well, I don't want to just bang balls from a ball machine. I want to feel the creative input or the something to respond to, because that then is something to build on. The problem is in my pursuit that I will have already decided the scale and the dimensions, the budget is not part of the conversation because it's already agreed upon. In fact, they've already paid half on a commission, and so it really is just all up to me. And I don't even discuss color with clients, what I will discuss is, what do you like of the work that you've seen of mine, and what did you like about it? That's actually helpful input. But then I go into my evil lair, and I go make something, and a lot of times, people aren't able, and I think it occurs with art in maybe the same way you're describing that they say that they really like it. What do you like about it? And they're like, we're not sure, or I don't know, or I like these colors, or I like the movement, they can describe define sometimes, but that's not an important a person's ability to describe or define those things. It's not an important thing when it comes to are they a good or a bad art collector, the idea that they appreciate it, or that they've got a spot for it, or that they've got the money to pay for it, are all important too. It takes it takes fans and friends, people who appreciate it, somebody that comments on it, just somebody that shares it, any of those things that's an important, important part of the art collection process, an important part of being someone who appreciates art, and you don't have to know everything about it in order to to, you know, be a part of that continuum. I
Mark D. Williams 39:01
would agree you like it because you like it, yeah, and there's different levels of sophistication. I think I would have to imagine that art is very sticky, like it elicits a lot of reactions. It's been a while. I should actually take the kids, my kids, through the Museum of Modern Art again, to Sure, I don't think ever have, but just because it'd be fun, and I love looking at art, it'd be really fun to bring you with. But you know, I'm thinking
Drew Beson 39:20
of all actually, because that's in New York. You're welcome to bring me. Well, they have one here. No, think that we have a Institute of Art. Yeah, they're in the walker. But, yeah, yeah, anyone love big art institutions in Indianapolis? Yeah, we've
Mark D. Williams 39:32
got a great art scene. Where I was going with this, though, is you'd mentioned, like, friends, people talking about it. And I feel like there's, like, your web of connections. I think what makes a real estate agent really effective is they have a massive network. I feel like I've never thought about this until just right this second. I feel like you have an equally diverse network in the sense that this person leads to this person. And I guess where I'm going to go with this question is, where do you find you're doing great. Work. You want your work to stand alone. You want people to seek it out, because they want it you said earlier. You don't want to just force you to say this, but you know you you said it. I don't want to sell it, but you do want to sell your work. But the point is, like, that's not what's driving you. The artwork is driving you. And then you sell it.
Drew Beson 40:15
I don't necessarily make it to keep it. I don't need to COVID each one of these, right? These things and so not have a so
Mark D. Williams 40:21
where do your leads come from? Are they like? How much would come from referrals or past clients or exposure? Because I see you in a lot of, let's say, the Parade of Homes or the artisan home tours. We were We reconnected because we had some childhood connections there, through our moms as well. But obviously, Charlie Egger, we his house was in the tour in like, 2020, 2019, and I was like, Hey, we have a mutual connection. And Drew, let's you showed up in your sweet orange truck that you drove here this morning. And from then on, we started spending a whole lot more time together. Now, then you went to school with my sister in laws, and it's just wild. How many connections now? Then you look back in hindsight, it's everywhere. Billy Beason, I didn't work with him, but my mom knew him really well through your mom and in the art world. And so anyway, it seems to get stickier and stickier. How you know people, but I guess just speak to how have you seen like from the and I guess I didn't ask this earlier. I meant to, but it's a pretty meandering question. But like, your first couple sales, how do they start, and how did they grow? And then, where do you see your Where do you see your following Now, where do you get your sales?
Drew Beson 41:18
Yeah, so ask me that same question in a minute, because I'm going to answer a couple of the things that happened in there. So one of the things I think I learned in very early days, just family business, that kind of stuff, sitting in the back of the the room while my dad did a seminar, that kind of thing. One of the the phrases that really stuck with me is, Don't count your contacts, but make your contacts count. So let's just say I was artist, just graduated from school or didn't, right, and I sold, you know, one piece for almost no money, and maybe had a lead for somebody else, and we'll see. Maybe they've threatened to buy something and it hasn't come through yet, right? The truth is that, well, there's many schools of thought on this, but they say 1000 fans is what it takes in order to have a very successful business. And so whether it means you're getting, you know, $250 from whatever percentage of that every year, you can do it all kinds of different ways. You mentioned that your dad's business did 10x in projects and the same amount of revenue. Correct? I think the economics of being an artist is lost on a lot of people, and I don't think about it at this point really at all. But when I talk to people who are just thinking about being an artist and trying to kind of wrap their brain around, what would it take to make a living doing it, that's where it really comes through, where it just makes it makes it so clear that people haven't done the math on what it would take in order to replace their career with this or that they would make any fraction of what they would need to make in order to lead a life. That's one thing just to survive, but it's not a thing to thrive. So the thing that you mentioned earlier about a starving artist phenomenon, or what I've never been interested in being a part of that dialog. You mentioned my network being vast or diverse. I think that's a huge part of my success. And I think it's I insist that is everything. If I didn't take care of or wasn't honest with or generous with people who I'm connected with or care about, then I wouldn't expect to sell any artwork. I make nice stuff. But if I was a jerk and nobody wanted to work with me, then I would expect to not be in business for very long. I think part of it is that I have always tried to make my contribution greater than my reward, which I think is so essential, is
Mark D. Williams 44:11
that deliberate thought, like, explain that particular thought to me? Yeah, I think that's really important. So
Drew Beson 44:16
my again, from, you know, hanging out in the back of a seminar room. My dad was connected to this guy named thanks, Dan Sullivan, who had a program called the Strategic Coach, which had, like, high net worth. It was for leaders of businesses, and you had to make a certain X number of dollars a year in order to be even allowed in this program, but he had some kind of non negotiables for being a referable person. And you know, those things were, do what you say you're gonna do. Say please and thank you, be on time. And there's another one
Mark D. Williams 44:55
that's like, literally what my grandpa and my mom and dad say all the time. Those three things. Yeah, and
Drew Beson 45:00
well, and these benchmarks, I think, are really important. And, you know, to be the type of person that could be referred without context or qualification, I think, is huge. And, you know, it's one thing to make nice stuff, but it's another thing to go like this guy shows up, he does what he says he's going to do. He's gracious, he's kind, you know, he's generous having people say that kind of stuff about you. It. It leads to whether it's financial wealth, it's personal wealth. And I think that if a person focused on that stuff almost entirely, that the financial part will solve itself. I
Mark D. Williams 45:42
think that's really well said and very admirable as well, because I think of going back to homes, and I often use this as it's it is a line, but I also believe it. I often tell my clients when they interview, let's say it's between me and another builder, and I know the other builder, at the end of the day, they're going to build a nice home, and I'll build you a nice home. Let's just say we're on equal footing in terms of what we can do now. It's about the journey and the process and who you want to spend the next, in my case, a couple years with. And so it becomes a lot like, Who do you want to spend that time with? And it's a relationship, taking a partnership. Yep. And time is we all have the same amount of time, except Oprah. She's got more time. Does she have more time? No. Good job. Oprah Beyonce, she's awesome. I don't know where to go with that one, but in terms of this relationship thing, you want
Drew Beson 46:24
to be fun to work with, yes, and you want to do a great job Yep, and you want to have people who you worked with still like you. I think that for me, if and you've got a longer time horizon with your clients, mine is a lot of ideation, a lot of we're going to and then all of a sudden it happens, whether that's communicator or not, sometimes they're just thinking about it, and then it actually does. Then I get a call, and then it happens that weekend or whatever. But you got a long road, and your job is to try and keep that road as smooth as possible, and keep the cart between the lines. And if you can do that, and at the end of, you know, reaching the destination, you guys don't want to sue each other or strangle one another, then that's a success. And, and I don't have as much room to screw it up as you do.
Mark D. Williams 47:19
I mean, because we have more time to sort of save it, is what you mean. You've
Drew Beson 47:23
got more time to save it, but you've got more time to prove it too. You're being tested week in and week out over the course of a year, or two years, or whatever, and meanwhile, mine is, keep your nose clean for the planning process or the first meet. Wear socks that match, do what you're promising,
Mark D. Williams 47:43
wear socks then, right? We've set the bar very low. If your socks match, actually, as an artist, I hope your socks don't match. Oh, wow, I fail
Drew Beson 47:51
on that definitely match my socks, but I do think I then like to maintain a relationship with clients as much as I can. Some people don't need to hear from me, which is fine, but I'm also private about the interactions too. So there are a lot of people who just can't wait to put things on Instagram and share photos and whatever else I had seen that you had a conversation about a release and being able to put images and stuff like that. I'm very private. Just as a individual, I'm sensitive too, that people don't necessarily want their intimate spaces of their home published widely, and so before I would ever post something, I would ask. But a lot of times I don't, a lot of times I just post a process of something, or I don't post anything, and people who know me talk to me about things and want to hear about my new studio, or something exciting that's going on, or a cool project that just happened, or where a shipment just went to because it's a fun thing. Most people know, and that's good enough. I agree. I
Mark D. Williams 48:52
think one of the things that I admire about you, specifically as a business owner and as a person, is that you seem very at peace and at least equally, room with yourself, and it comes through in your demeanor with other people. And obviously there's ups and downs of life, right? I'm sure you have it, and some of it must is probably personality based as well, I would imagine. But some of it also is the choices you've made. I like what you were saying about kind of intentionality, if our focus is on our craft and the pure pursuit of it, you know what? However you define, success will likely come. It seems like it's when we're older that we become more at peace with ourselves, whatever that means. Like we're more well worn in whatever that is. And so I sort of enjoy watching the aging process of businesses self reflection as we come up with the end of the year for this recording, even though it'll air sometime in January, I appreciate that process of like, self reflection of your business yourself and how you can inform to be a better version down the road. Do you look back at things that you've done in terms of art pieces or how you interact with people that would change how you what are your some of your aspirations for next year? Like, how do you seek to either improve. Or change or I guess what? What sort of drives the innovation, the curiosity. I
Drew Beson 50:05
think a person should try and make their future greater than their past. I think that that's just a positive thing. I look back at my previous self. Drew Jr when I was a pipsqueak, I was courageous, maybe in a way that I had no business being. I kind of put on My iron underpants and went out and did things that were risky and hard and difficult, because hard as a surface. But I mean, I admire who I was, because I was willing to do a bunch of stuff that was hard and just to have the confidence to strike out on my own and to jump and figure out the parachute on the way down, kind of thing. Future, I've got a new studio space, which I'm really excited about. It's different than previous. It's more compact. I think of it a little bit like, well, it's in the West End, and it's got front facing for for people to come in, which is great, because previously I've been a destination. So I'm excited to kind of explore what that feels like.
Mark D. Williams 51:11
You had that back when you're in the Skyway, a little bit. Yeah, I was definitely
Drew Beson 51:15
on display when I was in the Skyway. And that took, yeah, took a lot of courage to be that kind of vulnerable and to be out in front of people, and it's like your laundry is on display at all times. That was actually timing for that was really good, because I got exposure when I needed it. This is pre social media stuff, right? So it's it existed, but it wasn't front of your face, it wasn't consuming hours of people's lives, right? So people got to know me from that, or saw me there, and then I continued myself more in isolation or by appointment, kind of on an island, and then, but now I'm front and center again, so people can walk by and walk in. So I'm excited to see what that feels like, and embrace all the good, bad and ugly parts of that. I think that I'm about to go in, in January, I'm going to be like, making a bunch creating a bunch of work, which is exciting. I'm excited for that right now I'm in that gearing up portion. There's just different seasons of the creation process. I'm right now. I'm in, like, gearing up, whether it's ideation or brainstorming or thinking or collecting materials, or whatever,
Mark D. Williams 52:27
some of the ideas that I like that you've done, and correct me if I'm wrong. But, and this is where I think, when you pivot, you get creative, especially in downturns of economies and upturns in terms of marketing, like what you've been able to take a lot of your work and, let's say, either trade it or get into public spaces, whether it's commercial spaces, art leasing or putting in commercial buildings. I have to imagine that right now, vacancy rates are really low in commercial buildings. Have you explored? I don't know that scene very well, but I think I've just heard you mentioned a few times. Can you either have your art bought or rented or how do you, I don't know this little outside my room, but how do you is there a place for art on a larger scale, like in an entire building, like, let's call it the IDS center, or, like, a floor of a building. Or, how does that work? Because it seems like there'd be a lot of opportunity for something like that, not
Drew Beson 53:15
for everybody. And, you know, for people who just go, I'm thinking about getting into art. I don't think that that's the ideal way to do it, because it takes inventory. It takes, you know, a collection of artwork that you've made over a significant amount of time. It takes scale and scale. Usually it takes money, you know, to have five or 10 or 15 or 20 or 100 big scale pieces. Takes a lot of time, energy, money, work, that kind of thing. But, yeah, so
Mark D. Williams 53:44
fair to say that takes maybe years to accumulate that many pieces.
Drew Beson 53:47
I mean, I it would for me, so I can't imagine it's different for a novice or for somebody who's, you know, exploring, could they make a living doing art? I have the benefit of having a bunch of artwork that's done, and it's large scale, and it's a match for people who've got big walls and are looking to fill space, and the space is empty and unattractive or uninteresting, people have a tough time visualizing how good a space could look, and so I'm like a step in the right direction, in lieu of furnishing or in lieu of having an existing tenant. So for that, it does actually really work well for renting or leasing artwork. I've got a handful of clients like that that I think are really great. I'm thankful for them. And I think it seems as if I provide a really good value, I'm able to make it so that it's bite sized. As far as expenditure, most people who are starting out or making art don't have that flexibility. Don't have the ability of going, Yeah, I can let loose of 20 pieces of. Art and make a small fraction of what I would sell them for, and have them be out of my sight and whatever, because
Mark D. Williams 55:07
basically, you're what renting those or leasing them for a short period of time, but they're still yours. You can still sell them. I mean, there's still an asset that you would have, but what you're saying is that as a yeah, let's say you just started this business, you wouldn't have that kind of liquidity. You need to sell stuff and make the money to keep building that accurate, most people
Drew Beson 55:23
need to hunt, maybe while they're farming, if that's the analogy. Meanwhile, I go, I can just farm. I'm don't I don't need the art, and I don't need the art back. So whether they want to own it at the end of a term, or if they go, we got the utility out of it by having our space look fantastic for two years. I mean, I've done leasing programs for one day for someone who basically perpetuated to the big governmental organization that they existed and that their office was fully occupied and operated. That
Mark D. Williams 55:59
sounds a little sketchy. I like this guy. I like the way this guy rolls. Though. My
Drew Beson 56:04
portion of the program was, Can you deliver 40 pieces of art, install it and then pick it up next week? And I said, Sure. The heavy lifting on my end is mostly the the moving right and the curatorial part, the arts already done. I'm
Mark D. Williams 56:19
I know I got that part. Okay, what a goofy Yeah, that's a weird policy, right? Interesting. Honestly, actually, it's not that different in building. There's been times actually the house you helped me on is somewhat akin to that, right? Hey, drew the client cut the budget on a lot of refurnishings. I had to dip into my house. Some of my artwork, some of yours, good for a week, yeah? Three weekends, yeah. I guess I can. I guess I'm not running a Ponzi scheme either. So I guess there's an application that will work there.
Drew Beson 56:43
And in this case, they were legit. It was just a matter of they had been doing the business part, and that was the priority while they were in kind of temporary space. And they had an opportunity of getting a big governmental contract. And the only way that would work is if they looked the part full on legit. And the best way to look legit was to call me and have a big space $120,000 worth of art delivered, installed and looked fantastic. In lieu of, you know, additional desks and whatever else stuff, they just made it look great. It
Mark D. Williams 57:15
was fun, too. I like it when you get those little surprises of art. So I was down. I had met with Gavin case in the summer to chat with him about a project after reading that book unreasonable hospitality. And he recommended I read setting the table. And anyway, he's like, speaking of Drew, because your name came up, right? And so you had just done some custom art pieces for the food and stable restaurant redo. And then, as it turned out, Kim Sen a good friend of mine from Senn and sons, she had done all her branding. She had done some artwork in the bathroom. So here I two people that little Mark Williams custom homes and curious builder had worked with are here in this beautiful space. And here you are. You've got your artwork in there. And so I love that when you start seeing it spread out throughout that network, and then you see it around town or wherever you might see it
Drew Beson 57:55
well. And Gavin is a great example of someone we live not far from one another. And when they were talking about doing the refresh for the 10 year anniversary, he had said to me, kind of off handed, it'd be great to do some of your art when we do a remodel for a reopen. And I said, Well, that'd be great. Of course, I'm open to that. Just let me know. And I think a lot of times people kind of have throwaway language, or they mention something, oh, we should get together for dinner and we should do blah, blah, blah, or get the kids together. And it's just like a way of getting out of a conversation or deepening relationship. And Gavin is a good example. Of course, he's an absolute Pro that he followed up and he gave me the timelines, and he told me what it would look like, and told me when I could get in and he didn't have to hold my hand with a bunch of stuff. He just gave me access and he he trusted me, just like people trust him at his restaurants when they go tasting menu, what is seasonal, what is fantastic? You don't need to be back there guiding his knife so that you get something good on your plate. He's the pro. He knows what he's doing. And just to give him a little bit of an outline, you go, what are you allergic to? Or what's the and he can go back and produce something fantastic. And has done at multiple restaurants. And he followed up. He did all this stuff to put me in a position to succeed. I'm super thankful, in my opinion, humble opinion, our best chance locally of getting a Michelin star, and, yeah, super talent, great guy, and to be able to work together with him to do something for the restaurants. Of course, an honor, and felt good, and I felt some small part in reopening of a gem in the Minneapolis scene. I mean,
Mark D. Williams 59:46
that's what's Yeah. I mean, I love, I love the connections of people. I think you see that in building too, because you're in, it's very intimate. You're in people's spaces. But I love, one thing I love about the podcast is you get, I get to touch so many more people, so many more businesses, and I get to. Live vicariously through your business and hear your story, and that's just one small some part of it. Thank you for coming on today and sharing parts of your story. And there's a lot more there, and you're very understated. So we'll have everything in the show notes. You can check out Drew beson art. I think it's drewbesonart.com right? Yeah, that works. And so we'll have that in the show notes, as well as maybe some pictures of that to one one of one slide. I like that. Yeah. So, yeah, what we were talking maybe one thing before we go. And maybe you have an idea, maybe you don't. But for next year, is there something that you're really excited about that, I know it sounds like your studio space, obviously just moved here in the last couple months. Would that be the thing you're probably the most excited about, just seeing what, where that can unfold? Yeah.
Drew Beson 1:00:41
I mean, in previous iterations of my studio space, I haven't really been able to entertain in the same way and whatever else, but I'm excited to get some small groups and get some people into the space to check it out, see what I'm working on. Yeah, I think just a lot of times art is an isolating pursuit. You find yourself working for hours by yourself. I listen to a lot of audio books and thinking a lot and in my own head, a lot of music. And yeah, I just, I think, putting together a collection of artwork to be able to have a show. In the last handful of years, I've been selling stuff, not as fast as I can make it, but with intention that it's going to a project, and by the time it's done, it's already allocated to x, and it's going out the door, and it's been, yeah, it's been a lot. So be able to make artwork and potentially put together a body of work that I could show together would be exciting. And I just continue to want to experiment with materials and try stuff and collect with new or connect with new collectors. And, yeah, do good things for good people. And I just think it's, it's a good time. My body's feeling good. That's one of the things I always fight. Because I feel like my eyes are sometimes bigger than my stomach. I feel like I can move mountains and, you know, haul something anywhere and do whatever by myself. But yeah, continue to get bigger and better. Stuff over the balcony, big artwork. And, yeah, I think it's just all positive moving forward. And I'm grateful for all this stuff today, too. Yeah, this is excellent. Well,
Mark D. Williams 1:02:11
I was just thinking a couple ideas spurred out. The one is, you know, we have the curious collectives. Might be kind of fun. We'll find out the timing of it, but maybe we'll host one of our collectives in your studio space. Love. And, you know, we have the builder, designer and architect collective, but next year, we're trying to figure out a way where we'd mix, depending on the size your space. I'm looking for a venue or event where basically all members of the collective would coalesce at one place or something. We haven't really ironed out what that is, but, you know, I can chat a little bit about that love it. So thanks again for coming on and thanks for tuning in to the curious builder podcast.
Drew Beson 1:02:41
My pleasure. Mark, thank you.
Mark D. Williams 1:02:44
We're excited to announce that the cures builder collectives are going into three other states. For those not familiar with what the collective is, it lives between what the contractor coalition is and a builder 20 group. What we do in each state is we have a group of 25 to 30 builders that get in a room and you break up into groups of nine. You spend 45 minutes talking about a set topic, whether it's branding, marketing, contracts, whatever that set topic is for that day. And then you talk for 45 minutes. You get up, you mix up the groups, and you do it again, and you're out of there. You'll be out in under three hours. We're going to be going to Phoenix Arizona. Brad Levitt is going to be leading a curious collective in Phoenix, Arizona. We are going to San Antonio. We've got David and Angela Penske from Penske homes, leading a group down there. And we have Brad Robinson and Vince Longo in Atlanta, Georgia, also leading a collective, as well as obviously me in Minnesota as well, for our second annual collective. So if you're interested in collaborating with other builders. If you really want to dive deep on your business in a person to person relationship, ask a lot of questions. The collectives are for you. We also have in Minnesota interior design collective as well as the architect collective. Check out the Events page at the cures builder podcast.com. Thanks for tuning in the cures builder podcast. If you like this episode, do us a favor, share it with three other business owners. The best way that we can spread what we're doing is by word of mouth, and with your help, we can continue to help other curious builders expand their business. Please share it with your friends. Like and review online, and thanks again for tuning in. You.
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