Episode 134 - Wearing Your Brand (Literally): Harnish and the Power of Jobsite Style
#134 | Alex Chou | Harnish Workwear | Wearing Your Brand (Literally) and the Power of Jobsite Style
How do you reinvent the world’s most basic item—a T-shirt—and make pants that actually fight back against plumber’s crack? In this episode of The Curious Builder Podcast, Mark sits down with Alex Chou, co-founder of Harnish Workwear, to talk about premium workwear, design snags, field testing with framers, and why durability shouldn’t mean looking like a walking sandbag. From sourcing Cordura to building a cult following in Canada, this episode has everything: branding, community, custom tags, and a spam-surfing sidetrack you didn’t see coming.
Listen to the full episode:
About Alex Chou
Alex is an artist and designer with classic training in painting, sculpture, and graphic design. He received his BFA in Design from Parsons The New School of Design and has over 15 years of design experience in various industries, including performance sportswear apparel. He has had the opportunity to travel the world and work with big name brands such as Reebok, UFC, Adidas, Conor McGregor, Victoria Beckham, Crossfit, Weetabix, and Asos. A creative thinker with a passion for design and innovation, he thrives in creative environments built to push boundaries. He believes strong teams are built on open communication, diversity, and a common drive for quality results.
Alex’s dedication to the Harnish brand is driven by the excitement in the possibilities for creating high quality products that will push the workwear industry forward and help build a brand never seen in the workwear industry before.
Resources:
Visit the Harnish Workwear’s Website
-
Mark D. Williams 00:00
We have the contractor coalition Summit coming up in Chicago, November 7 through the 10th. And Nick schifr will be there. Monica craftsman Tyler will be there. I'll be there. Brad Levitt will be there. So whoever signs up within one week of this episode airing gets a full free kit. You get the hoodie and you get the Creator pants. How about that, of course, and a T shirt. We got a t shirt, and the t shirt the whole suite. So there you go. There you go today.
Mark D. Williams 00:33
Trickier builder podcast, we had Alex Chuan from Harnish work, where Alex and I have known each other for a couple years that are a huge fan of the podcast, and we are of them. And it was really interesting to hear that they basically make custom, bespoke workwear for construction workers across the United States. And they just really their commitment to quality is always what stands out. So without further ado, here's Alex All right. Welcome to curious builder podcast. It's another Monday for a great episode. We've got Alex Chu in studio from Harnish workwear out on the East Coast. What's up? Alex, Hey, how's it going? Thank you for having me. I know we've actually talked about doing this for quite a while. I've been a huge proponent of Harnish. You guys are one of our sponsors for, think, our past boot camp at Zion. We've also had you as a sponsor for, like, our curious collectives, and maybe just, I'll start off the gate of how we met. I was on the modern craftsman maybe two years ago, three years ago. I don't even remember anymore. And anyway, for past returning guests, they had a collaboration with you guys, and they just kill or cool label. I mean, it's so funny, because this is very simple black shirt with this really awesome label, and they send it to you, and you're like, it's a t shirt, like, we've all had T shirts I put it on. I think I must have wore that 365, days in a year. I probably wore it 320 days a year. The other 45 days I didn't have it was in the wash because I was constantly wearing it. I'm like, Okay, this is ridiculous. So I think I within just a few days, I think I can't reach out to you, and basically did my own order. And at this point, I've probably ordered several 1000 T shirts, either giveaway to curious builder, curious collective, curious builder podcast, Mark Williams, custom homes. I tell everyone I know about it because you're like, everyone's like, it's a shirt. I'm like, Oh no, it's not a shirt. It's the softest armor you'll ever wear. So anyway, that's your intro. I suspect a lot of people meet you this way. Is that probably pretty you got to get a shirt on, and then as soon as you feel it, you're like, Oh yeah, wow. This is totally different.
Alex Chou 02:22
Pretty accurate, yeah. And I have to look at the numbers again, but I think you are probably our number one customer. I think you, you hold the number one spot for quantity.
Mark D. Williams 02:30
Don't hold it over modern craftsman. I think you do it this time. Yes, get your heart out. Nick and Tyler and Doug. I own you watch out. Of course, they crushed me and everything else. But fine. If I own the t shirt department, I'm happy to have that one.
Alex Chou 02:43
Yeah. And like you said, I think the soon, as soon as people touch it, they get obsessed with it. And I think we can thank our special sueded finish, which is a brush we put on the fabric, which is not something you're gonna find in a lot of T shirts, which, what
Mark D. Williams 02:57
does that mean? Like, one of my you hit it right on the head, like, I mean, this is and by the way, this, this episode, is not meant to be a puff piece. I mean, it probably will come off that way. But I genuinely, like, love this product I have. It's funny because in my shirt drawer the other day, I was looking at how many shirts I have, like, two I can never get to the other shirts in my drawer because I have like, 10 podcast shirts that I wear, especially now they're coming into the fall, winter season. It's like my first line of defense, I wear that under every other shirt that I have, because it's like, I don't sweat out. It's super soft. But why is this t shirt? It's still made of cotton. But why is it so much softer than any other shirt I've ever had?
Alex Chou 03:30
So when you knit the fabric, it's usually pretty smooth, and so this is just an extra step in the process where we brush it so it creates a fuzzy softness on the face of the face of the fabric, and that's what you're feeling when you're That's
Mark D. Williams 03:43
Ian, well, kudos to you guys, because, I mean on top of the branding, I mean the branding, I don't know if it was slash creative or if it was you guys or Nick, but that little tag thing, I assume, because it's funny, because I've recommended so many people like Brad Robinson, who's a good friend of mine. I know he because he, as soon as he he was out at boot camp, he got a shirt, and he's like, I have to have this. And then the next time I saw him, he sent me in the mail. He made long sleeve tees with you guys with the little tag. It's like, everyone wants the tag. And the funny part is, you have to do 1000 of the tags, right? I think I still have, like, 500 left over. And so it's like, I've had my mother in law stitch him on my like, my custom hats, which is from a different company. I do. I've used that tag like all over the place. I love that thing. Yeah.
Alex Chou 04:23
I mean, that kind of rolls into branding. It's a good segue, because if you're able to customize the work where you spend a lot of time building your brand, your reputation, what your company stands for, your tone of voice, what you bring to the table that's unique. And when you're ordering custom stuff, you want to be able to show all of that equity somehow. So offering those custom labels that you can put on all kinds of products really helps with that brand recognition.
Mark D. Williams 04:49
It's you and Kyle, right? Yes, how, what made you want to get in the t shirt brand? Because, like, I've already said, like, I think before we got on, like, ever since Adam and leave Adam and Eve. Left the Garden of Eden and they killed an animal and put some dead animal on their body. Shortly after that, they got a cotton shirt. I mean, the cotton shirts have been around for I mean, at this point, there's got to be millennia, and it's like, how is your shirt? I mean, I know, because I've felt it. But why did you decide to get in the t shirt business? Because it's a massive commodity game versus, like, take my industry, for example, high end custom homes. Like, there's only so many people that can many people that can do what we do, and it takes a long time to get there. Like, where most people probably assume, Oh, like, I know what a cotton shirt is, because everyone has one, but there's only one harness. How? Why T shirts? Like, why did you decide to launch this business?
Alex Chou 05:35
Right? So this whole business is Kyle's vision, right? I mean, he's a builder. He's got a lot of experience in the trades, and I think it started with him being not happy with what was offered for work wear. And he has a specific style that he likes. I mean, he's fashion conscious, and he, you know, has a connection with when things fit him well, he feels good. And I think a lot of us share that mentality as well. And so that's the first thing that we looked at, and I think he had a big focus on pants, because he wears, like, more of a tapered, tailored fit. And there really weren't a lot of options out there for something like that. You might get the fit you want, but the durability is not there, or you might get the durability you want, but the fit is just all wrong. So we took that kind of approach, and we looked at everything, and we spent a lot of time researching and developing pants. And in the meantime, to help push the brand, we developed a t shirt, and we wanted the t shirt to also have a specific cut. And I think that's the other thing that people like, I know that Nick's like, it makes you look jacked because the sleeves are tailored and it fits well and and then, of course, the properties of just being sweat wicking and warm and soft is all things that we wanted. So our goal is to maximize all of the must haves to the point where you're just like, this has everything I want, and then it can stand up to going on the job site and doing what I needed to do, and being comfortable and looking good,
Mark D. Williams 06:56
because it was a, I mean, it looks super tailored, which I obviously like. And you're right now that I think about it. I mean, I wasn't Well, I certainly love the trades, and I'm a huge fan of them. Unlike a lot of other builders, like Kyle and Nick like grew up doing a lot of the work where mine has always been sort of more organizing, style, design, those types of things, I'm attracted towards it because it's comfortable. I like the way it performs and feels more from an athletic standpoint, but I assume whether it's athletic or in the field. I mean, if you're on a windowsill or you're doing a deep squat like no one. I mean, everyone has seen the plumbers crack. I mean, it's practically a construction joke at this point, but it's like having paint pants that actually fit your body, so that they're comfortable. It was funny because I think, I don't know if I was a beta tester, I think I was for the soft pants, because I brought it out to my sister's house last Thanksgiving. I think I did a reel out there. You mailed it to me. And sure, you guys are just getting your first round of product development and testing, and they live out in Colorado, and Gunnison at like, things like seven, 8000 feet, and I went hiking in them. So for me, I like a highly durable pants for mountaineering and for just hiking and being in the mountains, but I also like something that's super comfortable. And so my testing was totally different than what your target market is, which obviously the construction field I'm giving it like the I was like, after I wore it, I think I texted you. I'm like, Dude, you guys need to go to like, Rei or Patagonia. You need to white label it, or get this into the mountaineering community. Because the wearability of it was phenomenal. Because from a mountaineering standpoint, like you're in the rocks, it's very abrasive. We want something that's really tough, so a lot of similar characteristics, oddly enough that you were in pursuit for construction, very much appealed to me in outdoor wear. But what I thought was particularly genius is the inside of your waistband, you had those three lines of rubber. I think I'm not quite sure what silicone printing, and it was amazing, because I assume that you developed that way so that when people have tool belts on, people would be wearing tool belts. And throughout the day, if they're not wearing suspenders or over shoulders to sport, you'd pull your pants down right back to the plumbers crack. Or basically, you've invented a product that thwarts, that gives the middle finger to the plumbers crack. And basically your pants don't move. They don't slide down. They stay where you want them to. And I was like, this is super cool. And then I saw you put it on the cuff, down by your ankles, so you don't get like, the high riding, because everyone has had it down by their boots. Or you sit down in a chair and you look down and your bands are up by your knees. You look like, you know, your Payne Stewart reference journal golfer. By the way, for those that don't know who Payne Stewart is, think he's from Minnesota, actually, deep, deep cut anyway, long story short, super impressive. So that was almost a year ago now, because we're, by the time this releases, we're only a couple weeks away from Thanksgiving. What has happened since then, in terms of now, you've, obviously, you've had the Creator pants out there for sale for probably, what, six months,
Alex Chou 09:33
yeah, and we've, we're still collecting feedback. That's our first major, huge development. We put a lot of time and effort into it, and so all of our new customers are also testers, and we're focused on improving our products constantly and getting customer feedback. And that's what we're doing, because there will be a version two that comes out at some point, and we're going to take every everybody's feedback. It's like a community built product. And so that's what we're doing now. And it's a backup. It's funny, it's. You mentioned hiking and outdoors, because there's a lot of crossover, I think, between outdoor wear and outdoors in general, and the guys that work in the field, one of Kyle's good friends, Sean, who owns a company called Pro Roof, shout out to Pro Roof. They're on the roof all day, and they're outside, and you need to have that mobility. And so there's this crossover between athletic wear, outdoor wear, and having that mobility and comfort and stretch and that protection. It all kind of rolls into one product, which also makes it versatile. So you can take it, I've taken it mountain biking, and they're great for that. And yeah, so it's
Mark D. Williams 10:37
doing its thing. It was reminds me we did our our honeymoon in Iceland in Norway, 14 years ago. And there's a I didn't know it at the time. Now it came to you, and I'd say it's fall Raven, they had this really cool wax pants. It's like a t1 1000, or whatever it is, but they have pockets. It almost because whenever I go to the Boundary Waters, I'd have my mountaineering pants, or you'd have your pants that you could zip off and do the shorts thing. And everyone in Europe, everyone had this particular pants. So of course, we're over there. I had to buy a pair. And it's funny, it wasn't until I came back and wore those creators that I because that pant has been my go to outdoor, hiking, canoeing, whatever pant. But your pants actually, the next time I go to the Boundary Waters, I'll bring those because the pockets, again, the functionality, the waterproof, seeing water beat up on it, very similar characteristics. So it's funny that there's so many parallels on that going back to your what you mentioned before. So when you and Kyle were originally thinking about starting Harnish, was it always meant to be a pant company first, and you started with shirts because it was a lower hurdle to get
Alex Chou 11:35
to That's right? Yeah, well, I mean, perfecting and designing the pants took a lot of time, and we wanted to be just right. We didn't want to release anything that we didn't feel good about. So we went through lots of different iterations, different materials, the design changed a lot, and then we had issues and supply chain stuff, and we still we had people asking about the brand. And so a t shirt is kind of one of those basic things that you can help sell to support the brand. So that was, it was low hanging fruit in the beginning. But, yeah,
Mark D. Williams 12:04
yeah, interesting how? Because right now on the website, essentially, you've got shirts, long sleeve. You've got, of course, the creator pants now the soft shell. You've got your hats, kind of your normal staples. What are you I assume, by far, your T shirts are your best sellers right now.
Alex Chou 12:18
Yeah, everybody, yeah, as far as quantity goes. Yeah. I mean, people like what the brand stands for as well, and they want to support us. And that's kind of something that they can kind of break into and get used to the quality of what we provide. And then making that jump to the pants might be a little harder for some people. And I think it's about education, what makes our products different and better, and growing that awareness, which is what we're doing now.
Mark D. Williams 12:39
Where did the name come from Harnish? So that's
Alex Chou 12:42
actually Kyle's last name. It's a funny story, because when I first met him, I think the name was like, trade threads. And he's like, Well, what do you think? How can we create a logo here? And I was like, I feel like we could work on this a little bit more. So I went back to the drawing board, and I made a whole name list, and I went through it with him, and then I was looking at his last name, and I was like, Carhartt is kind of like, it's somebody's last name, and it stands for something. And getting to know Kyle at that point, I was like, why not call it Harnish workwear? It's got these 2h on either side. It's nice and symmetrical in that way. And it stands for what he believes in. And the whole thing is his vision. It makes a lot of sense to me. And then I combined all the other details after that. But he's like, all right, I guess we could do that. He's a humble guy, so it's like, ah, put it by name on it. But I think it was a good move. And everybody seems to really like the logo. I think
Mark D. Williams 13:31
when you have a personal brand, or when you have something, it's a lot easier when you're the founders. I think the hardest part is when the company gets bigger. I know I've heard this before, let's say, about Apple, Steve Jobs was a very polarizing figure. People really, he really was the culture. And then when he was gone for a while, the culture suffered, He came back. So leadership matters, but I guess where I'm going with this, as a company scales and gets bigger, if it can stay true to sort of its founder roots, or its personality or its ethos, the company usually does much better, because I think most of us sort of like the startup idea that we like a small company. We think they're more attentive, they're more real, they're more authentic, and they are all those things. And then, of course, as they get bigger, become more successful, it's not that they get away from those principles, but like as you scale a company, it just gets bigger and bigger. You get further removed a lot of times, from your clients and maybe even from yourself. And so it's always really appealing to me. I love call it bespoke companies, or companies that are very hands on, because there's a certain amount of authenticity and uniqueness about them that shows up in all sorts of ways that I think we sort of gravitate towards. I think that's why people like organic things. I know in building right now biophilic design is super big things that obviously anything that's made naturally is going to we just have a natural affinity to it, but they do make a lot of design things that appear to be natural. I'm thinking of Hardy playing, for example, like cedar siding. We know that there's going to be maintenance with it, but people like the feel, and our clients like it as a cladding. However, a lot of people don't like me. Units. So how you look right on the side of a hearty plank board, you've got the imprint of wood. It's fake. It's a print press that makes it look like it's real wood. And so anyway, I'm going a little deep here on this is just how people are, sort of are drawn towards anything that feels organic or real or as close to the source. I mean, that's how I value things. I'm guessing you've seen that as well, absolutely.
Alex Chou 15:21
I mean, being a startup, it's a struggle, and it's hard. I mean, we've had lots of challenges. In fact, it's funny, when you were testing that product, I think the product that you had was an earlier version, and we had a rip where, I think one of one of Nick's guys ripped a hole through the the cuff at the bottom, and he sent us a picture. And he was like, I don't know what you're gonna do about this. And I was like, All right, let's get back to the drawing board here and figure out how to fix this. And at that point, we were close to full scale production. So that was like my last opportunity to find a resolution. So I talked to our factory, which is great, and came up with an idea, maybe we need to take our super strong pa 50 shell fabric and cover that elastic band that seems to be the weaker one, and that's what we did, and it works out great. We have no rips for that cuff area, and that's performed really well. So you just have to pivot and do your best to find solutions. And it's a fight being the small guy, but staying true to who we are and what we stand for, I think, is really important at this stage in our development and beyond, as we grow as
Mark D. Williams 16:25
well. You guys have been in business for about three years, four years, a little
Alex Chou 16:29
over a year or two years, actually, because we, I mean, it started off as an idea, and then the full launch of the pants. So, okay, yeah, not too long,
Mark D. Williams 16:36
yeah. I mean, where I was going with this is kind of going back into and I think I know the answer now that I'm thinking about the question, which is that old, famous saying that necessity is the mother of invention. I mean, Kyle believed there was a wasn't a pant that either fit his derriere or that he liked well enough to like, Hey, I'm just going to buy this. So I'm going to create a company we had. The reason I'm thinking about this is we had Paul krumrich on from Greenway solar and donkey label, and, like, maybe a year ago, he does solar here in Minnesota, but he told us hilarious story where he's a big biker, and he was doing Iron Mans and those kinds of things, and he ordered a jersey from the UK, and he's a large Caucasian man from the United States. They just built were bigger framed, evidently. Anyway, the large was like, wouldn't even fit over his head. He needed, like, a triple XL from the UK companies. And so rather than send it back or order another $300 jersey, because it's really high end jersey, he started his own bike racing company apparel, just because he wanted it to be super cool. And now here, 15 years later, he still got this bike racing apparel company as, like, a side hobby. But where I'm going with this is, like, Kyle felt the need. He's like, rather than going and finding another pant or having it taken to a tailor to have it adjusted, I'm literally going to start my own company to make my own pants, because I want my own pants to fit that great.
Alex Chou 17:54
Yeah, exactly. And I love that. That's the mentality, right? It's like, make something and if you like it that way, or you want things a certain way, chances are there's other people that do as well and that will appreciate it.
Mark D. Williams 18:10
This episode is brought to you by adaptive. If you're still chasing checks and juggling spreadsheets, it's time to upgrade. Adaptive is revolutionizing how builders get paid with AI powered bill pay, automated draws, one click payments and built in lien waivers, Faster Payments, fewer headaches and total visibility. Adaptive takes care of the back end chaos, so you can focus on what you do best. Building. We've used adaptive for two and a half years, and trust them to keep our projects moving and payments flowing. Learn more at Adaptive dot build and simplify the Pay Process today. For more information, you can also listen to episode 10 and episode 15 if you've been listening to the podcast for a while now, or even if this is your first episode. I talk about the contractor coalition summit all the time. Our next one is happening November 7 through November 10 in Chicago, and all the details can be found at the contractor coalition summit.com. You've got Brad Levitt, Nick schifr, Tyler, Grace, Morgan, Molitor and myself will all be there. We've got great content over three days. You've got builders from all over the country try to get it to about that 30 people number. And we'll have sponsors as well that add a lot of value to each one of these dedicated days where you're talking about contracts and spreadsheets and margin and whether you're doing fixed bid or cost, plus your pre construction agreements. Ian, the list goes on and on and on. If you haven't been following it yet, you should the contractor coalition summit Instagram page is giving you a steady diet of the conversations that are being had, a lot of promo reels, a lot of the interviews that I've done personally at Omaha, which was my first contractor coalition, where I'm part of the leadership, interviewed all 36 people that attended, and we're going to be unveiling each one of their interviews over the next couple of months, so people that were not able to attend and would like to can kind of get a better idea of the value that builders are getting. So if you're going to sign up. And come to Chicago, you can type in the promo code, curious builder and get $2,500 off, and we'll see you in Chicago. I feel like our industry, I mean, people work so hard in general, outside, but we don't. And I think wellness takes in a lot of different factors, whether it's your health, obviously your physicality, being in shape, is a lot of different contexts. But really the stereotype, I've been saying it a lot that I sort of want to fight this stereotype that that exists, that build like, if you were to, if you were to close your eyes and say, What is a the average contractor of America look like? The stereotype would likely be fat, hairy, overweight, alcoholic, flannel, wearing, whatever the spirit and like, there's so many that are super fit and like they prioritize their health and all these different things. And like, meet people wherever they are. I'm not saying you have to be exact opposite of all those things. But just like, there's probably people out there that also believe in feeling great you mentioned earlier on, like the t shirt, like, if you feel good in it, you're also, I mean, if you feel good, you're going to perform better. So like, I've had a number of contractors who I've given our shirts to, or they see it, these, this young crew. I forget what's the word there was. He was not dope or tight. That's from, like, the 80s and 90s lit. I forget what it's a millennial word. I don't know, but, like, they fire, yeah. It's like, I don't know what I was wearing, but I wore the Creator pants in my modern craftsman shirt at the time when I got it. And the guys were like, I figured, now I can't remember the word, but it was like, they were like, commenting. It was these young framers, and they were commenting on the style, like, oh, that's tight. I want those. I wasn't tight, though. Something else was really funny. I was like, I didn't pick up on the lingo right away and but I think it matters, I guess is where I'm going to this. And you see, like, logos and storytelling, you know, it's all part of it, and Your vibe attracts your tribe. And I think if you put something out there that you believe in, I 100% agree with you, and Kyle, like, there will be an audience out there for it. That's why people create businesses, right?
Alex Chou 21:43
And I think there's something about that. How do you become a high performer in your field, right? Like, and I think you could start with different things, like your state of mind, your mentality, and how do you beat out the rest, or just do the best work? It's a mentality. It's a drive. And if you're if it takes a long hours to get there. You need to feel good, or you need to take care of yourself to get there. I mean, there's also other ways to get there which might not be as healthy, but at the end of the day, your health is all you have.
Mark D. Williams 22:11
Going back to the pant creation, because that was something that, that was the problem you really like, what goes into it? Like, I assume, correct me, if I'm wrong, this is just complete, just guessing. So like, if I'm gonna, if I want to have a shirt, I'm probably either going overseas, I'm trying to find somebody that wholesales like 1015, different kinds of shirt blanks. Have them send to me. I try on all of them, make a few tweaks, and away I go. Pants, I have to imagine are a lot harder, because you probably still start with a few blanks, or at least a few prototypes. Or, do you really start from, like, just, this is like a house, like, almost like an architect, like, you go to the architect and you say, like, Hey, I would like this house to cost $2 million I want four bedrooms. And, like, is it similar to that? You're like, Okay, I want my pants to do these six things. I want it to I want the end cost to be about 150 $200 or whatever you think that it's gonna cost or, like, how do you go about sort of whittling away the things that won't work so you can get kind of really dialed in on this pant specifically.
Alex Chou 23:11
So I'll make some assumptions about building as well, but I believe that it's probably similar. And Kyle will bring a product to me that he likes, and it could be not even a work wear related pant. And he just says, I like the fit of this. And then we'll look at other products that are on the market, and we'll say, Oh, I like the pockets here, and I like how that looks, and I like the functionality. So then we take all that stuff and we try to make the pants fit the way we want, and then have all of the stuff we want, and then we'll actually create our own design language, and we'll design the pant from scratch. And then once we get a pant where we're like, Okay, I think this will work, and it looks good, then we have to select our fabric. And I think fabric is like, a huge part of it too, because that's where you're going to get your feel, your look, your drape, the durability, which is number one for us too. Everything's number one for us, but it has to perform, and it has to be durable, but then it also has to stretch. And that's one of the things that you'll find, is that when things are really durable, they're rigid, and they don't have a lot of stretch. So how do we solve that problem of combining the two and then also making the fit, and then also having all of the stuff that you need in the pockets where you need them, and that's kind of the process. And then you go and you have that made, and you do a whole tech pack and everything, and using resources to get to find the best factories. And worked in the sports apparel industry for over 10 years. And so I've got some connections, and I visited Asia every six months for my whole career, and I got to see firsthand how they're done and seeing the quality for myself. And that's kind of what, that's pretty much what we're after, and that's where we're at now, is we have something that we've put all of that time and effort into, and now it's just a matter of refining,
Mark D. Williams 24:55
going back to sourcing, because it's no different than as I mentioned before as a. Builder. I depend on my subcontractors, my people, my cabinet shop. I mean, essentially, they're multi decade relationships to get to where I am at in terms of what I can execute. I assume that it's no different than not only the fabrics, but the people putting together, the shipping, the supply chain. And your history 10 years being in the industry that you were in, what did you learn that you were able to sort of bring in to Harnish. Is it like? Because I know, just from where I've seen, like, my backpacks made, or some of my clothes, I'll check the tags. It's like, Vietnam, China, Indonesia. Like, those are kind of the common players. Is there certain like, how do you navigate that? Like, okay, great. My Stuff comes from China. Okay, who do I call in China? Like, how does this process work? Like, how did you go about, sort of, either a selecting the mills and the factories and even doing these test packages of like, Hey, here's our sample design. We need you to make, you make a couple, send them back over. Like, what's walk us through a little bit that relationship building, how you select people, and then even those early proofs, like, how you get them back and, like, the time span, like, how long does this all take?
Alex Chou 26:01
Yeah, so that's a really good question. So working for large global sportswear companies, you can't really poach their production factories or anything like that, so we kind of had to start from scratch, pretty much. And that starts with the research on what kind of fibers do you want to use. We knew we wanted to use cordora and Dyneema, which are some of those strongest fibers that are known to man right now, that that are being used in textiles. And so then you have to work backwards and say, Okay, well, then who's making these, these fibers, and how can we make our own textiles? And who can we contact? So you start with the parent companies, and you reach out and you say, You're, I'm interested in doing this thing, and then they'll kind of give you options, and then you reach out, and you just kind of see what they have to offer and start a relationship. And it gets expensive too, because you have to pay for trial runs of things. You have to test things and collect data. So yeah, it's a really long process, and there's no one there holding your hand telling you, like, oh, well, go this way. You have to really do the legwork. So yeah, it can be really tough. And then we had a factory in one country, and we spent a whole year and a half developing and iterating, and then come to find out, the quality is not that good, and we pulled the plug last minute. We didn't pull the trigger there. And then we started from scratch and we went to a different country. So it's just a matter of trial and error at the end of the day to learn form a relationship that's going to last you. Because when communication is bad, things move slow, and we can't afford to be moving slowly. I'm sure it's the same with building a structure where you have deadlines and then you have weather you're dealing with, and you got to get stuff done before the winter time, and you just got to move.
Mark D. Williams 27:44
Well, I mean, when you guys were shipping the pants last year, it was right after the election, and so all the tariffs were being threatened on I remember, I think a lot of your containers were being held up. So it's like, yeah, I was like, well, when are we going to get these? And you're like, I have no idea. I don't know shipping either. So it's like, there's always, well, you're probably less dependent on weather. You have to worry more about international sea travel. Actually, you are dependent on weather. If there's a typhoon or a hurricane happening, that's going to probably impact some of your shipments.
Alex Chou 28:12
So, but geopolitical, definitely. I mean, when you're a global production, I mean, that's the other thing too. The reason why we're, I mean, some people will say, Oh, American made, American made. And they're very much stand by that, which is fine and but our products, we wanted to stand out and be some of the best. And you really have to have a global reach in order to get those resources in order to make something truly special, at least at this time. So yeah, having your factories in different countries and your products are made in different areas, definitely, the geopolitical climate can cause some other issues, which makes it exciting, but also you got to learn how to pivot, right?
Mark D. Williams 28:47
Oh, for sure. What are some of the what are some? Just because I mentioned to you before, we're doing a series on Thursdays called losers are winners. But what are some early fail stories where you're like, I'm just picturing like, a pair of pants. Come in, you put them on, you roll up the zipper, the pants, just like, splits in half, or, like, what are some early things? You're like, oh, man, that's a pretty epic fail. And what did you learn from them?
Alex Chou 29:07
Yeah, well, I mean that that cuff separation that I told you about earlier, that's one of the big ones. But what was specifically happening so the elastic cuff is a weaker fabric because it has so much elastane in it for it to stretch, it was ripping with the pressure from those silicone bands inside the cuff. They grip really well. And so what the guys were doing is they were putting their pants on with socks, and their feet were their socks were grabbing onto the grips, and then it was just ripping the band Exactly. So that was the weaker fabric, but it was there to create that stretch in that how'd you fix it? So we took the shell fabric and we brought it down over the cuff to protect it, and that will create the strength that it needs, so it's all one, instead of a piece that's sewn on top. And then with our hoodies, that was another challenge. I think Kyle and I. I wanted the hoodies to have a certain feel and a weight to them. And I think everybody who tries on our Pioneer one hoodie is impressed, and it definitely has that heaviness to it's one of the heaviest hoodies available. But I think we wanted it to be fluffier and have more like of that pocketed insulation, but it's a very durable, thick fabric, and I think that was something that we didn't quite get in front of. And then production was going and we're like, Ah, we're not really that happy with this, but we've already kind of pulled the trigger on it. Because the other thing too is you're looking at six month lead times with stuff. They got to knit the fabric, and then they've got to construct the fabric. So you're kind of planning a year out, and for a small brand like us, we're trying to hit like hoodie season, things aren't going well. We had fabric, our fabric coming in, and it had like lines in it, our Dyneema fabric, they were knitting it, and we were like, This is unacceptable. We can't have lines and streaks in this. How can we fix it? So then we went back and it's like, do we re dye it? Do we re knit it? How do we work with that? Can we cut out part of it? And when you lose money, if you can't use all the fabric that you paid for? So it's just a matter of, like, learning curves and working with those partners to try to perfect it, and it's a challenge. But, yeah, it's very exciting. I wouldn't change it for
Mark D. Williams 31:18
the world. No, it sounds like it. And from a design standpoint. Now, I know you're kind of obviously the graphic design and a lot of the higher level design, are you? I mean, is this when you were doing merchandising and clothing for your previous decade? I mean, it was that your role, were you designing clothes? I mean, whether it's software, like, how does one go about designing clothing?
Alex Chou 31:40
Yeah, so I went to a fashion school. I have a fashion background, but my main focus was on branding and graphics. So that's kind of where I started. But I was always working on these cross functional teams and seeing how footwear was being designed in apparel. And I was like, I could do that. I'm the type of person that's like, I'm a DIY. So I'll dive into something that I've never done before, and just try it out and learn that way. So that's kind of how I learned with apparel design, watching these designers work and trying it out myself, and I really enjoy it. It's actually really fun, and that's kind of how and then we had freelancers come help us out as well. So learning from them and helping us, we have a great team behind us as
Mark D. Williams 32:21
well. Now you have so what are some of the things? I mean, we know on the backside that quality and some of the things that aren't out there these bigger companies. Like, why does innovation always have its day? So, like, big brands, and I guess I won't say them, but there's some huge brands out there, Ian construction workspace that we all know of. Like, I assume that they're innovating. They have teams like, where is it that when a company gets so big that a small company like yours can flourish in competition against them, is it just because sometimes, whatever's out there, people just want option B, just because they like different like when you go to the framers or the trimmers, or whoever's buying the products, like when you're testing these both, like, ns builders, what are the people saying? Like, they're giving up their standard outfit, if you will, and trying to harness stuff. Like, what are they saying? Like, what is the difference? Like, why switch?
Alex Chou 33:11
That's a good question. It's great to talk to these guys, because they really are in tuned, and they've tried different things, and they know what they want, and they know what they're looking for. And they'll come to us and they'll say, hey, look, I'm looking for this thing. I couldn't find it. I mean, can you guys develop it? Are you working on this? Or they'll name drop a brand, like, I like this brand because of this, but they're really not durable, like people say, or like they claim to be, but I like this and this about it, it just doesn't hold up. And so we're coming to the table with solutions to those problems and say, okay, look, our fabrics, they're way more expensive than what you've been wearing, because it can stand up to it. And then it's got all the things that you like about it. And I think those are holes that aren't being filled by these other bigger brands too, because it comes down to cost. And working for a big brand too, it's always about cost. It's always like, oh, we can't do that. It has to be this price point. But with me and Kyle, we're just like, F it, dude. Like, let's just go for the old like, yeah, which is really exciting to design like that, because we can literally get the best of the best fibers and textiles, and we'll use them. And yeah, it costs us a lot of money, and it's a lot of upfront, but at the end of the day, the product, you can feel the quality of it and it will perform for you. Because for us, it's not about cost, it's about quality.
Mark D. Williams 34:27
I love that, and I also like that you have all these beta testers who are more than, I mean, who isn't willing to try out stuff, even if they give relationships with the heads of companies like myself or nick or whoever. But you know, obviously we give it to our people like they're happy to wear it, and especially if you're saying, like, Hey, give us feedback people, it's not very often that your average layman is going to get an opportunity to sort of be a product tester. Like, there's got to be something that's actually probably kind of cool about it for them too, to say, oh, hey on the next time. What are some stories that people have said, Hey, could you have a pocket for this? Or this is like, something that I really wanted. Be like, actually, that's a great idea. We're gonna add it to the pants. Do you have any stories like that?
Alex Chou 35:04
Yeah, absolutely. In fact, I'll fill you in on kind of our design process. We had this cool, like, asymmetrical idea in mind, and we had another pant version that hasn't come out, that was like the predecessor to the Creator one. And we just kind of carried that story through. And then as people start wearing them, they're like, I really like the pockets on here, but can we have it on the other side? So I think more pockets might be in our future.
Mark D. Williams 35:33
This episode is brought to you by Pella windows and doors. I've used Pella for 21 years as the exclusive window company on every one of my builds, when people ask me who I trust for windows and doors, it's Pella every time, their craftsmanship, their innovation, the top tier service, make them a no brainer for any custom home builder or designer who demand the best, whether you're designing something bold or building something with timeless elegance, Pella has you covered. They're also the only window company that has a lifetime warranty on all of their windows. I've gotten to know all their people at Pella corporate, as well as locally here at Pella Northland, I'm proud to call them our partners and our friends. Visit pella.com to learn more and connect with your local reps. Today for more information, you can also listen to episode one, where I interview the Pella Northland founders, as well as episode 109 where we talk all about their latest innovation with the study set window. Well, it's funny, so I happen to be and actually just dropping off of the tailor yesterday across the street. I've been delaying it for months, so I have they say, I don't know if you know this, but like, I was talking to someone in fashion, and they said that buying habits, that men shop horizontally and women shop vertically. Have you ever heard this? That makes a lot of sense. So to paint a picture for the audience is like, let's say you go and you buy a pair of jeans, black jeans, let's say and they fit. And you're like, I love these. So then you go and you buy all the other kinds of pants in that color, same fit. And so now you have, let's just say, this example, four pairs of pants different colors, but they're all the same, so they're great. Okay, now I've got variety where, stereotypically a woman, let's say she gets a pair of pants, she'll match it with a shirt and with shoes. So she's shopping vertically, where men are shopping horizontally, because they want to remove their thought process. I just thought it was really interesting perspective, and it's totally true. I was my brother in law. It's been two years we were for his graduation gift from our family. I said, you can go anywhere you want in the world and that, and I'll take you there. And so he chose Italy. So anyway, long story short, we went to Italy. Odd enough, I'm wearing one of the shirts that I got with him right now. But anyway, I bought four pairs of pants from the same company. Super cool styling. They work out perfect. I wear them all the time, especially in the summer, when it's hot here, because the material is just really light anyway. Long story short, all of the pockets have blown out in the exact same place on the back. And I took it into the the tailor, right down the street from me in my office, and she and I said, why? I said, why are all these back pockets blowing out? And she goes, too much money, and it was so funny. I'm like, well, it's not too much money. I think it's my phone, but all of them were blowing out in the bottom part. And so if I was to give them feedback, it'd be like, make a heavier stitch in your back pocket. But it's so weird that of all, my pants are all blowing out in the exact same place in the exact same rear pocket, which is just sort of but you would never know that if you didn't wear it for a year and a half two years, because it's not going to break
Alex Chou 38:20
right and the designers, they might not have been thinking about that. Or maybe the construction was just in a way where it's like, oh yeah, this is working. And you don't know it until you really put it through the paces, which is what we're doing now with this first iteration. It's like, we some people will get it and they'll say, this is really nice, like, I don't want to really, like, ruin it. And we're like, no, mess it up. Put it through the paces. If you rip something, let us know, because we want to fix it on the next
Mark D. Williams 38:45
one. Yeah, no, that's what how every business is has to deal with cash flow. I mean, all businesses, as entrepreneur, you've got cash flow, you've got hiring, you've got firing, you've got marketing. You have so much time in the beginning where you're iterating, you're designing. How are you guys managing cash flow, because it's got to be hard, because you aren't able to sell it till you develop it. So a little bit like a builder doing a model home, like you have to get bank financing, you have to buy the land, you got to build the house, but the payoff is not for a year and a half, and hopefully for most builders, you can maybe get a few build jobs off of that home that maybe will help pay for that as a loss leader. Is it similar in terms of, like, how you are structuring a business, because you have to design these things, so initially you're pumping a lot of money into this business, and then obviously t shirt sales were obviously meant to sort of subsidize or bring in. It had to be obviously on brand, and they certainly are. But the idea is like, you still have to make payroll once a month. Like, is it just like any other business is constantly the seesaws of life, some months are better than others. Or, how does one sort of, I mean, you launched this pant. This pant was really been several years in the making, and it's only been launched less than a year, and you're still working on it. It just paint a picture of, like. How do you keep at it? Because you still have to sell. I mean, you still need you still need to have proceeds coming in.
Alex Chou 40:05
Yeah, that's a great question. I feel like it's more of a Kyle question. He does what he can to support it financially, and he's out there building homes, and he's used to that, that pain tolerance as well, because, like you said, the homes, they take a lot of financial burden upfront, where you're shelling out for materials and labor, and then you get the payoff at the end, when the house sells. But yeah, I do freelance on the side too, to bring in cash and just a dedication. You're really just pushing hard and hoping that it pay off, pays off later on, and you get the support of our community. And I think HRH label service has been a huge part of the business that's helped keeping us afloat, because we provide products that companies like yourself can customize, and that's a constant cash flow, and it's easy for us to provide that service. And then as far as the individuals out there that are looking for that high end work where we're still trying to get the name out there and have people test us out and try us out and let them know that we're here, and, yeah,
Mark D. Williams 41:09
like in social media, I was just thinking about this. I don't know if this is true in merchandising, but like, you think of like, collaborations. So like, obviously, I collaborate with architects, I collaborate with designers, which is kind of, it's always been that way in terms of building a house, but, you know, you see for so in social media, like, Hey, if you're gonna do a joint post, like, both brands benefit from sort of cross promotion. Is there any sort of place where, let's say, a company like Harnish can cross promote with other brands to really elevate both brands? And what would those brands even
Alex Chou 41:40
be absolutely we're kind of focused on the high end development side of things, and so a lot of our partners have been like, upscale, I'm drawing a blank on it, the industry landscaping. Okay, so high end landscaping, and then we've grown a lot in Canada, surprisingly, high end home building in Canada. And so, yeah, just partnering with those like minded people that have a sense of quality and craftsmanship, that really care about what they're building and what they're making. So it's anywhere from artists, builders, landscapers, people who create things. I mean, that's one of the reasons why we named the pants creator one, because these are for people who create so anybody who really, you know, embodies that mentality and is striving to be better than they were before and being a master at their craft, no matter what that is, kind of who we're looking to work with,
Mark D. Williams 42:34
what, as we wrap in the rest of this year, what would make this year successful? Or basically like, what's, what's kind of exciting as you kind of close in on this year, and then really sort of look towards next because, as you mentioned, you're oftentimes looking six months out like right now. You're selling hoodies because we're going into a colder cycle. I would imagine you have to be those orders have already sort of happened, or at least your stock is in, and then you can custom brand them based on inquiries sales and things like that. But what does next spring look like, or what does your downstream look like?
Alex Chou 43:04
That's a good question. I mean, we're shooting from the hip over here, so I can tell you that we are developing other products in tandem. It's really exciting to get something out the door and have great factory relationships and dive into new products and new testing. That's the other thing too. Is when you're trying to develop a new fabric that's just different from anything else like you. That takes a lot of time too, trying different fabric blend, fiber blends, and seeing how they hold up. But yeah, how does that look? I think if we get a lot of awareness in q4 from doing things like this, being on with you, I appreciate it. I think that would be successful and getting feedback from our customers. Tell us what you like about it, what you don't like about it, email us, communicate with us. I think that's one of the big aspects that I love about doing this, is getting to meet all the people. You've brought a lot of H label customers to us and your community and your network, and they're all amazing people, and they're fun to get to know and talk to and provide a service to and get to know their businesses. And so really, trying to grow that community is important to us and have that communication.
Mark D. Williams 44:08
Yeah, I was thinking of another business, just as, I don't know that much about it, but, like, you'd like taste samplings, right? So you see them at, like, my sister in law sells wholesale natural wine, and so a big part of her business is doing events and just handing out their natural products. And it's like, as soon as someone tastes the difference, then they want to buy some. I mean, it's an old thing. I mean, this isn't new, but like, as going back to, like, whenever I give away your shirts, people always comment, oh man, I It's funny, because actually, the number one wear of your shirts is my clients, kids. I think I my joke is that by time I retired, I'm going to be in so demand, because there is a lot of nine to 14 year olds running around the Twin Cities with curious builder apparel and Mark Williams Custom Homes apparel that they swipe from their parents. So their parents come in, I talk to them, I give it as part of their greeting package. Or I give some of my clients or some of my guests that come in studio on the podcast, I'll give them some apparel and sure shooting. In, like, a week to 10 days, I'll get a picture, and whoever came in will say, Hey, do you have any more? My teenager swiped the hats you gave me, or swiped the shirts you gave me or the water bottle. And it's just so funny. Like, I think just the power of branding, like, they like stuff that's different. They don't like commodities, and just in general, people, and then people like the foot fit and feel of it. And so if there was a way to sort of monetize, or, like, basically, you could do, like, a special, like, hey, we'll outfit your company with shirts. But you know, if your kids want it, we can do custom orders for your kids, because they're going to want all these extra shirts, or order 10 more, because everyone in your family is
Alex Chou 45:38
going to want one. It's funny that you mentioned that, because there's another client of ours. Shout out to Hunter from Double H collective. He got a bunch of youth teas from us as well with his logo on it. Yeah, kids love them. I mean, that's the other thing too. Is your kids are part of your business, and they live that life too, and they're affected by it, so why not have them be a part of it? And then backing up to giving away stuff? Do you want to give something away. Live on this podcast, we want
Mark D. Williams 46:04
to give away. I think we did before was like, if you join so right now, I can just maybe tell the audience what you already know about. Like, so the curious builder Collective is in we're in four states, we're going to launch into two more. And what we usually do is we don't tell people about it, but when you're in the collective, once a quarter, will usually give something that's on brand, that's specific to the curious builder, but is also specific to construction. So we've given away these really cool notebooks. We've given away many of your shirts, 1000s of the curious builder podcasts and curious collective shirts. We've also done, what else have we done? Hats and a gig. Back to your comment of like Kyle created the pants because he wanted something that fit him. I actually went through this phase I was getting into Ultra running, and I think I ordered like 10 or 15 different hats from all these different companies because I wanted the perfect hat to run in. And usually when you sweat, and same with construction, those hot summer days, you get the salt lines. Well, shout out to the company, BOGO. I ended up getting this really cool mountain running hat, and then I customized and did my own thing with it, and now I hand it out to everyone. And those, that's the one that kids steal, left, right and center, but they're sweat proof, and so it's perfect. Anyway. Those are things that I've given away. I'm trying to think of, what do you want to give away live?
Alex Chou 47:14
Well, we've given away pants to Yeah, and let's do that. Let's give away some pants. Let's give away an entire setup. Let's do the Pioneer hoodie and the
Mark D. Williams 47:23
pants. All right, done. How do we want people to to get the is it whoever shares it with 10 people? Is it someone that the first person to call you that asked her to listen to this website like, what do you want the call to action to be in order to be the winner?
Alex Chou 47:38
That's a great question. I don't know. Maybe we get people to sign up for a curious builder podcast, or one of your events, and they get into a drawing, or they
Mark D. Williams 47:47
probably just get it actually, we could do that. How about this? You're the idea guy. I well, I can give away your stuff. Easy. That's, yeah, that's easy. I mean, one thing we could do. How about this? So we have the curious. We have the contractor coalition Summit coming up in Chicago, November 7 through the 10th, and Nick schifr will be there. Mono craftsman Tyler will be there. I'll be there. Brad Levitt will be there. So why don't we come up? I'm trying to think we should put it Curt tail on this. Why don't we give it one week? Whoever signs up within one week of this episode airing gets a full free kit. So you get a you get the hoodie, and you get the Creator pants. How about that, of course, and a T shirt. We got a t shirt, and the t shirt the whole suite. So there you go. There you will put it in that. We'll put the link in the show notes as well. But yeah, I like it. There's a
Alex Chou 48:33
little and then maybe off camera. We'll sprinkle some other free stuff in there. So stay tuned, or watch out for never done a
Mark D. Williams 48:40
live iteration of what that was going to be. I was like, how much stuff you want me to give away? Because I can give away your stuff. I always thought a really good idea, because again, and this is where you have to invest the money on your side is hard from your point of view, because it costs money. But I know it's true, which is the collective like, I know if you gave it, because in this case, I give the shirts to everyone. But if you had, like, a call to action, like a car, like a car, like, any person that gets the shirt is gonna want it for their own company, or at least ask themselves this question, why don't I have this now, whether they choose to do it or not, obviously it's still left to those business owners. But I gotta believe that if somehow you can just get these shirts into the hands of business owners, and they wear them like a T shirt, wearing challenge like, from the point that they wear one to the time that they order one. Making it super simple for them, that would be a huge force multiplier in terms of sales. I don't know what the giveaway is. It's like, I mean, is it obviously, everyone on the curious builder podcast, who's ever been on, you give them one, and then they have to, I mean, you have to do a call to action too. So it's like, hey, anyone that's been on the podcast? I think we've had 140 guests, something like that, gets a shirt for being on the podcast, but it for in order to get one, you have to basically do a testimonial, or, like a video of you and post it on your social media account. I mean, that would be a pretty powerful way you just we've just powered up 140 business owners to talk about your. So there we go. I think that actually, that idea is actually even better than another
Alex Chou 50:03
one. I love it. Yeah. I mean, we got to execute on some of those. But we love your community as well. So giving away stuff that for the people who just follow along, that's also a nice little perk there, too. So yeah, all right.
Mark D. Williams 50:15
Well, we'll steam it up. I appreciate you coming on the podcast today. Personally. What? What are you most excited to excited for when you're not designing shirts and pants and kind of the next iteration for harness. What do you like
Alex Chou 50:27
to do? Oh, I love to surf. And in the New England area, the best time is in the wintertime. Unfortunately, it's very cold. So I like to surf. And I just bought my first mountain bike I've been I've loved biking and mountain biking, and I did it when I was younger, and as an adult, I just haven't had that opportunity. But now I've finally bought my first mountain bike, so I've been taking my kids out, and I'm looking to do some pretty crazy trails. At some point. I am getting older, so I have to take it easy.
Mark D. Williams 50:52
But nice. Did Are you from like, the West Coast, or did you learn surfing on the East Coast? East Coast? Nice. Did I say west coast? No, but I'm just like, I don't know that many Surfers on the East Coast. I mean, I know you have it. I mean, in Minnesota, it's funny you say that. So up in the North Shore, Lake Superior, the best surfing is in January. Well, you can imagine, when it's negative, 20 people surfing. They do. They've done these great documentaries on it and like that. Just the ice all over their face. I mean, just ridiculous. But they, it's kind of gets kind of cultish, like, they have their little breaks and very territorial, of like, but it's also freshwater. I remember them doing an interview. It was like, Well, yeah, we don't have to wash our wetsuits when we're done with salt water, any of that stuff. You don't have to worry about crowds because it's zero degrees or below zero in January, up until and like, dude, that sounds so miserable. I don't know if they're wearing like, two three mil poly or, sorry, three mil wetsuits. If it's six mil, eight mil, I'd be curious to know, like, how thick their wetsuits get, because it's, I mean, that's no joke,
Alex Chou 51:46
yeah. I mean, you got a winter I got a winter suit. And the thing is, though you got the hood too, but it doesn't cover your face. And so if you think the water is cold in New England in the summertime, I mean, you just wait until the wintertime when it hits your face, if you wipe out on your board, your whole face like shrinks, and you get an instant headache because all the muscles in your head are just like,
Mark D. Williams 52:06
can you put like, Vaseline or aquifer or some sort of, like gel or something on your body to help keep it warmer? Or no,
Alex Chou 52:15
I've heard about that, and I've considered it, but I haven't tried it yet. I think this season, maybe I'll try it now.
Mark D. Williams 52:20
Let's use I'm a I'm a swimmer, but mostly just sprinting stuff. I've thought about doing some open water swims, but I was just just briefly looking at the English Channel, which is way above what I'm planning on doing. But I believe way back when they did it, they used to, quote, cover their body in like, lard or some sort of oily substance that would that was before they had wetsuits. That's how they kept their body insulated?
Alex Chou 52:41
Is that also for like, hydro? I mean, it would be,
Mark D. Williams 52:44
yeah, yeah. You'd be super hydrodynamic, I would imagine. But I think the main reason was heat. I don't know we'd have to do a Google search on that one, but there you go. I want you to take, like, lard, maybe some spam. We'll get that's out of Minnesota. We'll get you a can of Spam, and you can, like, rub like meat all over your face, and everyone be like, What are you doing? Like, I thought it's like, well, my buddy Mark said we didn't have any lard or aquifer, so I'm just gonna spread on some spam on my face.
Alex Chou 53:08
It'll either be really great for my skin, or the next time I'm on your podcast, I'll be all like, breaking out and everything.
Mark D. Williams 53:13
You'll look like Hamburger Helper. Well, we've completely gone off the rails for this ending. We'll have everything in the show notes, and I'm really excited to see how many people will sign up for a contractor coalition and get their free swag. Let's do it all right. Thanks for coming on, buddy.
Alex Chou 53:27
Thanks Mark. Appreciate it. Thank you for having me.
Mark D. Williams 53:30
We have a consulting page one to one consulting you can book my time for one hour. Perhaps you've heard a guest where you like one of the topics. Maybe you want an introduction to some of the guests that I've had on. Perhaps you want to talk about branding or marketing or anything that we've covered on the podcast over the last two and a half years, you can book a time at curious builder podcast.com. Thanks for tuning in to curious builder podcast. If you like this episode, do us a favor. Share it with three other business owners. The best way that we can spread what we're doing is by word of mouth, and with your help, we can continue to help other curious builders expand their business. Please share it with your friends. Like and review online and thanks again for tuning in.
This episode is sponsored by:
**Anyone who signs up to Contractor Coalition Summit between 10/6/2025 and 10/13/2025 gets a free apparel kit from Harnish.
