Episode 95 - Inside the Big Wins: Paul Cramer on Why Surviving Something Shapes Everything
Episode #95 | Inside the Big Wins | Paul Cramer on Why Surviving Something Shapes Everything
Paul Cramer sold his business, hit rock bottom, and discovered that being sober for decades doesn't automatically mean you have your stuff together, which is a humbling plot twist for anyone keeping score at home. Round two gets into the real work: two weeks of intensive therapy, rebuilding from scratch, and why the way you survive something becomes the way you live everything. Buckle up, this one hits different.
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Paul Cramer 00:04
I had reached the pinnacle of success from a business standpoint with the top of my game, and I was just slowly and surely unraveling, where I'm like, I just do not like who I am. So I reread the book, it just hit me differently, and that's where the tagline, the way you survive something becomes the way you live everything, and I was like, oh, that's brutal.
Mark D. Williams 00:30
Welcome to Curse of the Podcast. I'm Mark Williams, your host. Today, we're back with round two with Paul Kramer. One episode was not going to do it. We got in way too deep. This episode, we are going to continue the journey from burnout to figuring out what happens when you unravel yourself after you sell your business, and what it looks like to go through therapy. So, we're back with Paul. You can listen to the last episode, and right now we're going to talk a little bit about what happens when your journey is over, when you've sold your business. And so, Paul, what was that like? So, you went through marriage therapy, and I have friends that are in therapy, and I've heard before that the therapist sometimes is like that therapist won't work with you privately, like that therapist is just for the couple, you have to get a second therapist for just your self work, is that, is that accurate?
Paul Cramer 01:10
Yeah, our, and in fact our marriage therapist was like, and you're good, and Paul, you need to work with my partner, and so I ended up working with with a partner, and Anna, and I probably, for a year, went from every week, then to once every other week, to once a month, and then, like, you know, you're good, but largely the conversations, when we were marriage therapy, were how I'm not showing up, or, you know, I'm doing this again, and, and what I will say, they did really, really well, and this is my experience with therapy, and I've seen a lot. I am the pro at going for three weeks, and then, like, they touch something, I'm like, "Oh, I'm done, I'm.. we're not going, you know? I'll find another one. But they did a.. I never felt like I was getting beat up on you. I just went in, and I'm like, "All right, whatever I need to do to not feel the way I'm feeling, it, I will do whatever you tell me, like I was just saying that you kind of, that expression, apprehensible demoralization,
Mark D. Williams 02:08
I think that summed it up. I was just gonna say, you kind of have to get, you hear this term colloquially, like you have to come to the end of yourself.
Paul Cramer 02:15
I was at rock bottom, I literally,
Mark D. Williams 02:17
how, how old are your kids at this time when this is happening,
Paul Cramer 02:22
our oldest was out of the house. Our middle son, he was living with us and working with me. Actually, both boys were working with me at the same time. And then our youngest was in grade school. Yeah.
Mark D. Williams 02:34
Oh, so they were working that in barometer.
Paul Cramer 02:36
Yeah.
Mark D. Williams 02:37
Oh, wow.
Paul Cramer 02:38
Well, the great thing about having kids, you can pay them in paper clips, and I think they're making a million dollars, and it's right off. Feel great, awesome. Well, I would do too, and would be like, How are the boys? And I again confuse proximity with presence, and I'm like, I don't know, they were at their cube all day, but I thought we were super close, and like, we worked together, you know, but we weren't it, they were close, but I was just checked out. So, you,
Mark D. Williams 03:03
so I'd love to hear that about this. So, like, you, you hit rock bottom, your therapist and yourself through a period of time. You can share the time period here. You sort of unravel, you have to build yourself back into something. I would love to hear a little bit about the process of unraveling, what it feels like, and then essentially, how do you read? What do you, where do you go from there? I reason I bring it up is there are so many people that we've had, we do this open mic night thing, and a lot of people have talked about taking their own life, and they've talked about, you know, what that kind of depression, where it leads to. I don't think you ever, from day one, you know, from the time you're, you know, for the audience, I can't see this, like, you can't go from here of positive to, like, taking your own life in one day, like it's a series of decisions, and before you know it, you're really close to the edge, like you didn't get there, like you're close, but then to walk back from that edge, what is that? And I'm not saying you were there, now I'm just saying I've had conversations like this on the podcast, so framing it, what's it like to be unraveled, and then what's it like to build yourself back up?
Paul Cramer 04:02
That's exactly where I was. So, when my wife went down into my office, she saw, she found I want to kill myself, and I had actively been thinking about it, and so that was the rock bottom moment from a therapy standpoint, when I was quickly told you need to go see this other person that deals with trauma and all this stuff, you know, I had a very intensive.. I had to take two weeks off, called my boss, and, like, look, I'm out of my mind, I have to do something, and so it was two weeks off, and I had an three to five hour intensive for the first week, so Monday through Friday, it was exhausting. I'd come out, you would have thought you're an ultra runner, you would have thought I ran a marathon. I was just dripping in sweat, exhausted, puffy eyes, just.. and here was the net result that week really taught me to. Be myself, that was the big epiphany moment. Is forever I had been running around as in some facade, some extension of who I thought others wanted me to be, or who I thought I needed to be for others to either like me. I have a.. I'm deathly afraid of people thinking that I'm dumb. I talk really, really fast, and I think faster than I can speak, and I'm dyslexic, all this stuff, and I have this huge fear of being dumb. So everything I did was to try to set me up to look like I was smart, and I am smart, but just not like I can't look at a physics book or algebra and be like, oh, that makes sense, because it's jibber jabber to me. So, the net result of that week was really my goal was just to be who I was, and it was enough. There's a line I would say to Anne all the time: Can I be business? Do I have to be business Paul, or can I be myself? And myself, we call them three button Paul can be a little because I'll do the Brad Pitt unbuttoned. Oh, like everyone wants to be cool like that, and she's like, no, just be yourself. But I always have this like business Paul persona, and it is not becoming. I think I'm. it's very measured, and it's uncomfortable, like when I am.. is this not who
Mark D. Williams 06:24
you are?
Paul Cramer 06:25
It's not who I am, and I start to sweat, and it's just.. it's an uncommon.. I'm sure watching it from the outside, someone's like, what exorcism is this guy going through? Because it is so awkward.
Mark D. Williams 06:37
You know, it's interesting.. we've done some personality tests at our at our company, and one of the things that was really eye-opening to me was, you know, there's an innate nature all of us have, and then, you know, it's like nature and nurture, and this fascinating discussion about it, but basically, if you are, let's say, you're an extroverted person, that is, like, for me, I'm all red, yellow, if people know the disc assessments, if you put me into, like, just looking crunch numbers, like math was really hard for me, mainly because, like, my brain doesn't work, though. Jibber, when you said physically, jibber jibber, yeah, I would. The only thing physics books would be good for is, like, how far could I throw it, what could I break with it. Now that really, that makes sense. And plus physics, I'm not sure the teacher would even be mad at you, he'd probably find a way to make it into a lesson, but I find that if we are not in a place that gives us energy back, we're just draining, and it sounds like your business, Paul, and Three Button Paul were two different people. Oh,
Paul Cramer 07:30
totally 100% and you know, three, and they're both opposite extremes of who I really was. They were just different personas that, you know, yeah, I throw me in a room, put a mic in front of me, I can be funny for like 10 minutes, and you know, but then I'm like, I want to check out, I just, I start to isolate, you know, my big behavior patterns were isolation, fantasy, and anger, those were the things that, as I started to unravel, first I started to get just more and more angry, that anger started to lead to isolation, and that isolation started to lead to fantasy, like, and fantasy, like a good example, if it's brutal, but like, if one of my boys would come home and they're like, they had a bad day, or someone said something to them. My first instinct is, how can I ruin that family, right? Like, yeah, they would even say the same thing, they're like that, and it got to the point where they wouldn't tell me, because then that fantasy would just feed my anger, because when people feel, when my wife or the boys felt down, their sadness just triggered rage in me, not because I was mad at them, but just because of experiences I had had, as you know, a young kid and as a young adult, and I just started to learn that, huh, I started to recognize these triggers, these survival patterns, and that really anger was just a survival pattern to get past something that you know, some uncomfortable experience I had, but I was hardwired to it, and really the whole.. I got into writing this book because I was obsessed with why do I have so much fear, because I got sick of my therapist saying, 'You're fear-based, you're fear-based, you're fear-based. I'm like, yeah, okay, I get it, I get it, and so really, that's the whole, the whole premise behind the book is the journey behind why do I have all this fear, and it started to uncover, you know, certain moments in my life where I'm like, huh, okay, that's when I stopped thinking rationally about a certain feeling or experience, so I'm not going to get sad, I'm going to do the opposite and just get angry, and I don't know if you've ever done this. The best example I know from a dad standpoint, when someone gets sick, a mom's usually pretty nurturing, I'm instantly annoyed, I'm put out of, like, why.
Mark D. Williams 10:00
They sick. Why
Paul Cramer 10:00
are they sick? Don't they know I have a meeting, and I was never sick. Like, I went to school when it was sick, and I'm instantly put out. It's so unbecoming. It's not helpful. It's like the opposite of being a partner to your partner, and that I learned because I used to get sick every year on my birthday for a two week period of time, and I would just, it happened for years and years, and I realized that was just my trigger response to when one of our kids got sick, it was just a trigger to me, like going back to, huh, that's how I survived a moment was just to tell people I, because I learned to say I wasn't sick, hunts that hence the three years of unraveling. I was sick emotionally, not physically, and I bet I learned to just not say when I was sick.
Mark D. Williams 10:49
That is so relatable. I, yeah, I mean, I don't know what parental.. I could only speak, I can't speak for all parents, I can only speak for myself. But yeah, I definitely.. there been times where the kids are sick, you're like, it's an inconvenience,
Paul Cramer 11:01
totally.
Mark D. Williams 11:01
Don't they know I have this meeting with this architect? Don't they know? And you're like, and yet.. and here I am. So, well, aware of, like, I mean, nothing is more important than family. Someone else, if you call me and say, "My.. I.. whatever. But why, when it's your own kid, who you.. you should move heaven and earth for that kid. You're like, "Oh no, like, and you know, you got the kid in the back. You're like, well, I'm still making this meeting anyway, so you got this anyway. My point is that I appreciate the way you, you shared that, because there are times I know this, my own weakness, like I think I'm not very empathetic, I might actually be more than I think I am, I just have no concept of it, really, because I'm like a very practical, logical, like a lot of guys, right, that's probably what leads attention to marriage, right, and my wife is uber empathetic and very good at that, and I often find that, like, you know, like, you know, when, if you get into a marital fight conversation, whatever, and your spouse starts crying, my usually my first inset is like, oh great, here we go again, like, it's not my reaction is not one of compassion or one of empathy, it's like, really, we're crying now, like, why is that? And, like, and then it usually takes a framing, or it's like, the in the usually be the reason, in my case, my spouse is crying, is because my first chance, she doesn't start crying, she started because I wasn't listening, or I wasn't connecting, and that is where I fall short, and it's not until they get so, in some ways, I'm responsible for that, because it's then when you see someone in pain, and it gets through the dumb head that I have, I'm like, oh, they just need someone to listen right now. It's just, and it's funny, it's way easier to see it in other people, other couples, other relationships. It's very hard sometimes in your own to really understand it as clear as it is when you're a little further away, and only time and space sort of like, oh, okay, that's that's how I supposed to react.
Paul Cramer 12:43
Oh, I couldn't agree more. My wife, if she has a question, my instant thought is, how do I fix this, and how do I solve this problem? And then that creates the argument, or the, I'll just call it a fight, it creates the fight, and then I used to go into what my wife would call Carney talk, which is pretty much the same as gaslighting that we've come to realize, and then you know she's had she just wants to share something, I'm trying to solve it, that turns into a fight, then all of a sudden it's Carney talk or gaslighting, like I didn't start this, and then it gets into this full blown thing, and yeah, to your point, if I would have just like listened and like just be present, we wouldn't be where we're at.
Mark D. Williams 13:35
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Paul Cramer 14:26
That was my whole problem. I couldn't be present because, like, if for me to slow down meant, oh, like something's gonna happen,
Mark D. Williams 14:33
right? What, going back to, you know, this period of time, you said that that two week period where you really realized that you had to, you know, just realize who you were. What happened that several years ago at this point?
Paul Cramer 14:47
Yeah, I would. Yeah, it was like seven years ago.
Mark D. Williams 14:51
How long did it take for you to sort of build back up? Walk us through here. Like, what is it like? So, you, you went through this period of time, you realized that the person in the mirror wasn't the. And you wanted to be, and then once you realize, like, hey, this isn't who I want to be, what does that build, and I know it's different for everyone else, but I'd just be very interested, where do you go from there? Because I think there's a lot of people that they reckon, they finally get to the point where the end of themselves, and let's hopefully they don't take that path that you can't recover from, and you, but they also don't know where to go, whether it's therapy, however you get there, but then once you get there, and I know there's that saying, you got to do the work. What is the work you always hear about it, but what is it? What does it actually mean to do the work, and then to get better?
Paul Cramer 15:32
For me, it was I had to change everything, not just some things, I had to change everything, and unfortunately, it meant I had to change some friendships, I had to change the way that I worked, I had to change the way that I slept, and my hygiene, like literally, when I say change everything, I had to change everything. What time I left for work, because I used to leave purposely very, very early, I didn't want to spend too much time with anyone right in the morning. I had a lot of things that I thought I needed to do, keyword thought that I needed to do, and and then I stuck myself, excuse me, and a lot of uncomfortable, a lot of uncomfortable situations, and just started to get more comfortable with it. I don't want to say I was comfortable, but just more comfortable, but I changed everything.
Mark D. Williams 16:29
Wow, wow. Looking back, what I mean, do now do you find that from almost like a mentor point of view, other people that you are in your life now are that are where you were, and you are sort of, you're able to help them, or what does that look like now that people knew who you were? I mean, do you find that people now are like, hey Paul, we like you a lot better now than we liked you before? Like, what is it like interacting with people, or to people, because, like, I know that people that have, I have some friends that a couple people that I run with, that you know, have been sober for decades, and a big part of it for them, I don't know if this is relatable or not, that's why I'm going there, is they find that by mentoring others or helping others, like I know I have one friend who's like, you know, everyone's gonna call me, and I can just tell the mentor needs, you know, a mentor, yeah, and he's like, the best way to help yourself is sometimes to help somebody else. Have you experienced that in this last seven years that you've sort of been on this journey?
Paul Cramer 17:28
I mean, yes, candidly, I sobered up when I was 17, so I was a show. I've been a show for a long, long period of time. Is
Mark D. Williams 17:36
that the name of the next book?
Paul Cramer 17:38
And the moral of the story is, you can be sober and go to meetings, and still be an effing show. So I'm well versed in going to meetings, being of service to others, sponsoring other men. In fact, when I was probably feeling my lowest, I was sponsoring 11 guys, going to seven meetings a week. It wasn't fixing anything. I wasn't drinking. I've been sober for over 40 years, but it wasn't solving the problem, so what had happened. I just started to share my experience with different people, not those that you know, that actually prior to that I didn't really share my whole experience. I shared, you know, what I wanted people to see, and I think it's.. I hate the word. The vulnerability was a eye opener for a lot of the men that I was, you know, collaborating with, and trusted, and that just.. I think created an experience, and them, where they're like, oh, I kind of see how this works, so I took what I learned in AA and said, all right, what I'm dealing with isn't really an AA specific issue, it's something bigger, and you know, AA doesn't solve every problem in the world, it can solve a lot, but there's certain things that it's just not designed to do, and sharing that experience and seeing others, their reaction, and their willingness to help, and really, my biggest fear in that, after doing that week of therapy, is if I told them this experience, that they'd be like, I don't like this guy, and or he's whatever fear I had, and that was quite polar opposite, and I'm being purposeful, not giving away the plot of what I wrote about. Yeah, but I had a traumatic childhood experience, and it, you know, it informed - I don't want to say every decision, but it informed the next decision, and then that decision informed the next decision, and I just built this calcification and this decisioning process that was really reaction. I thought they were decisions, but they were reactions at to how I was experiencing being comfortable at that moment.
Mark D. Williams 19:59
No, I think that. It's very well said. How I mean, like I said, I can't. I'm literally gonna go forget it. My new favorite thing to do is, when I like a book, I buy like 10 copies of it. My new favorite thing is to write inscriptions and give it away. I just love, I loved books when I was a kid, and then for about 20 years, just with running a business and a young family, I just.. I'm too tired, like, to read a book at night, I'm just like, I'm asleep, like, I go to sleep instantly. Now, at 45 the last three, four years, I have made it a priority to read regularly, and I remember why I loved reading for so many decades. I still listen to a lot when I run and whatnot, but there's something different about reading a book than listening to a book.
Paul Cramer 20:39
I love, I just finished doing the audiobook version, and it was a blast and exhausting at the same time. But I'm with you. Not only do I read a book, I underline it, because it's really hard for me to read, and it takes a really, really long time. And my wife.. the running joke is, are you going to underline the whole book? I kind of have to, because I won't remember what I read.
Mark D. Williams 21:03
When we're done with this, I'm my next door. I have Dan Martell's Buy Back Your Time. I'm going to open it up, and you can take a picture of it, and be like, 'Honey, I'm not the only person. There's more blue highlighter. Literally, why don't you just circle the whole book? I'm like, I
Paul Cramer 21:16
remember I was a freshman in high school, and we had to do our notes, and I turned it into the teacher, and he goes, he sat me down. He goes, "Paul, these are very carefully written. The goal is not to copy the book, every sentence, it's to take.. and it didn't make any sense to me. Write down what the idea is, and that just did not comprehend. I'm like, okay, I still like basically every sentence.
Mark D. Williams 21:39
Amazing, how that you mentioned the next book, how long ago, or has, or how long has the book been out?
Paul Cramer 21:47
Burnt Pepe Butter Toes came out in 2022 and Anne and I did some Facebook posts and stuff like that, and then just it quickly fizzled. We got, we run with scissors, so we had another idea, and it was just on to something else, and I realized this winner the character's name is Jack Daly, which is me. I obfuscate all the names, but if anyone that's listening, if you're reading it, Jack Daley equals Paul Kramer, and I started to read it because I started becoming Jack Daly again. I had reached pinnacle of success from a business standpoint, one is an individual contributor, but I was at the top of my game, and I was just slowly and surely unraveling, not to the degree that you would read, you'll find out when you read the book, but enough where I'm like, I just do not like who I am, so I reread the book purely out of boredom, and I'm like, it just hit me differently, and that's where the tagline, the way you survive something becomes the way you live everything. I still saw I'm making the same decisions through that same lens. There's not the concept, the consequences aren't as great, but I'm still, I'm still Jack Dailey, and I was like, ah, that's brutal, right. And so then I'm like, all right, I'm gonna now that I have a reframing of it, which, and that reframing was really probably more important, I think that's actually why the book got written, because it was accidental. I wrote it really, really fast. I wrote it to prove to myself that I could write a book, and it just, it landed so much differently. It was weird to see, oh, I'm cured. I thought I was cured, and then four years later I'm like, oh my god, I'm doing, I am doing Jack Dailey stuff all over again, and it was, it was one of those epiphany moments, and I was just starting to write my second book right now, which I'm almost done with, and it just.. they kind of went together.
Mark D. Williams 23:48
Amazing. There's a.. are you familiar with the book Atomic Habits?
Paul Cramer 23:52
So I love James Clear, and I love Habit Stacking. It's one of those books where, within 20 pages, I could almost recite like everything made so much sense. I would say, like, where Atomic Habits is, or Start with Why, or B'nai Brown's books, they all kind of have a this is a framework, and this is how you do stuff. Burnt Peanut Butter Toast, and really what I write in the next book that I have coming out are really more mirrors. This is how I show up, and it's Atomic Habits. I read that right after I read reread Burnt Peanut Butter Toast, and I, I felt totally empowered. And then I got frustrated, and this is about the fact that habit stacking is awesome, but when let's say you work out, you run every day, and I don't know if you're like me, if I have a goal I'm going to run every day, and I miss a day, and let's say I miss Tuesday, can't start running again until Monday, like it just doesn't. Make logical sense to me. You don't like, okay? Everything starts on a Monday or Sunday, so I got, and I got obsessed with why do I do that? Like, to me, doing the habit is not the.. it's why do I stop? That's the question that I'm super interested in. And I don't have the answer, but I can share a reflection of, like, I know I stopped different things, and it's usually related to a survival pattern, and that survival pattern is tied to a fear, and that fear is tied to some type of trauma, and that trauma is a result of some type of broken promise. So that's kind of the mindset that I work through.
Mark D. Williams 25:34
Interesting, I mean, that way, when you say it, it sounds.. I mean, it sounds so simple. I don't.. it's hard to realize that when that happens, totally. I mean, when you say I'm like, oh, wow, I have to re-listen this a few times to see kind of that sequential chain order that happens. I think you're right. I think one thing that I've talked a lot about on the podcast is, and I think you've touched on a little bit too, is I would like.. I think it's great if your business gives you passion and you give it passion, but if it takes everything from you and gives nothing bad. It's a bad relationship. It's terrible. Most people understand bad relationships, and it's funny, as like you get older, you have people that are in the dating scene again, or whatever their circumstances are. When my kids are old enough, I can't wait to share them, you know, some of my experiences, and I think some of the biggest heartbreak is really from a sort of a failed thing, like if I told my daughter the other day, she's only 10, so she probably didn't understand what I was saying, but I'm like, I think joy comes from within, I don't, I get joy from other people, but the main cause of joy for me personally, it comes from within, and like, if we depend on our business or another person for the sole purpose of our joy, at some point it's going to run out, and then we, then we think they're the failure, but that's not the really the issue. The issue is us, and doing, you know, and you know, if you're a spiritual person in your relationship with God, or your community, or people around you, like, anyway, I think again, supportively framed, because I've written a book to make my thoughts simple here, and I'm too ADHD to ever do that, but the idea is that if our business defines us to such a degree that if our business fails, we fail. It's a toxic cycle, and I want people to realize that I think our business can give us a lot, but there is a time to like kind of lay the hammer down, because there's always work to do, and I'm a big fan. I give this keynote speech at conferences called Boundaries Create Freedom, and I didn't realize it at the time. I give my wife a lot of credit, you know. Every day I'm home at five because we have dinner at 530 and really it helps that I'm tired at night because I can't work at night. You get an email from me at night, like it's probably what, no one knows what it's saying, because I just don't work that way. I'm a morning person, like you, and the problem is, reminds me of that there's a great line in Born to Run, it says, whether you're a lion or a gazelle, when the sun comes up, you better be running, and most entrepreneurs' minds work that way, when you wake up, it is like going on, and it's hard to, like, I know some people that meditate, I have the hardest time slowing down and meditating, that's one of the reasons why I love long distance activities, because when you are running, it's a bit of a flow state, and I get so many ideas when I'm quiet, and in order to get quiet, I have to exhaust myself. That's that's what works for me.
Paul Cramer 28:14
You bring up a good point, though. I think meditation is people think of sitting down doing the om meditation in my mind, what I have learned is anything that I can do to not be thinking about myself. So, whether it's running, whether it's some people read religious passages, I actually do like to meditate, so I've gotten pretty good at it, but my experience is it's the moment where I'm not thinking about myself or my problems, and I'm just being open to what's possible. To me, that's meditation. Some people get it walking around the lakes. I mean, it comes in all forms. I
Mark D. Williams 28:50
think you're right in that. The one thing that came to mind when you're saying that is not thinking at all is a very like to be quiet is my particular difficult thing to do. For sure, the only two ways I know how to be completely quiet is when you have no other option. Downhill skiing, there's not a lot of time for idle thoughts. When you're skiing through the trees fast, like you are very present, mountain biking again, consequences of thinking is probably some broken bones or something. And so there's something in that, in that, and there's adrenaline and exercise and other things too, there, but like running, you can really just disappear, because you don't need a lot of thought to remember to keep moving your feet, it's kind of like breathing, no one, you don't have to think about breathing, but I do feel like there are certain sports when speed and some of that kind of narrows down this vision, you have to be hyper focused, for me personally, I find that that is a kind of this meta to meditative flow state, if you will. Anyway,
Paul Cramer 29:43
I would totally agree. And you brought up running, and I used to run all the time, and I get into that meditative state at work. I would just follow my breathing, and I've since learned, since that five week period of time, when I breathe through my nose, I. Like the thought that I had quickly goes away. I don't know why that is. I don't know if, like, breathing in your brain has.. have you read? Have
Mark D. Williams 30:06
you read Breath or Breathe?
Paul Cramer 30:07
No, I don't read.
Mark D. Williams 30:09
Yes, you do. Have you not read that?
Paul Cramer 30:11
I have. Okay,
Mark D. Williams 30:11
I'm gonna get that book and mail it to you, because it's the whole book is about breathing through your nose.
Paul Cramer 30:15
Yeah, it's a total game changer. Like, when I drive now, I don't turn the radio on unless I'm listening to my son's band, most of the time I'm just breathing, and I'm much more aware to the point where it's a little freaky, like I will get home and I'll be like, I don't even really know how I got here, were there red lights, did I cut someone off, but it's a form of, again, if I'm not thinking about myself, that usually means that I have space and I can breathe, and I'm in a meditative state. I don't always have to be on the ground with my legs crossed and like oming at every day.
Mark D. Williams 30:54
Amazing. I want to respect your time and the audience. Thank you for two episodes in one. Two, this guy's awesome, guys. Check out his book. I'll have it linked in the podcast in the notes as well. And now I can't wait to go read it.
Paul Cramer 31:07
Dynamite. Thank you very much. This was a blast.
Mark D. Williams 31:09
Thanks for driving in. Appreciate it.
Paul Cramer 31:10
Take care.
Mark D. Williams 31:12
If you're looking to level up your business in 2026 and beyond, the Contractor Coalition Summit is the place for you. If you've been a listener to the show, you know that this has been the single biggest factor in how I've leveled up over the last couple of years. It's had a huge, profound impact on my business, my personal life. It's what helped me launch the Curious Builder. In fact, our second event of the year is a little change, september 15 in Minneapolis. We are doing a one-day event, so for the last four years we've always done three day events, sometimes four day events, and we wanted to recognize that it's a significant investment in yourself, which is definitely worth every penny. I've talked many, many times about that, but for some people it's just out of reach. So we wanted to do a one day crash course event. Obviously, we can't cover all that we can cover in a four day event, but this will be a major, major upgrade to whatever you are doing if you haven't been to one. So, that'll be september 15 in Minneapolis, and then our last one of the season will be another three, four day event in Charlotte, North Carolina. All the details can be found at Contractor Coalition summit.com Hmm. Thanks for tuning in to Curious Builder Podcast. If you liked this episode, do us a favor, share it with three other business owners. The best way that we can spread what we're doing is by word of mouth, and with your help, we can continue to help other Curious Builders expand their business. Please share it with your friends, like and review online, and thanks again for tuning in.
liams 00:00If you're looking to level up your business in 2026
Mark D. Williams 00:03
and beyond, please consider contractor coalition, amazing people, incredible builders from all around the country. We are coming up on May 1 through the fourth in Denver, Colorado, on Friday, which is the opening kickoff of that event, we are going to do a tour of a construction instructions warehouse and their whole facility where they test products from all over the world, in Colorado and Denver. We're also going to do a tour of alder view constructions, beautiful homes while we're there. And then that evening, we will kick off the event for Denver, that is May 1 through the fourth. Then our second event of the year will be a one day Crash Course. Will be September 15 in Minneapolis, Minnesota. This is really meant to be a much abbreviated version, but obviously at a much lower cost. And then our last three, four day event of the year will be in Charlotte, North Carolina on November 6. For all the details, please head to contractor coalition summit.com you
Brad Leavitt 01:02
so you're coming home Ian from home or working in your office, and people are, you know, cutting on the wet saw. I mean. So here's the thing is, we have protocol for a reason, and as as understanding as a client may or may not have been, you still have to hold your guts, and we did not do the next case and and now we're paying the price for it. Mark,
Mark D. Williams 01:24
welcome
Mark D. Williams 01:27
to curious builder Podcast. I'm Mark Williams, your host. We're going back old school OG we got Brad Levitt down in Phoenix, Arizona. What's up, buddy? What's up? Mr. Mark, I haven't count you're either at four or five times. It's like, I just saw the other day that Jack Black was on Saturday Night Live. He was like, one of the first time, five time guests. I'm gonna have to start doing like, you know, the number of guests like you and Morgan Molitor, I think, are probably vying for a top spot here, at least, but I get the original claim to fame you started your podcast. I agree that's mine. It's true you, for sure, you're the OG that's at least a factor a power of two. Well, today is Thursday's episode. We're gonna do a losers or winners 20 minute segment. Minute segment on basically, you know, some big losses that we've learned from and it's fun because you and I get to see each other in like, just a week May 1. We're already coming into Denver, Colorado for a contractor coalition Summit. Can't wait. I mean, it's coming up fast. I know I was trying to get there early with you so we could have a little bit more extra time, but that Summit's so fun. I actually just had Trapper on my podcast, and I know he's been on yours, and came to Summit, and we have a few new people, even from Phoenix, coming and I don't know that community of the coalition Summit is something else, from the builder show to things you guys are doing all of us. I mean, the community has grown so much. It's so fun. Anyone that isn't going they're missing out big time. Well, what's amazing about it is it's been, it feels like forever, but it's only been four years. I know four years ago right now, Brad, the first time you and I ever met was when I went to Nashville. And I think of how much my business, my career, I mean so many things in my life, personal life as well have all changed through the friendships, the connections. And you know, regardless of what your path is, I think what's so unique about what you know you and Morgan and Nick started, was really just being the first ambassadors of collaboration over competition, and now it's like, if you're not, if that's not the bumper sticker on your business, like you are, that is like you you're being left in the dust. Yeah, I don't know. It's so true though. I mean, it's only been four years, and you think, how many attendees have come, how their business has multiplied, their networks have expanded. You know, I want to tell Orlando, you know, it's with you in Orlando, the, you know, the builder show Cabe is IBS and, like, it's like 50 alumni speaking events, you know, at the booth with different vendors. And it's not just about that, but the community has just grown. And you see these, these vendors and suppliers that are just hungry for for talent and network and, you know, to build the community. And it's just, you know, construction is tough, like, the more, you know, allies you have, it just makes it a lot easier to fight some of these battles that I'm sure we'll talk about today, because I probably have 5000 I could share. So, yeah, well, I'll put the link below. I mean, people hear me talk about it sitting all my ad reads. But you know, if you've still got time come to Denver, we'll also be doing our first one day course in Minneapolis, September 15, which is kind of a Tyler's brainchild. I'm really excited to see how that shapes up. And then, of course, Charlotte is in November. So if you miss out on Denver, which is, I think we've only got a handful of tickets left, I think we're pushing 3035, builders, and we try to cap it right around there, that just that intimate setting is so special. But this isn't meant to be a contractor coalition plug, which is fine. Happy to do that. Let's dive into, you know, like any business person and entrepreneur, losers are winners. I mean, so what have you got? I'm a loser again, dude, I was such a loser. Man,
Brad Leavitt 04:39
I thought I was past that, that high school is done. Man. So round two, being a loser. It's funny because, you know, they always say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expect a different result. I learned a painful lesson. This was, oh man. This would have been, you know, seven, eight years ago. O for a high list Hollywood celeb. A lot of people know who this person is, so I'm not going to reveal their name, and it was one of those projects that we were brought in. Bottom line is, there was a big insurance claim right house flooded. They had to rebuild it. We came in, and their goal was to be in by Christmas. As we know, like there's tight timelines to get someone in by the holidays, which is typically not my favorite anyways. And so as we're kind of leading up to this, the plan was to start roughly in February, give us 10 months to do the rebuild. It was going to be fine, you know, we're going to make it work. It'd been tight. We'd make it work. But as what's typically happens, you know, insurance is drawn out the, you know, the legalities of it, getting the check, getting approval, because what the bank or what the insurance is appraising to what the actual cost of construction don't line up. I mean, anyone that's been through that understands this, so we didn't get started to like, May, so now you're like, already behind the clock. So we're just like, we're gonna hit it. We're gonna hit it. And what I realized is, like, trying to make someone happy is always the worst response ever. Because if I would have just sat there in May or June or August and said, Look, Mark, there's no chance when we done December, let's figure out a different place you're going to celebrate the holiday March, you know, they're going to be really upset. They're going to but they can pivot, you know, but now, when you get into December and their lease is up and they have nowhere to stay, or their VRBO or wherever, and their kids and they're expecting Christmas, and you're not done, you're not done. I mean, it just becomes, you know, now you got you're in the crosshairs. And this client yelled at anyone that knows Mike with ECS. Mike with ECS, out in Jersey, happened to be out visiting me, and the client called me. He's like, I've never heard a client talk to something like that, like he's literally just light me up. And he just realized, when I was trying to be the hero, you end up becoming the zero, and it just sets you up for the wrong course. And I'll talk about how that leads into it, because I'm sure you want to say something, but yeah, it just, you know, it's that over commitment, under delivering, that leaves a painful test, you know, painful taste in their mouth, instead of just, you know, being upfront from the beginning.
Mark D. Williams 06:58
No, I mean, it's, I just did last week's episode was literally what just happened. But I actually you shared that story the first time I ever met you in Nashville, and it was, it's, I think that's what's been so valuable and helpful about this series. It reminds us that you'd like to think that you don't have to learn the same mistake again. The problem like, I'm not done, oh yeah, that's the problem. It's almost too easy. All right, what you got for round two there?
Brad Leavitt 07:25
So round two. So here's kind of that, and I'm going to move to the whole point of bringing up that kind of setting the table, if you will, for today. What's funny about that experience is one of the attendees who, you know, Nathan, knew who this was, because he's like, Yeah, this client. I anyways, the cool thing is, fast forward a few years later. So about a year and a half ago, this client and his wife reached out to me, and they're like, Brad, you're the best builder on Instagram. We've been through like, five different builds since then, different experiences, and although it didn't go as planned at the end, you know, we didn't get in, they're like, We admire you. So that's the silver lining. However, I don't know if that's going to happen this round for me. So bottom line is we have, you know, and it's the same thing. And I don't know how we made the same mistake, but we we have a large project. It's a massive renovation. I mean, massive renovation. And the original plan was to do a small scale, like they tend to be. We just want to do X, and all sudden, the scope goes to y, and that's fine. We can do it. We're capable like we're on board. It just got out of hand from the entire design team, us as the building team, the client. So the scope really ended up being, like 7x like seven times what it was going to be. But the problem is that closing date still didn't change. And what happened was, you know, here we are now. The client's supposed to be moving in right now, and the house isn't ready. It's just not ready. And not only is it not ready, but it's not aft quality, ready, which we pride ourselves in, you know, having a complete home and finished. And so now here I am, clients upset they're getting into with my superintendent. I have to remove my superintendent two weeks ago, put a different one on which I rarely ever do. But you think about bringing in a new super two weeks before a house that's has 0% chance of finishing, and the client's frustrated now you're fighting over, you know, I'm paying, I offered to pay them additional costs, you know, to put them in temporary housing because their lease is up. And I'm like, we should have just, what are we doing? Like, we learned this lesson seven, eight years ago in November, December, and really, where I say losers and winners, we just sat down last week and we said, we know this. We need to put on paper. And what I mean by that is for us in our market and other people might think that's crazy, but anyone that falls aft and understands the scale of our homes can understand we have these milestones mark if I don't have cabinetry in by April. I mean, typically I tell clients, you're six months from cabinetry. It might be eight months, depending on size of house, but it's not sooner than six. And some people are like, what, once I have cabinetry? I'm like, 90 days and I'm like, No, I they never. They see
Mark D. Williams 09:55
the visual. And they can now start seeing the space where, before it was framing or sheetrock, they see that. Beautiful cabinet moment. Never mind that cabinets might take three to six weeks to install, depending on how complicated it might be.
Brad Leavitt 10:07
No, it's a great point. And so I think a lot of builders use a milestone at drywall, six months from drywall, you're going to have CFO. I have taken the stance that it's six months. You know, again, it can vary, but it's always minimum six months from cabinetry completion. Had I done that when we're installing cabinetry in December and followed my sop? Yes, the client probably would have been really upset that we're not done April 1, you know, but the reality is, at least I could have went to him and said, This is how it is, like I already know we're going to be here. Hate me now, but, you know, I'd rather June is going to be realistic. And we could have, we could have hit this in June. And I think what happens for us as builders is we're trying to be the hero too often. We think we can do it. You think you can squish all the scope in a minimal amount of time. And what ends up happening, just like here, clients upset trades are walking off the job. Have to switch supers now it's total tension. There was going to be a huge phase two. I don't know if I'm going to get phase two. So now it's interrupting my entire business, and it's kind of a sad tale to and, you know, it's funny. I'm sharing this on the podcast because, you know, I'm pretty vulnerable and open person, as you know, Mark. But you know, I would say, you know, 9090 95 99% of our projects go great. I have great relationships with my clients. But you know what? This one is a failure on all levels. And I think at the end of the day, I could point the finger at a lot of other elements that are involved, but we're responsible, we're the quarterback, and we didn't communicate.
Mark D. Williams 11:33
Yeah, there's a lot of lessons in there. I mean, it's funny too, because you'd mentioned something that I think we can all relate to about anytime we've we invalidate our own SOPs. I mean, I had a similar experience where, you know, I'm building my Misa, who's project, and I don't have a client, and everyone tells me how great building a spec home is. It's the best thing ever. You don't have a client. Oh, man, I got news for you. I think I've worked 10 times harder on this house than I have for any client. A lot of it is because my own expectations, and I am, you know, your own critic, because you want this to be perfect. But my point was that, just a real quick tangent to that is I changed my sop because we didn't have a client. We changed how we operated. I gave the designer, who's super talented, but it was unfair to her. I gave her a five to one veto power. So I Ian. I didn't plan on this, but I made her the GC, super talented designer. Was not fair for her to also be the GC. It led to confusion, to the subs. It led the only I've met. I apologize many times on air about this, but it was only just the fact that, like, I was having a great time, like I love what was happening. And everyone else, the subs, were pissed. The designers were upset, the architect, everyone was upset, except for me, because I just thought, because I just thought I'm the best boss ever. I gave everyone, but the end of the day, what they really wanted was for me to be the captain of my own ship. And so I apologize to everyone. I set out a huge mea culpa, saying it's my fault, please, you know, and in some ways, these moments sort of also validate the people on your team that roll up the sleeves and when it's really dirty and really muddy and messy and painful, they're working nights, they're working weekends, which we don't want to do. I don't want to set up my business to ask people for favors, but man, man, am I thankful for people who are willing because of the loyalty as owners that we have extended to our own team and to our subs when they are called upon, it that they man, you find out real quick where loyalties go beyond just a contract. And I think I suspect you'll find that because they know you're in a tough situation. And yeah, it might have been your fault or your team's fault, but like at the end of the day, I suspect this client will, they'll get over it eventually. It might take some time, might take six months, might take a year, and you might not get that job, but they will respect you for the work that you do. Because no matter what, if you can't, you do have to have the conversation. They can't move into the house until it's aft ready, and if it's not aft ready, whatever that might mean. I'm sorry, it's kind of like the doctor report. Like, I don't want to tell you that it's stage four cancer, but it is now from here on out, here is the treatments, and I think the sooner you rip off the band aid. Have you had that conversation with the client yet or not? Yeah.
Brad Leavitt 14:08
So before I answer that, what are you doing with the stress ball, dude? Am I stressing out that?
14:13
Did you see you knew I had it? Yeah.
Brad Leavitt 14:14
How did you know I had it? Because what's funny is my kids were literally fighting over that this morning. They have the same one. What's that called? Again? What is this call I give?
Mark D. Williams 14:25
My kids have, like, six of them needle, and they're so fun to play with, so I keep it in the studio. And I had I interviewed someone, because I do a lot of mine in person, and I was playing with it the whole time, because it's just something to do. You wiggle your foot. Evidently, I'm like, just doing this. And with this neato,
Brad Leavitt 14:39
my kids can't find a needle, Mom, what is a Neato. And then they grab that this literally was this morning before school. Is classic, though, buddy has the kids.
Mark D. Williams 14:52
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Brad Leavitt 15:44
All right, so he, you know, this is where, this is where it's layered. Because I think, you know, to give a little context of zero sharing that Mark, I mean, there's a little more context to this. It wasn't as cut and dry of us just trying to shove in, you know, six months, even though that's a huge element. But what happened was, along the way, the clients, like I get it. We're adding scope. I mean, they're very understanding, like, we know we're changing things you're not going to finish, but keep in mind, we just need to get in there. You can be in there working after we move in, it's going to be fine. We're gone, you know, every weekend.
16:12
We're gone every weekend. Well, gee thanks.
Brad Leavitt 16:14
Yeah, we're got, we're out of time a lot. You know, we're gone for the summer. So there's, they knew there were going to be lights, slabs. I mean, this, this was communicated from the designer, notwithstanding all this stuff, you know, you know the, hey, we're in the amicable. You can work around the scenes. Here's the reality. There's best practice, there's communication, there's reality. You can tell me that it's fine that I'm in your house. But when you're trying to get kids to school and you're trying to have dinner and cook, and you're, you're running through the operation of life, and you got contractors knocking on your door 6am every day on a school day, like, I don't want, I mean, I'm trying to get my kids to school. I don't need someone in my house right now. And, you know, I come home, so you're coming home Ian from home, or working in your office, and people are, you know, cutting on the wet saw. I mean, so here's the thing. Is, we have protocol for a reason, and as as understanding as a client may or may not have been, you still have to hold your guns, and we did not do the next case and and now we're paying the price for it.
Mark D. Williams 17:11
What will you do? You do a It's funny how often you have to read. It's like scars, you know? How often do you I was actually thinking the other day about this losers or winners, which I still like the title, but I just thought of one the other day, like the story of the scar. My kids the other day asked I have a scar on my hand where I as a teenager, I accidentally stabbed myself with a knife while I was whittling some wood, yeah? And it's a pretty big scar, yeah, exactly right. And, but like, then nobody asks you about the unblemished skin. You're called to attention of the scar, the thing that sort of defines our Mars of the surface, but those lessons, they stick with you. It'll be interesting to see. I mean, the mistake has been made, and you know it. And we're not perfect. We do read, you know. And there's other things in our life. I mean, you know, we have personal things that we're juggling. We have our businesses expanding, and it's easy for a client. I think that's why I know you do this too. I try to humanize the situation as much as Ian, and you're a phenomenal humanizer. I think, I think it's a reason why a lot of people gravitate towards aft, into you specifically. And I think the more like, like, for instance, are you still staying with every six months you have dinner with these people?
Brad Leavitt 18:17
Yeah, we, I am doing that. And I will say the human the one silver lining is we've had numerous commerce conversations on the phone, and part of the reason that led to the superintendent switches, I told the clients, I said, Look, everyone's an extension of me. And they called me back and they said we thought about that comment, and because, you know, I'm very calm like, look, I Ian get riled up. I always tell people, don't confuse my kindness or weakness, and I can lose it, like all of us can. But, you know, I think in most cases, I'm not worried about who's right. I'm worried about getting it right and whether I had in my arsenal 50 reasons why it's not our fault. None of that's relevant. We have this problem. We're trying to get it done. And so when that client called, you know, I even tempered and, you know, let them speak and hear them out. And said, Okay, well, let's problem solve. Can we get an extra 10 days? Can I pay for that? And then when they called me, I said, Hey, I, you know, I don't speak to you that way. If so and so spec spoke to you, we're going to make a switch. And we did, and going back to learning lesson, if you will, on all this is even though we made that same mistake. You know Paul, who a lot of people know that works with me. He says one thing about Brad is he knows we're all going to make mistakes, and we do, but where he gets frustrated is if you're making that same mistake again. And so you know one thing we're going to do in our production meeting that we do regular is really sit down and go through these milestones, like guys as we're communicating closing dates we do have in our contract, which I speak about at the summit, shameless plug here, but I will speak, and do speak about a proper way to when the client can move in, when they're actually allowed to get their keys, and it's in their contract, and it's not dictated by CFO, and I'll just leave that care dangled out there. And the reason we do that because it does allow us to have an aft finished home, and then allows us to finish in that proper order. Ian. And if you deviate from that, and that's where we can just train everyone. Here's the communication, here's the red flags, here's the conversations. Like, we don't want a homeowner moving in early we don't want them, even if it's life circumstances, life or death out there. You know, there's a reason. And unless we're as a board, a member of leadership group, agreeing to this, you know, we can't just go rogue, and I agree, or Spencer does, or our field team like this has to be unanimous that everyone's on board, no different than I'm picking natural stone and the natural stones like you're gonna sign this affidavit or waiver disclaimer that, hey, it's natural stone. It may not look like the stone you got, but at least you're aware of what we're doing here. That was funny
Mark D. Williams 20:37
to bring that up. And I Nashville four years ago, you shared that, how you do that, and I was in the middle of a client, because we've all had it, and somewhat another builder here locally in Minnesota had shared this. I think it was Sven Gustafson from Stonewood. He shared this thought that if you because he had a similar protocol to you, that basically, from the day of CO there's X number of days got to come to contractor coalition to find out how many of those are. But the point we were writing, we rewrote it in our contract too, and I put it on my builder trend schedule so that they can see it. And I tell them, you know, if you are attracted to us because of the quality and of the enjoyment of the process that our past clients have had, and we're not perfect, but if you're going to have the best journey. This is how it is. It'd be a little bit like, actually, that's a great analogy for an airplane. Can you imagine if, like, rather than like, you know, they say, Hey, everyone put their seatbelts on. We're gonna be touching down the next 20 minutes, and, you like, slowly descend all the way down. Everyone knows what's happening. Can you imagine if they were, like, they flew over the city, like, and we're landing, it was just like, a straight, vertical drop. That's crazy. And yet, we've, I did that for 18 years. Like, the like, we would meet on a Monday, we, yeah, I crash landed every single job I did, and somehow we got through it. But like, it would be a Monday, we'd have, we'd meet the client, we'd have four days to do whatever was on this crazy punch list. They'd move in on a Friday. They'd damage the house, then we spent the next six months. This is what Sven used to say, is like, you would spend six months to do two weeks of work, because if I have to go around little Johnny's, you know, pickup schedule and and your work schedule, and when you're home and when you're not home, and forget the inconvenience, but just actually getting into the house, plus the subs, they can't just, it's not everyone gets annoyed at like, hey, that service deck is going to show up at your house between 10 o'clock and 5pm you're like, Well, how in the world am I? And guess what? They'd never show up in that window anyway. And so it's like, we can't do that. So how about we all have a better life? You stay out of the house for X number more days, and we get all of these things done. You move in anything now is on warranty, we'll handle it at the one year. And we're so glad you get to move into your beautiful new home, and as soon as we instituted that, the thing is, we told the client a year ahead of time and a year that's the magic. You cannot do this mid flow. It has to start on day one. And you're 100% right. You have saved me so much heartache and headache. Not that client that, not that that doesn't move, but that has been a kind of a shield. I just say, hey, that's how we operate. And as soon as we believe it, then the client
Brad Leavitt 23:03
will too well. While you live in every stereotype, tell Sven, I love him, but you lived in the frozen tundra, and you have a friend named Sven. Was it frozen? Back on track? Back on track? And that was the comment we had. We had a precom meeting, and you know, Corey brought up a point. He said, Look, Brad, and not just Brad, but we were kind of speaking as a leadership team. And so often, when it's the groundbreaking, we're all pumped. We get out there on side, we have a groundbreaking, you know, put a shovel in the ground. Everyone's pumped. And then you get to the end, and like you said, it's crash landing. What are we doing? And to your point, what we realized is, if we have a closing process similar to our pre construction checklist before we start a project. Well now we have a checklist to completion, and one of that checklist is mandatory in the contract that, yes, we have CFO, and the clients have so many hours after CFO to come do their punch and do the punch walk, and then we have so many days after that to finish that, and so that way you're not fighting the client moving in with the house not ready. And then the client in the home saying, hey, well, this warranty is now bleeding into punch, which is bleeding back and forth, and I don't want to pay your last check, and there's no clear definition, and it starts getting really muddy. Yeah, I was
Mark D. Williams 24:11
just gonna make one final joke, and then we'll end it. It's like the highest thing, your soil is so hard, the golden shovels that you give your clients. I mean, you know that? How many shovels Have you broken you can't dig anything in Arizona.
Brad Leavitt 24:22
Listen, these groundbreakings are hilarious.
Mark D. Williams 24:25
Why don't you just do like a golden piece of dynamite and have some fun. We just
Brad Leavitt 24:28
need, like a bobcat or something like, they go out there and they literally hit the ground, and it's just like the little tip of the shovel will go and you'll flick like a little pebble. And luckily, at the last groundbreaking, they had a little wash. So when you have like, a wash, you know, like, flood zones here in Arizona, it's pretty Sandy, like, think of, like, sand in the bunker, yeah? So they went to this wash, and they were doing the wash because, if it's on the normal slab on grade, where the house would be, yeah, so we did this.
Mark D. Williams 24:51
It was because you're doing it for Instagram, right? You're doing it for a picture. Basically, it's obviously no one digs with golden shovels. But it was funny, because I had my team buy, so I. Because everyone's doing, like, Fine, we'll do this dumb thing. So I had I had him, I had him, I had him. Buy one, and we should, we shoved it in the ground. Like, the things are, like, Fisher Price the blade, like, just in Minnesota, we can actually dig in our ground. That's real dirt. We're real humans up here, and not much of GIA monsters. And so anyway, you stick the dump. I saw one of those at the zoo. By the way, I was at the San Diego Zoo last week, and I was gonna send you a picture of the Gila monster. I'm like, this is where like, this is where it belongs in a cage, not at your house, where it can bite you and kill you anyway, this dumb shovel just bends. And I'm like, What a joke.
Brad Leavitt 25:29
It is a Gila monster. Just so you know, Gila, Gila with a, H, yeah, let's it's G, i, l, a, but it's pronounced Gila.
Mark D. Williams 25:38
Well, Gila monster is how we pronounce it up here. Now, why don't you go ahead and Gila, out of here.
Brad Leavitt 25:45
You shove it all that snow this morning.
Mark D. Williams 25:47
Ah, you know nothing but sunshine here. Baby, curious builder, over and out. Thanks for coming in, Brad, thank you. That's what we call hard landing. That's like,
Brad Leavitt 25:57
that's a hard landing. Thanks
Mark D. Williams 26:02
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