Episode 82 - Losers Are Winners: Good Clients, Bad Fits, & the Courage to Say No with Tim Rascher
Episode #82 | Losers Are Winners | Good Clients, Bad Fits, & the Courage to Say No with Tim Rascher
This episode is all about client communication—what works, what blows up, and what should make a builder pause. Mark talks with Tim Rascher about how he spots “orange flags” earlier (especially when clients want budget and value-engineering talks behind closed doors). It’s a quick, witty listen that’ll make builders rethink boundaries, expectations, and how to keep the whole team rowing in the same direction.
About The Curious Builder
The host of the Curious Builder Posdast is Mark D. Williams, the founder of Mark D. Williams Custom Homes Inc. They are an award-winning Twin Cities-based home builder, creating quality custom homes and remodels — one-of-a-kind dream homes of all styles and scopes. Whether you’re looking to reimagine your current space or start fresh with a new construction, we build homes that reflect how you live your everyday life.
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Mark D. Williams 00:00
If you've been following us for a while, you know all about curious builder, boot camp and Sonic camp. Well, sonicamp, 2.0 it's on March 20. All the details can be found at curious builder.com tickets are selling fast. We hope to see you there.
Tim Rascher 00:18
Clients not wanting to communicate and problem solve. When the whole team is together in the room, the architect, the builder, the client, everyone's there. Let's talk through budget, let's value engineer, let's figure out where this thing needs to be. But when a client wants to go do that behind closed doors and not talk with the team as a group, it now is an orange flag for me of like, hey, something's up. I'm
Mark D. Williams 00:48
Mark Williams, your host, host of the curious builder podcast. Welcome to your Thursday. Losers are winners. I looked around for a while to try to find the biggest loser I could find, and it's Tim rasher from rasher and Co. We're joking, because for three years I've said, rosher Rauscher, what have I said for three years? Rasher Rauscher, Rauscher Rauscher, anyway, I can't speak. This is going to be a Hooked on Phonics lesson with your buddy, Tim rasher and CO, from St Paul. What's up, buddy? Not much. So you've been part of our curious board collective for are we on our third year or two? Second two
Tim Rascher 01:20
years, I think two, two and a half.
Mark D. Williams 01:22
Yeah, thanks. Two and a half. I wanted to get you in studio because long overdue, you've, you've been to Asana camp before. You coming again this year. We've trying to get you to boot camp. We'll get you next year. And, yeah, what have you got for the audience? I think, kind of our going sequence here is what is one of the biggest losses you've had, or just things that you've learned from, you know, you've listened to the episodes before. Like, what are some things like if you look back on your career, because you've been building now for well over a decade, yeah, and so if you look back, you're like, oh, man, that was a big mistake. And what did you learn from it?
Tim Rascher 01:54
Yeah, absolutely. I think the biggest thing that I've learned throughout my career is, and most recently, this has been probably in the last year or so, learning to say no to clients, and it's hard to tell clients No. I am a people pleaser, almost to a fault, and I've had a mentor early in my career tell me that he was very similar in that way, and learning to overcome that and know when it's important to say no to clients, to even people on your team, that's super important.
Mark D. Williams 02:26
Was there something that stands out where you should have said no and you got used and abused because you didn't say no? That? Like, how did you learn that lesson? Yeah, in a way,
Tim Rascher 02:34
I think it's taking prod, like, in the last year, taking projects that really weren't the right fit, and not listening to yourself on the front end and saying, No, I know you've talked about this a lot on the podcast and and having clients that absorb a lot of time, or maybe they're just not a good fit for you and your brand and your company, and if they're not reflecting your brand at the end of The day, is that truly what you're after and what you want to do, honestly, even when
Mark D. Williams 03:05
you've learned it, you it seems like you learn it again and again and again. I had an instinct recently where you know it's like you want the job. You think it's a good job, but in your heart of hearts, you also know like you're kind of reaching, you're straining for a little bit. And I went and toured this home recently, and I the body language, the things that they were saying, just like this isn't these. Aren't my people, right? And they have followed us. Misa, who's they had tour they wanted to they had contact me a year before, before I even started. I actually kind of walked them through I was going to do, and the price point was too high, which is fine. And so when they were going to do this remodel. I met with them and, you know, I sent them a design contract, but I knew, like, what we do, like, it's, I don't, I can't decide if they don't value it, or if they don't have the budget for it, or if they just want to do a lot of it themselves, or if they're just, I don't think they know. A lot of times, your clients don't even know themselves, right? Yep. And so it's like, you don't want to be judgmental. I think what's always hard to overwrite is like, you don't want to judge a book by its outside cover. And I joke. But then why do people spend so much money on illustrating books so that you buy them, you get pretty picture
Tim Rascher 04:11
on the cover? That's all. Ian, let's buy it. But
Mark D. Williams 04:12
anyway, so I went through this meeting. I've did, I did all the intake, send them a design retainer, and sure shoot in two days later. You know what? We're just going to hold off, which is fine. I mean, they also recognize that they didn't want to spend that kind of money. And I guess the only thing I've learned is like, at this point, put it out there. Like, if you want this level of service and this, and if you value this, this is what it costs well.
Tim Rascher 04:32
And I think kudos to you, because you probably did a good job on the front end in that sales meeting of showing them what your brand is and what kind of level they can expect and what you're going to deliver on, and that also has a price point associated with it. And maybe they decided, hey, that's just not what we're after, or we can get it cheaper somewhere else, and maybe it won't be the best experience in town, but it's, you know, they made the decision of what was best for them.
Mark D. Williams 04:59
I think. Think sometimes flushing out you pheasant, Honda, as I recall. So it's like, you know, flushing out the bird, you know, so you know what you're shooting at, right? Like, let's get clear expectations. Yeah. And early on in my career, I didn't want to talk about pricing right away, because I thought that scare him away. Now it's like, one of the first things I ask about. And like, if you don't have a budget, I like what someone told me recently. Some guy told this designer, I don't have a budget, and she was a very experienced designer. She goes, sir, even billionaires have budgets. And, like, basically, like, Are you a billionaire? Like, you're not so, like, if they have a budget, like, you should have one too, right?
Tim Rascher 05:29
Yeah, yeah. It's a lot of clients, as we know, you know, they'll guard that to the very end, and they want you to come in first and give a budget. And we kind of take the lens of, you know, most of these homeowners have never been through these processes before. They've never been through a kitchen remodel. They've never put an addition on the back of their home. They don't know what a fair budget is, so we're the experts, right? So we'll come in and we'll give the client like, Hey, here's a fair budget what we would see on a project like this. And then it's up to the client to decide if that fits within what they're looking to spend or not. I think
Mark D. Williams 06:05
it's like, it's funny, because I have to go, I have a doctor's appointment tomorrow, and it's like, you know, when you talk to the I feel like in my wife as a physician, so I'm probably heavily biased towards, like, some of her demeanors, like, it's like we get so as craftsmen and entrepreneurs, we get really tied up in like, our craft. I think that's good. However, sometimes we're like, selling ourself all the time, where sometimes if we can just present the option, like, Option A, option B, here's not the problem is, is like, emotion is probably my number one sales gift. Like, you can create positive vibes. Most sales people do that to some level. But sometimes I wonder if like, we're better off just saying, like, a and b, like, which pass would? I don't know what's your thoughts on that?
Tim Rascher 06:46
Yeah, I think a lot of it depends, again, on the client, their personality and what they're looking for with their team and as a builder, and what your team is going to bring in and provide. I think providing options the clients that never is a problem. It seems like every client embraces the more more options that they have. But yeah, it's good to have options for people.
Mark D. Williams 07:10
For sure, what you know, going back to the original thing of, were you learning to say no? Think back to an example where you did not say no, yeah, did the client is kind of like the tail wig and the dog. Like, how did that end for you?
Tim Rascher 07:22
Yeah, so easy example of a project, a client came in. It was a great project, fit, checked all the boxes, but the client wanted to do most the work themselves. And they didn't say this on the front end. But as we started to roll out the contract, it was, hey, we want to handle everything from drywall on and we were like teetering back and forth, kind of negotiating, and we ended up allowing him not to do everything from drywall forward, but, you know, we did cabinets, millwork, things like that, but it just didn't end up being a positive experience for anyone at the end of the day. And it ended up being a challenging project, challenged our team. It. It was not a project looking back that I would take again, and it was the whole time as we were negotiating through contract, pardon me saying say no, and didn't listen to it. And here we are, lessons learned, and moving forward, it's something I would
Mark D. Williams 08:14
watch for in the future. How do you handle the need, as the business owner, to feed the meter, put gas in, right? I mean, it's like, not every project. I mean, there is a, I mean, I am a man of faith, but I this is my own personal belief. I don't love to mix my faith with my business in terms of, like, if one than the other, but there are times where, like, it is proven to be true, like we had one this fall, where it was a big remodel, where we in, the client parted ways, and we had a big gap on our schedule, yeah, and and then out of the blue, like a new home fell into it, and now we're in design, and we'll start it in the spring, and it's like, it's a much better project. We could have handled both, and we would have done a fine job in the past one. It would have been fine. But my point is, like, in that moment, you're always sort of tempted when you see one going away, like, especially when you're younger in your career, you're like, oh, you know, I'll discount it, or all whatever I need this, because I'd rather have the and there's some wisdom to one in the handle versus two in the bush, right? How have you sort of combat that I need a business to run because I've got payroll to meet, I've got mortgages to meet, but yet, this client could also really be a problem for us, right?
Tim Rascher 09:23
And I think that's the other thing I wanted to touch on with learning to say no is that's a constant battle, and especially as you're starting out as a builder, starting out in your career, starting any sort of a business, it's hard to say no to business, it's hard to say no to customers, it's hard to say no to a project, especially when it's a great project. It would look great in your portfolio, everything else. But when it's not the right fit, it just ends up absorbing. You could have three or four other great projects going on excellent clients, but that one that's not the great fit ends up absorbing all of your time. And unfortunately, I think it gets reflected in those other projects that you have going.
Mark D. Williams 10:04
That's a really good point. I mean, when you are hemorrhaging on one project, it makes you scrappy on the other ones. And like that spirit of generosity, like when I've often argued that your the jobs that have done the best financially also happen to be your best clients. For you agree with that, yeah, and your worst projects with the client are also the ones that you have likely done the worst on financially, correct? So if you were to use that like the I mean, you could, honestly, I never thought about saying this before, say, like, you could ask the client, would you rather have a great experience, or would you rather have it's really up to, do you value us? Like it could be that simple. I'd be curious to know what they would say to something. Yeah, it would
Tim Rascher 10:44
be interesting. It's every client's got back to the budget and everything else I think they're paying for that experience. And so you want to deliver a consistent experience to all those customers too. So when you've got the one that's kind of taking everything out of you, and you feel like you can't deliver to those other customers. It's really it's a struggle. This
Mark D. Williams 11:09
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Tim Rascher 12:28
Like, no, I the orange flag is a pretty good description of what right you see in in especially in hindsight, like, oh, I should have listened to that. Orange flag is a great way to describe it. Because I want to say
Mark D. Williams 12:39
like, like, red like, I remember Brad Levitt has said once where he was on a call, I think was a stereotypical lawyer and his wife in the way the life the lawyer, the Mr. The husband was, he was like, yelling and demeaning his wife. Brad literally fired him on the spot. He said, I won't work for you. Anyone that would talk to their wife the way you are, like, I want nothing to do with this. Build, yeah. And he's like, exits. Like, that's a red flag. But that's great because it was so obvious. It's a little bit, like, going back to the spiritual thing. It's like, it's not like, the devil, like, raises your hands, like, oh, you should do this really terrible thing because it's pretty obvious. We're not going to do it. It's all like, the subtle orange flags that you're like, Oh, that's not that bad, yeah. Like, you don't realize till later on, you're like, oh, wow, I went down a route I really wasn't planning. Or would not have chosen to go if I knew it right now that you know that orange flags, like, how many orange flags can you? How many can you? Do you have any sort of rule, like, I
Tim Rascher 13:30
don't, but I feel like I'm learning orange flags the further I get in my career. You go through a sales experience and hindsight, like, Oh, that was kind of an orange flag. So I'll add it to the portfolio. Of orange flags to watch for a great example of orange flag. So we had a big project for us last summer that we're working on getting under contract for you. Obviously, know the story fell through at the last minute, but losers are winners. That's what the episode's about. I think another great learning lesson is get people in your corner. Get involved in things in the industry where you've got people surrounding you that will support you. I called mark on I think it was a Saturday morning. You were heading out the door with your kids, but you made 10 minutes for me to kind of help me digest the whole situation. We just had a massive project fall through huge hole on our schedule, and what are we going to do moving forward? You get that angst as a business owner of like, how am I going to backfill this spot we were going to start, like, next week? That's crazy. How is this all going to happen? And you made time to jump on the phone with me for even 10 minutes and settle my spirits a little bit and pick me up. And that means so much. And having a community around you, whether you're in the building industry or any industry in in the United States, I think it's super important to surround yourselves with people that will pick you
Mark D. Williams 14:55
up when you're down. Yeah, I mean, I I remember some I always joke that I'm a great person. To tell secrets to because I forget them. I do remember, like, in concept of what it was and and usually when someone calls you on an odd time, like, we don't know you and I talked plenty of times during the week, sometimes when we're driving, yep, but then to see what I said, like, okay, something's up. Like, you always kind of know, like, Okay, I'm answering this because, like, something's up. Yeah, you want to be there to help. And so it's you're 100% right in the community, having people in your family, having peers in the business. I think that's one of the things that social media does actually really well, is you you do get a sense of your community, you know, both in the state, but outside the state. You know, I had just mentioned when before we recorded that, I just gotten back from the International builder show. And something that's sort of funny about social media, especially if you go to, like, a big event like the International builder show, is when you start meeting, like, I'm really good with faces, super great with names, sometimes. But like, now that I interact with so many people, and you do too, you do a really good job, especially interacting with architects you want to work with. And it's like, a really smart business move. But like, you some, do you ever get the point where you're like, I'm not sure if I've met this person in reality before, or if it's I'm so familiar with it because I've, you know, been sort of like, you know, marketing around the social media aspect, and so it's a little discombobulating. You're like, I think we should know each other, but I actually don't know if we do.
Tim Rascher 16:12
Yeah, that's funny. One of the first of the designer connections that we made in the Twin Cities has a big social media presence. And the first time I jumped on a call with her, I was just on Zoom, and I'm like, I actually told her. I'm like, I feel like I've met you before, but it's really just, you do such a great job of getting your face out on social media and it you know, I'm sure clients feel the same way when they reach out to you. They feel like they've known you for years. What did she say? She said she's actually heard that before from people, but it's, yeah, it's huge to present yourself in a way on social media that reflects you and your brand and everything else, so that when that time comes, that someone reaches out there, they know what you're about. I think some people do.
Mark D. Williams 16:51
I mean, designers do a really good job of, like, crafting their image, especially if they're very like design centered on a particular look or style. But I was thinking of Katie Cath, a mutual friend of ours, yeah, and she gets the majority of her leads through social media. And she kind of commented that between her newsletter, which is robust, and her social media following, that people are pretty much pre selected and self selected by the time they get to her. Because the one thing that social media does a great job of is people get to kind of see who you are depending on there. I feel like there's two kinds of accounts. There are some people that people that, you know, kind of celebrate only the home and the structure, like, that's what they want to be known for, totally fine. And then there are others that sort of celebrate like their people and the personality. Because, you know, we just talked about like the experience and the journey. And so it's like, whatever that company wants to express is totally up to them. But for Katie, and you know, it's like, it's no wonder that everyone that everyone that comes through converts, because they already
Tim Rascher 17:42
kind of know what they're going to get. And she does a great job of all of her social media really does truly reflect their brand and the projects that they're after and but yeah, it I'm sure everyone that reaches out, they kind of know what they're in for already and what kind of product to expect.
Mark D. Williams 17:56
My joke is, I've actually never gotten the lead off of social media, which only means to reflect that no one really wants to work with me, because if they see my personality, it's like, oh, wait a minute, that sounds like too many dad jokes, too much personality. We're gonna go. We're gonna go with rasher and Co.
Tim Rascher 18:11
A little more refined. It's, yeah, it's funny, like that's reflecting on your brand again. You've got now the curious collectives, you've got the podcast, you've got all these different pieces that if someone were to reach out to Mark Williams and not know what they're in for, for personality and everything else, they really didn't do their homework. You know, you've got it.
Mark D. Williams 18:30
You've got enough credit. It's pretty out there. You know, what is actually becoming, I would say a problem, but it's something that I never thought would be an issue. Is there are certain people that, depending on how they find us, they ask, like, Oh, do you even build homes anymore? You're just into the podcast well, because that's what they see. And it's, you know, that's, yeah. I mean, you know what looks like a duck walks like a duck. It's like a duck. But like, we have definitely different visions for each different company. So it's just kind of funny, as you try to, I would say we've been talking about what clients present to us as orange flags. But I bet there's. It'd be interesting to have a client on actually, yeah, and have this exact same but they would had to have built before, like, a couple. It'd be fun to find a serial, someone who's built multiple times, yeah, with multiple different builders, and ask them, like, what are your orange and red flags? As you interview builders, that would
Tim Rascher 19:16
actually be really that's an interesting concept, because a lot of these homeowners are interviewing, what, three, four, honestly, years
Mark D. Williams 19:25
before they'll know. I don't think they know. I think it's one or two. Okay, talk
Tim Rascher 19:29
to but obviously even between the one or two, like, you could just like someone more than another person, but there might be some orange flags you're like, oh, that jumps out as we don't want to work with this person, because XYZ. But part of it is
Mark D. Williams 19:40
they want to know that you're busy, but not too busy, right? You know, it's kind of like everyone knows this in business, like, when you're hot, you're hot, and when you're cold, you're cold. And like, you try selling something with your ice cold, like, it just re it just comes off of your pores, like, I've got nothing, and it's like you're the desperation is just, let's like, you know, garlic in the room, yeah, you can't hide it. It's like it's there. And so I think they sense that. But I. Think that's one of the things. As you get older, you get more comfortable with yourself and your own you know your story and like the value, like it comes across as confidence, because it says you are confident in who you are and what you deliver. So of course, people are attracted to that confidence, right? Like they won't even be, you know, talking to you already. Sometimes it's even like, Thank you for the consideration. My dad used to have this great line. We don't do a lot of model homes, and it would be like, if he got a low offer, even if it wasn't one he chose not to negotiate on, he'd always say, Tim, thank you. That's the best offer I've had today. Yeah? So he didn't, he didn't insult him up a little bit well. But even if it didn't work out, yeah, he's like, Thank you for making an offer, right? Like, he, let's say the house was for sale for a million that offered 500 grand. I mean, it's a terrible offer, right? But he didn't say that I was didn't say that I was, I always liked that framing. Like, thank you, Tim, that was, that's the best offer I've had today, right? Because it was the only offer you
Tim Rascher 20:48
had today, and it's honest and genuine and everything else. But yeah, I sort of enjoyed that. Yeah.
Mark D. Williams 20:53
Well, you had mentioned you've sort of added a collection of orange flags. Like, what are some, what are some orange flakes that you look for when you're interviewing a client, yeah, or even the architecture design partners or circumstances or budget. I mean, kind of it's all
Tim Rascher 21:09
on the table, yeah, for sure. So, like I mentioned, clients wanting to do a lot of the work themselves, and once in a while, we'll allow them to take on painting or something like that. But it's obviously not our favorite, another one that kind of added to the repertoire of orange flags from the summer this past summer. Lessons learned is clients not wanting to communicate and problem solve when the whole team is together in the room, the architect, the builder, the client, everyone's there. Let's talk through budget. Let's value engineer. Let's figure out where this thing needs to be. But when a client wants to go do that behind closed doors and not talk with the team as a group, it now is an orange flag for me, of like, hey, something's up. They don't want to have numbers or budget conversation from the whole group. Like, something's up, something's off.
Mark D. Williams 21:58
Is it kind of like where they would even take someone aside and like, have a who's the
Tim Rascher 22:02
weakest link? Kind of, no, it wasn't even a sidebar. It was just like, hey, let's present numbers from the most recent set of drawings, and everyone's there. But there was no conversation around like, Hey, thank you for putting this together. We need to get this down to x. Let's talk about ways that we can do that. It was they would take the document, thank you, and out the door, and then they would go talk about it themselves, and then usually circle back with an email or something like that. And who knows if it was because they were in a rush or whatever, but it just was off.
Mark D. Williams 22:37
Yeah, no, I think that's fair. I'm trying to think of some of mine. The communication is a big one. You know, I think one of the things that we can and I think we can do part of it's our system, too. I think they're looking to us. I think as when you're younger in your career, you have this mindset like, I'll do whatever the client wants, whenever they want it, however they want it, because you're really thinking like, that's what they want to hear, and that is what good client service is. But it's actually not, because if you're a professional service like you're not 24/7 like having clear boundaries, having a this is a structure. I found that actually, the higher I go, that the more of these people are business owners, and they actually don't want to be involved. Lately, I've had two conversations with people where the missus were usually stereotypically for our clientele anyway, they've wanted to sort of go co chair on the design. And that can go well with the right temperament. It can also go wrong too. Like the designers, I've worked with, some designers that are like, Hey, we take the intake. You're paying us like we're not, you're not paying us for your opinion, right? You're paying us for our opinion. And I really appreciate when they're like, that robust on there, and then the client, let's go, right, yep, but yeah, just understanding that there's going to be a clear cadence. And so for us by giving say, hey, here, this is our system. If you you're attracted to us, because these are the homes that we built. If you want this experience, if you want this level of execution, this is how we do that. It's like, I think that they're willing to give up control once they trust. And I think if they don't trust, and it's always impossible, almost impossible, to gain back trust if you've lost it. For sure, I don't know, do you like we found that a couple years ago. I don't know when it was, but we started doing our bi weekly meetings. It's a simple thing. Yep, oh my word. It has helped so much.
Tim Rascher 24:16
Yeah, just having those touch points with clients is huge. And back to your point with communication and clients that want to communicate, they want to be in the know. So touch points between weekly updates from project managers, bi weekly meetings on site, in person, whatever it might be to get those touch points with the client and just check in right they might have questions about things that they feel more comfortable talking about in person, or vice versa. So yeah, having those, those meetings are super important.
Mark D. Williams 24:46
I feel like you need to be a I think all business owners have to be like a quasi psychiatrist psychologist, because like, you're constantly reading people's body language, their demeanor, for sure, I think that's what's nice about a team. I've always kind of felt personally that the interior designer. Are such good mood readers, yeah. Mainly, this is just my own bias. Might not be true, but I feel like women are better empaths than men are certainly better than I am. And so it's like, predominantly, that field is heavily dominated by women, yeah. And so I love it when the designers will pull me aside and they'll say, Hey, Mark, I think, you know, Mr. Mrs. Anderson, you know, might need a little check in from you. Or, like, I really, I love it when the team feels that open to sort of help us all collectively serve the client in the best way. But we, I think also, as the owners like we have to encourage the people to do that as well, because we don't want to be intimidating for sure.
Tim Rascher 25:33
No, and that's having that team atmosphere where the client feels safe and they can bring those things up to you know, I was just talking with an architect last week, how we oftentimes are in the room when you get some of the saddest news and some of the best news. Someone's gravely sick, or maybe there's a baby on the way, and we were in such a cool career where we get to hear some of that news for the first time, but having a relationship with these clients that they feel open enough to share that news, because maybe it reflects needing another bedroom in the home. Or we've all been in that position where we've been maybe some of the first people to hear some of this news, whether it's good news or bad news. But having that relationship with those clients, to for them to feel safe to share that with you is huge. I mean, it
Mark D. Williams 26:20
comes out all the time. In the first interview, they'll say, hey, we want a three bedroom house. They have one kid, like, and then I'll be like, so are we? Are we thinking any more down the road? Yeah. And like, 50% time they know the answer. And sometimes they both look at each other and they're like, we're expecting like, have you had that before? They're like, we haven't. They're like, we haven't told anyone. Like, well, good news. I don't know anyone you know. So like Your secret is safe with me, but I won't say anything, but you kind of have to get to the point right away, because, like, when we bring in the architect to start, we need to know three, four bedrooms. Like, yeah, obviously, yeah, we
Tim Rascher 26:48
were 80% of the way done with a huge home remodel. They had four kids, and yeah, probably 80% of the way through they shared they were pregnant, expecting their fifth and it was like, Oh, we got to remodel the third floor now so we can get another bedroom pushed
Mark D. Williams 27:04
up upstairs. But, yeah, I mean, you're right. I mean, there, this is what makes building really fun and creative, is the fact that you're working dynamically with somebody else. When it's good, it's great, when it's difficult, that's really difficult,
Tim Rascher 27:17
for sure. Yeah, no, that's so true.
Mark D. Williams 27:19
Well, thanks for coming on. Want to respect your drive time. You've often said that your favorite are the Thursday minute. 20 episodes. We're at 27 so driver on the block a few times. Folks, thanks for tuning in the curious River podcast. We'll have Tim's notes in the notes section. If you want to reach out to him, feel free give them a follow, engage with them and give them a call on Saturday when you have something going on, he'll answer and help you out. See you buddy. Thanks, Mark, thanks for tuning in. The curious builder podcast. If you like this episode, do us a favor. Share it with three other business owners. The best way that we can spread what we're doing is by word of mouth, and with your help, we can continue to help other curious builders expand their business. Please share it with your friends. Like and review online, and thanks again for tuning in.
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