Episode 165 - Scott Jaffa on Money, Value, & Why You Should Never Negotiate With Your Architect
#165 | Scott Jaffa | Jaffa Group Design Build | Why You Should Never Negotiate With Your Architect
Scott Jaffa is a rare breed — an architect who's also a GC with an in-house interior design team — and the way he talks about money, value, and client relationships makes it immediately clear why his clients are willing to watch a $3 million remodel quietly become a $10 million one. Mark and Scott dig into why the farm-to-table model works better than assembling a team of strangers, how Scott used a Botox analogy to shut down a client's appliance markup complaint, and why believing in your own value is the most underrated business skill nobody teaches you. This one's equal parts architecture masterclass and hard-won entrepreneurial wisdom.
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About Scott Jaffa
Scott leads the Jaffa Group as a licensed architect, licensed general contractor, and certified green building professional. He received his undergraduate education at Emory University and earned a master’s degree in architecture from the University of Florida. His studies also included a year in Vicenza, Italy. He served eight years as the project manager for the Bass residence of Ft. Worth and the Busch residence of St. Louis. Since 1994, Scott and his firm, Jaffa Group, have built an impressive portfolio of award-winning homes in the Park City area. He is well known and highly regarded for his unique and lasting designs built to exacting quality standards. Scott’s professional experience spans all facets of a successful homebuilding project, including: site acquisition, land planning, job cost estimating, budget analysis and construction, architecture, and design.
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Visit the Jaffa Group Design Build Website
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Scott Jaffa 00:00
I what I need to understand is how my clients view money, and that is always very, very important, that I need to tailor who I am and how I present myself to who's sitting across the table from me. I don't change who I am, I don't change my esthetic. I don't change the core, but being able to communicate and understand so I can meet their needs and expectations. Today,
Mark D. Williams 00:31
on the curious builder podcast, we had Scott Jaffa Ian from Park City, Utah, and this is going to be an amazing episode. Scott is an architect at GC. They also keep internal design in house as well, and it really comes across his confidence, his experience with his clients, and really his value proposition and just the thought process around money. You're going to love this episode. Without further ado, here's Scott Jaffa. Welcome
Mark D. Williams 00:53
to
Mark D. Williams 00:55
curious builder Podcast. I'm Mark Williams, your host. Today I'm going out to Salt Lake City. We've got Scott Jaffa with the Jaffa group design build. Welcome Scott. Thanks for coming
Scott Jaffa 01:05
on. Thank
Mark D. Williams 01:06
you, Mark. So you're a very interesting cat. As I was doing a little research on you, it's very rare. We've had a few of them on where we have an architect who's also a GC. And honestly, I'd like to start a little bit with obviously, we can go just briefly your history and how you got into it, but I always find that you're such a rare unicorns. There's not that many. And I'm always, I'm always sort of perplexed why there isn't more. It seems like people usually fall in one camp or the other. So let's start with that question, I guess is, what led you to wear both hats? Because there's pros and cons, and it's very rare, and so I'm always kind of curious the psychology behind psychology behind that. You know that decision?
Scott Jaffa 01:44
I was an architect in Washington, DC, and I was doing a lot of my work in Texas, and there was such a disconnect between what we were doing in the office in Washington and what the contractor was doing in Fort Worth. So it seemed to me that these two ought to come together. And then the more I read, architects were builders. Back in the 20th century, 19th century, we were master builders. And then somehow that got pulled apart, where there was a builder and an architect, and architect became a profession, and we pulled ourselves away from the getting our hands dirty, and what I have found is that I have more control over the final product when I am involved in the construction on a day to day basis, not actually just overseeing the construction, but actually immersed in it, which is goes to why I only do six to eight houses a year, because that's really what I can keep track of in my brain without always having binders and manuals to go to. So Ian, walk into a project and I can say, hey guys, that's not right. Or, why did we go this route instead of this route? So it it makes my job easier. And then, you know, we also do interiors in the office again. Because I think if you start out with the same person at the beginning of the project and follow the same thread all the way through to the end, you get a a feeling of everything works together or just flows together so seamlessly, and you don't get that when you have two or three different parties involved in a project.
Mark D. Williams 03:33
So I'd love to, and obviously, you know, I think that I won't mean this adversarially, but I'd love to tease out the pros and cons. Because, certainly there's pros and cons. I'm curious. I, first of all, I agree with everything you said. Like, obviously, if you have the mastermind group all the way through, especially if a client comes to you and says, This is my end goal, you know, if you control everything in the kitchen, I guess it's like a restaurant analogy, but you sort of weird. If you went to a steakhouse and, like, hold that thought, I gotta go across the street to get your steak and like, I have to go over here to get your dessert. Like you, it makes sense. You do it all in house. And I think your perspective on that, like, historically, you know, the architects were the ones rolling up the sleeves and doing a lot of the work. So it just made sense. And I, I have found that doing this podcast and interviewing people around the country that people view architect architecture a lot differently. In the country, in the Midwest, most of the builders that I know, and myself included, most of the clientele, have been conditioned to go to builders first, and then I assemble the team. But on the coasts, it seems to be inverted. It seems to be more architect driven. And then you assemble the team, if you're not doing an all under one roof, like you are. And then the south design is usually front heavy. These are just stereotypes. But as you've been around the industry, does that seem to kind of seem what you've observed as well, or not necessarily?
Scott Jaffa 04:49
Yes, and I find that Park City, of a lot of places in the country, really appreciates good design and architecture, and I feel very for. Fortunate to be working in a city that that the expectations are set so high of what things should look like, how things should be detailed, and how everything goes together, that people start with the architect and then move to the builder. But to go with your analogy of, you know, a restaurant, if you go to a steakhouse, you're not going to go across the street to across the street to buy steak. Some of the best restaurants are farm to table, where they grow their own food and then they cook it, because they have more control over the entire product.
Mark D. Williams 05:33
I 100% agree with you. What do you think the barrier is? Why don't we see more firms that have it all in house? Is it lack of interest, lack of training, because, I suspect, and I'm not putting shade on builders, but it seems like it'd be harder to be an architect than it would be harder to be a builder. But maybe that's because I'm a builder and I because that's all I know. I think it's not that. It's easy, but like, I know what's your perspective? You're both.
Scott Jaffa 05:54
I think they they both have their challenges, and I think they work together perfectly and seamlessly in our office. I think some of the challenges I see is a lot of or some clients will if it's one person, a lot of clients don't think that there are enough checks and balances in the equation. And I would disagree that it's a more seamless, easier situation, and everything just flows together. So if something is forgotten or left out, there's no finger pointing, like, for example, if there was a separate architect, separate designer, well, the designer didn't order the tile, or the architect forgot to include the beam. There's a lot of finger pointing, a lot of hold up. And you know, we don't have that in the office. We take care of all of that well that may occur. It's all behind the scenes. So the client never sees that. All they see is a very seamless process from the onset to the completion.
Mark D. Williams 06:53
I agree with that. How big is your team?
Scott Jaffa 06:55
15 people.
Mark D. Williams 06:56
Okay, so
Mark D. Williams 06:57
it's pretty good. Pretty good size. The reason i i assume one of the ways, because I'd imagine clients often ask this question, and your response would be similar to what you just said. But I think you're, in some ways, you're building those teams. Correct me if I'm wrong, it's your business, but I imagine you're building those teams within house, and so you're having these discussions. You know maybe that you have probably a director of construction, or someone who's probably more savvy on the construction side, and on those internal meetings, they're the ones saying, like, Hey, I love this detail, but how am I supposed to support it? And you're like, Oh, that's a great question. Let's look into that. And so you're still having because I do believe that, you know, the checks and balances are great, it's just that your checks and balances are in house. Is that accurate?
Scott Jaffa 07:36
Absolutely. So going to your analogy, if there's a detail that's missing, we'll sit down with the superintendent and the project manager and the project architect, and what are we trying to what does the client expect? What are we trying to come across? What's the easiest way to build it? Because we all know that pure architecture can be very expensive, so if we draw a detail just in a vacuum of what and we think it should be, as an architect, when we send it out to the field, myself, as a builder, I'm going to look at this detail. It's like, this is insane. This is so expensive to detail we can modify it to give the client what they're looking for, and the finished product isn't going to to change at all. So let's modify the detail. So it becomes more affordable to the client. I think that's what you get when you have an all inclusive team like we have. I
Mark D. Williams 08:28
mean, I think from a client or user experience, I mean, it's got to be phenomenal. It's like going to a high end hotel. It's like everything you have, a point person, a concierge, it's like the one person kind of checks all the boxes and fourth quarter. We're reading a book called unreasonable hospitality, and which is really kind of what you're doing. It's people don't people don't expect what you are delivering to them. Why do you think you've been in our industry a long time, and certainly, you know other architects and GCS that are under one roof, we see, we tend to see that maybe in sometimes bigger companies, but you're kind of in this the six to eight range is one thing we'll talk about in a little bit. I love that personally, because it aligns with what how I run my company as well. But why? What do you think the barrier is that more architects don't keep GC in house, or, I'm not saying that there's not design build firms, but it seems to be the design build firms I'm aware of are builder led, and they'll have a drafts person. That's usually not a full on architect, not that. I mean, we're splitting hairs here because I that's a whole nother road we can go down here later if we want. But it's, it's more often that if I see builders in my network that I know plenty, and they do design in house, they hire an architectural designer, which is fine, and then they list themselves as a design build, which, again, that's their business model. It works really well. But at the highest end, it tips typically, at least in the market I work in, it's architects, it's builders, it's designers. You assemble the team, which I love niches. You know, they always say riches in the niches, if you will. And so I love the idea that it's one of the things that sets you apart. But what do you think the barrier is that? Why? Why don't more people structure this company? The. Way that you have
Scott Jaffa 10:01
because it's not easy, and you being a an architect, it you can reach out to a lot of builders to get more work. I don't have that. I can't do that as a builder. You can reach out to a lot of architects to get more work. I can't do that either, because everyone sees me as competition. But what, while there are other design build firms in the area, they're more high end production firms is, and I don't mean to throw shade or anything, because they do beautiful work, but they don't do what we do to the level of detail that we do all the way through. I've seen their products. The products are beautiful and they are nice homes, but they're not what we do and what we do nobody else has done. And again, because it's not easy, and you have to really pay attention and focus on what you're doing. And fortunately, the clients that we have, I've found in Park City really appreciate the combination of everything under one roof, and they go to one person, like you were saying a concierge, like they have one person to take care of all of their needs. Right now, we're working on a very large remodel. When I met with the clients, they said they wanted a budget of $3 million I left the first meeting, it ended up at $4 million is what I told them it was going to be, and we are now pushing 10 million, and it's because of changes that they've asked for, and modifications and additions. But it's clients like this. And I'm not saying every client is like that, because they are a rarity, but they understand the value, and that's really what all the clients want to understand. It's not based on what they spend. It's, is it a value? Am I getting a value from what I'm adding or what I'm doing? And because I I wear so many different hats, I can give them the value and not say, Oh, it's just beautiful. You really need to have this. It's, this is going to add value to your house. This is going to add value to your value to your lifestyle, to how you live. One
Mark D. Williams 12:06
of the things I love, and I also love the value conversation, but one of the things that, one of the reasons why I build the team here locally in Minnesota, the way I do when I built custom homes, is I want to be in the room when if the client has said, Hey, our budgets 4 million. And, you know, I use the helicopter pad as analogy, because no one's ever built one, and they'll be like, you know, if a Mr. Johnson wanted to add a helicopter pad, I would raise my hand and be like, we can do that. Sounds amazing, just making sure that we're all aligned on the pricing here. I know a lot of and I say, you know, obviously joking like that, a lot of builders are not in the rooms when they're working with architecture partners, which I think is a huge mistake. One of the things that I love about what you're talking about is, because you're all in house, you can give people instantaneous, at least feel feedback. We know sometimes that you do literally have to design something to then price it out, to really understand its cost. But you're, you know, you're doing 68 projects. It's not like you're wandering in the dark. And even good architects, they know pretty good. But when you are a GC and an architect and you're getting real time data all the time, I have to imagine that's a massive both a relief to your client, but a huge competitive advantage when you're sitting down and explaining your value proposition to your clients, because you've compressed time. And I would imagine at the price point of the homes that you're building, like all of us, the most important resource all of us have in our lives is time, and you are giving people back more of their time by using less of it to get a even better result,
Scott Jaffa 13:28
absolutely. And you know, to take that a step further, we bring our interior designer into one of the first meetings before we even do the preliminary budget, so that we can understand what expectations are, because it's all. I've always found it's better to exceed expectations than to not meet them. So we figure out what they're looking for, what their goals are, what they everything, and then the interior designer, architect, we all have input into the final budget that we present to the client. Where do we need money? Where do we have too much money? Do we need more in decorative fixtures or cabinetry? And we put it all together, and we present it to the client, and it's all broken out line item. And I'm sure it's no different than what you do when you're presenting to a client and when it's broken down into line items. And they can see what the labor cost and material cost is. And then we have, we can have a real conversation, where can we save money or and then we talk about, well, I think if we don't do this area of the house, we can save a lot of money, but if we want to do this, then this is where
Mark D. Williams 14:31
it's funny, one thing I haven't thought of, and right now I'm just as I'm literally interviewing with you. You have these beautiful homes that are on your Rolodex, on your screen behind you,
Scott Jaffa 14:40
Rolodex, just aged you.
Mark D. Williams 14:42
I know totally right. My kids are not going to know what a Rolodex is, right. I was in sales for one year. I sold copiers and, man, I knew how to use Rolodex. But anyway, my comment on that was what the images is. You know, a lot of times when I get to bid presentation, you've got your Excel, you know, your sworn spreadsheets, and you're really getting into pricing detail, and it's getting. It's nitty gritty, and it's a little bit like exposing the visa bill at the end of the month. You're like, Hey, honey, how did we spend X number of dollars? And it's like, but then when you look at it, like, there's usually not one big line item, it's just the fact that you have 200 really medium small ones, you're like, wow, that added up in a hurry. And like, what you're talking about, most of us at the higher end realm are inviting our clients in to see how, how it's being made because otherwise they don't understand the value. But the thing I think I've been missing on before, and again, this is where your images behind are helping me. And I think, as an architect, you likely do this having another screen adjacent to the main screen with numbers of the images, because the images I sell and I try to create value based on emotion, and when I see the images of like the lifestyle that they're trying to achieve. If we narrow it down to black and white, it gets pretty unsexy, and it gets just to be dollars, which we need to talk about. I'm not saying don't talk about it, but I'm saying, like, let's not lose sight of, like, the vision of the Mountain View, the skis, you know, little Johnny running out to the pool in the hot tub, or, like, that's the whole reason you're doing all of this. And if we get too focused on the numbers and we lose sight of the dream that you just built because I think a big mistake that I've made this certainly in my 22 year career, and hopefully I won't make it again. But like the idea is that you spend six months in design, you get to pricing, you know, you have to hit pause, you do the hard bidding, and you lose a little that, that that that synergistic mojo of design, and everyone's kind of in a Happy Camp of design land, and just reminding them, while you're going through the bidding process of of where they're going to go, because right now they're, they're in the kind of the hard miles when they're looking at pricing. What's your thoughts on that?
Scott Jaffa 16:28
100% accurate what I do if nobody needs a $10 million house? No, no. People don't need what I provide. People are coming to me because they want a lifestyle, they want an esthetic, they want a place for their whole family to gather, or a place to retire. They they want to be in the they want all of these other things. And that's what I love about what I do is it's not always based. I only have a million dollars to spend. That's all I'm going to spend. Please make it work. And I want 10,000 square feet that probably could be done, but it's not going to be attractive. And people come to me because they want a vision. They want it to be attractive, they want it to be comfortable. They want to be cozy. And it's so interesting. I know we're going to get into it in a minute, but the house that you went into and videoed when the clients came to me, I have several stories on the house, but they wanted something more transitional or traditional on that lot, I gave it to them. I said, Would you mind if I showed you a couple modern options? And they said, Yes. So I showed them a couple modern options, and their only comment was, we're going to go modern. Thank you. We just don't want it gray. We want it with warm tones. And I gave them exactly what they wanted, but they gave me the ability to show them what I can do and what I can excel at and what I thought the lot should hold, versus coming to me with a preset of ideas. Please make this work. I want it look exactly like this.
Mark D. Williams 17:57
I This
Mark D. Williams 18:03
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Scott Jaffa 20:08
and a lot of people come in with with magazine clippings, with pictures. We will sit down and go through each one of them, or I'll ask for notes to be added. If it's on a computer, what about this image? Do you like? Is it the color? Is it the way it makes you feel? Is it, do you want us to duplicate this Exactly? Or you just sort of like the way the light's coming in, or you like the windows here? So there's lots of questions that I go through and ask. Very rarely does a client come in with images and say, This is exactly what I want. It's more like, I like how this makes me feel. And those are the kind of questions that I think are important for me to ask when we are at the very onset of the project and going through the program. That's one of the few times I need to meet face to face with a client. Because how clients will husband? You know, couples will look at each other what they don't say, their mannerisms will tell me a lot more than actually what their words will say, of who's in charge, who's making the decisions, how they interact with each other, what really is important. And I think having that initial conversation and sort of going into the minutia of how they live, how they use the kitchen. You know, do you have staff? Is it you that does the cooking? You know? Do you just use your bedroom to sleep in? Or is it really a sanctuary? All these things are like, so important, and in coming up with a design not, we're not going to design something that's so exclusive that only one family could ever live in this house, that it wouldn't be, you know, translate to other families, but to design it based on how you live your life. If you read a lot of books, let's put bookcases in everywhere. Some people don't read books, so there's no reason to do that. Some people like, you know, it goes on and on and on, on how people interact.
Mark D. Williams 21:55
I want to dial back, you know, 30 years here. You're a sophisticated business owner now, and what you were just highlighting the huge advantages you have at keeping it all under one roof. Did you begin with the end in mind you had mentioned, you know, or you didn't mention it, but this, and just doing a little research, you know, you had worked on two projects, I think, out east for like, eight years each, before you started your company. What was kind of your background that led you to say, You know what, I want to keep this all in house, because I'm guessing you didn't start there.
Scott Jaffa 22:22
I didn't. And when we I started here, I didn't have an interior designer. That was we had clients come with their own, and clients can still come with their own. And I like working with other designers, it was having a designer that came in and covered up all of the beautiful woodwork we did in the house and put furniture that I thought was subpar to the architecture that really this house was absolutely magnificent. And when it was finished, I couldn't photograph it, and that made me very sad. So that's when I decided we're going to start picking out finishes and doing doing all of the interiors, or at least giving that option to clients. You know, when I moved here, I had been coming here skiing with my family since 1981 when deer valley opened, and it was a great place. I just loved it, and this is where I would always see my parents for holidays. So this really seemed like home, even though I did grow up in Florida, there was a parcel of land that was going to be developed in park meadows, townhouse project, and my dad was involved in it, and I asked him if I could be a part of it. And he said, Yes. And I How
Mark D. Williams 23:32
old were you at that time?
Scott Jaffa 23:33
I was 34 when I came out here. Yes, I think 34 maybe 30 Yeah.
Mark D. Williams 23:43
You know, one of, one of the things is you've, you know, I think you in architecture school. You were in Italy for a while, and you mentioned before just how much you love to travel. You know, New Zealand, Africa, Morocco. How has international travel influences your architecture, your viewpoint? How has it just helped you? And I framed this question with like, I love traveling. My kids are still pretty young, 10, nine and eight, and we're now just getting to the age where we're starting to think about more international stuff, because my wife and I both love to travel, but I just I feel that I'm so inspired. So I love it when I hear people that have a, you know, a strong desire to travel, and how it influences your work.
Scott Jaffa 24:20
I hadn't. I never understood what other people do when they travel, when they're not architects, because I really I can see details everywhere, and architecture and buildings, and I will just go down alleys, and it's just amazing what you can find anywhere. And there's so much amazing architecture out there, whether it's even the old paving patterns on roads or tile patterns or hotels or office buildings, it's it's just pretty incredible.
Mark D. Williams 24:52
Whenever I travel, my wife, who's a physician, finds it so annoying that all I want to do is look at old buildings and homes, and she's like, we're on vacation. Can. You just shut it down. But I don't know any builder or any architect or any designer who we're all the same. It's like, we cannot go to these wonderful places and not just be drawn in. Like, like I look at like, you know, you go to Italy and you see the stones in Florence or Venice, or you're just like, they did that all by hand. Like, that's crazy. And like, you know, and you know, I've got a stone mason who gets grumpy, if you know, it's, you know, whatever he's doing. But anyway, even there's, I have such a a wonder at seeing these beautiful architecture pieces and sort of observing them. And, you know, everyone gets inspired differently. And
Scott Jaffa 25:32
even some of the new modern architecture, I mean, I've gotten a list of places in New York City that, you know, I would just go there and just go these random places. You know, the the first time I walked in the Ford Foundation by the UN it was like unbelievable, like I had never seen anything quite like that. Ian, the middle of Manhattan, so you can find spectacular details anywhere, and it's unfortunate now with security, you can't just walk into buildings like I used to be able to do when I was an architecture student, because everything was unlocked, and I would just pretend like I own the place and belong there. But man, traveling, I think, is what make helps make me a better architect and a better builder.
Mark D. Williams 26:14
I agree. I think it opens up our mind to possibilities. And I think it's sometimes, I don't know, maybe you give me some advice on this. I think sometimes you you know when you read a book, and you get to the end of the book and you're like, I know the concepts of what of it, and maybe a week later, I could describe it in an overview, and like, three weeks later it I lose more and more of the details as the weeks go by, right? It doesn't mean I wasn't profoundly impacted by the book, or I loved it, but I this is just for me. I'm just for me. I'm just curious. And where I'm framing this question is, is like, should we feel guilty? Or should I feel guilty? Or Should anyone feel guilty? Like, when you read something but you can't retain all of it, or if you travel and you're like, let that moment be special. I think this is my, my, my thought on this is, I think we're impacted in ways that we're not. We don't really realize, like, just soak it up. Don't put this pressure that you have to remember. In every single thing you've ever, ever seen, but just know that it probably comes out organically in ways you can't know. How do you view that? Because I sometimes feel bad that I should remember more of the things I've seen or been subjected to. But I think the reality is, I think it just kind of comes out organically over time.
Scott Jaffa 27:19
I agree with you. I think our experiences make us who we are and who we are changes over time. And I truly believe we never stop learning. Like I don't remember what I learned in college, you know, I don't remember what I learned in my first job, but I know everything today is built upon all of those things. So, so I feel the same way. It's like, God, what was that detail I was looking at in that museum, that how they did that. And it's like, then I'm trying to find the picture and the date I was on the trip. And sometimes I can find it, but it's it's it is always there. And every new project is always based. I don't need to reiterate Moroccan architecture or Italian architecture, but I can take some of those details, or we did a house and I wanted the stone floor to feel like it was an old stone floor. This was a spec home. I didn't have the budget to do a real, reclaimed limestone floor. So what I did was I found a company that did different finishes on different colors of limestone, and I put them together in different sizes to recreate what an old floor would have would look like in a castle in Italy. So there are ways of doing this. Or, Wow, that's a great idea to do with a sconce. Or, you know, recess. Ian, Ian, there's so many details, but you're right. I don't think you need to remember all of them. I think they're there.
Mark D. Williams 28:36
One of the things, and we're just, you're actually the first episode that we're doing this, and people that have been following the show for a while now we're doing now. We're doing what we call the smile tour, going down the coast. Is one of our last interviews on the West Coast, and one of the books we're switching into is from we left Dan Martel's buy back your time, which is a little bit like every business owner trying to get back some of our time. But we're transitioning into the psychology of money, and I have a few questions more about how you think about money. And one thing that was really interesting in the book, and even if you haven't read it, it'll still be relatable, that our relationship with money is the first thing that forms. It is how our parents viewed money. And so that's actually been my first question is, how do you view and this is from a business entrepreneur stand ship. But honestly, you can go anywhere you want with the question. It's really like when you look like when you look at money and you look at the value of it, both in architecture, what you're creating for your clients, but even as you run a business, how do you view, you know, money, and how has it changed, kind of over your career? That big question?
Scott Jaffa 29:36
No, that is a great question, and it's a big question. So how I view money is is one part of the equation. What I need to understand is how my clients view money, and that is always very, very important, that I need to tailor who I am and how I present myself to who's sitting across the table from me. I don't change who I am. I don't change my esthetic. I don't change. The core, but being able to communicate and understand so I can meet their needs and expectations. I know when I talk to clients, we talk about one of the first question is, do we talk about what's more important, your budget or the esthetics? And that how they answer the question really tells me more about whether I want to move forward with this client or not, because I think money is very important and people should not waste it. It is very hard to make money. And everyone that I work with here has been very, very successful in their other businesses, and I'm very successful in mine, and because I wear so many different hats, I understand the value of money, and I don't want clients to waste money. I also, also think it's important to spend money where it needs to be spent, and budgets are a goal. They're not the it's not a constitution that can't be modified or changed, and it's a process. And having those conversations, going through this, there's always two answers to a problem, at least there's the clients answer what they want, and there's what I think it should be. And I show the clients what they want, and then I say, would you take a look at this and tell me what you think? Nine times out of 10 they will go with what I've shown them, because there's there's thought and reasoning behind how I get to any solution. I have never shown a project or a client or a design to anybody without being able to explain every detail all the way through as to why we did everything. Now, sometimes that's that's okay, but that doesn't meet their goals. So I have to go back and you
Mark D. Williams 31:39
know, it's funny, my first thought process is, like, the difference, and is just thinking about, like, the difference between, like, when I'm married and my wife says, Oh, hey, I spent 10,000 on whatever. And I like, wait a minute, tell me why. Like, you know, I really want to know, like, all the reasons. And then once she says all the reasons, I'm like, Okay, I've never thought about this before. I just it's the first thought that comes to mind. But like, when I spend 10,000 I don't think to tell reasons, because it's, it's my idea, and like, I have it. And like, I guess where I'm trying to go with this a little bit is, like in our when we can explain the value proposition, whatever it is. In this case, it's a marital spending thing for whatever what are the justification or reasons are? You know, your spouse has to go into but it's no different than a client. And I think we could all do communication is my most important asset. It's the thing that I value the most. I'm not saying I'm the best at it. I'm just I know how valuable it is. And like anytime I've had a breakdown with an employee, with a subcontractor, with whoever, an architect, a partner, it's always comes down to somehow, how we framed it and how communication broke down. That's why I view it to be so important. I think what you're talking about is it's really financial communication. It's really explaining the value. Because almost now there is a limit. There are some people that just literally, I don't have any more money, and no matter how much I love the idea and how great the value is, it doesn't matter. But that's fine, you and I can work around that. But we the sooner we can come to that conversation, the better. And I feel like early on in my career, I've been building for 22 years now, earlier, I used to hide behind money and like not talk about it because I thought they didn't want to talk about it. And now my first 15 minute phone call whether I'm even going to sit down to spend an hour of your time, I mean literally, the second question is, what kind of budget parameters and expectations do you have? And if they can't answer that immediately, that's already my first red flag. Because if we can't talk healthily about money, money is not a bad thing. It's just a thing. It's like the weather. It just is what it is like. Why are we making it so taboo and weird? Let's just talk about it. Because now I can do an amazing job at value. You know, whatever your values are, I can work around. And so I feel like you're kind of speaking that same language. And
Scott Jaffa 33:43
you know, the flip side to that is, you know, I had a client, and again, being as honest and open with your fine or money that you want to spend on the house is so important with with the architects you hire, truly, if I'm only given a small fraction of what they really want to spend, then it almost becomes like, the only term I can think of is like a Frankenstein house, is we keep adding on and making bigger, making bigger, instead of, let's just start with a bigger house with the bigger details to begin with, instead of just adding and adding and adding, because you get a better product. I think if we know all the information up front, it's not like you don't get a great product by piecemealing the information. It works better. It flows better. It's it's it just and it's less expensive.
Mark D. Williams 34:31
Well, and the opposite is true. You can't start from a big house and go to a small house without sacrificing things. So the thing is, is, let's just be accurate and honest with what we're talking about. What do you have any stories that illustrate that point of where it maybe went wrong, or a way that when clients do talk about their budget, do you ever sort of, is it you're reading the body language, or do you push back a little bit and say, you know, kind of test the waters a little
Scott Jaffa 34:55
bit. I did a house for a plastic surgeon, and he wanted to buy his own. Appliances. He said, I see no reason to pay you a markup on your appliance. On the appliances, we're spending a lot of money on these appliances, and it just doesn't make any sense whether it's $1,000 range or a $20,000 range. I said, Okay, I hear you. So let me ask you a question. I come to see you, right? You're my doctor. I come to see you. I want some work done. I hand you four bottles of filler or Botox. I say, Here I bought these across the street. Would you please use these on my face? I saved a lot of money doing it. And he looked at me, said, I understand exactly what you're saying. I said, thank you. And that was
Mark D. Williams 35:37
that is a we
Scott Jaffa 35:38
never had a conversation again. And if
Mark D. Williams 35:40
that is so good,
Mark D. Williams 35:41
and
Scott Jaffa 35:41
just trying to put things in their perspective. And clients always like to come back. You know, we price a house out and it's more money than they want to spend. They always
Mark D. Williams 35:50
want
Scott Jaffa 35:51
to come after what I'm charging. And I think what I'm charging is more than fair for the services we provide, because I think we give a lot of value, and we are with the client the entire time through the process. So the way you you can save money is we can start taking things away from the scope. Is how we can save money, and that will lower our fees as well. But if this is what you want, this is what it's going to cost.
Mark D. Williams 36:15
It's it's so funny. Don't you find that? Like, if you could go back in time and tell a younger Scotch off of this, I'm sure, unless you learned it quicker than I did, it took me a long I think that's where age and experience really help you own your own message. And it's kind of funny, you know how, like when you're hot, you're hot, and when you're cold, you're cold in terms of sales, but like when you are confident in your message, I think the hardest person to convince about your margin or whatever is the person in the mirror. But as soon as that person in the mirror, meaning you, and I believe what we do, we can be very captivating people, and it's like, but you have to stand on your ground and, like, sometimes I've had clients where they're pretty savvy business owners, and they'll test you, and if you move too much, you've lost the whole job. Because, like, Well, wait a minute, if you're going to move this much, like, how much is really in there? And my kind of joke is, like, show me a super wealthy, but I'm sure there's a few. But like, no one gets into architecture and building because the you know, you're gonna just be a billionaire. You do it because you love it, and it's a great lifestyle. And I'm not saying I don't love what I do I do, but like, let's be realistic here. Like, there are far other different ways to make money if that's your goal. Like, we do it because we probably love it. That would be my guess.
Scott Jaffa 37:21
I do this because I do love it. It's the only thing I've ever wanted to do since I was a little kid. So I've never veered off course on this. And I truly believe, and I tell my kids this, if you love what you do and you're good at it, the money will come. It just does. If you don't care, or you do a half assed job, because it's just a job and not a career. You know what? You're not going to you're not going to achieve what you want to achieve. You know, because I have been so fortunate, things have have just fallen into place, and I'm, yeah, Ian, I love what I do. I love waking up every day. I love coming to the office every project I do, because they're all different. They're all unique, and they all have some of the same threads that run through them. But every client, every site, it's like, it's a new day, and it's fantastic
Mark D. Williams 38:11
when you think about people value money differently, and we've all had different experiences. And I think this is hard for me sometimes, like how I value money or value things might be it's usually not. So I guess usually in the interview process, you tend to find that the people that gravitate towards you is like a magnet, like your people sort of gravitate towards you. So not, I'm not sure this question is going to work, because I think sometimes we self select our clients, see what we are, and they won't even work with us if it wasn't a good fit. My question is, is, if you value something a lot differently than your client, how do you we still have to do what our client wants? But how have you handled some of those, I guess, discussions, or how do you internally think about it, and maybe you don't say it out loud, like, you know, we're let's be honest, we're all doing first world homes here. We love to do it, and some of the stuff gets pretty out there. And, like, I had a conversation with a designer yesterday, and we were being real, and I use humor. That's my defense mechanism of just like, you know, because some people will be like, This is an emergency. This is, you know, and I'll just usually, that's one of my red triggers. For me personally, I'll be like, This is urgent. It's not an emergency. If it's an emergency, you should call 911, because that's what that is for. I'm a home builder. You are an architect. We can happily and I try to be real with people. It's a very clumsy question, but how do you When have you ever been morally opposite or not morally opposite, just your value systems are opposed to some of your clients wishes? And how do you cross that bridge? Because we're all going to face that sometimes, and not that everyone has to agree exactly how we think. That's not really the point of this, but mainly just, how do you rationalize some of the stuff that we do when when their viewpoint might be so different than how we view
Scott Jaffa 39:53
it? So I had worked with my dad for 30 plus years, and I still. Use him as a sounding board, and we would go into meetings. He said, Now, why are you doing this? This is like, just such a waste of money. It's like, you're right, dad, in our world, it is in the client's world, it is not so this is what they asked for. There's so much money, you know. He just goes on and I said, I hear you, and I'm not going to disagree with you, but our job is not to value engineer for the clients. If this is what they want and they're okay with the price, then we're all good, and we can figure out a way to detail it and make it work. You know, I did have a client. We put a very selected, a very expensive dining room chandelier, and he called me up and he said, Scott, do we really need this? I said, Yes, and I gave him the reasons why. He said, Okay, I just wanted to make sure we needed to spend this much money and the same house. You know, I was in Amsterdam, and I was walking through a furniture store when I was there, and there was a rug. And I went through my phone and I found a picture of the sunset from his deck that looked exactly like this rug. Took a picture of it, sent it to him. I said, Can I buy this for your dining room? He said, Yes. I mean, it's, it's, and I wasn't even there for furniture for him. It was, I was there for fun. I just happened to see this, and was like, this is perfect. So that's why I love what I do. Is like, because everything just sort of comes into play. Like, everywhere you are, there's always something that you can find to work. But again, going back to the money and the value, everyone sees money differently, and it's our job to understand how the client sees their money and how to spend their money in the best way possible. I mean, I spend everyone's money as if it were my own. I don't like to waste money, but I want to make sure that value is given for it, and sometimes spending more money to get a value is better than spending less money.
Mark D. Williams 41:45
If
Mark D. Williams 41:52
you're looking to level up your business in 2026 and beyond, the contractor coalition Summit is the place for you. If you've been a listener to the show, you know that this has been the single biggest factor in how I've leveled up over the last couple of years. It's had a huge, profound impact on my business, my personal life. It's what helped me launch the curious builder. In fact, our second event of the year is a little change, September 15 in Minneapolis. We are doing a one day event. So for the last four years, we've always done three day events, sometimes four day events, and we wanted to recognize that it's a significant investment in yourself, which is definitely worth every penny. I've talked many, many times about that, but for some people, it's just out of reach. So we wanted to do a one day Crash Course event. Obviously, we can't cover all that we can cover in a four day event, but this will be a major, major upgrade to whatever you are doing if you haven't been to one. So that'll be September 15 in Minneapolis, and then our last one of the season will be another three, four day event in Charlotte, North Carolina. All the details can be found at contractor coalition summit.com How do you treat money and education within your own firm? You know, I think I'm just thinking like this morning I was running with, we run with a group of guys, and one of them, he said, I'm very cheap, and he's made more money than anyone else I know, but he is. He's super cheap. And he made a comment about someone else we ran with. He says, I think so and so is frugal, but not cheap. And he's like, and then this other person, he goes, I've always appreciated how they're so generous. They probably, I mean that this person hasn't made nearly as much money as the other person, but they're perceived as more generous. And this I'm speaking more about how you think about money within probably on more of your personal finances or even running your company. How do you think about how you give raises to your people? Or how do you think about what you sort of invest in, whether it's your office or your people or yourself or time off? How do you sort of think about how money helps you buy that freedom? Or how do you think about money in terms of how it might actually be a trap?
Scott Jaffa 44:00
So that's a great question. I money is a means to an end. It gives you it gives me freedom. I don't need to be the richest guy. I don't need to be the most successful guy. I don't need to build the most houses. I want a great quality of life, and I Ian do numbers in my head. I know when I'm going shopping. Yeah, I probably can't buy the Ferrari for a new car, but I can buy this car, you know, I I sort of know what I can do. And people in my company, I'm only successful because of the people behind me, truly. I mean, it's my name on the door, but I don't do it all. I do it because I have an amazing team that cares, and I treat all of them fairly and and I believe they are all well compensated. Nobody will ever call me cheap. I love to spend money. It is i It makes me feel good. You know, whether I'm spending yours or mine, it doesn't really. Matter, it's like, I'm adding to the world and adding beauty, and that's what I really, really enjoy doing. I
Mark D. Williams 45:07
think that's a great answer. I think Yeah, mine would be similar if I'm to answer the question too, from the standpoint that, like, I love money's to an ends to a mean, right? Like, buying back your time, like, if you have enough money, like, it's not fun to be in a place of scarcity all the time and and just thinking, we and I think every business goes through ebbs and flows. I mean, you, you said you'd like to do six to eight projects. So, you know, if you're anything like me, it's like, Okay, I've got, you know, three to four of them are paying the bills. You know, the other ones on top of it are kind of where I know I'm making money. And you can kind of just, you can certainly look at the numbers, but you kind of after you've been in business for a while, you kind of just know where you're at, like a feeling like, a feeling like we're like, we're riding the wave, or is the wave riding us? Right? But like, I went through 2008 and so did you. And those lessons are not forgotten. I still think about that, which is sort of, I'm here's what's crazy. I'm thankful that I still have kind of those scars that we have the series on Thursdays called losers are winners. But I sort of want to change in which people just come on and tell their worst tell their worst story that's happened, but inevitably, every story that has started with like a failure is the seeds of success. And the reason I bring that up is I think these moments of scarcity, whether they happen in 2008 or you know how we navigated covid, which ended up being a boom, but at the time it happened, none of us knew it was going to be a boom. We thought there was about three months at least here in Minnesota. We're like, are we going out of business? Is anyone gonna happen? And then it just was like, Nope. It's a super turbo charger. And so as you look back on your career, how have you sort of navigated those highs and lows? Because you're here, which means you certainly have had
Mark D. Williams 46:36
them.
Scott Jaffa 46:37
So 2007 was the last spec I built, and I was fortunate enough that I was able to sell them before 2008 hit, so I had no inventory. I was also fortunate that we had started getting into very large remodels beforehand, so we actually went through 2008 unscathed. It was,
Mark D. Williams 47:05
were you lucky? Were you lucky or good?
Scott Jaffa 47:07
I think a little bit of both. I think talking with my dad and sort of reading the writing on the walls before 2008 happened, he was like, sell that. Sell our houses, whatever contract we get. Don't negotiate. Let's sell it and move on. Trust me, and sometimes I just have to trust like you said, Nothing beats experience or age. Like truly, all the education that that I had to become an architect, I graduated being a bonehead, like truly, you learn everything by trial and error and making mistakes and being on the site and sort of understanding the nuances. And, you know, school is great for teaching you how to think. It taught me how to think. It taught me how to see the world and understand and analyze, and I certainly appreciate that. But understanding my craft and learning my craft, that's really a hands on effort that I did. But, you know, I think doing these remodels, and we started getting more and more larger remodels, and because we had, you know, no debt, no, no inventory, we just, we did, okay, yeah, I it was good.
Mark D. Williams 48:16
Have you done? Have you have you done a spec? Cents or still? None.
Scott Jaffa 48:19
Still, none.
Mark D. Williams 48:20
Yeah,
Scott Jaffa 48:20
because the
Mark D. Williams 48:21
reason I
Scott Jaffa 48:22
so busy doing custom homes now,
Mark D. Williams 48:24
yeah, you know your market, I, you know, I've kind of been working through a number of builders in Utah over the last couple months. And it's interesting, Park City in particular, is such a it's so interesting interviewing these different firms from around the country. You know, you go to like Brad Levitt down in Scottsdale, or where you guys are in Park City. And like, you guys can finish a house, and it might be like a $20 million house. It might be worth 25 when you're done, you're like, what? That's crazy like in Minnesota, like no one's vacationing here when it's minus 20, right? So it's like, people come back for family, like, there's this beautiful home that was built. Don't know the exact number, but somewhere between 70 and 90 million. And the gentleman died before we moved into it. It's on sale right now for 50 million. And that's 50 cents on the dollar. It's not going to sell for that either. An incredible architecture, incredible execution. It's just we don't have that level of there's money here, but it's quieter, and it's in honestly, they're uncomfortable spending it. And so it's, you know, it's all the Germans and the Swedes and all of my ancestors, you know, they're notoriously a little tighter on that stuff and so, but, like, Minnesota, just doesn't have that market. And so I'm sort of enamored when I interview different places the country where, you know the market you have, how many of the people that you build for are from Utah versus are from out state and have this as either a vacation home or coming, you know, transplant,
Scott Jaffa 49:38
everyone is from out of state. I don't think
Mark D. Williams 49:41
everyone,
Scott Jaffa 49:42
every person, they might move here but and live here now, but I don't think I've ever done a home for a client that is from Utah.
Mark D. Williams 49:52
Oh, wow, that's crazy.
Scott Jaffa 49:54
And I think it goes to what you said Utah, I think is very similar to Minnesota, where everyone is very low key.
Mark D. Williams 50:00
Ian,
Scott Jaffa 50:00
it's all below the radar. I've found that quality or quantity over quality sometimes dictates in more areas of Utah, and I would rather build a jewel box, something very small and detailed and beautiful, than something that's just big and just big. But I understand the need for both, and there is a need for both. But you know, going to what you said as your example, the house in Minnesota that it cost 90 million to build, and he's not going to sell it for 50 I've have conversations with clients, and these are what we talk about as lifestyle choices, and they're very clear. Like, look, I don't mind if I lose a million or 2 million on this house if I sell it. This is what I want. You know, every person that I work with has been hugely successful in their industry. They've either sold their companies, or they have designed something, or come up with something that has just changed, you know, the lives of all of us, and they have the bank account to do this, to have make these lifestyle choices. Not all of us are fortunate enough to make those kind of choices. But what's interesting is, every single one of these homes that we're talking about, the clients have all made a lot more money than I ever have when they've sold it a lot. And you know, the one or 2 million that he thought he was going to be upside down. He's 20 to 30 million on the positive side.
Mark D. Williams 51:25
Have you ever used that? I mean, my dad used to. My dad built in the 70s and 80s and 90s, and he used that all the time. And I've used it too. How often does if a client does try to come at your GC? You know that they don't understand all the other stuff, but they'll look at the bottom number and they'd be like, Well, wait a minute, why are you charging X percent? And I liked your filler comment before about buying it cheaper at appliances. Appliances, I swear, like the number one. I think the appliance one, going back to that conversation, is that I think it's they're aware of it. Appliance companies do a really good job of marketing to the end consumer, and so they feel like they at least it's one of the few things. They feel like they understand what they're getting and they understand the brand of it. So they feel like we don't need you for this one thing. I'm definitely going to use your example for the next time that comes up, because it comes up about once every year and a half where a high end client will pay for that. But I'm going back to the point of the story, which is, how often do you bring up the fact that you know what you will make money when you sell this house or this is a good steward of your money? How often do you bring that up as sort of, to combat their inclination to sort of, you know, make you, you know, operate at a lower at a lower margin.
Scott Jaffa 52:28
I so my margin is my margin that doesn't, that doesn't change. And if it's not something that we're comfortable with at the beginning, then we just we, we part ways. I think what I charge is very fair. I make no qualms about it. I'm not the cheapest guy, and I don't believe I'm the most expensive guy, but I do know that I provide value for what I charge, and everyone's got to make money to stay in business. That's how I treat my subcontractors. Because it's just, if you're not making money, you're not doing a great job and your heart isn't in it, because they all, they all come together, and sometimes they're more important than other times. And I want the guys that work on my jobs to care, to be invested in them, to want to do the best they can, if, if a detail doesn't isn't working out that we've drawn in the office, we're going to go out there, and I'm going to sit there with the trim carpenter, and I'm gonna, how can we get this better? How can we get this to work better? Because it really is a team effort to what we do. I mean, this is not a gift from God for me. This
Mark D. Williams 53:30
is I
Scott Jaffa 53:30
work really hard at what I do, and my team works really hard, and the guys that work on the houses work really hard.
Mark D. Williams 53:36
I like, I like that line, I also like the light. You could say like, I am a gift from God, but what I'm creating for you, I'm not God, therefore it can't be a
Scott Jaffa 53:45
gift.
Mark D. Williams 53:46
It's like we're both gifts here. So let's give each other an exchange of fair value. Ian, 1,000% agree with you. I've had in my career where I've literally told my, my my subcontractors, that they need to raise their rates. Years ago, like 15 years ago, I had a long time frame race, actually my PM, now I grew up next to them, and they did all my homes. They built every single one of my homes that are amazing, and they're always grumbling about making payroll and all this. And I said, guys, I do get competitive bids and you are lower than the rest of them. I'm telling you, it does me no good. I mean, how often does that does that employer tell the people to raise their rates? And I would tell him, I said, Guys, you need to raise your rates, because you do know it does mean no good five years from now, if you're not in business. And guess what, I plan on building for another 20 years. So I would like you to be around for all of them building my homes. But I said, here's the deal, you can raise your rates, but you need to raise it for all the other builders too, because I wasn't the only builder they, they went with Right? Like, I'm not an idiot. Well, I mean, I'm kind of an idiot, but not that big of an idiot. And I'm like, You got to make sure that you fair value for everyone. And I said they will pay it because you do outstanding work you need to be and I think again, going back to these, I think as home builders and. As architects and just as entrepreneurs, we all need to understand how to make money better and faster and more efficiently and innovate, but we are worthy of it. And I feel like our industry specifically builders. I can't speak to architects, but builders in general, in my opinion, across the country, charge too little for the work they do. And I know it's a fact, because of how hard it is for them. You know they're always you're on this you're on this cycle, this treadmill, you can't get off of it, this gerbil wheel. And if you can't ever get off, you can't recharge, you can't buy back your time. And honestly, you're not doing anyone any good, not the client, not yourself. And as soon as we as an industry can better understand the value of our own work. Everyone benefits from it,
Scott Jaffa 55:43
right? I mean, if you're going with the cheapest guy, and you're looking at only dollars and cents, I'm not the guy for you, and I know that, and I'm very happy to have that conversation with a client, because this is a long relationship. What I do goes from three to five to sometimes six years, from the minute I meet the client to the minute we complete the job. So it's, it's important that we get along and we we have the same vision and the same view on how everything should be completed.
Mark D. Williams 56:13
As we close the the podcast, one things that we do is we allow every previous guest to ask a question and leave it for the next guest. So you actually know this person I would imagine, but at least by reputation. So Stephanie Daley, I interviewed her last week, and she left this question for the next guest, which is you, and you get to leave a question. She didn't know who I was interviewing, by the way, so this is just hers. If you could do one thing to help the next generation of entrepreneurs, builders, architects, designers, in their career, what would be the one thing that you would want to change about our industry to help them have a better entrepreneurship journey?
Scott Jaffa 56:51
Believe in yourself and believe in the value you bring to the table. 100% if you believe in yourself and you believe in what you're worth, everyone else
Mark D. Williams 57:01
will. How would you implement that? Or if you ran into someone who was 25 years old, you could say that to them, and I agree with everything you said. How would you help them understand what that means
Scott Jaffa 57:13
that you you have to look at the long range, and when you are cutting your costs, you're diminishing your value. I know you want to do the project. I know it's a great project, but at the end of the day, if you don't have money to pay your people, it's not a good project for anybody. What you're doing is you're giving yourself away, and you're giving your services away, and that's all you have to offer. Truly, my opinion and my my my thoughts and my ideas that that's what I sell, and it's very difficult to put a value on those. That's why I'm saying you have to believe in what you are providing. And if you believe it, everyone else will. And again, if you want to start talking about cost and price, let's start talking about how we can cut the program and cut down on the finishes to save money. But what I'm bringing the table, it's, it really is a non negotiable, and it's, you don't negotiate with your doctor before you go into surgery. You don't negotiate with your attorney before you go into the courtroom. Why would you negotiate with your architect for a place that you're going to spend so much time in and live in and understand, yeah,
Mark D. Williams 58:22
I like that. I like that last one. I'm gonna use that one for sure. You now, this is your chance. What would be a question you would like to leave the next guest on the podcast?
Speaker 1 58:33
What has made you the success that you are today?
Mark D. Williams 58:39
Thank you very much for your time. And yeah, it was a pleasure to meet you. I appreciate
Scott Jaffa 58:43
it. Hey, thank you,
Mark D. Williams 58:44
Mark. Thanks for tuning in the curious builder podcast. If you like this episode, do us a favor. Share it with three other business owners. The best way that we can spread what we're doing is by word of mouth, and with your help, we can continue to help other curious builders expand their business. Please share it with your friends, like and review online and thanks again for tuning in.
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