Episode 20 - Kim Senn of Senn and Sons
The Key to Effective Marketing: knowing when to rebrand and how to get into a creative space with Kim Senn
Kim Senn joins the show to discuss her journey starting working for creative agencies to owning her own ad firm. She shares her background and her process with clients, specifically how she gets to know a brand and what they stand for. Kim and Mark also chat about what gets them into a creative space, and how Inspiration doesn’t just come to you. It’s acting on an idea and trying it out. Kim helps her clients form their ideas into reality and tuning into this episode will help you do the same.
Listen to the full episode:
About Kim Senn
In Kim’s 20+ years of experience, she has worked with large clients like Ray-Ban, LensCrafters, Virgin Mobile, Caribou Coffee, NVIDIA, Disney Parks and Pictures, and Georgia-Pacific, as well as many small businesses and start-ups to bring their brands to life. At Senn & Sons, she and her team approach every project with a focus on getting clear on shared goals, dream outcomes, and smart strategies to get there. Clients say the Senn & Sons team is able to translate the chaos in their minds, into clear, cohesive concepts and materials that create exponential value for their businesses.
Resources
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0:00
On this episode, we interview Kim Sen from Sen and sons, and we just had an amazing time talking about branding and the effects of marketing kind of her history. She has been all around the world with different major ad agencies. And then as she basically started her own ad agency here in Minnesota, really focusing on more of a bowtique design firm, it was really enjoyable to hear her process, you know, she's worked for Ray Bans and for Disney, and you know, she's helped. Now all these local companies and her talent is just unparalleled. It's really incredible. So I hope you enjoy this episode of The Curious builder podcast. Welcome to the curious builder Podcast. I'm Mark Williams, your host, and today I'm joined with Kim Sen. From Sen. And sons. Welcome, Kim.
01:06
Thank you, this is so exciting to be on the pot.
01:09
I know you've had a very behind the scenes role in all of this, because obviously in the last six months, we've rebranded, we've talked about renaming our company, and you've helped me launch the curious builder. Podcast I'm very excited to have you on I know I
01:23
feel like I'm a part of the company. Now you you are like one of the
01:27
employees you are you are not an employee, I think you're actually the boss, probably because your style is way better than mine. So enough about me, I want to hear about Kimberly, son and son and sons. And just as a preface, my wife, pretty much 99 times out of 100. I'm just leaving the one case and because she might be wrong once in her life, he hasn't met yet. But every time she makes a recommendation 10 years ago, we actually branded with style architects, and they were amazing. And you know, not just men, but myself in particular was like, I love my brand. My brand is fine. I don't need a brand refresh. And she's like, No, you really do. And 10 years ago, I didn't. I was like, wow. So I've already been conditioned to like a listen to her when she gives me good recommendations. Thank you, honey. And then second is when she said, Hey, after 10 years, again, I liked my brand. But I think what really led me to seek you out was a recommendation. And we'll talk a little bit about what attracted me personally to your brand just as a because I love marketing, but really then dialing in and saying like, Hey, do I want to stay with my name? Or if I'm going to build this business and walk it into selling it someday? You know, it's kind of weird to sell a business with your name on it. But we'll talk about that maybe later in the podcast. But that's how we met. And so yeah, tell us a little bit about your background and kind of, you know, what has brought you up to be this brand. Titan?
02:43
Titan? I love it. I'm a mogul. Yes. So I started my career in creative agencies sort of all over the place. So my first job was actually in Minneapolis, and I moved to New York, worked at Fallon in New York, and then transferred to Fallon in London for a couple of years and worked there. And so while I was at fall in London, I was actually working more on the business side of things. So account management account strategy on Orange mobile, if you've ever traveled in Europe, you've probably heard of it in a couple of other European brands. But that agency was actually agency of the year, named campaign magazine for the tires that are rolled in a hole, maybe in Europe, okay. I don't know, campaign is a UK public. Okay. So I don't really know. But it was an agency of the year, which was a huge honor. And so I was there during that, that of that agency's life. And it was really exciting. And I feel like being surrounded by some of the best in the best in the business. There's just so many learning opportunities, whether it's the bosses that I had, the creatives that I worked with the clients that I had, that so many of whom I'm still in touch with just building those relationships. And then when we were in London, kind of got sick of the rain and the weather. And so it's
03:54
not just a stereotype, it's actually it really, it's an
03:57
amazing place. It's so much fun, but then moved to California and spent some time in San Francisco, which nobody warned us was actually like foggy and cold,
04:04
right like London. That's funny. My wife actually did her residency in San Fran. And so I spent a year going there every month, because it was I was in our dating courtship style. And I actually I'm not a big fan of cities, other than I love all European cities, basically, because they're old. But I think what I love about San Francisco is everything's on a hill. So I like to I like to view in that temperature. I mean, I'm from Minnesota, right? And I actually embrace the cold. So it's pretty much 55 to 70 year round in San Francisco. I'm like, This is my weather. Well,
04:32
you could be outside every single day no matter what, like it's not warm. It's not necessarily sunny every day, but it's definitely like you're outside every single day. And I think it's one of the most beautiful cities. It's amazing. So my husband and I were there for like seven years. It's where both of our kids were born, worked at an agency called cutwater. There which was sort of a it was a part of TBWA ChIAT day for a while and then broke off. So another kind of big agency brand, but was there for a couple years and then left to have children.
04:59
So Did you guys move back to Minnesota then?
05:01
Yes, right after our second son was born, okay, I moved back to Minneapolis. So that was 10 years ago now. Wow. Yeah. So, but that was sort of my agency life. So that was, you know, building big brands worked on Ray Ban and Vidya LensCrafters, brawny paper towels, Virgin Mobile, like, really big brands, so was able to learn a lot just from these huge companies and all very kind of authentic brands, like brands, you've heard of that have spent all this time building them. You worked on Disney to I read and Disney, yeah, Disney parks and pictures. So that was fun. So going down to Burbank, frequently for those meetings. And I feel like there's some exciting stuff that happens when you're working in Disney Pictures, you get advanced scripts, and like,
05:42
oh, of like a movie coming out? Because you have to Oh, I get it because you have to brand. I mean, it's whether it's the action figures or the Legos or it's all in concert together? Yeah.
05:50
So you get the advanced scripts. And then you work with some of the voiceover talent, because a lot of it's animated. But you get your script and your name is like printed on it. So you can't like if it gets lost or redistributed or if somebody makes a copy, like your name is on it. Like it's very, you feel sort of nervous, like I can lose the scripts a
06:07
little bit, don't they say like a playbook for like an NFL team, right? Like, this is your book. If you lose it like that's on you.
06:12
It's on you. Yeah. And they will just say for sure. So you've
06:15
worked so Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, like the agencies like everybody's personally and you're like, oh, my gosh, so anyway,
06:21
I would be like, because I didn't you know, the football is the President has all the nuclear codes. And it has like the it's like the one of the Secret Service agents, it carries it right next to the President. And then they have a handcuff, where it's handcuffed to the the briefcase so that, you know, you'd have to, there's a little more bit cut off there. But I'm like thinking like this folder anyways, where I'm thinking about this is like, I wouldn't ever want to lose this folder would get sued by Disney, because you're probably going to lose that battle. You don't like leave it on your desk to like, have just pulled it all the time. Yeah. Hopefully it's branded and looks good. I mean, it's just a script. Like, it's crazy. It's just like a stack. But can you have it like a nice leather embossed folder? I mean, didn't you?
06:53
I didn't. I just have a stack of papers. And I'm not that organized. So it's fine. Anyway, so yeah, that was a little a little
06:59
tangent. So before we dive into what you're doing now, I'm just very curious about the corporate setting, just being a small entrepreneur. And you obviously will talk about the differences between a big agency and a small agency and a little bit, but a lot of our of our listeners are small entrepreneurs as well. Or maybe there's someone out there who wants to start a business walk us through a little bit about this agency, like let's say, a client like Disney comes to you or Ray Ban, like, how big is your team? Like? How does this How much have you gleaned from that agency that you now have harnessed into your own, you know, boutique design firm and branding firm, walk us through kind of that process of it's the same, it's just the clients are different, or it's
07:35
similar? I would say that it's actually, I don't know, I feel like I'm taking a lot of learnings just because I learned how to solve problems at the agency, it was basically solving big brand problems, solving just executional problems, how to take a creative idea from being just an idea into making it happen through all the different layers. So how to protect those ideas, how to work things, kind of through the process, the various resourcing questions, basically like, how do we even get this done? I always say like, my superpower is resourcefulness. And it's a little bit like I saw it on your website. I was like, I love that. But it makes sense. Because it's a little bit like when you come up with an idea, and you have tons of ideas, I have tons of ideas. How do you make something like that happen. And so that's the stuff that I learned from the agency, as far as you know, the business now and send in sons, I definitely work with smaller clients. I mean, you know, sometimes I'll work with a bigger brand on a campaign. But really, I like to apply what I learned on those big brands, which is just really staying true to kind of your values, your mission, your vision, every size, business needs, all of those things really defined. I think we worked through this on the marquee Williams brand, where it was just like, what do you really care about? Who is your primary customer? Who do you want to work with? And then you build a brand that will attract those people and keep them there? And so I think it's all of those things, how to understand that what questions to ask, you know, sort of the process, those are all the things I learned in big agencies, like, I think knowing what questions to ask is really, really important in this process. And so
09:05
I think, something that I found very valuable in our process. And, you know, I tend to have a lot of energy and a lot of ideas, and I need somebody. And I think it's good to have those generation of ideas. But I need someone like you a partner that is going to help me pair those down, and basically isolate it to like what are the best. And even like when you go through your website Gallery, and you're like, Well, I'm proud of all the homes I've built, they're not quite the same as obviously children, but you're probably it's like if you had got 100 Children, it's not like you're proud of one more than the other. But like, you know, there are certain ones that you would celebrate in so like, you know, on your gallery, like dropping out some of the homes that you did 10 years that maybe no longer fit your brand. And again, I've kind of built my career around where our clients have taken us. And you know, our first home, let's say was $500,000. And you know, a couple homes we built last year were 4 million I mean, totally different, right. However, the clientele has really brought us there. I mean, our commitment to quality in some of those things have never really wavered. It's just that what the client is willing to pay. for and what the client wants now is different. And so I've always gravitated towards that. And so for me, and I don't know if all brands are this way, but I've essentially kind of organically gone to this different place. And sometimes it's fun to look backwards, even if it's already been 19 years, which is hard to believe, because in some ways, I feel like I'm starting over. You know, I feel like in the last two to four years, I feel like my clientele the homes I built, even the brand, like even now having an old brand, I look at my new brand. I'm like, Ooh, I feel like a new company. And it's very exciting. It's like buying a new car, getting a new house, the new brand is very invigorating, you find that that's the case with most people, when they go to rebranding, it kind of like is a shot of Expresso.
10:36
A lot of times, it's companies that like their branding needs to catch up with where they are. Yeah. So when you're coming to it, a lot of times I work with clients who are at that transition point, where it's like, my brand doesn't actually fit the clients I'm working with, or I've expanded, which is what mine was exactly where it feels like it's just disconnected somehow, where it's like, well, it worked for me up to this point. But there's either something new happening, or you're I feel like a lot of companies will have you know, a brand that's very localized, but they're going national, and they've got you know, I don't know, there was a company that I worked with that had Minnesota and its name, but it was working with national clients. And so they needed to rebrand cuz it was like, well, it's not just Minnesota companies. And so there's some point of inflection where I feel like people know that, like, this isn't quite jiving, I need something that feels like it matches. So it's like catching, catching up a little bit to your actual business.
11:25
One of the things I you know, I suspect a lot of people when they start their company, I mean, well, I could speak for myself, I did not think about branding. I didn't think about marketing, I certainly wouldn't have named my company, Mark D. Williams Custom Homes seems very unoriginal. And at that point for 20 years, we can talk, I guess now a little bit about, you know, that evolution, I'm sure a lot of business owners have this. And I would love to go back in time and sit down with a brand strategist. How many of the companies that you counsel, how many actually start from the place of brand, first, versus somebody like myself that just hey, I'm gonna go into business, I don't, I'm gonna go, you know, kind of fake it till I make it or just, I have the resources, and I got lot of energy. I'm just gonna go with the pros and cons to both, frankly, your expertise, which 5050 is what's the ratio? Do you think people actually lay out a brand path before they ever start the company?
12:13
Well, people I work with typically haven't started with brand, they start with their service or their actual expertise. And then they come to the brand later. And I think that's just the nature of what I do. People are like, I need a brand I know who to call. So if somebody already has a brand, or they started there, I'm not typically the first call. But yeah, so most of the people I work with, do what you did, I think unless you come from the marketing and branding role even know to ask that question or No, yeah, you, you know, you come into that when you learn that like, oh, this would be a little bit better or a little bit more, right? If it was better branded, or had better messaging,
12:47
which is unique, because obviously the podcast that we're on right now, the curious builder podcast, was we started this, you know, I was on a podcast in August. And we launched his podcast, basically in September. And then yeah, and then four months later, we started airing it. But I mean, you were there for the creative. So we've much is almost like a separate bit what is a separate business that essentially had a brand established off of marquee limbs, custom homes, but so seeing that evolve, spin off of that, how often do companies that you work with kind of spin off a side company that we have to match the branding and the voice? Yeah,
13:16
a lot. Actually, that's something that I'm working on with a number of clients right now where they kind of have their core brand. But then they have other ideas and other businesses or a program that needs to be branded or something. And so a lot of times it's figuring out, and I'd call this like a brand architecture, basically. So it's a little bit like how do you approach it, there's a lot of different ways it could be kind of separate, but sister brands like I think the curious builder, Mark de Williams, they share a color palette, they share a little bit of a vibe. And at the same time, they're different brands. And they are kind of different businesses. And I'm working with another woman who's a consultant who has that where she sort of consults with large companies like Ecolab and huge companies, it's very corporate, and she's got a consulting arm. But then she also has consulting for people going through career transitions that needed a little bit more personal touch. And so we kind of, we named it and we branded it, and it's familiar and it all fits in the same family. So there's, I don't know, there's a lot of clients that come to me with questions about that kind of stuff, too. Like, how do I even approach this? I have this idea. Is it an extension of my main brand? Is it a totally different brand? Like, do I need another Instagram handle? I feel like that's Yeah, question like, Is it another business?
14:27
Right? So yeah, that kind of played together. And I want to go down there. But one of the questions I wanted to ask you that actually don't know the answer. Where did son and Sons Where did you get that name from? Because we're just talking about naming and bending. And it got me back to it. Like, how did you derive your, your, your company name?
14:42
Well, a long list of ideas. My husband is actually a writer. And so we sat down together and I didn't like any of his ideas. This was 12 years ago, 11 years ago, I don't even know. But we went through this list. I mean, we went like cornfed collective was on there. And I was like, I don't really like that, like, I don't know, we had your husband's idea. I probably mine because it's terrible. But it was, you know, it's
15:07
thinking of Nebraska like a farmer like, oh optive selling corn cobs.
15:12
It was in California from the Midwest, it was like, Okay. And then it was like, Alright, fine. We're just going to use our name. So this is my married name, same as my married name. And we had one son, and I thought well send in son. Doesn't sound as good as send him sons. Yeah. So let's get involved. Yeah, like, just went with it. And so he was one when I started this business. And so we went with it. And then a couple years later, we had another son was like, perfect.
15:38
This is possibly if this now solidified, how are we
15:40
gonna explain this to a daughter? We have to rebrand. When we do so anyway, it just it fit and it stuck. And I've just sort of stuck with it. And it doesn't. I've been able to sort of modify my business and what I offer and what I do, because the name doesn't really say anything other than my name.
16:00
Yeah. How does? You'd mentioned like, even in the title of your website, title, you know, design and brand. What is the difference between design and brand? I think that's, I mean, I have some ideas, but I'd like to hear it from the professional.
16:12
No, it's a great question. I think brand to me, is kind of the total experience that you get when you work with a company it sort of, of course, it's how it looks, from a design standpoint, what kind of visuals you have, the type that you use, all of those things can create emotions, and feelings. And then brand is just going deeper. It's what you stand for, who you serve, sort of the mission behind things, and the overall expression. So the copy the messaging pillars, what you focus on, I think brand to me is sort of this idea of like the front door of a house where it's like, you come here like, oh, this place seems like it's for me, and you want to attract the right kind of people into it. And so brand is sort of the whole thing, it goes down to like, the tone of your emails that you send, and
16:57
yeah, like you hear that phrase a lot. That's on brand. That's on brand. Right? Right, you hear that phrase a
17:02
lot, right? Because it's sort of like, if you think of brand, like a person or a personality, it's like, would that brands say that? Right? Do they? I mean, do they have ownership over that? Like, can they claim that kind of stuff, you know, so you think of big brands like, Apple is always an interesting one. I think Trader Joe's is always weird and fun, too, because it's sort of quirky, it's a massive business, but it's got a really strong brand, like, you know what you're gonna get even down to like, the checkers being a little too chatty. It's like, you know, like, that's their brand is to have those conversations and make small talk with people who are going through the line, right? So it's, it's the whole, it's the whole experience, whereas design, I think, is the expression of that.
17:45
Interesting. What do you feel? I mean, you obviously are superpowers resourcefulness was interesting, you'd be a great general contractor, because I feel like, you know, not knowing the answer, but knowing where to get the answer, probably actually, in any business is probably a great superpower to have.
17:59
I mean, that's actually a good comparison. Because I feel like when I have a project, it's like, what are the resources that I need to make this come to life? So for instance, like we did some animations with your logo in the launch, and it's like, we have so many talented freelancers in the city that it's like, Okay, I'm going to call in my animator, I'm going to call on a web developer, because we have some custom stuff that we're going to do here. And it's like, Who do I need? When do I need them? What's the process? Actually,
18:23
it's funny you say that? Because I was actually trying to create an analogy, because I just loved speaking in analogies, I guess? I do. I do. I do. I do do. And but you know, it's very much like, even general contracting, right. So like, we have a, you know, our team has five employees. But really, we employ hundreds of trade partners. And, you know, most general contractors do, it'd be very rare to have all those under under one umbrella for your very what you just illustrated like, hey, you know, I need a glass guy. I need a plaster guy. You know, I need you know, this craftsmanship. I need to bring this talent in. So you have two employees. Is that you and Lauren? Or how does, how is your Yeah,
18:56
it's me and Lauren, and Lauren as a contractor as well, yeah. So she's come in recently to really help with the business and operations side of things and kind of managing projects and keeping keeping me on track. I feel like I sort of, I'm the person who's like, going to work on this and kind of dive deep into this. And she's like, okay, these are the priorities, these are the things that must get done. So she sort of, she's the heavy, she makes me stay on track. And so that's been awesome, because I think there's a challenge with what I was doing on my own, which is sort of like being the business person. But then also being the creative person where those feel very different. You kind of go into different brain spaces. When I'm in creative mode, I shut everything else off, and sort of dive deep for hours, which means I'm not responding to emails. I'm not thinking about timelines, I'm not getting
19:42
because you sort of have to that creative process needs that space. Right? Yeah, absolutely. How long did you operate where you were the creative end Business Director solely and wondered because Lauren just came on recently, right? Oh, 10 years, so 10 years? Yeah, I mean, that's pretty rare. Err, I mean, I have my sister in law is a very talented artist and I, in fact, yesterday I was just talking to you who drew Besian is I'm going to have him on the podcast. He's an artist. And he's been very successful artists, I call him an entrepreneur. I'm sure someone else has coined it. But it was fun to say. But we were just chatting, literally yesterday, he came up to me at the gym, and he saw my bright fluorescent pink shirt on brand or not, it's very catchy, very on neon, and matches my personality, I guess. And anyway, we're just talking about how hard it is to be an artist, but also to have a business because there's that stereotype that, that people that are great at art aren't good at business. And people that are good at business aren't good at art. And that service type does have some foundation to it. But it's interesting, walk me through a little bit of how you were able to compartmentalize your creativity, but then kind of hit time out and be like, I still have a business to run to because that's a little bit more black and white running in the lanes where, you know, color, you know, kind of the color aspect of creation, right? How did you navigate that for a decade?
20:51
Carefully, I feel like so it's interesting, because when sannan San started, it was very art focused, it was just art, I was doing painting, like I was painting original paintings for people's homes. And so I kind of abandoned this the entire agency experience, because I felt like I needed to get my hands dirty. I felt like I needed that creative outlet. So while I was working at agencies and the business side of things in strategy, I was taking life drawing classes after work. And so I was like carrying my huge like sketchbook and going and doing these drawing classes, and getting it out that way. And at some point after having kids, it was a little bit like, agency life was hard for, for me just from a commitment standpoint, it was like a lot of hours, a lot of last minute travel. And so having my first child was very much like a wake up call where it's a little bit like I need to get this creative energy out. And so when Hugo, my first son turned one is when I started sending sons and I just started painting. And I just started selling on Etsy. I mean, this business has taken a lot of germs, right, but it started there and then sort of grew into creating surface pattern designs, which is basically any kind of printer pattern that you see on products, whether it's planters, fabrics, wall coverings, tech cases, all of those things. And so I took that art practice, and started licensing my art to companies. So then art, so it's very, it started, it's very, very, very, the birth of it was very much art based. And then I actually just kind of started applying the skills that I need for my agency life and marketing and branding, to sort of
22:24
build this business. So you didn't have a master plan when you left the agency to create what
22:27
you are not I did not know, this was not part of the master plan. And so you didn't
22:30
do you didn't do a brand word search, like you did for me for yourself.
22:34
I didn't know, I just you know, and it's been like maybe now I should have a plan. But it very much I let it evolve organically. And I think when you're you know, growing a family at the same time you're growing a business, you sort of have to, like, lean in and lean out as, like sort of analogy. Yeah, I think somebody heard that I knew how to do branding. And it's like, Can you do it for me? And I was like, fine. And so now I have an agency, even though that wasn't necessarily where it started.
23:00
Now the seven sons that I know, how long have you been? Let's call it, you know, this jet plane of a brand is last couple years, like one two years. Okay, so
23:10
I actually and I moved the business out of the home almost two years ago now. So I feel like that was sort of the inflection point of saying like, Okay, this is going to be a thing, and I should be a little bit more intentional about it, think about what it is. But yeah, probably the last couple of years.
23:25
I find personally, I don't know if you can relate to this. But I find Well, a lot of people work from home. And obviously when we all start, you know, that's kind of everyone's origin story. As a business owner, you know, you want to keep your overhead low. But for myself, I really tried to divide work in business to the best of I can I mean, it does bleed in I think people often looking on, you know, an entrepreneurs life or a business owner, you know, I think people only choose to see a portion of it. But in those the other stereotype where people work too much, and then they can't get back to your point leaning and leaning out. And so I have found that it actually being married has helped me a ton just respecting my spouse and our family and kind of getting some points of view from her. And then I think that's really helped me even to find the business not only from another idea, or another person can be good ideas that knows you intimately, but also understanding like, your business actually thrives when you set boundaries, which is surprising, actually.
24:12
Yeah, absolutely. No, I totally agree. I think finding that balance and whether you call it balance or something else, I feel like everybody struggles with it.
24:20
It evolves. I think it's I think it's continual. Yes. I think it's like juggling. You have three balls in the air for right now. It's working. You know what, one second from now one of them might not work
24:29
well. And I do think like when we're talking about like, we launched the curious builder and the new brand at the same time, like kind of on the same why not? Why not do it all at once. But I do think there's a little bit of like, that was a busy work week. Yeah. Well, the next week that we were able to sort of back off a little bit and like reengage with family. So I do think I'm just depending on the projects
24:49
and flows, right? I mean, when you're right, I mean, obviously it takes I'd say we build up you know, high end home. Let's say it takes you know, I think people don't understand that a lot of times it takes let's say four to six months just in design could take a year, depending on how high in the home is. And then the build could take anywhere from a year to two years just to build it. And so you definitely get into this pattern of this rhythm. And there'll be times where it's very frenetic, and it's just all hands on deck. And then, you know, it'll be painting for two months, right? Like, okay, well, we can, you know, enjoy your vacation. We'll check back in a little bit. So, anyway, it's just interesting how business does have an ebb and flow and your, I like to time block. And maybe we can talk a little bit about, you know, kind of our schedules a little bit about how you manage this. I think you'd even mentioned before he came on, we were chatting just early mornings, how much we love the quiet. Do you tend to do your creative work early in the morning? Do you do your business stuff in the morning? How do you structure your day, basically, to handle some of these responsibilities? Or is it not necessarily a time of day, you just chunk out time,
25:47
I chunk out time, I sort of have to go with where my energy is, yeah, the mornings are really great, because they're quiet. So I feel like I can get a handle on my day, respond to emails, do kind of a lot of the admin stuff and just thinking through things, a lot of times, I'll do strategy writing in the mornings, just because that's when I'm freshest and the coffee is the strongest. So it's like, that's when I can do a lot of the thinking and planning. And then creative work sort of needs just open space. Like I don't, I can't have bumpers on my day. So if I have meetings throughout the day, I won't be able to do creative work. So if I need to do creative work, I just have to clear the decks,
26:20
we block off like a day, like two days, like a week, like, so you'll just like and then you'll just protect that time, like it's just this two days is not negotiable. This is free now, just because I'm a huge admirer of design. So and just of the creative process, I get a lot of my ideas like running or exercising, or frankly, the time that I time blocked to be away from work is where I generate all the ideas. Like I'll be, you know, I like to run and so I'll be doing a trail run and, you know, be an hour in and I'll be listened to a podcast and like I turn this thing off, because the ideas are just flowing. So half the time I'm calling my project manager, I'm sure I've called you running. And I'll just be like, you know, I'm sure there's like weird, do this person is heavily breathing just like, okay, got this great idea. And anyway, did you find that that that free space for you is is that very common for just the arts in general?
27:06
I think so. I mean, a lot of times, it's like, I, I feel like with creativity, there's sort of this myth of like, just inspiration hitting, and a lot of times it is that, like, you have to create space, and you have to just try things. So for my process, I'll sit down, and I know I have four hours to work on something. And I'll just start playing around with things. And most of it gets scrapped, and then I'll be mad at myself and think I'm terrible at this. I gotta start over and then I'll go for a walk and come back. And somehow all those things synthesize, yeah, that's like, Okay, now it's better. But yeah, I think I feel like creating space, whether it's going for a walk or getting out of your norm, is what allows those ideas to come in and things to sort of start to gel a little bit. I'm the same, I'm the same way. But a lot of times it's a little bit like, I do have to sit down and almost kind of force myself to do bad ideas a little
27:56
bit just to like, you just start somewhere like you just have to start. So pages do you start with like hand sketching like hand drawing? Do you start with like writing because one thing that was so what attracted me to your brand when I first saw it, and I think what attracted Melissa to my wife was just your color, like, and I assume it's intentional, but like it's, it's very bold, it's bright, there's reds, there's yellows, there's these grabby colors that are but they're all very, like the palette is just very, it's not erratic, it's not like a rainbow. And it's not like an explosion. It's just like, hello. It's very bright, and it's very color. And I was like, I love coloring. And I was just like, you know, having my past type fonts and everything B which I love blue, but it's like blue and blue and white or black. And like seeing all this like explosion of color and like, yes, but then when we work through the process, your writing skills, like when I talk to people about your skills, I I'm blown away at your writing ability. And when we did this and and we'll maybe we'll talk a little bit about this now about how you actually do a brand or walk us through your process like you sit down with me or whoever's listening to this podcast, they reach out to you and say, Well, I'd love I think people would love to know, understand, like how you do it. But just to complete this thought, like your writing is incredible, because I'm not a strong writer. And when I saw you kind of describe things that you know, that I was visualizing in words, I was just like, wow, she gets it.
29:13
Yeah, I think well, and I think people have different skills, like, I'm going to talk through things, but my accent the way I process things. And the way I think is actually through writing. So I studied journalism in college. And so I sort of really latch on to storytelling. And I love to just listen and capture and try to understand what people are saying that they're not saying out loud. And so it's a little bit like just hearing different things. So I love it. And thank you for that compliment. That's very nice, but it's true. I do. That's how I process things. And so I'll sound like I don't really know what I'm talking about. But if I write the same exact thing to be like, Oh, that makes total sense. That's funny. I
29:49
I'm not trying to ever know what I'm talking about. But I think the opposite is true. I think I'm much better at the ad lib like in general. I think the reason the podcast works for me better like if I was to write a script. I mean, I have questions here and I haven't looked at Because I can't go off a script. I'm way better at reacting and ad libbing. It's interesting that your creative process then is it the is it the fact that you're writing it? And you think internally like, how was it that that writing? You're able to interpret it that way? That's just a gift? I don't know. Okay. I think that's fair.
30:16
I think so in sometimes it comes really easily. And sometimes it's a little bit like, I'm not really sure how to communicate this. So I think sometimes it ebbs and flows. And I also, I think I balance that with like thinking in pictures, so I can picture things. And if I can picture it, then I can write it a little bit. So it sort of all connects.
30:32
Let's go just I think people would be really interested in hearing this. So let's say a company comes to you, which they will tomorrow, actually this morning, right? My carpet installer was very impressed with my logo, right? And then I was like, and you can see I'm a shameless salesman, and like caps, like, go for it. You know, and I love the fact that he was responding to branding in my email. And so I said, You've got to talk to Kim and Lauren, and you've got to get it. So we'll see where that goes. But so those listening, they walk us through this process. So you probably do what a 15 minute vetting call just to talk with them a little bit, walk us through you sit down with them walk us through your process, they want to do a brand refresh, let's say let's say they already have a brand, but it's been a while a while, yeah,
31:10
okay. So we start by having that discovery call that conversation that basically just allows us to get to know each other, it allows me to sort of hear where their pain points are the struggles that they're having with their current brand, or website, or whatever it is. And then they get to hear a little bit more about my approach and how I do things. And so it's just a sort of, like, Oh, this is gonna work like, is this gonna be fun? Because I really like to work with people who believe in the power of branding and creativity, I don't really want to have to sell what I do need to be. We're partners and collaborators in this process. So I want you to be fully engaged.
31:44
Do you feel like it's a connection or a relationship in the sense that like, oftentimes, when I'm building somebody's home, I often tell people, like, you know, this is a relationship, because you know, you kind of have, you know, everyone has to be like your person, as they like to say, but obviously, it helps when you connect with them, you can kind of see them, do you. I mean, how often do people actually meet with you? I can't imagine someone not like wanting to be like a either your friend or being like, wow, I just connect with you. How often do people like, this doesn't work for me?
32:10
Yeah, usually it comes down to sort of timing budget, I think, I don't know. Or they just feel like maybe they think they know everything. And they're not open to new ideas. I think there's, there's a lot of reasons. And sometimes sometimes it's purely logistical. Yeah. But other times, it really is like, they'll get through it. And they'll say, Well, I'm not really sure I need this. It's like, that's fine. You don't need it right now. Come back when you're ready. I want to work with people who are ready understood. And I also think I can tell if somebody's going to be really open and honest, I feel like this works best. If you could just tell me everything feel like
32:46
you actually lovely. I actually wondered about that somebody like myself in I don't have feelings. So you can say whatever you want here. But yeah, well, but like, you know, my point is, is like, I have a lot of ideas, right? Is that overwhelming? Because I communicate too many ideas, and they're all over the place, or the fact that you're putting I'm putting that much is like, okay, there's just a lot to work with. How do you interpret that just like this explosion of ideas? Is that normal? Is that not normal? Versus the person that you feel like you have to draw stuff out? Because they don't share anything? I tend to be probably an oversharer would be my guess. Yeah, I,
33:20
I mean, we could do both. I like to be able to draw things out and ask the right questions. And at the same time, like having lots of ideas is never a bad thing. It's just a matter of saying like, being able to really identify priorities and say, Well, what's our goal? Which one of those ideas which two of those, I
33:35
feel like it would be overwhelming, like, I know that I can overwhelm people? Yeah. Especially in this sense, because I was like, I like I like everything. Yeah, it's like hard. Yeah.
33:43
Well, and I think we had the conversation early on was like, okay, hold on to those things, right. Because first, we have to do this. And I think sometimes it's a little bit like, branding helps create a filter. Yeah. Like, what to do, what not to do, like, does this idea of it makes sense with the new brands. So it's a little bit like, hold that thought, hold that thought and like, and like I said, when I go into my, like, creative hidey hole, yeah, it's a little bit like,
34:06
everyone, right? Now, sort of artists that work
34:09
a little bit, yeah, put the sign up, I'm recovering the red light outside it just a little bit, like, new ideas aren't helpful at certain stages. And at the same time, knowing that you're gonna bring a lot of ideas is actually part of your brand, that I feel like you come with ideas and excitement and kind of an energy that feels like it has to be a part of your brand. Because if it's not, it's gonna feel inauthentic in some way. So, I mean, it just, it tells me something about you as a person. And also like, we then just got to know each other quickly, right? Because it was like, Okay, what about this? What about this? And so to me, it felt like, sometimes that process is quick and easy. And sometimes it's like, I got to draw some more things out. I don't think I'm getting the whole story. What else do I need to know?
34:53
Because it was interesting. I think it's analogous to actually again, a home design. Because like, you know, I'll have I'll meet with you deletes the messes, and she'll have, hey, here's my Pinterest board, I have 10,000 photos, and they're just so excited to share you and every builder and designer can relate to this. And it's, we laugh, because it's true. And it is helpful to a point. But it also was like, you have 10,000 photos, they are not all either not even you covered the gambit of everything. Like we need to pare this thing down to like 10 photos or 20 photos. So I imagine it's a little bit like those initial meetings. So back to the so someone sits down with you now, walk us through that process. So it's an hour meeting, I'm guessing, and they're just telling you about their business. Like what happens in that first meeting?
35:32
Yeah, so that first meeting is sort of just identifying what are their goals? What are their problems, I like to know, sort of what problems are trying to solve just because that helps me say like, well, here's what I think might help with that. And then I can put together a proposal for them that says, This is the conversation that we had this is the position your businesses in, this is where you want, and this is your path forward. Right? Yeah. And so then I'll put together the proposal and say this is about how long it's going to take. This is about how much it's going to cost. This is sort of my plan to get us there. How's that sound? Yeah, you know, in most people are like, Okay, well, yes or no on this, or, you know, that's not fast enough. Or, you know, there are some dates, I try to get as much information as possible upfront. So those proposals feel like, yes, that works. That's exactly what we talked about. And then we just get started. And then you know, I send over a list of questions. It's a little bit. I feel like clients always approach this differently. Like, I'll send this list of questions. And some people are like, they pick up the phone, and they're like, Okay, let's just talk this through. And other people will I do this, like, I'm 100 years old.
36:35
You know, they've done tests where people don't even know what this means. I'm sure like, for those not who listening, if you go to our YouTube channel, or the curious builder, podcast calm, you can see what I'm talking about. But basically just holding up your hand and thumb and pinky. The young kids don't even know what that means. Yeah, I guess. Yeah.
36:50
Yeah. Anyway, anyway. So some people just pick up the phone and call, some people will respond with a novel. Some people will literally not do anything until our meeting be like, Oh, I haven't even thought about that. So there's just a lot of different ways. But it's a way to start thinking about the business and start kind of, you know, using language thinking about the audience, I like to ask about, who are your main customers? Who are they now? Who do you want them to be? What services do you offer? Are they changing that? You know, we talk about core values a lot. It's a little bit like, what do you value? Let's talk about that. Let's see, like, where things lead to
37:28
what I loved about it, going through the process recently is, I felt like, because I love personality tests. I felt like you did that. I don't even know what you call it. It was like a Venn diagram of my personality. And I was this leads into my next question, how many companies like I am the brand, right, Mark Williams is the brand of art dealers Custom Homes, I want to ask you a question, a follow up question on that in a minute. But and so that part was like, just because I am the company, the brand of what I do. And everything kind of associates a lot with my personality. That was another one of the things that was like, Oh, that's very interesting. How many of the companies that you work with? Would the would the principal person or the CEO or the founder, be the brand themselves?
38:10
So far? Just a couple? Oh, interesting. Yeah, it's interesting, because it's usually consultants, because that kind of has to, but even some consultants that I'm working with now, are developing a brand, they're moving away from it being their person, because they want to bring in additional consultants and other help, and people who scale it, yeah, to scale it, but not that many. You know, service providers are usually the ones who have their name or their person connected to it. And a lot of times, I talk to people about that, because I feel like coming back to the conversation about balancing work and life, I think some people are ready to sort of say, That's my work that needs to be separate from who I am.
38:49
I mean, that's what led me to originally right. So I've often contemplated a name change. And with the idea that, you know, I've been building for 19 years, I'm 42, you know, maybe I'll make it God willing to 60 Hopefully, my kids don't want to be in a building because I have to be in it longer, but you just don't know what the future is gonna hold, right. And it's a very difficult business. But I do love it. It's kind of a it's just kind of an interesting business, and maybe all businesses like that. And so for me, it was like, I really wish I had named it something else, and not my own name. And what started was is like, my name is just so long, to get fit on marketing, and for it to be concise. And so you really helped me with that. But anyway, we went through probably a two month period where we went through names, and it's like nothing and we got it narrowed down to two. I don't remember offhand what they were. And I just remember, I think it was like rooted custom homes. And that was one of them. And anyway, doesn't matter. Because the idea was is at the end of the day, I just couldn't let it go the name and then also realizing that as a builder, like I must I have a tangible process or an asset, it's actually very difficult to sell a building company. So as I talk to other builders and other people, you know, in our metro area, they're like, No, you have a good last name. You know, my dad would build my grandpa bill like, you know, it's a known entity, you know, now's not the time to change your name. And so once that that was hard decision for me to make once we had clarity, it's like that filter of the brand, once I finally was able to make a decision to kind of go now that that question has been answered, like, I won't ask that again, I think and probably my career, I'm like it is it's been settled, it's been put, been put to rest. Yeah. And now it was kind of full steam ahead on what that brand is.
40:17
Well, and I think it was an important exercise to go through. Because if you're doubting it, for whatever reason, it is important to try to explore things and see like, does that make sense? Does it make sense to change? And it also sort of opens up the box of saying, like, well, what would what would make it worth it to do this change? I think you had a lot of brand equity in the mark de Williams name, because you were Builder of the Year and 2021. And that kind of stuff, sort of if you change names, if you change the look and feel somebody's gonna be like, well, I want to find that builder. It looks like they're out of business. Right. And I think that was something that we talked about, which is a little bit like there is brand equity, there's, you know, SEO, if you talk about search, like, people are going to search for stuff like that. And so you lose a lot of that, I think, you know, when you're making that choice, there should always be a reason for doing a name change. I feel like a rebrand or a refresh, just from a visual standpoint that can come at various moments in the business. But I think a renaming should have a really strong kind of reason for being I think, whether it's a huge PR crisis, where you just need to, like start fresh, like I said before, which if you're like expanding your service area, or changing locations where it makes sense. Like if something's very local in your name, and you need it to be more national or international, that's a reason to do it. Or you took
41:31
out a bunch of partners, and you went, you know, I mean, looking at a law firm, right? It's like, it's like five names. And it's like, no, I'm just curious, like, why lawyers don't come up with a better way. That just is just the big long name game,
41:42
right? Well, out agencies are the same way like felons a guy's name, you know, like, it's Pat's last name. So. But yeah, I think they're just really a reason. And I think we explored a lot of those reasons, we sort of said, let's give it a try. Let's see. Let's see what we come up with and see if something doesn't beat it, or make it feel like that feels so right. And I don't think we I think we just were like, actually, you know, what, like, the name is,
42:05
what again, was was kind of it was it was very validating? Totally, yeah, to kind of go through that process. So that was unique. How often, just so speaking, I was thinking of a question here, how often should a company consider rebranding? And I know, the answer is it depends. But just in general, like, what would what I guess, what have you seen as like an average duration? Because I don't think I think brand changes kind of creep up on people. I don't think they realize they need it until it's probably too late.
42:31
Right? This is this is we talked a little bit about this. I think, of course, there are no hard and fast rules. But there are points in the business where it feels like a change is needed. And I feel like I look at my mission, vision and values and reassess those every single year. So I kind of look at that and say like, what am I still aligned with those things. So every single year, you can kind of do a review of your brand, just its core kind of its core thing. But from a visual standpoint, from a refresh. You know, I'm finding that companies that that have been in business are solid, that have been around for like five or 10 years. Like that's kind of the range of people who are coming to me. Yeah. And so there's a little bit of something where it's just like, it feels dated, or it feels like it's not connecting with the audience that they're currently working with. And
43:17
if it's your if it's your origin business, right, if your five to 10 years thing, how much your business changes in the first five to 10 years?
43:23
A lot. It's crazy, right? Yeah. And so a lot of businesses at that point, because you're
43:27
finding your voice, right, you're figuring out what, who your clientele is. I mean, the first couple years, you don't know, I mean, you have an idea. I mean, somebody's your client. But ultimately, you don't really know maybe that maybe I don't have to feel bad about not having a brand from the get go. Because at the end the day when you're first starting out, I mean, I started I was 23, what did I know about brands? What did I know what I was even going to do? You almost need to figure out who you are and what you can do and what you what your superpower is, as you said, Before, you can be like, Okay, now let's create a brand around that. Right.
43:52
And I think there's, it's interesting, because some startups will build their brands first. And they'll like, have this product and they'll build the brand around it. And then they find that they have to pivot and change and do something different because of all the
44:03
work doesn't fit anymore. And then they put all this time and money into a brand that isn't really what they do. Right?
44:08
Exactly. Yeah. So most of the people I work with are established businesses, it's not usually new businesses, because doing branding this way, it's a bit of an investment. From a time standpoint, from a money standpoint, there's, you know, you kind of have to know your stuff. And so there's so many resources out there for new businesses that don't require this level of depth of thinking or work, you can really get started so easily with very little now. And I always say that's, that's where you should do start somewhere and then like, tease it out. And after a few years, then you're gonna know so much more about who you're working with, where your real value lies, I think you kind of go in you can go into business feeling like this is my value. And then a few years later, though, like, actually that's not quite it. This is more my speed. So
44:52
I find that checking in with your clients. Obviously it goes without saying but like asking them I mean, you get some raving clients that are amazing, right? I have this one client, and we're actually probably gonna bring him on the podcast because he's a business owner, we'll probably bring them on in season two. But he is an avid fan of the podcast. And he, I guess he's been pumping my he'll know who I'm talking about when he listens to this podcast, and I'm happy to have ya, Jay. But anyway, he, he's just an incredible mind. But he loves he's a huge fan of ours, right. And so he just wants to, you know, almost like do a past client podcast interview kind of thing. And we'll probably do some video stuff in the new year, in a year, I guess. 2423, let's focus on that. But it's anyway, the point of it is, is just you have these you have your fans who are really in some ways, they almost know that your brand better than you do, because you're in it every day, you just kind of lose, it's almost like your own personality, some can ask you about yourself. And you can say a little bit. But at the end of the day, having someone else talk about you is almost it's almost like a third point of view, I feel like brand management is a little bit like this, like you extracted the best parts of who our company is and who I am in a way that now we market to people that with now it's like we're gonna go out and market to the homes that we want to do our brand is, you know, uplifted, you know, basically just to go attract the clients that we want to work with.
46:11
Long when you're working in your business every single day. It's so much and it's so hard to do. And I think even as somebody who helps other people with their brands, it's really hard to do it for myself. Like when you asked about my process, I was like, why don't you talk about that. Tell everybody about how it works, because I think you have a different viewpoint on it. And I think when every project ends, I try to ask my clients like, Okay, what worked? What didn't what part of the process felt great, like, what did you not expect? I try to ask a lot of questions, because then the person I work with next will get a better experience, because I'll understand where the kinks are. But also, I'll lean into what really worked and what was really helpful and try to build that up. Because I think, you know, I think part of being a creative person. And I think you have this to where this is gonna be the worst thing, but I feel like creative people are naturally curious. And I think that's, we ask questions, and we look around and we sort of see things happening. And we understand, like, I think we can fix that. I think we can make that better. I think we can make this process better. I think this is a different idea. I mean, you talk about the little things when you're building the homes like the under the kitchen shelf lighting, Oh, yes. We're it's like, it's just little details that like we rethought it because that was sort of like, annoying. And so I feel like you're curious about like, how can we solve that? There's got to be a way
47:28
I think it comes. I mean, what do they say? Necessity is the mother of invention. Totally. And I also think that there's also curiosity, I don't know what that saying is what will create one curiosity and we'll get back to you on that when people but but you know, because ultimately that light one, so the light. So we what we do is our custom cabinets will create a light channel. So I brought this idea to my cabinet shop. And I said, Hey, here's what I'd like to do. I don't like outlets. I'd like a vendetta against outlets. I don't want a beautiful tile, I don't want to see them. So we take the outlets, and we put them in the bottom of the cabinet. So you get other people to help you figure out how to do this, because I certainly don't know. But that idea actually originated I was down in Naples, Florida visiting my grandpa, oh man 15 years ago. And I went through this five $6 million home whatever it was. And as I was looking at it, the real estate agent pointed out there was no outlets and there now it's it's pretty common in high end homes now in our in our market that that happens. But at the time, that was the origin for me. And so anyway, for me, I love travel. I don't we have young kids now. So it doesn't seem like a travel as they get older now we'll start traveling more and more. But I find I get so much stimulus and creativity out of travel. And it doesn't have to be work travel. I mean that wasn't born travel just happened to walk through a house. Well, you know, for whatever reason, disrupts
48:38
your like, if you're staying in the same like route every single day, you start to ignore things and you don't see things around you. It's like the same over and over taking yourself out of your everyday environment. Even if it's to go visit a grandpa or something like that. I think I'm the same way where it's travel is I mean, literally going on a walk in a different neighborhood is something that sparks different things because I feel like it makes you more aware
49:02
do you you get used to driving to and from work a similar path. I think as my restless nature, I tried to take a different way home if I'm not late, because then I'm trying to get home as quick as possible. But in general, I do like to take different routes. Now. There's only so many routes home but especially neighborhoods. I mean, you live in an area and how many times have you taken a wrong turn you get on a phone call and or Mapquest. You know there's an accident, and you're like I didn't even know this neighborhood existed. And I've lived in Minnesota my whole life. And this is like, Oh, this is kind of fun. And so I I mean that's just locally. And so I feel the one thing to kind of tangent on that is the thing that I probably enjoyed the most so far. One of the things that the most about the podcast interviews that we've had is that as in talking with other business owners, you mentioned, you know, the curiosity level, but I think it's like I'm getting expected versions of everyone else's life experience. So here you've been in Europe, you know, you're in London, you're in San Francisco. And so you get all this like melting pot of ideas, and then when you interact. The reason I'm bringing this up is I had this idea that I sort of wanted time block Thursday mornings to have coffee with a stranger And I want to say a stranger, maybe somebody you've met, and just chat about life, because I find it extremely powerful in the creativity department and kind of just like, you don't know what it was gonna lead.
50:09
Yeah, I do that. So I have flexible Fridays. And so every Friday, you're better branding
50:13
a name that by the way, I do like things that rhyme, or like, you know, has great.
50:18
You can sit flexible, okay. But every morning I try to like whether it's going for a coffee and a walk with somebody or just like giving somebody a call that I haven't talked to, in a long time reconnecting with former co workers
50:31
out of curiosity, do you actually put that in your calendar as like a reminder to do it at a certain time or certain time during the day?
50:37
I just, I just keep it totally blocked off. So I tried to schedule things. So
50:41
but I mean, like what, like, just get very specific here, like on your on your calendar block or invite to yourself? It doesn't say
50:49
what it? Well, it depends what I have planned for that day, right? So I like to schedule in advance and then at like, 930 to 1030 Coffee with this person, okay,
50:57
or walk with this person. What I mean is that Friday booked out now for the rest of the year, like you have a time slot, I
51:01
just keep it open. So I never scheduled anything. So it's literally it's blocked as far as like, do not schedule a meeting unless it's okay. Something like that.
51:09
Understood. Yeah. And I mean, I the reason I'm getting so specific on this, as I have a few things like that, like, I'll have like once a month on a Friday, I'll be like day off with family. And it just allows me not to schedule anything during that day. Or I'll have like, you know, whatever time block. I've actually recently did this because I went to a couple these coalition summits, which had been incredibly inspiring for me professionally. And I guess personally, too, but you go to these conferences, your three days, you're learning a ton of information. I had like 35 pages of notes, it's been eight months ago, I haven't looked at that notebook once sense, because we're so busy. Now I know that I've done a lot of it because it's been rattling around my brain. The podcast was from that a number of other things. But I now because my schedule is so busy, that I've actually started time blocking two hour segments out a couple of months from now that just say think on business. So that it's literally plan to stop, have time in your schedule, go and think about the business. Here's the problem. Anytime someone something comes up with like, there's a meeting, it's like, that thing gets cancelled. And so I'm trying and there are I'm somewhat successful with it. But I think, yeah, I think it'd be interesting to ask.
52:13
And a lot of times, it's like, well, that's the only time the client can have this crazy presentation. And, and then it goes away. But as long as it's like, I don't know, the 8020 rule where it's like, 80% of the time that works like 20% of the time, it's gotta get changed. And I think like with any habit, really, it's like, most of the time we can make it work, but sometimes you're gonna wake up and be like, I just can't do it today. Yeah. So I don't know, I feel like being intentional about that kind of stuff is really important, where it's like, I need to step away from the day to day and just think about something else, or get a new perspective. Yeah,
52:44
yeah. Or just shut it down. I mean, I mean, I think it's important to your kid. Yeah. Creating boundaries. Yeah, I think too. I this was something I think I got doing this maybe three years ago. And it was I turned off all notifications on my phone, except for my phone. Like when it rings, you actually can't get ahold I got rid of my phone, that the point is, is like all the dinging the email alerts. And it's just too much. It's just crazy. And now being a parent and thinking about what I have to do from a media standpoint with our children, and how to navigate that it's sort of overwhelming. And yet, I'm as guilty as anybody else. I mean, obviously, a big part of our public brand is managing our Instagram, LinkedIn. I mean, there's, there's, I mean, it's nonstop. And so sometimes I feel guilty, because I try to get on I post, I try to get off. But yeah, you still want to be a good, a good steward. But I want to be a good fan of other people. And I am I mean, you have your 10 or 15 people that you're super fans with, they comment on your stuff, you comment on their stuff, and it's called this back and forth, that I think is very healthy and very good. But when you can spend your entire day doing that completely,
53:45
and you find like once you're there, time goes away. And all of a sudden, you're like, I just spent 40 minutes scrolling and commenting and liking and it's like, you could time block that too.
53:55
I mean, that's actually probably good. I used to do it early in the morning. But now that's my most productive time. And so, but again, like anything, is I'm constantly struggling with how to time block and where totally. And so
54:05
I also think it's, I feel like sometimes I'm like, Well, I feel like doing that now, but it's not my time block. So
54:11
I don't know, who is you're maybe just a few questions as we wrap up here. Who is your ideal client? Like what who is a perfect fit for sentence sounds? Well,
54:19
I think it's definitely a person who's got an established business and really understands what they do and who they serve and who they want to serve. I think companies that are looking to kind of go to the next level are great clients for us, because we can help them think through that and how to do that. People who are ready for a rebrand ready to sort of spend the time thinking about it and really examining kind of their business plans are great clients. I think, you know, when we work with larger clients, it's usually established brands that don't really need a rebrand but maybe need a refresh of some sort or campaign that sort of tells a different story. So yeah, I love
54:58
this. I love the story aspect that readily read Isn't it? It's with me, because for myself, I find that I can even just from a memory standpoint, and obviously these are world famous quotes, like, just do it. I mean, Nike has got an incredible story, right? And but that's actually very interesting to me that the story that's associated with that. And I think, you know, as a small company, you think, Well, I can't be like Nike, I can't do that. Yes, you can. I mean, you can have a story, you can have a brand that's just as powerful. It just might be a micro target, or it doesn't matter it just if you don't know who your target audience is going to be. And so anyway, find that refreshing completely people that want to find you Where can they what are your social handles, so socials
55:32
at Sen and Sons everywhere Sen. N, and sons now that we have to So okay, and then sent in sons.com.
55:40
Okay. Well, and what's new and exciting for anything kind of unusual coming up for this year? Or what's kind of the we're at the beginning of the year as we're recording this 23 goals here? Well,
55:50
I do have goals. So I have a lot of travel goals this year. Last year, we took our kids to France for a few weeks. And that trip was amazing. And I feel like it was sort of that were reinvigorated. Where do you go? We went to oh, we went over we went to Paris, kind of a smaller town on the east called Denuvo. We've trained into nonSI and then we went south we drove through Switzerland ended up in onsie which is beautiful lake in the mountains on T and Avenue.
56:18
Okay, I was an avenue and we use my French accent. Yeah, that's pretty pretty. We we very good. We'll do a travel podcast over this because I can't wait actually this summer. The next two years we have quite a few travel plans and now kids are getting older but we won't talk about that on the careers builder podcast today. Anyone that wants to listen to more can go to curious builder podcast.com. We can also check out the show notes and the website we'll have all of the seven sons social handles is anywhere you want to find her and thanks again for coming on. And we'll see probably a year from now we'll have to have it on again because it never gets old talking with you that one fast. Thanks. All right, thanks. Thanks for listening to the curious builder podcast if you like what you listen to please give us a five star rating and write us a review. It really means a lot. It's a great way for us to just understand what you liked about the podcast and what we can keep doing so like and review and please share with your friends and family. Find out more at curious builder podcast.com
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