Episode 119 - Teaching Builders to Think Better with Mark LaLiberte
#119 | Mark LaLiberte | Construction Instruction | Teaching Builders to Think Better
Industry veteran and Construction Instruction co-founder Mark LaLiberte joins Mark to share insights from his 30+ year career in building science. From sustainability to trade education, Mark is on a mission to raise the standards of the construction world—and he’s not afraid to speak candidly about where we’re still missing the mark.
Listen to the full episode:
About Mark LaLiberte
Mark LaLiberte is the co-founder and partner at Construction Instruction. He has dedicated over 30 years to the building industry. Through his lectures, site assistance, Building Better Homes video series and his mobile App, he provides builders, architects and manufacturers with an in-depth look at the current and future state of housing. His work has earned him a Lifetime Achievement Award from the Energy and Environmental Building Alliance (EEBA), where he developed the highly acclaimed Houses that Work lecture series. The HTW Series has been delivered for over 16 years by the Ci team in 100’s of North American cities.
He was the 2013 Building Science co-chair for the Hanley Wood Vision 2020 project and he has provided technical assistance and a voluntary board position to the Cold Climate Housing Research Center in Fairbanks, Alaska for over 10 years. Mark also helped develop the training curriculum for the 2012 Repair Corp Project for Habitat for Humanity that provides assistance to improve existing housing for our Veterans.
He works with various manufacturers to assist in developing products and services for the next phase of efficient homes. Mark is the co-creator of the Ci App and animation studio, which developed the number one mobile App in the construction industry and builds realistic state of the art contextual animations on building science concepts and technical installation practices.
His passion for educating lies in knowing how vital the building industry is. Building healthy, safe, durable and efficient homes has an effect on the buyer, the builder, the economy and the planet.
Resources:
Visit Construction Instruction’s Website here
Follow Construction Instruction on Instagram
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Mark LaLiberte 00:04
Ian. I live here in Phoenix. I have triple glazed windows in my house. I have a steam humidification system for the for the wintertime. I have an ERV in my house for interior respiratory health, not because of whether you can afford it. It's the way that human beings function best. So as an industry, we just have to set the bar on where do you live? What's the client's conditions and expectations? Today,
Mark D. Williams 00:32
in the curious builder podcast, we had mark a lot Levitt day on talk about a fasten your seat belt approach. There is a lot of information covered in here. So if you're ready to learn a lot and elevate your business and understand how you can set your company up for the next decades of your business, as well as set yourself apart from your peers, you're going to want to listen to this episode without further ado, here's Marc la libertay. Welcome to curious bidder Podcast. I'm Mark Williams. Your host today, I have a very special guest. I've got Marc la libertay, originally from Minnesota, but now, from what cave Valley? Is it? Cave Valley or something, Cave Creek, that is a that's a baller. Name Cave Creek.
Mark LaLiberte 01:07
Good Creek, Arizona. What a cool place. See. What do you think about the town? Is quite cool. It's still a bit throwback. It's kind of a cowboy town. Still horses walk down the streets, cowboy bars. There's still a rodeo in town, and there are still biker bars. So on biker weekends, the streets are lined with motorcycles with lawyers that put on the hat with a little ponytail in back that comes out. But people are jamming and having a good time. It's a great weather, of course, I think it is and and I love it here. So how
Mark D. Williams 01:33
it'd be really interesting to contrast the Minnesota winters, especially as we dive deep on construction instruction between the two climates. We've talked a little bit about that offline before, but for those that don't know who you are, why don't you give us a brief intro? You've, you know, obviously you've got construction instruction. Maybe it's just give a quick journey overview, and we'll kind of dive into some other questions I've got a little bit later. That sounds
Mark LaLiberte 01:52
great. Well, I in about 1984 I started a company called Shelter supply in Minneapolis. We sold products of energy efficiency in nature, energy recovery ventilation systems. They were heat recovery back then they hadn't come up with the ERV side of it yet. And then we were selling tapes and sealants and ventilation systems. We consider ourselves experts at selling products nobody wanted, so that's always an interesting exercise. You've become pretty good at helping trade contractors, and especially heating contractors understand what a ventilation system is. Why do you build tight buildings once you just let them leak? So that comes back into the late 80s, and then in 2000 I started a company called Levitt, or called building knowledge, and we were doing building diagnostics and building performance stuff. And I was speaking still nationally. I've been speaking nationally for probably almost 40 years. Last year, I think I did 150 flights, and I'll do at least that many this year. And then in probably, I would say 2020, 10 or so, we started a company called construction instruction that was myself, Justin Wilson and Gord Cook, two remarkable individuals they are. And we did our first prototype of CI live in Phoenix. And after two years of realizing how incredibly hot it is here in the summertime, which we knew, we did a great proof of concept. And once we were really comfortable with the concept and the layout, we then moved to Denver and rented a 12,000 square foot building where we have classes and do all kinds of really cool stuff. Like last week was a class on advanced HVAC systems. Inside the classroom, there's seating for 50 and then the lab in the back, which is probably another 8000 square feet. We have a house, 500 square foot house built with multiple systems and read duct work and mechanical systems from ERVs to HRVs to mini splits, dehumidification systems, a pseudo crawl space, a conditioned attic. And then, of course, we have all the lab where we've got wall sections on mock ups on wheels. We roll them around. We have a fan section, and we do water testing on windows with builders. So install a window and then let it cure, and then the next morning, put it in a spray rack and spray rack and put it under pressure, and everybody gets to see it leak, and go, I do that like I got a call back to my office and say, don't do that anymore. It's leaking. And so it's always kind of fun to see that happen. So I would say that that's pretty much the current history. I also work with a company that I co founded as well called all levitate consulting, where I do consulting on some Ian homes, and mostly work in that in the West Coast, on that side. So
Mark D. Williams 04:19
I was going to say, that's it. You've got a few things going on. Yeah. You know, I could, we could spend the whole podcast, and it would actually be interesting just to hear, you know, a lot of this podcast as people that have been tuning in here for last two and a half years, it's really entrepreneurship. I've often argued that most people get into building not because they're great at business, but because they loved building, or they found themselves good at it. Or you got to be a painter or a cabinet maker or whatever it is. And then you have to learn entrepreneurship as like a new thing. It's a little bit like I know people that are doctors, and they go to school, med school for 810, 12 years, depending on their specialty. But then, you know that the idea that they would also know how to run a business practice, it's like a very small Venn diagram. But you know, here you have all these small builders and remodelers. Is all across the country, and all it is, sort of, it's just remarkable at how much perseverance there is in this industry. And kind of can do attitude. And I, I mean, we could spend a whole session just talking about that, but I am, it is just, I love hearing stories like this, where I'd love to know, like, how did you start? Like, why did you pick this? Were you an engineer? It seems like you must have an engineering background, or do you got one by school of hard knocks? But why this industry? Why were you interested in even doing shelter products way back then?
Mark LaLiberte 05:31
Yeah, this is a good question. I think somebody asked me the other day that said, why do you continue to travel and work so hard? And I said, if you have an entrepreneurial spirit, you learn early on, I've worked with myself my whole life that you you just don't say no to very many things. You find out the things that you will say no to which are right on the boundary, but your your scale ends up being fairly malleable. I can accept things and go, yep, that'll work. That will work. That's within my wheelhouse, or it's just slightly outside my wheels, but I'm confident I can accomplish it. Here's the fee, here's the structure. If someone says yes, you're like, damn. Someone said, Yes, I gotta go do this. But I think it's a really important thing. And I back in like 1980 as you know, in late 70s, when the first oil embargo came in place, before you were born. It was one of those things that I'm just kidding, but you're a little teeny baby. I'm sure I was 1980 Yep. So when you look at that thing, we saw the oil and bar come in. It was the for the first time, someone said, you can't have the energy that you've always had. And the US kind of went, wait, wait a minute, what do you mean? We can't have what we want and what we expect? So then the conservation market kind of took over, as with the Jimmy Carter years, you know, put on a sweater and you're going to be fine. And we're all like, oh, wait, I'm putting on a sweater. So I would say it, by probably late 80s, I would go at the University at Duluth, and then finished my degree at the Energy Education Center in Red Wing, which was a degree in solar engineering. And so then I got done with that and started a company called Shelter supply. And that was really the evolution of looking at the assumption that the industry would naturally move towards better insulation, better performing structures, advancements in ventilation, heating systems, cooling systems, enclosure design, blower door testing, as I did my first blower door in about 1983 and watched we didn't know we were doing right? So we turn on the blower door. Somebody downstairs is running the blower door, and we're up in the attic, caulking gaps. And then they would yell back and go, Okay, we're at 1500 cfm. Stop talking. So you go, okay, so we magically created that 1500 cfm of leakage was probably about right, and then you would consider the house was better sealed. Now, of course, we have the diagnostic tools to let us know what's depressurization concerns. I just did a depressurization test yesterday on a probably 20,000 square foot house with two open hearth fireplaces. And so this strategy about saying, What does enclosure tightness mean? And then once we determine what that is, then we determine what are the impacts under depressurization that could cause harm. Could it be combustion, spillage, fireplace backs, back drafting, or is it just a depressurization that brings air in from, I don't know where. So where do we make up air? And in this house, we have a makeup air handler. So I can think all of this is about this evolution that once we started talking about it, we thought things would move faster. And I'm, you know, I'm in 2025, right now, going, Oh, wow, we're starting to think about the incorporation of these details in every house. And I would say it should not have taken 42 years. When we got started, we thought it would probably be a dozen years, and people would go, of course, that's the way we'll do things. But now it's still a slog mark. I mean, I still go in marketplace and go, How many of you think we're building too tight? I'm like, Oh, wait, wait, but I would say that there is far less of that today than there used to be in the future. People like, no, no, you got to build tight. You just got to provide proper ventilation. I mean,
Mark D. Williams 08:51
I think, I think adoption in education, I guess I'm not a scientist to comment on this, other than just from a lot of different things I've observed over the years. Like, I think you get into these certain enclose or style, or used to fads, or we're used to styles that come and go, and there are certain classic styles that sort of are always there. I feel like education, especially around building science, and it's such a deregulated industry, I think that's probably been one of our Achilles heels, right? Like, I build differently than another person builds and that guy. And yes, we have codes that sort of regulate it, but because nobody, there's no formal training to be a builder or to be a remodeler. And yes, you can get licenses and whatnot. But honestly, let's be honest, it's a couple hour test that you study for, and it actually be interesting. It'd be really interesting to go back and take the test I took 2321 years ago, to see if I could even pass it. I don't know. Maybe I know more now than I thought I did, but like everyone has a different knowledge gap. I bring this up only that you kind of have the Wild West. It's no wonder that all of us, builders, or whatever our business is, now, we try to differentiate ourselves through service or creativity or artistry. But it's still very it's still. Still not very regulated, in my opinion. Would you agree?
Mark LaLiberte 10:03
Well, it's a good it's a good observation. Mark. I've known you since the days of Minnesota. You've always been an extraordinary builder, and care so much about not only your clients, but your employees, the trades you work with, and then, of course, the end product you build. That's an important thing that really differentiates you. I would say, as you mentioned, services, but it's really who you are, you know. But I would say that you know, when you look at the building code, you know we go through the 2012 nine, even 12, the 1518, 2125 or 2427 you look at those progressions of codes, and each one of them started stepping up from Hey, you should be careful that you don't electrocute yourself to Hey, you should really think about thermal insulation in different climate zones. So we have seven, seven or eight basic climate zones in the US. And started going through the strategy, saying, Well, wait a minute, if you do this, this has a repercussion, so we better fix that next time. And then you have ASHRAE thinking about, how do we look at indoor air quality? And saying, there's a standard 62 two and 6213 that say, you know, human respiration needs to have a steady supply of air, and you can't depend on leakage, because there's no I mean, if you ask your one of your clients, by the way, I just want to know how big a hole Do you want me to leave in the house? I really don't want any holes. You're like, oh, so then we're gonna have to put do something about that. You know, it's crazy thought process. But your respiration cycle is about 23,000, breaths a day. So as we start looking at the building enclosure and say, as we incrementally tighten the building and put people inside, then it's a natural progression that we should understand the physics that go with that. So it isn't even about education in the industry as much as it's about say, What do you think your clients need? Do they want to be comfortable, safe, healthy? Do they expect their investment to be durable for 100 years, regardless of how long they live there? Should it be esthetically pleasing? Should it be affordable to operate and affordable to maintain? Those are all and even sustainability, right? Those are all things that are an expectation by the clientele. The building industry is still, as you said, very well, it's sort of got a little wild west thing to it, where it's, I'm going to bring in the trades, because, remember, you technically brought you mark. You don't build any houses, your trades and your process does, but you're not out there
Mark D. Williams 12:16
big. I mean, I'm I often say, I'm a marketer who happens to build. And I love artistry. I love and I love people. I'd be creative, but I often, I actually have used it as a sales line to my clients, like, if you see me working on your house, call the PM, because I'm ruining I mean, it's kind of like knowing half the people listening to you right now have either tuned out or tuned in.
Mark D. Williams 12:42
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Mark LaLiberte 15:45
mark. It's a great observation. You know, we don't have any trade schools anymore, so the trade schools are long gone. So, and we see that resurgence possibly going on now the idea of creating some trade schools, but there aren't very many high school kids that want to go into the business of roofing, siding, planning buildings. So we really are left with, I don't mean left with we really have a group of people who have learned their craft by the person who either went ahead of them, or they come in and they want to be a sucker contractor, and they go, Hey, you go be with Bob. And Bob's one of our lead guys. He's going to teach you. So that's kind of this evolution of how we train now at CI live. We have builders bring their trades with them. I was at a training session for a builder out of Salt Lake City. They actually in Park City and the COVID Canyon and fantastic group of people. They do phenomenal job. And I was telling them that they need to improve their HVAC. You guys got to get this better. So they invited and said they wanted their HVAC contractor to come along. Well, we sat, I sat in the room, and they're in the back, and the HVAC guys are about three rows down, like this, okay, we're coming because you made us come, but we don't really want to be here. And so they sat there. And then, after the first day, their hands kind of dropped down, and then they got a little bit better, and they go, oh so airflow, building, performance, comfort, durability, that I guess we don't know as much about that as we thought we did. Hook up a box, run a bunch of duct work to it, you should be fine. And we're learning that that's not always the case. That we have to help our coach our trades through. We have to set expectations in terms of performance of a builder here in Phoenix, he sends out a very good list of criteria that this is what I expect you to bid on, because this is the criteria from an industry. So if you're the plumber, I expect these kind of fittings, this kind of detail, like this kind of work I want you to pressure test when you're done. So here now, go Bid my project. Now if somebody goes, There's no way I'm bidding that you're like, perfect. You're not for me. Somebody bids in the back. Now you can compare apples to apples. Heating contractors, I want you to put temperature like for here, temperature of 120 degrees. I want you to maintain a 70 degree interior temperature. I want you to make sure you've got humidification or dehumidification, mechanical ventilation. How they put that on the sheet, send that out to the trades. The trades come back with either I don't know what you're talking about, can you help me? Or I can absolutely bid that that's what I do. And you begin, as you do now. You do this mark, you begin creating a group of people that you co educate together. And you say, Listen, I have a builder in Denver. He says, I'm not paying a dumb tax on an elevated price by someone who doesn't know what they're doing. If you don't know how to do this aspect. You should go out and watch a YouTube video, go out and learn it, but you need to catch that and then bring it back to me. I'm not going to pay you double to learn something that you don't know, because that's the normal process here, right? You go, hey, I want you to do this. Guy goes, oh yeah, that's going to be a 10,000 How did you come up with that number? He goes, Well, I pulled it out of, you know, and and so the strategy is, don't, don't do that. How much time do you think it'll take? I have no idea. Well, let's work together. You put it in and keep track of the hours that you find are above and beyond what you did previously. Let's say it's 10 extra hours. What do you want for an hourly rate? 100 bucks done? $1,000 is better.
Mark D. Williams 18:56
It's funny. So a practical example for those listening. So we're doing this house right now called Misa whose which is a home all based on wellness. And I worked a lot of brand partners. And we're, you know, shout out to stego. I actually saw him on Nick schifr project, and I think Brad might use stego as well. We don't, I don't see him a lot around here, and but, you know, 15 mil poly and I, we're working a deal with them, so we'll do some photography and videography in exchange for the material. It's not super expensive, but just something we can do. And my concrete Mason, I said, Hey, we're including this. And he said that stuff takes a lot of time to to put in. That was, that's why I'm bringing it up. Literally, I had this conversation yesterday, and I said, Okay, guys, this isn't an option. This is what we are doing. And he goes, Well, is this going to be your standard going forward, or is this just one of Mark's ideas? I'm like, I was like, well, played. That is actually pretty accurate. But yes, this is likely going to be my standard going forward. I'll tell you what I'll do. You'd keep track of your hours, because he goes, it will take us longer. I said, No problem. I'd be happy to pay you for it. But why don't we just do time and material? You all supply the material, you put it in, and then let's. Track it. Let's find out how much more time it really takes, and I'll use this as an education point of view. I mean, that's literally what the podcast is here. I'm asking you about education. I guess I've been doing it without thinking about it. It's like, I like educating other people because I like learning. I have a hard time retaining some of the knowledge that I learned, but I do like the learning process. I find it interesting. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, going back to your you're inviting your subs to help with you. One of the questions I have as a mini time out here, as you're laying out this path forward, is, you know, a lot of us, I've been very lucky sort of out punch my weight by really having dedicated subcontractors and trade partners for I've been building for 21 years. And you know, most of the categories, I rely on one or two subs. That's it. Now, some of them haven't been able to make the transition of as I've sort of escalated my brand and the homes that we build, and that's fine. And sometimes a client will say, Hey, can I can I get a couple options here? But by and large, like, I've had one HVAC company for 35 years now, they are, oddly enough, just sold their company, and the new company doesn't want to work on new homes. So I'm like, Okay, I guess I gotta find a new one. But my point is, is, like, if you are a builder and you work with multiple trade partners versus one, because I think on the rarity and having one subcontractor per category for a majority of them to fly, you know, three HVAC companies out to con to Colorado seems like a pretty big ask, I feel like you train, you kind of devote your time to like one and then you kind of make them the blueprints. Kind of like, when people want to bid out multiple lumber yards, because they have multiple relationships, everyone kind of does it differently. You almost need, like, one spec list take off all the numbers in terms of the bids. You just keep the takeoff numbers, and you're like bid, because no one really knows. And so even, like a framing bid, I told someone the other day, like there was $100,000 swing on framing. I'm like, there is not $100,000 of differences in this house. So what are you thinking versus? And he had a great example. He said, I've worked with this architect before, and they do a lot of things differently than most architects do, and we are taking in the shorts on the other home that we're building right now. And so we are bidding this strong until we see all the details. I'm like, thank you. That's really good information, just knowing that at a surface value there's without you telling me that there's no way I would pick you. Now we're going to get another chance when that was a price test anyway, I guess it just allows us to interact with our sub. So I there's a terrible question, how do you advise builders to bring people to construction instruction if they have multiple
Mark LaLiberte 22:29
vendors? Well, yeah, but, and I was going to just mention that when you mentioned that flying your trade contracts, you don't fly anybody there. If you want to be in my my trade contractor, and we're doing hundreds of 1000s of dollars of business. You fly yourself to Minnesota, to Denver, you learn more about your craft. So I'll give you the opportunity. Here's where it is. I expect you to be there. So here's what I'm going when you get back, it'll be a game changing for you, but I think it's critical that you attend. So you need to go. You pay the bill, you pay the lodging, you eat dinner. This is a way for you to get better. If you don't want to do that, you're not my guy. So most of the trades that come, they pay their way because you're saying, Look, I'll give you like I'm within Brad's office today, he's going to give some hate trade contractor $3 million worth of work in a year. I think you can afford $1,000 fee to go learn something so you don't pay because you're saying, I want to see how dedicated you are to what I need you to do in the future. Imagine if you're one of my trade contractors. For the next 10 years, we are going to exchange tremendous value. I'm going to hire you nearly exclusively because, watch you include education and improved process in what you do. You're my guy. I worked in I was doing a lecture in upstate New York not that long ago, and I'm doing a talk, and it's for the HBA New York, upstate New York, and there's an old guy in the back. I'm sitting like this, and he comes up after the talk, and he goes, want to tell you something? I said, Okay. And he said, I've got some of the same trades I've had for 30 years. And he goes, my level of expectation is high, but I also reward my trades by telling them the quality of work they're doing and what I appreciate. And he goes and I tell them that when they're done, they sign my house. I don't care if they're signing the back of a piece of drywall, a stud, a concrete slab, but would you put your name on what you just accomplished? And he said, When I asked him to do that, they were like, You know what? I'll be right back. I'm not ready to put my name on what I just did. And he said, When I had people sign that product, he goes, I use that in marketing of my homes. Your homes are signed by all the craftsmen that went before to accomplish the tasks that they did. And I think that that has a little strategy about, how do we how do we get people to feel engaged in that there's a passion that goes with what you do. If I get to install cabinets, flooring, concrete, it's either just damn hard work, which it is. But how do I get you passionate about the fact that this is a legacy product that you're going to have for 100 150 years. Multiple families will live here. Let's do this right? That the first time, because it's not something you can go back and fix later. I was in Nashville last week, and I just had said to one of the builders there. I said, So when do you want to do the insulation? Well, either now or now you get one shot at this. So what kind of things are first try do them? Well, they come back and act as the future of the quality of this product. I
Mark D. Williams 25:21
think one of the barriers to a lot of this technology and information is to the average buyer, it's not sexy, it's not cabinetry, it's not windows, it's not tile floors. I don't get to see it. You know, I might do all of these things, and it costs doesn't matter. And I know we can talk later about it saves you money on sizing and all that stuff. But let's just say you do all these things. I do external, like, we're doing our 12 on this Mesa Hoos, because I want to explore with it. I want to try to do no spray foam if I can, because I want to reduce off gassing. So I'm gonna do all rock wall now. I will have to do some spray foaming on a flat deck, as well as my my rims. But like, there's kind of a place for everything. And I lost my question here as I got excited about me. So who's, oh, well, shoot. Anyway,
Mark LaLiberte 26:06
this, well, I think you're, you're going down that path about the trade base.
Mark D. Williams 26:09
Oh, what's No, it's sexy. I know what it is. It's like, it's hard sometimes to tell your clients about what it is. And I think part of this, we do need to be educated, because we have a short window to educate our client. And what is sort of the Mark Williams standard. Because sometimes we don't actually need to tell the client, like we here's a reputation. This is what is this what's important to you? This is how I would build it on the professional most of the time they're going to look as long as you don't hesitate and you're confident, like, great. I'm going to go with what Mark said. Because, you know, obviously he cares about this more than I do. And there are certain things that you involve them with. It's kind of interesting. Lately I very rarely have I had clients. Actually, in my 21 year career, I've, I've put in one geothermal system, no solar systems, and I bring it up to all my clients for the last 10 years, and all of them, and part of it is clientele age, I think. And I'm not saying that as you're older, you don't care as much, but usually, in my opinion, they're green, bad greenies. They want to make money, they want to see a return on their investment. And we do have an issue in the United States, the average person lives in their home for like, seven years. Most of the payoff on this stuff is beyond that, where I think you go to Europe, and it's multi generational. We'll save that for another podcast, unless you have some insight on that. But I but when I talk about wellness, if I talk about how you feel, like triple pane windows is now all of a sudden, I've never done triple pane window. I'm doing three homes right now triple pane windows. I'm doing it Misa, who's and then my client, who knows what I'm doing, says, Oh, why are you doing triple pane I'm like, did you know I do care about the solar heat coefficient, and I care that it's more energy efficient. But honestly, the reason I'm doing it is for quiet. I love going to a cabin or being in the mountains and being alone, and I like that sense of quiet. And they said, Oh, we're by a road. Can we do triple pain in our in our home? And I honestly probably wouldn't have even brought it up to them. And now it's people are going after trouble thing because they want sound, not even now, yes, you get the extra benefit of the solar and the energy. But like, I think it's finding the things that interest people, and that's where as builders, we need to be a, educated, but B, we have to ask better questions to sort of lead the client down that road. And they may not be interested, they may not care, but at least we can say this is, this is a benefit of this system.
Mark LaLiberte 28:17
Yeah. Mark, you. You know, you hit on you. Ian, quite a few points there. I would say that, you know, we have to be careful. 80% of what a homeowner is interested in is what was done that they'll never see. So what they see they walk in the house and it's got, well, the countertops look amazing. Good job in the cabinets. I have no idea what's behind the drywall, and technically, I really don't care. So there has to be a decision that you as a building company make that says, you know, we're only going to install our walls with this type of insulation because it's what we believe is the right thing to do. I could care less about that short term payback mark, that seven year thing, whatever you're building this house to last for 100 years. So the next person you sell it to in seven years is going to go tell me about the house. Well, my here's my bills and here's the comfort the house. The house is amazingly quiet, and we love living here. Actually, other rooms have a really remarkable temperature difference, no temperature difference. Which is the best house we've ever lived in. That's what this is about. But you don't go, Hey, these guys are going to just move in and move out quick. So let's do it well, then make a collapsible house. We're building a house for generations. So we say, insulate it the first time. Well, make it tight. Well, design the HVAC system to be designed. You're not going to replace that either. The ducts are buried in the walls. Use excellent piping. Put the right things in. What can you replace? Countertops, cabinets, flooring material. But there has to be a level mark where you as a builder and as other builders, where you do not copper compromise on the enclosure. It needs to be watertight, airtight and thermally insulated, so whatever it is, you don't leave that up to the client. It's like saying to the doctor, say I was online, and I'm thinking, you should maybe cut the other way, because maybe that would be a faster way to get there. And he would go, Well, you would die. So how about if we don't do that? You're like, Yeah, let's go. Go with your idea. So you your clients aren't going to come to you knowing if you give them a choice of, would you like our 21 or an R 28 which one costs more? That's that's not you go we install an R 23 bad in all our houses, or we blow our fiberglass. I
Mark D. Williams 30:14
mean, again, a practical illustration to your point. And I think this is, I only say this because I think it isn't. It's right in line with what you're saying. We had a home recently where for our standard, for sure. Now, the last couple years, we've done our six for and that we use a zip product. I'm sure there's other ones out there, but that's the one that we like, and it you've got your foam to the outside, and you insulate. And I wanted to try to do the flash and bat method. We wanted to do two inches of foam on the inside of that, and then, so we're experimenting a little bit now. We're talking to our building knowledge partners, and we're saying there's pros and cons. And here's the thing, there's really not a one size fits all approach to really anything. It's like classic belt and suspenders, and which is honestly frustrating for an entrepreneur, you would. We all want the magic wand, the elixir of wonder, like this, one thing will solve all my problems, but it's when you get into all these systems, it takes a lot more effort. And going back to education, I get why people find this hurdle of kind of getting educated to shut down. You got to want to do it. And unless you get your team sort of passionate about it, like you're going to constantly hit your head against the wall.
Mark LaLiberte 31:20
Well, I would say that's true, except that when I'll give you example, there's a builder in Seattle. His name is the company's called Murray Franklin. They've been around for a long time, and they sent some of their lead lead interior architectural team and their production team, and they sent him to Ci live. When the guy came back, he goes, I had no idea what I didn't know, he said, so now I'm excited about this. I knew that there was stuff around this, but because I didn't know, I just let the trades go. Yeah, you don't need that. Oh, okay. And he's like, no, no, we're doing that. The guy so you don't want to do that. He's like, Absolutely, we want to do that. So all we're talking about is physics and math in a way that you're like, so if you understand that, well, you have to be the person that says, This is what we're doing, and here's why. And if you don't know the why, they can flip you around till they go, like, did you know that's going to cause this? And that'll be bad. You're going, Oh, I don't want to do bad, so yeah, we better not do this. You're like, actually, that's not what happens. Here's the dew point, here's the temperature difference, here's why we do it. How well does a sale go when the other person knows more than you do, or knows less than you do. So if you know more than the trade contractor, suddenly start going, you know, I don't know if you're my guy, and because you need to know what I know. So I would say, increase your knowledge base about the science and physics of buildings. Heat flows warm to cold, moisture moves from more to less, you know, that kind of stuff. Once you learn that, then you go, like, so if the moisture goes here and it goes there. Yeah, that's what would happen like, exactly. So the insulation on the outside raises the dew point in the cavity to make sure it's less at risk. You're going to go, this is why we do it.
Mark D. Williams 32:56
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Mark LaLiberte 35:44
it, but, but let's just say something. Mark, though, let's just say that, you know you have to tell a client in order for us to live in Minnesota and have cold conditions and manage the interior conditions. Here's the systems we put in place to do so that's what you have to say. You'll, you'll be having triple glazed windows because it gets down to minus 20, I wouldn't build a house in Minnesota Mark without triple glazed windows. It makes no sense at all. So now you got a client that says we're going to provide an energy recovery system that'll moderate your relative humidity based on production levels and the outdoor conditions. If we do put in a humidification system, it'll be a steam humidifier that will readjust with the outdoor conditions. The colder it gets, it'll lower the RH but you've got, they don't want to say, by the way, you have to do this. They're going to say, look at I could sit in my car and regulate my temperatures. So my house at 10 times the price, 100 times the price, should have some of that control. So you'll say, Yeah, you're right. It's going to stay this way. We're going to manage the interior conditions. Manage the interior quality, and we're going to manage the fact that if the house stays right around 30 to 40% RH the wood won't crack. The materials should, should perform. They do not have an option to manage that level of variability. You can't say, Well, I didn't know you wanted good air quality. You're like, well, of course you did. I didn't know you wanted to manage the interior humidity? Well, of course, that's the climate they live in. I live here in Phoenix. I have triple glazed windows in my house. I have a steam humidification system for the for the winter time when the moisture levels tend to decrease and I add a little bit of moisture. I have an ERV in my house for interior respiratory health, not because of whether you can afford it. It's the way that human beings function best. So I need fresh air for cognitive clarity, and I need humidity to keep my skin from, you know, not, not giving me trouble. So as an industry, we just have to set the bar on, where do you live? What's the client's conditions and expectations? Now, if you say, by the way, here's our parameters. No, not options. Is there anything I should know? Well, I had a client. I had PTSD. I need to sleep at 65 degrees. No problem. What we'll do is put a system in to help control that bedroom so that at night you can lower the temperature by a zone that will allow that to drop. Thank you. That's perfect. But I don't say, Do you have a special humidity in mind? They're gonna go, no, just comfortable. So you we have that. We have to know the human condition, which you do well enough to say, here's our baseline. If you don't want to do that, you should say, then I shouldn't build for you. And they're gonna come back and go, you're gonna leave, and you're like, listen, I know what it's like to live in a home in this climate, and I know what my clients expect. So I'm giving you a house that's in the proper point price point and the proper level of quality with a level of performance and durability that you should expect at any price point. So if you go to another builder, I would just expect that you would ask to make sure those things are included. They won't go to another builder, they're going to go, okay, yeah, we want the things you just said, let's just do that. But we have to be clear about it and not assume that they know enough to add the feature that we know should be in there anyway.
Mark D. Williams 38:47
One of the things that I wanted to ask you about is you live, have lived in two extreme climates. Good friends with Brad and I always give them a hard time when your summers are like 120 or like you guys get 40 days in a row above plus 120 I'm like, I need the cold man. And he's always he's like, I can't handle anything below freezing. You've built and advised builders in Minnesota and in Arizona without spending the next hour on it. What are some there's there are some benefits to building in extreme climates, I would imagine, because we're sort of forced to do things based on our climate. Could you give us some observation? You go all over the country with two extremes. You've got a hot extreme and a cold extreme, and then you've got the middle of the country, which maybe they ever I mean, right now, with a weather change, it seems like every climate has extremes. Just walk me through a little bit of what you've seen from your time in Minnesota to your time in Arizona. And I'd like to obviously talk a little bit about the home that you built here after this is done, but just just, really some observations on how these extreme weather and extreme climate has actually sort of pushed the building industry in the right direction. Because we sort of have had to, yeah,
Mark LaLiberte 39:56
I think that that matters, and it's much more than cold and hot. You know, if you looked I was. Like I said, I was in Nashville and Indianapolis last week. Those are marketplaces that have winters and they have summers. The Summers are hot and humid, the winters are cold and dry. A lot of variation. They might get 40 inches of rain a year, and Nashville gets 45 inches of rain a year. So you look at all the parameters, and if you said that every state in the US, I'll be in Washington State next week in Seattle, very different climate springtime. They've got moisture and mold condensing in the bottom of the roof decks, if they built the seat of the house and framed it. November, extraordinary levels of complexity. And the good thing to be honest with you about Minnesota is it's either really cold or it's hot and humid. And so you have, you have challenging conditions. One of the most complex climates in the country is Minnesota. But if you look at all the climates Texas, when you talk about Matt and the things that he goes through, hot, humid, damp, rainy winter or winters and summers, they're always kind of crazy. What you find is that the more you build the house to be thermally efficient, high performance windows, excellent water management and improved indoor conditions. It doesn't matter where you build that house. So in Arizona, I built a house with our 30 walls, our 60 roof deck, triple glazed windows and extraordinarily airtight with mechanical ventilation and a VRF heat pump. What is different about that Mark than what I built would if I could, I put that house in Minnesota, and you'd go in a heartbeat. So if you look at the building enclosure as climate varies, all that happens for me is that my interior conditions maybe are a little bit easier to meet. I might say that in the summertime, we've got people here with eight and $900 electric bills. I don't have that. So I do have a solar system on my roof. I do have a battery storage in my house, providing a nice balance. But my house is so quiet and it's so comfortable that I'm like, Well, this design, it's ICFs and sip roof and everything. But my house could easily fit in almost all of the climate zones. All the windows are properly flashed. We get six inches of rain a year. Philadelphia gets 60 inches of rain a year. Would you still flash windows in Arizona well and flash them in Philadelphia well? So just do them all the right way. Do every window flash them properly? Use weather protection. If you do that in every climate, then you're not affected by the variations. What's going to happen in 10 years in Arizona, I don't know. How about 20 years? I don't know. Could the rain pick up? Could it get drier? You know what this house is going to sit for 100 years? What's the chance of Minnesota varying the climate a bit by 100 years from now because of whatever the hell happens? Build a house tight, efficient, durable, make sure that it can manage the conditions, put the stego under the slab and go like this. I'm not sure what's coming, but whatever it is, I believe I built a house that's resilient enough to make it the next 100 years. Now, I
Mark D. Williams 42:51
like that mindset. Last winter, you're like, I don't care. I think that what I like about the mindset, it goes back to something you said earlier and lately, a favorite question of mine on the podcast, and I guess I'll ask you, what was the what was your childhood address of your home? 3041, Virginia Avenue. Everyone I've asked that question to remembers, and we're the reason I keep bringing it up. And I think it's important with new guests to tell them as well, is that we as home builders are building a home that's not just mark la Levitt a home, it's going to be someone else's home and someone else's home and someone else's home and someone else's home, and there's a lot of pride in that. And yes, as that builder, you don't get the financial reward of these other homes. But I think most people never got into building for the financial side of it. Otherwise they probably would have picked a different career, as we like to joke. But you do it because you love it. You do it because you care. And as a business owner now, obviously, profits not a dirty word, yet. We're trying to run profitable businesses. I believe in that it's best for the client. It's best for your families. The economic impact we have in this country is incredible through the course of home building and remodeling. But where I'm going with this is, I like the idea that being more mindful of this is not just Yes, I'm building. If you're my client, Mark, I'm building for you, but I'm also building for that future generation. My wife is a physician, so I use a lot of Doctor quotes and stuff, but like, do no harm. You know, it's like, that's the Hippocratic Oath. Like, I want to do, like, if I've had clients before, I have this thing with you, I can't remember if you agree with this or not, or if maybe I heard it from you. Like, in Minnesota, people that want to put a skylight in are freaking crazy to me. I'm like, why would I take a perfectly good house and cut a hole in the in the hole in the roof? Like, this is nuts. And, and I'm not saying that there's not products out there to do this. I'm just saying Mark Williams won't do that. And I have, I had an architect, and I really liked their design. It was killer. And they, I think, actually, I actually brought this up to you a couple years ago. They had, they had skylights in every bathroom in the house on a flat roof. Of a flat roof house, which I know in Minnesota is also kind of a kiss of death to you and and anyway, and I'm like, Guys, I'm on board with the flat roof because it looks so cool. I got swayed by the sexy. I'm like, this is a sexy looking house, but I said, You got to get rid of the skylights. I. That I can't have skylights in my shower, in the middle, when it's negative 25 I'm just thinking, like, you can have stalagmites of ice coming down off of these windows. I'm like, I can't do it. And the architect listened. And I think sometimes, you know, we and I said it obviously, in a, I mean, probably way I just did like funny, or in a way that like is you're explaining to them, you're letting them enter in. And this is a collaboration. I'm really probably never going to sign up for any sort of deal where somebody is like, absolute, because I just don't think there's that many absolute things in life, maybe gravity, but maybe not even that. Don't go to the moon. But like, the point of it is, is, like, if someone is so dogmatic about one thing, I'm just not sure I'm your right fit, because I believe in collaboration. And it was a real mark to that architect and other people that saying, like, you know what? I understand that you have to warranty this house for 10 years in Minnesota, which is a long time, and you are very concerned about this. Let's work. And you know what the client was like? Yeah, I never really liked him anyway. Like, we did all of this, and he didn't even care anyway. So anyway, I'm again, this isn't supposed to be a knock on skylights anyway. What analogy mark?
Mark LaLiberte 46:03
It's a good analogy to consider the fact that, when are the you as the business professional that's going to warrant that house, not only for 10 years, or however long the period is, it's a word you want to remember, and it's called reputation. And you don't you work on that continuously. So let's say, 20 years from now, there's a reputation of the product that Mark Williams built, and you are pass this on to a child, or you you sell it to another business or but all of your clients remember the house they built with you. So I would say reputation is personal. I'm going to give you my personal reputation and put that on the line. So I'm only going to do the right thing. There's plenty of people that don't, but if you're one of those guys, which you are, I've known you for a while, Mark, that says I do the right thing because it's the right thing to do, and that's what I will continue to do. As I raise my knowledge about my industry, I would deliver that product to my clients. If they don't want it, then they're probably not the right client. If a client does, you know, have you ever built a house for client? You wish you wouldn't have built for? And the answer is always yes. You're like, well, when did you know that was happening pretty early on? You know, they were such a drag early on, but I thought I would power through it, and at the end, I lost money, and they still hate me, so I should have passed on that one. You set your boundary for people to say, I believe that the reason I want you, I love the way you communicate. I love your process. I'm excited about the design and the product. And you said you're comfortable and confident you can execute on that. Let's do this together. Then your job is to close the sale and move on to the next phase. And that's your job. And I think that if we look at that as entrepreneurs, we have to do all of those things. You have to not only solicit the clients, work with an architect, if you're lucky, find the client, move them through the pre operational sequence, get them to the stage where they go like, I'm ready to go with you, Mark. And you're like, well, let's put a contract together at CC, at climate, at the contract coalition Summit. You walk through the details about good contracts. You get through that phase and say, Now let's get started. I'll take pictures. We'll send things. You come out here, all your trades are confident with what you're doing. That's the executed process that you have to follow. And if you do that, you're like, you know, I'm less stressed when my wife and I go on vacation. I know I've got a team back there that's going to exceed expectations. I'm good, and I think you have to build a business like
Mark D. Williams 48:17
that. You shared a story a couple of years ago that I had listened to and you had mentioned, I can't you'll remember who it was. Well, there's Colorado where he decided, out of the blue, he was going to build only Net Zero homes, and that's all he built. And someone comes to him and says, I want this other home, like, I'm sorry that that's not I'm really impressed with people that are so well defined with who they are, what they want to do, that they can have this singular brand. I feel like probably more people than not are not like that. They see opportunity, and they try to make it work. And I do think we would all be a little better off if we could be a little bit more singular in our brand, or it doesn't always have to be a style. Like, I mean, there's, there's certain architects, like, they only do one style. And I actually there's one of them I really want to bring on the podcast. Well, Charles Stinson, you know who he is, and so I just think his style is beautiful. You see it all over, of course, Southwest. You see it up in Minnesota, too. But you know a Charles Stinson house when you see it? And so I'm just really impressed. I wonder how often people have approached him and say, Hey, I'd love you to do this style of home. I mean, maybe he's done him. I just don't know about him. He's like, but you stay so specific to your one craft, your one thing, it's really admirable, and I think all of us entrepreneurs should take another look at rather than trying to add more to our repertoire. Is probably take away and do less. And I have, personally have a hard time with this, because I'm a I like more and more and more. So it's really against my nature to sort of slim it down and and get more specific. But I do see the value as an entrepreneur to get very specific, because now your clients know who you are. You're not just a through z like they're getting exactly what you are identifying, and you're going to identify your ideal client a lot faster. I think,
Mark LaLiberte 49:56
yeah, but let's say that it's you're still okay being broad in in scope. But you have a narrow focus on exactly the quality of product that you built, whether it's a flat roof, whether it's a Frank Lloyd Wright design is irrelevant. Agreed the time that I make a connection point, this has to be properly detailed and flashed. Every time I put a window in a recessed buck, I've got to make sure it's slightly sloped so it drains away. Whenever I put in a foundation, I make sure it's insulated and I put non paper faced gypsum in the lower level to prevent mold that doesn't care whether it's flat or
Mark D. Williams 50:26
no. 100% agree with you on when
Mark LaLiberte 50:28
you go, there's a Mark Williams design that I like to build, which is the enclosure itself. You put the stuff on the outside, which is the 90% of what nobody sees you're doing the inside and the outside is going to go, wow, this is amazing. It's a Stinson house. It's a DW Druitt, which is a builder here in Arizona, which is extraordinary, like, like, Stinson. And you look at that house, you're like, but it was built by this and there's no variation in your standard and approach. You learn to be deeper in your your skill set. And you're like, going, so they're going to put CMU in this particular area, and have to find a way to insulate CMU. So we'll figure it out. But you're only going to do it watertight, thermally insulated, to prevent the concerns that physics creates. You're able to be flexible. You don't have to go, I only do flank Frank Lloyd Wright, but you can say, I'll only do it with these parameters met. And then you're like, I got it, and an architect is going to go, so can you do this? You're like, let me look through it. Yeah, I can do that. But this is what I do. They're going to go, cool. I just want you to make sure that when it's in a magazine and it's crazy, you did it. So no, I 100%
Mark D. Williams 51:34
agree with you, and I like that a lot. I wanted to ask you this before we ran out of time. Was so you built, you have a net zero home that you built in Arizona, as we mentioned earlier on the podcast. And you advise people all over the country. We kind of joke before we came on air that I remember this old line. My dad used to say that talking about getting rid of the word perfection in building because you're building a prototype each time is unique. And like he had often told me as a young entrepreneur, he said, there's not a single home that I built that I couldn't go into and find 10 things that I would have done differently, because it's a prototype. You're finding things I'm curious to ask you. You advise people all over the country. People pay you money. You fly all over the country to do this. What were some things that you learned building your own home that either surprised you or kind of snuck up and you're like, wow, I didn't like what did you learn in building your own home? Because it's a lot different. I mean, I know you have a lab, which is, you're like, you're like, beyond the one percentile, you're like, 1% of the 1% in terms of like, you would literally have a lab in Colorado where you're testing all this stuff, but now you're building your own home, which now you have the things that you like and you think is cool, on top of all these mechanical systems, plus, you know your decades of pursuit, what Did you learn building your own net zero house?
Mark LaLiberte 52:42
Well, it's a great observation, because when you take the knowledge base and then you kind of throw it into a marketplace that you don't know very well, you are left with the challenges of trade contractors who are like going, Who is this nut job that came in? Nobody in Arizona does that. Who would ever put poly under a slab? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Your slab is going to blow up and you're going to wreck it. You're like, whatever. Just get that done. So we had to go through there's a bit of a learning curve. I think Brad's group did a nice job of trying to say, whatever Mark wants. Let's just do it, but let's understand why. So I'd say there's a few things I did. A it was a really cool design. It was actually designed by an architect in Minneapolis, pKa architecture. And so what we did is we had a flat roof. And I probably would have done something different in terms of how I designed the trusses to make the interior roof flat using a little flexibility in the trusses. But I used a SIP roof, so I had trusses on top of my ICF walls. All my mechanical systems ran through there. I decked that and created that as the air barrier. Then I brought in SIP panels from the folks down in southern Minnesota that extreme panels. Yeah, extreme panels, fabulous company. So I had extreme panel coming in on a flatbed truck. They came in, they were eight feet wide and 24 feet long, and the flatbed truck picked up the on a crane, and they dropped the panels on top of that completed roof detail the leftover on sides acted as my overhangs that then shielded the walls and Ian, I wrapped that with my metal fascia to give me my my facial look really turned out cool. So I had five foot overhangs in some areas that were extended beyond with using a SIP panel. So the enclosure itself was done to man, maintain all the interior conditions. And the SIP roof acted as an airtight, watertight assembly. So it was, it was, it was great. I just didn't spend enough time training the guys that were dropping that SIP panels on top because I was out working. So I came back and I'm like, Well, you guys put them together using the splines, and they go, nah. We had a chainsaw. We just kind of cut those little tabs off. I'm like, don't my heart just went. So I learned how critical it is that you do a really good explanation, and you sit down with people. And I was, I was traveling so much during and it was also during COVID. So a lot of trades were like, Yeah, my whole cruise sick. And you're like, shut up. Just still want to come up here, you know, because I was a ways away from in Phoenix House north. So I would say that we had a kind of a challenging time, and it was a new, new strategy. So there were little things. I'd say that communication is everything. As you know, what falls apart about any business is the lack of communication that's of good quality. Asking you said this early on, which is I really wanted to enforce what you said so eloquently is that the art of asking good questions is as important as the incredible art of listening, and so the listening skills that we don't have are ones that, if we probe often enough and ask people tell me about your experience the things that are important to you, so that I can deliver what's important to me and understand better. That's just the foundation of good communication of human beings, and we don't do that enough. And I was telling the group that I was in Tennessee last week, I said, How often do you compliment your trades for doing good work, while we spend more time hammering them for times when they don't do it well? So build your base trades. Have an A team, a B team and a C team. You want the A Team almost every time, because they're the ones you've been working with. Encourage that trade contractor to give you the A team. And so I would work on that to say somebody new came up. I was like, Oh no, they don't know what my expectations are. I got to fix that. So I think all of us have realized that training and trade base, quality of communication, accuracy of details, and then monitoring things at the stage where you have to close it up before you, before you clad the building, you know, before you drywall and insulate, looking at all of the things that you'll find.
Mark D. Williams 56:33
And let's be honest, practice makes perfect, as they say. I've often told some people that, let's say, whether it might be a painter or HVAC company or whoever, as we train them in as I often will say, Hey, this is our first project with you. Ian, I do believe this. I think you have to do three projects with somebody before you both know each other, not only communication styles, skill set, the people when we when you've worked with one company for 3040, years, I know their kids, their grandkids, you end up knowing them so deeply that that's not possible to replace 40 years of knowledge in one house. It takes a few homes. There's turnover that they have people that change. But I think if builders, if we can extend loyalty to our trade partners, we you will see it come back to you tenfold, and they realize that they're not just a number every single time. I often don't take like one in that range before I had five framing bids, like the low bid and the high bid. I mean, I definitely throw out the low bid because I'm like, they're not even in the ballpark, like they're either going to hit me with so many change orders that it's going to make everyone's head spin, or B, they're incompetent, or C, like they're just going to walk off the job. Like, no, none of those examples are good. And so you need to develop a relationship. And, you know, again, we can all make money. And you know, I years ago, I had a framer where they were so integral to my early career. And now one of them, Mike, is my PM, and I remember early on in the career, I said, you need to raise your rates. I said, You guys do amazing work. You're so conscientious. I want you around 10 years from now. But I said, you don't just raise your rates for me. You raise your rates on all the builders you work with. If I find out that you only raised it on me. I said, that's going to be a different story, but I'm telling you you need to, and I think that's okay. Ian, I don't know how many other I don't know how many other builders would say that, but it was in our community my best interest. There it was. It was a rising tide floats all boats. And guess what? It was better for the people we built for too, because they got a better home. And I
Mark LaLiberte 58:26
think Jared raised his business quality. He bought a new truck, he added things to his family, he hired another person, got some new tools. Those are what you expect. So we have to support the entrepreneurs that are supporting us, yeah, and when we do that, we have to say, no, here's what I can do. How about if we work on this? I had a builder that he was a good sized builder in New Mexico. He helped the heating contractor grow he goes, I like everything you do. You just can't respond quick enough to my work. How could I help you? And he goes, I don't have the cash flow to grow the business. He goes, then I'll cash flow you. But here's the deal. You stay consistent with me in price, and you're honest with what you do. And he always put me first, but I'll help you grow. He helped fund his business grow. He got a new help him get a new truck, new tools, and he then became one of the larger trade contractors in Albuquerque. And I think that he cared enough about saying, if I can find that your business model works, I'd like to replicate that.
Mark D. Williams 59:19
That's, I mean, that's, that's an amazing story, right there. What? What are, you know, from a cadence, going back to a question I asked, you know, in the very beginning, in terms of, I have some ideas on how I want to bring my team and even my semi subcontractors out to construction instruction. How often should companies, I mean, a first step is get out there with, like, well, actually, let's just design it live. So I have a team of five. I would probably bring my pm and my project coordinator and myself, and just for the first time to go out, just to learn, see what it all is about. I'm sure you have multiple one day, three day, five days, and you can talk about that later. And two days going out a second time. I'd probably just have my PM. Go out with maybe what a couple framers like, what would be a normal progression, and then how often would this cadence sort of repeat, so that it stays fresh. Because one thing that I noticed, we went down to builder trend recently to learn a lot of their software. I know you use builder trend on your house, and you know it doesn't do me any good to go to that all alone and then come back and tell my team, like, I need to bring my team down there, because they're the ones sort of implementing that knowledge base and training the subs. No different than I, if I'm going to construction and instruction, I probably want to bring one or two of my main framers. I want to bring, you know, some of my HVAC partners. I'd be curious to know, like, then going ongoing. How do you see people sort of, like, a longer path? Yeah,
Mark LaLiberte 1:00:41
we've had numerous builders that have come five and six times. We just had a dear Horton division in Spokane, Washington, send the teams down, and when they came back, they said it changed the whole way we looked at buildings. I would say you're right about the assessment of yourself, but some PMS and some some people, project managers that are are really part of the vision of your business, so that when you get together in the first day, you walk through the building science stuff, and you go to dinner that night and go, What do you guys think? I think we need to do a better job of this. And you start building your next steps the next day, you reinforce it, the programs about building science and physics and the stuff you learn in the lab when you get done at the end of the day, we then talk about it and say, what kind of things are your takeaways that you're going to add to your business? Who else do you think needs to come? You're like, I definitely need an HVAC guy here. And then when you do your advanced but we have, you know, high performance building enclosures, and then advanced building closures, like a 101 and a 201 you know. And then there's an advanced HVAC systems, where the heating contractors come in, they learn how to balance the loads, how to put the right diameter of duct in, how to get the right grills, how they measure flow, how you calculate the right the right load for the house. They walk away, and they go, you know, I was guessing at that for years. I would just go 4000 square feet, probably two four ton units, and you're like, going, wait, wait, wait. So Windows, building, enclosure tightness, thermal efficiency, they would go through and do all the calculations. Go, wow, I was guessing, so I could be more competitive now, but sell better equipment. Include the ERV for the same price, and the builder is going to go, I get all of this for this price. And you're like, Yeah, I optimized all systems, including the diameter of the duct and where it runs. The Billy goes, I want you. So that's the evolution of all those whether it's framers, we've had insulators come. And so I think it's about who in your group do you need to be on board? I've got architects that come. There's an architect out of Salt Lake City who's been there three times, and he goes, I am a different kind of architect. He goes, I believe that these things have to be included. Some architects go, Look, I'm just going to do the physical design and the esthetics. You figure it out from here, and you're like, okay, great designs. Your CDs are like, and so I'll take it from here.
Mark D. Williams 1:02:55
Yeah, I've got 1000 ideas that are spending we'll have to talk about offline. Maybe last question is, just because one respect your time and the audiences as well. You know, you've been in this industry a long time, where do you think, what do you see the future looking like you've seen kind of in the past? Because it's funny, I had Andy pace on, I don't know if you know him from Wisconsin. He does a lot about wellness, and we didn't talk a lot about it today. We'll, we'll maybe pick it up another time, because we're talking a lot of efficiencies and those types of things, and there is an overlap of wellness, but sometimes they're in con they're in conflict. You know, just because something's environmentally sound doesn't make it good for humans, and vice versa. Anyway, it's really opened up my eyes. And I was talking, I had Andy on the podcast, like, three months ago, and he was like, I've been talking about this since the 80s. He goes, it's just the first time that people are finally listening. And I have to imagine somebody like you, who has been educating people since the 80s and 90s, is finally like, Oh, my word. You're finally people are finally paying attention after four decades. Anyway, I'd love to hear a little like, just like, how has that journey been to you? Like to keep doing it. And then the next is like, where do you see the future going?
Mark LaLiberte 1:04:01
That's a great question mark. You know, I would say that I know people in my industry, that in the education industry, that have become quite cynical about that, and I'm like, you can't be cynical. And I never let that happen. I think that we have to evolve as an industry. We've always been a very conservative industry in terms of the way in which we progress. We still frame houses like we did in late 1800s right? The lumber is delivered to the mud. A guy shows up with a nail gun. The most advanced thing is now a cordless nail gun. So the thing the process is pretty, pretty well proven that it's just how it's going to work. I was in Texas two weeks ago, and they still hand frame their roofs. They don't use trusses. So I'm like, the guy goes, I said, Why don't you use trust? Oh, you can't use trusses in Texas, I go, Yeah, you can, but it's okay. It's okay. I don't care. I don't care, right? So I think that we have to be continually motivated to always improve the industry at whatever level it's at whatever level they come to you, then we go to that place and help them further on their career. That's our job. If you're you have to be patient and listen. I think that. Difficulty moving forward, as well as the excitement about moving forward is that everybody's considering AI to be one of the great industry challenges. I was in San Francisco recently, and I had to get an Uber ride down to Santa Clara, and so I'm doing that. I'm in the car. It's a nice Tesla that I'm riding in. And everything I asked the guy says, so you know how well you been doing. Goes well. I used to be a software engineer, but I'm now a Tesla driver in Uber. He said, My industry is being taken over through AI. And I'm like, you know, interesting, the home building industry is going to struggle to have aI take out the guy putting down the poly under your slab. So we might be in better shape for that. I think that our when we look at our industry in terms of advanced technologies, what you use AI for will be helping you improve specifications, maybe improve scheduling things. All of those things will be a benefit. The architecture community is concerned, because it might take that marketplace away. Someone still has to exercise on this detail has got to physically be built. So what an exciting time for us to look at all of the knowledge that's in AI tells you build tight, thermally efficient design it to be water managed and water efficient. If you do all those things, it becomes universal again. So let's make sure that all of us are committing to the best built product we can so that in generations from now, the knowledge of 2025 will show up in 2075 and it'll say, Wow, I'm really glad that they took the knowledge of the day and they applied that today, because it's made houses healthier and more efficient, and we've learned more about in human health, so that if we live in those environments that are better for us, quiet, comfortable, indoor air quality, proper lighting, those are all human conditions we Have to take advantage of and be careful about. We're pretty sensitive things, you know, so we have to be careful with that, and if we do a good job of that, generations in the future will benefit from those choices. Will factory crafted housing being a future, and I'm thinking it will be. We will see more people where they're they go to a factory. They do build the house. It comes out. It's still assembled in pieces. Cam locks. Lock them in place. We finished things. They could still be beautiful and creative. I had a house in Carmel that came in 12 truckloads when they put it together. You There is no way you could have tell that that came off of a truck.
Mark D. Williams 1:07:15
So I knew I wouldn't get away. I had to ask another question. You just opened Pandora's Box, part two, one hour supply and demand is still live and well, and we're in a marketplace that rewards, obviously, capitalism. Where I'm going with this is if SIP panels has been touted for a long time as kind of like the end all be, all for a lot of different things, I know the answer is probably somewhere in the middle, that not is just not one solution for everything, but going back to these homes that are pre built, like you were just talking about, if they were so good and so efficient and so especially as with a declining labor pool, which we have been anticipating for quite some time, why you would think the national builders, Lennar polti, like they would have dumped millions of dollars into development and figuring this stuff out Like a little small Pop Shop, like me, like we're gonna build a little cabin next year, and it's a little monopoly house. It's got four walls and a simple 412, roof, or whatever it is. It's gonna look cool, kind of Scandinavian, but I'm thinking, You know what? I might try to just play around with a sip on my own cabin, just to play around with it, to see what it looks like. It's up a little remote. So there's some advantages to doing it would be cool, just to understand so I could educate clients on it, but it's a pain in the butt when we're so used to building one way to learn how to build a whole nother way. It's a whole nother set of systems. And I'm sure there's other things that are overlap. But why hasn't it taken off more? Is it simply because we're just we don't want to change. But I have to believe that the bigger companies, they probably have dedicated teams looking at this, and if it made financial sense, they would have done it just based on numbers. Why has it not why your opinion? Why has it not become more mainstream, if it really is better and more efficient? Yeah, you know, it's a good question
Mark LaLiberte 1:08:52
mark. I think part of it is, when you look at the production builders, remember the answer to Wall Street. And so in other industries, or industries not governed by Wall Street, they would be more apt to say, Let's spend the next few years experimenting with us and bringing the technology forward. Pulte put together a SIP plant, operational plant in in Atlanta. They built the whole thing they were going to do sips panels and plant. After about three quarters, they weren't seeing any profitability. Of them, they shut the thing down. You're like, Well, wait a minute. This is, this is a long term commitment you make to improving buildings. And so what happens is, for example, that the difficulty in the United States is that we have such a large physical territory to put up manufacturing plants and large levels of shipments. Right now, I work at the company in Salt Lake City that is buying all of their wall panels pre fabricated out of a company. It's called, any structures out of Quebec, and they're being transported in. They've got, right now, 18 houses that are all framed. They're using engineered lumber for all the studs and framing. They ship it all the way out. A crane on site puts the walls together. BFS, those first source, they do all their pre cut lumber packages we're seeing probably. Uh, 40% of it, of more of the market in this country is now pre cutting all of their lumber. The studs are all pre cut. They're lit, they're labeled and lettered. They match the top plate. That's becoming pretty much standard approach that you're seeing that there's multiple companies that are doing pre cut packages. There's multiple companies in a large, large scale, that are doing all their wall panels. When I was with Beezer homes in one of the markets, they said, all our panels come out pre preset. All we do is stand up the panels. So there's the evolution from cutting framing to the saws out. We're going to have the panel come in. It's all laid on, on the plan, and we stack them, secure them, move on, framed and assembled in a day. So it's also accurate, dead straight, no extra studs. So that's happening right now. Scandinavian countries are able to do most, almost all. 90% of their homes are all factory crafted, but they have a very small shipping area right in the US. The fact that these houses for Salt Lake City are coming out of Quebec, any structures is amazing. They're very busy. There's a builder in New Hampshire, which called and Matt has talked about it in his podcast, where they're they're building the whole house, shipping the whole entire thing, wall frame insulation, and you just assemble the parts. So we will watch a balance between performance expectations and the performance of the crews find that it's easier to buy the systems assembled. I worked with a group out of Portland. It's called mod. And mod builds Townhouses and condos, all pre manufactured, insulated, put in the cabinets, and they come out in parts on it, on a flat bed, and a crane drops them in place. So we're not far from that. And you look at the other companies. Berkshire Hathaway had purchased, the company that they bought, that was all building the largest manufactured and pre manufactured houses company in the country. So it's further along than we think, but I would say that there are pieces and parts that will begin seeing more structures come together. And I think sips is found a home. It's time.
Mark D. Williams 1:11:59
Yeah, no, I'm excited to see what the future holds from that standpoint. Well, thank you, Scott for coming on.
Mark LaLiberte 1:12:04
I did my first sip house in 2021 in Minneapolis, out in Prior Lake. And I did the whole thing. I had my my trades come in the zip guys sent out a crew they assembled, put all the walls together. My framers came back to the interior wall partitions and put on the trusses. So that was long, that's 20 years ago. So would look forward to, anytime I get to run into you. I think I'll see you in Omaha. Yeah, I'll see
Mark D. Williams 1:12:26
you in a couple weeks at the contractor coalition. Shout out to what we're doing there. And I think you've been our opening night speaker. You're like, you know, you're like, Billy Joel opening up on the on the keyboard. You're always, always start off the coalition with, uh, with a bang. So appreciate you coming on. We'll have all your information in the show notes, and thanks for the curious builder. Appreciate it.
Mark LaLiberte 1:12:45
Great to see you. Thank you and good good job on the work you're doing to help educate our industry. Well done. I appreciate it.
Mark D. Williams 1:12:52
We've had the podcast now for two and a half, almost three years now, and we have a consulting page, one to one consulting you can book my time for one hour. Perhaps you've heard a guest where you like one of the topics. Maybe you want an introduction to some of the guests that I've had on. Perhaps you want to talk about branding or marketing or anything that we've covered on the podcast over the last two and a half years. You can book a time at curious builder podcast.com thanks for tuning in to curious builder podcast. If you liked this episode, do us a favor. Share it with three other business owners, the best way that we can spread what we're doing is by word of mouth, and with your help, we can continue to help other curious builders expand their business. Please share it with your friends. Like and review online, and thanks again for tuning in.
1:13:33
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