Episode 159 - Nathan Marsala on the Big Lie Behind “Luxury” Home Building
#159 | Nathan Marsala | The Bison Group | The Big Lie Behind “Luxury” Home Building
Nathan Marsala brings the heat in this episode with a refreshing take on craftsmanship, business systems, family priorities, and why not everything labeled “luxury” actually is. The conversation moves from pre-construction and project leadership to wellness, journaling, and cutting back the noise so the important stuff can get louder. It’s equal parts builder talk, life audit, and a reminder that sometimes the smartest move is deleting a few things and grabbing a better pen.
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About Nathan Marsala
Nathan Marsala is the Founder of The Bison Group, a construction management and general contracting firm specializing in custom residential and Class A commercial projects across Salt Lake City and Northern Utah. Raised on job sites as the son of a builder, Nathan learned construction from the ground up—literally—starting in finish carpentry before moving into large-scale commercial construction, owner’s representation, and ultimately launching his own firm in 2020. His career spans residential craftsmanship, billion-dollar commercial portfolios, and multi-state real estate development, giving him a rare perspective on both design-driven building and disciplined execution.
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Mark D. Williams 00:00
It's time to talk about contractor coalition summit at the beginning of May. We are going to be in Denver, Colorado for our first contractor coalition meetup. We're going to do a standalone event in the middle of September in Minneapolis. It's a one day reduced fee. Tickets are available now if we wanted to create an event that was just a one day crash course, you can find all those details at contractor coalition summit.com. We also in November, have our three day tail end of the year, which is going to be in Charlotte. So if you're interested in any of those events, please head to contractor coalition Summit. Calm. DM me for any information or email me Mark at MD Williams, homes.com, and thanks for tuning in. You.
Nathan Marsala 00:43
At the bison group. We want people to know, yeah, the details do matter to us. We don't build luxury homes. I think it's an overused term. Everything is luxury today, right? The the luxury apartments, the luxury townhomes by the production builder that I'm sorry, they're anything but close to luxury. And so I actually ran from the word I changed our signage today. On
Mark D. Williams 01:06
the curious builder podcast, we had Nathan, Marsal Ian from the bison group. Nathan, I have known each other for coming up on four years, and it was good to see him. I haven't seen him in probably three, four years, and I immediately start off the episode with just Nathan. Looks like he's doing really well. And I think one of the fun things about having a podcast with people that you've gotten to know over the years is you're able to like family or friends. You're really able to quickly see how their business is doing, how their personal life is doing. And so we start both the beginning of the episode and the end of the episode. We really talk about the things that have led to Nathan's growth as a person as a business owner and as a family man. Without further ado, here is Nathan Marsala. Welcome to cures builder Podcast. I'm Mark Williams. Your host today, I've got a very special guest. He was there from the very beginning, Nashville contractor coalition baby, before the cures builder was even born, I was sitting in the front row, raising my hands. Nathan was like, Who is this guy? And we hit it off ever then or ever since then. Nathan Marsala from the bison building group out of Salt Lake City.
02:06
How are you, buddy? I'm good. How are you
Mark D. Williams 02:09
I'm great. Did we haven't we used to talk like once a week, then it was like once a month. And now I feel like since I had to drop out of the builder 20 and our little once a bi weekly meeting, I feel like you and I haven't chatted in like months. This is the longest you and I haven't talked that I can recall.
02:24
I think you're absolutely right. I mean,
Mark D. Williams 02:26
Wait, are we? Are we wait? Are we breaking
02:28
up? Oh, you just got too popular
Mark D. Williams 02:31
for me. Oh, sure. Sure, it is long overdue. We've actually been talking about having you on forever, talking about watches and pens and all kinds of stuff. But let's start with a quick catch up. You look great, dude. I like the haircut. How's life? How are you how are you feeling?
Nathan Marsala 02:46
Life's good. I'm feeling pretty good. Yeah. I mean, on a personal level, we've had a lot of changes in the last six, seven months. Things are going to be different. Different is good. They're all changes where we are putting proper priorities up front, versus growth and business and dollar priorities, which is not complete
Mark D. Williams 03:11
the two at times. Does that mean family first? Is that what we're talking about here, Maisie and the fam, or what are we talking about? Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean,
Nathan Marsala 03:16
it's family first. It's also health first, right? Everything. I mean,
Mark D. Williams 03:20
honestly, you look really healthy. I mean, honestly, I mean, I've known you for a long time. Sure, the podcast is like, what's happening right now, but I've known you for a long time. You know how when you know your people, your brothers, your sisters, people you spend a lot of time with, like, I can take one look at you and you like, you look like you're doing really well.
Nathan Marsala 03:35
Well, thank you. You know that's that. That means a lot. Because there was a period of time where I wasn't looking so hot. I was definitely run down dramatically, which, you know, part of what we're talking about today kind of plays into that a little bit. But yeah, business can be overwhelming, and life and work can, if we're not careful, take over. And it can have detrimental effects to relationships. It can have detrimental effects to our physical and mental health. And just to clarify, Mark, everything's good on the relationship front, it's the health front, and it's making sure that all of that is in proper order. It's amazing what we're willing to sacrifice at times, for projects, for clients, for growing a business or a company, or chasing the next dollar. And, yeah, we just kind of got to a point. We said, hey, you know what? This is not worth it. Our daughter is a teenager now, and it's the middle school, high school years. We know what we are on the tail end of the bulk of our time with her, so you made me change just to make sure we're there for her.
Mark D. Williams 04:40
I mean, yeah, you have you gotten back into nujutsu or Jiu Jitsu, I should say,
Nathan Marsala 04:44
because you were, no, I have not. I haven't rolled in a year, little over a year now, I spent most of 2025, trying to recover from some injuries to my ribs and my back. And I think we kind of got to a point where. Where as I was starting to test the waters, just realized, you know, this might be the sport I have to walk away from, either for a greater period of time, or just in general, this isn't the first time I my ribs and back have been royally messed up from jujitsu. My previous errors, where I'd come back to the mats a little too quickly. Ian wouldn't give a proper time.
Mark D. Williams 05:23
You know, you know, I love talking about health, so I guess we'll start there. And wellness is such a huge part of you know, I think wellness means different things to different people. So maybe I'll let that be the first question. What does wellness mean to you? Because I think you mentioned health, and I think there's physical health, there's mental health, there's, I think anytime you have a sickness or something that's taken away that you take for granted, it brings into real sharp clarity how much we take for granted. So what does wellness mean to you?
Nathan Marsala 05:51
That is a very good question. Wellness means being able to, number one, do the things that you want to do. And then number two, wanting to do those things right, you have this interplay between mental and physical health. And when our our mental health is suffering, oftentimes the things that used to captivate us motivate us, interest us, provide a sense of joy, relief, repose, they start not drawing us in as
Mark D. Williams 06:24
much, right? I mean, that's that's really insightful, like basically the hobbies or the passions or the things that we love to do, if all of a sudden we find ourselves falling out of love with them, basically, check the premise, because something else is likely up exactly.
Nathan Marsala 06:39
So, yeah, there's the physical aspect, you know, obviously you want to be a physical, healthy specimen, mentally. You want to be properly regulated, in that sense, where you you want to spend time with people, you want to do the things that you enjoy doing, the hobbies, the sports, the whether it's reading a book or whatever. And then there's also a spiritual component, and that's to each their own on how they want to define that. But there is a sense of awe and wonder that I found to be very beneficial in life, as far as kind of just keeping things grounded. I know touch grass is the the word that the young folks
Mark D. Williams 07:16
use these days, like grounding. Touch grass. Yeah, touch grass. So there was this
Nathan Marsala 07:21
little thing that we kind of came up with. Kind of came up with, chop wood, carry water and touch grass. Those are the, those are the kind of the things that get you through. But yeah, on the on the physical aspect, there's this one's really coming to sharp focus. Over the last year for us, I've had my physical health hasn't been terribly bad. It's suffered because of stress and lack of sleep and all of those fun things and just kind of getting worn down and burned out in many ways, which created other issues and other wellness items for me to work on, more on a mental and spiritual side, a little bit on the physical. But the physical really hit my wife and my daughter a heck of a lot harder than it did me. And it does, it puts what it means to be healthy and sharp contrast. And you know, because of it, we've made some fairly large changes. My wife walked away this quarter from a lifelong career in in corporate tech to it. This has to do with that time with our daughter. Has to do with about being healthy. It was taking too big of a toll, both physically and mentally and so, yeah, that was a big decision for the family. Part of it was, how
Mark D. Williams 08:36
does she feel now? How
Nathan Marsala 08:40
does she feel now? Much better. Yeah, much, much, much better. I mean, it got to the point where we were trying to figure out what was going on physically, what the source of a lot of these symptoms? And all three doctors came to a consensus, this is due to your work. This is due to the stress and the things put on your shoulders in your career. And the best way to obviously, reduce and eliminate those is change careers.
Mark D. Williams 09:07
You know, what's interesting about that? I think our industry construction has a I think we would pride ourselves on the reputation that we're tough mentally, that we can endure a lot. I think the Pro and those are attribute. Those are wonderful attributes. Ian to ultra running, because I like to do that. Like, I know. Like, you know, I don't know if you've read that book to your kids when Maisie was small, but, you know, going on a bear hunt, did you ever read that with your kids? Like, you can't go around it, can't go over it. Got to go through it. And I feel like the construction world is really you're very tough minded, oftentimes stubborn, but sometimes the ying to the Yang. Like, stubbornness, when harnessed correctly, is a great attribute. It's steadfastness, right too, yes. And so, like, I think all of us have a really hard time actually knowing when to walk away. Like, like, how much physical stress, pain and look, it's only in hindsight you can. Look back, you're like, that was really dumb. Like, you know, like, you can endure a great amount of physical pain and mental pain. It doesn't mean you should. How have you sort of, now, knowing that this decision that your wife made, and maybe gaining insight, like, what would your comment be to that? Like, how do you know when it is? Because I think we all this is my basis. Like, I think sometimes when we think of like laying the hammer down, we think it's quitting. We and quitting, oh man, we wouldn't want to be a quitter. Like, you know, I mean, regardless of your upbringing, I'm guessing that parent or a grandparent or somewhere along the lines, taught you that quitting is losing and losing is bad. How do you know when quitting is actually the right thing to do?
Nathan Marsala 10:40
I think in our case, it was blunt force trauma. It was ending up in the emergency room a couple times. That definitely becomes the wake up call. And it probably should never get to that point. In fact, we could look back, you know, we do our kind of our family year end reviews, and we knew, we knew February of 2025, that she needed to exit. We didn't press forward, right? Because we you don't quit. It's that's where we added, there's that old saying that I mentioned a few moments ago, chop wood, carry water. So we kind of added touch grass at the end of that, chop wood and carry water, yeah, and you can forget that you need to touch grass and do these other things, yeah. The irony of that is, knowing when to and quit is probably the wrong word, but to step back, I agree. I think we make a change, right? Yeah, pivoting. Pivoting is not quitting. You know, I look at our company and our kind of what we've been doing, and there was a period years ago we wanted to be fast, quick, big, make lots of money. That's part of why you're in business, right? You want the autonomy, you want, the money you you want all these things. You have a vision of it can be done differently, better, etc. And it kind of got to a point where and I I'm not there, there like I still wrestle with, some days I want to keep growing and be bigger. Other days, I want to be completely solo, by myself, owner, operator, I think, and not deal with all the other stuff. I'll struggle
Mark D. Williams 12:23
with that, because your size, your size now is, what, four, five? How big are you in terms we've
Nathan Marsala 12:28
actually worked down to three, down to three. We've gone backwards intentionally until I figure out where I want to go from here. Yeah, we'll probably settle at five. Yep, maybe. And then I think we're there. I mean, I know we're talking about buy back our time in Dan Martel's kind of thoughts. And there's ways to be lean and efficient. We've always done more with less, like we've always out operated our competition with fewer bodies.
Mark D. Williams 12:57
I think project value. I mean, a big part of that, honestly, a big part of that, I think, is you specifically. I've often, you know, I think, I think all owners can relate to like we are the bottleneck of our own company. And I think a big part of Dan's book, you know, is like identifying what you can delegate, and as your friend, like you have incredible talents, I've often seen that you also can't let go of that kind of that iron to hand it off to someone else. How have you sort of navigated the fact that you've actually gotten smaller, but you seem to have actually had more balance than you had a year ago? How is that possible?
Nathan Marsala 13:32
Part of it is, you know, there's I got to be careful in how I phrase this only because, you know, I've had relevant conversations with others about this, and I'm my my thinking is becoming clearer and clearer. Systems and processes have a place and they are important, but we can over process, over systematize, and then add complexity that does not need to be present, and we forget sometimes that there are companies and coaches selling systems and processes, and it's a product. And that product, you know, it's a consumable. You got to keep buying. You got to keep finding people so to them, the system and the process is always the answer. And it's not that it's bad or that it's wrong, but I think we can over systematize. We can rely on processes too much, and all we've done is create complexity. And a great example is like, I mean, I watch my my wife at a large global tech firm that you know, and the things that she has dealt with over a decade long career at this specific company, in the role that she's played there, and there is a system and a process for everything, and it has created so much complexity and so much strain in the system. And the solution is, well, there's got to be a new process and a new system, right? These consultants just sell processes and systems. That's not the answer every time. And so the long winded answer to your question is, it's looking at our systems and processing processes and knowing what we can eliminate, like what is just unnecessary, what's adding complex complications and steps that really don't need to be eliminated. Part of Dan Martel's concept and buy back your time is, you know, he's got that, that quadrant, the drip method, right? And so there's things you can delegate, there's things you can reduce, but there's also things that you should just eliminate, delete. This
Mark D. Williams 15:49
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Nathan Marsala 18:11
Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, and have I become a bottleneck, like Martel talks about, yeah, definitely. Has it taken a toll? Yeah? You know, one of those things last year is I had a trade partner pull me aside. He's a good friend outside of work. I mean, we don't get together a ton, but it's been, it's been more than just like a good partnership is, you know, for the last 15 years. And you know, he pulled me aside and he took me to lunch too. We didn't have a conversation like the way you are interacting with guys right now, like, this isn't you? And that was part of that wake up call. I mean, it was kind of a unrequested 360 audit that came out of that, because then it started me making phone calls to others, like, hey, is this really going on? Am I really
Mark D. Williams 19:00
starting, what did he What did he say? Was it because you were you were
Nathan Marsala 19:05
not screaming or yelling necessarily, but the tone and the demeanor at which I would reprimand might be a proper word or address a situation wasn't typical of me. It wasn't screaming or yelling, it wasn't necessarily derogatory phrasing. He just said, Hey, dude, the demeanor is the tone in which it comes out is soul crushing.
Mark D. Williams 19:32
You're carrying anger, yeah,
Nathan Marsala 19:34
and I didn't know where it was. I couldn't see it, right? I was blind. I was blind to it, and, yeah, I kind of played it back. I'm like, Oh, wow, I've had a few of these conversations, and it puts me at risk of alienating good trade partners that we've had for over a decade, not wanting to work with us again, primarily because of me and it. Was a very valuable lunch. Now it did everything on that specific project around the the incident that prompted this conversation go, Well, no, did they have things that they needed to own up to? Yes, and they did. And they're capable of having difficult conversations and owning up to their stuff, which they did. It was getting to that point, and how we how we got there, and part of that was I probably carried way too much on my plate, you know, things at home, you know, that were taking place with the health of my wife and daughter, that were on the side, that were adding to additional stresses outside of work, trying to do a lot and be everything to everyone. It catches up. Your fuse gets shorter and shorter and shorter. And I didn't see that my fuse was getting shorter. And it wasn't everybody, and it wasn't every day, but it was a giant Wake Up Call of, wow, something's got to change. I'm so focused on what others are changing in their lives, and how we get my wife healthy, how we get our daughter healthy, because she's had a few things that have been extremely difficult to navigate for the last six, seven months. Well, some of them going on almost nine months now. We're not there yet with her. We've got a long ways to go, but it was creeping in and adding to the work thing, and knowing that you have relationships you've built with others that can help pull you aside and kind of be that signpost on the side of the road and say, hey, it's time to check in. It's time to reevaluate what's going on. This isn't normal. This isn't you. So that was invaluable. That's probably one of those things that triggered, hey, let's prompt the change. One of the items that I think is important when it comes to doing more with less, is understanding. And this comes back to the keep it simple, stupid kiss method when you're doing something, because other people told you, this is how we do it. Too often. We don't question the advice that's given. Even this podcast, right? Like everybody listening to it, please question everything that we say, evaluate it for yourself. Does it actually apply? Like I said, systems, processes, there's coaching, there's books, there's consultants that will walk you through how to set up the most amazing systems for your company and your business. It's a product. They're there to make money. They need to sell you that product. Too often. We eagerly buy it because we're looking for the solution for the silver bullet. But we don't question, like, do I really need this? Is this? Does this whip really help me right
Mark D. Williams 22:48
now, I think people that are in sales are very susceptible to products because we're good at selling them. I'm speaking for myself. Like, you know, I know you would think after I'm 45 years old. Am I 4546 I don't know how old I am anymore. The point being is 46 Wow. That went fast. Anyway. The point being is, you remember how old you are? The second one is, no, I'm still 45 Sorry, I'm still working on my birthday. I wonder how I can build a multi million dollar house, but I can't remember how many years I have been on this earth. My question because you have people, people that tell me what to do, how old I am. It's they didn't ask me how old I act. They asked how old I am. But no where I was going with this is when you know you're my own question. Here I was gonna ask you this earlier, so it's coming back to my mind. Ian Musk had something that was really interesting back to about reducing his autobiography. I haven't read it as phenomenal. He's clearly a touched individual, but one thing he's got right is, when he was building his rockets and trying to compete with NASA, he basically reduced it till it wouldn't work anymore, and then he would add back 10% and I've never thought to do that with my own construction company. Like but your concept of like what products and what systems and what subscriptions and what things are draining financially and your team's energy, if you just reduce them till you couldn't build a house anymore, and then add back 10% until you could, that would be the leanest operation you could run. I've never thought to do that with my own company. I admire it on a larger scale. But have you, have is that without, I mean, were you aware of that, that he did that? Or have you, what's your thoughts on that? For you, for yourself, we were
Nathan Marsala 24:31
doing that before I read Ian's biography, because I've, I've gone through both of his, the Walter Isaacson, and then the one that came out was 15 years ago, the very first one was bit more on the Tesla side than it was on the SpaceX side. But yeah, that's primarily kind of what we've been doing. And auditing is part of the reason we've been able to do, you know, so much compared to our peers that do the same revenue and volume, that have two. Twice or two and a half x the employee count. You know, we just got, I've just looked at some comparable financials to some others, and you know, our overhead is half what their overhead is. We're doing the same revenue. My overhead
Mark D. Williams 25:12
is half. Wow,
25:15
now you just means more margin. True.
Mark D. Williams 25:17
And one thing that I've always admire about your business, you've always been very business savvy, and part of that is probably how you I've forgotten. I actually did do some research, even though I know you really well, I didn't realize that you are owner's rep at one point. I don't know where I missed that. Where was that in your career? Because, you know, going back to the beginning, like you grew up, your dad built, you did Finish Carpentry, and you have a real eye for the details. I mean, your tagline, I think it's great details matter. When were you an owner's rep? How did I miss that?
Nathan Marsala 25:45
That was the late teens. It was, it was between the two ventures. So Marsala and CO was part of the family business that I grew and operated and had a an equity stake in. And then one of our clients, it was a repeat client. They had explored, actually, some merger and acquisition, about bringing us in house, and it wasn't going to be a win win. I needed to do something slightly different, make a change. I'd always wanted to be on the owner side of the table. They made that happen. They made me an offer. So that was 2018 into 2020 and you know, then the advising group started after that. So it's kind of between the two entrepreneurial ventures, so to speak, great valuable insight, learned a lot. Spent more hours in airports and airplanes than I care to most people
Mark D. Williams 26:40
have a career then get into consulting. You went into consulting and then had a career. I just enjoy, sort of the dichotomy of that natural path.
Nathan Marsala 26:50
Yeah. I mean, it was very valuable to be on the builder side, on a GC side for decades, go to the owner side, see how that ran. Realized, yeah, it's not where I want to be, but got some very valuable insight on just more nuance on how those whiteboard behind closed doors meetings take place, and how those decisions are made. And then go back and do what I enjoy doing more, which has been on this side of the table, on the on the GC side of the table, but, yeah, that's also one of those things where, I mean, I've worked for large, multi billion dollar GCS on the commercial side. In my career, I've worked for a multi billion dollar company as an owner's rep with all of their construction projects over eight different states, and on a plane every week. I can see when complexity is helpful because it needs to be there for necessary oversight, but you can quickly see how it just too many systems, processes, checklists can bottleneck. Excuse me, but yeah, no, it's a valuable insight to have a different perspective of this industry, from a different side. Speaking of perspectives,
Mark D. Williams 28:05
you know, it's been a while, maybe two years ago, used to do your whiteboard Wednesdays. I really enjoyed those. You know, you were searching for your voice and the place that you were feeling, and you've always been a great, I think, a great educator. Honestly, I don't know if anyone's ever told us. I think you'd be a great teacher. Has anyone ever told you that before?
Nathan Marsala 28:23
You know, I haven't necessarily. I've always got great feedback on the whiteboard. Wednesdays, being a teacher is something that's, ironically, something I've, I've thought about at the tail end of my career, that maybe I would go teach, you know, construction management or something adjacent to that at a university to enjoy my retirement, because I'm not a sit still play golf all day, type of guy, and I enjoy golf, but that's just not my personality. I enjoy the learning and teaching process. So no, the awkward Wednesday, something should probably come back in the future. So tell the audience that
Mark D. Williams 28:55
doesn't know what Whiteboard Wednesday is like, what were your premise was and what I thought it was really interesting. In some ways, I see people doing it now, like Tinker sleeves, kind of do a entrepreneurial they don't call it Whiteboard Wednesday, but you know, it's like the thank you Thursdays, the follow Fridays. I mean, I love mnemonics that are easy to remember, and whiteboard Wednesdays was one of them. But why don't you share what you know, kind of what inspired you to do that, and then you know what it was. Yeah.
Nathan Marsala 29:19
So Whiteboard Wednesday was, and probably still will be, if it moves forward anymore, the short reels videos and it came out if I wanted to do more with, you know, YouTube or whatever, and that's just too much work. So what could I record with a phone quickly post to our Instagram page and be actionable advice to help educate not just builders, but clients and architects. What is it that really matters? Things that we see get misunderstood in our industry all the time, right? Popular one was, what's there between a bid and an estimate? Everybody thinks they're the same. They're not the same. You know, there's a there's a different meaning to. Mean the two a bid is, it's a hard number, right? If you give me a bid, or I give you a bid and it's 100 bucks, it's 100 bucks, it's not 101, and it's not 99 I'm gonna give you a bill for 100 and we've all agreed to that. If I'm giving you an estimate, I'm gonna tell you we think it's approximately 100 bucks. We're gonna be close to 100 bucks. It could be 102 could be 98 there's a difference between a bid and an estimate. One's a little bit more firm than the other. Sometimes we interchange the terms, but it's things like that. You know, how to write a proper RFI? Why would you want to document an RFI? You know, when do you just pick up the phone and call the architect and ask the question? Versus the full gamut, I like things like that. I liked it.
Mark D. Williams 30:37
I mean, you're right. I think it speaks to both the clients, so they understand the professionalism. But part of it, I think, for the audience that doesn't know you, and I don't know if it still is, but you were doing what, 50% commercial, 50% residential, is that still roughly the split? Or what's your split now? Yeah, still, still about a rough 5050, split, which is not, honestly, there's not that many, there's not many GCS that can do both, that want to do both, but even well, can do it well on both. And I think what makes you exceptional at that is your tagline details matter. Like you are very detailed person. And you know, we're going to get there at the end of the episode, because you are going to geek out about watches. We better save that for the end. But like you're I think I've joked with you before. You've heard me say this about you, that you know more about watches than I think I know about anything in like life period, like your encyclopedic knowledge about you know, and you're passionate about it too, as well. But I think what, the reason I'm bringing it up right now, and we'll pin it for a little while, is just the details. Like you are very detailed. I can see why architects would love to work with you. And so, you know, that's one of your most powerful skill sets, I would imagine, in attracting both clients and also architects that are choosing to work with you.
Nathan Marsala 31:49
It's a two edged sword, right? There's a trade off with everything. The details can get us in trouble. It can add to complexity and systems and processes really quick easy, because it's an easy rabbit hole to go down, right? It's a natural rabbit hole. So you have to pull back. And I think that's one of the things you have to ask yourselves, like when you're trying to buy back your time, you have to look at, you know, what are the things that truly matter? What are the details in a set of drawings or in a build or to a client that matter? And so you have to understand, well, what matters to the end user, there might be details that matter to us. We're going to make sure we execute on them, but that is not the primary detail that matters to a client. They could probably care less, and I'm going to spend way too much time and energy on something they're never going to see, never going to notice. Doesn't mean we don't do it, we don't do it well, but maybe I don't expend too much mental and physical energy making sure it's as close to perfect as possible when to them, there are other higher priorities and making sure we're focused on those that we may not see. So part of being detailed is understanding what details matter to who?
Mark D. Williams 33:01
Well, that's funny. You. You mentioned, actually, a couple years ago, you were on adaptive podcast with her buddy, Reese, and you, you were, you had this great quote that says, if you don't understand the vision, you can't build it. And what I appreciate about that quote from you is the idea that, you know, we sort of need to see where we're going. We need to know the story. We need to know the shape of it, and yes, the details matter. If you're reading a book to your kids, although you're, you know, maisie's older now, but it's like, you're probably not, you know, snuggle up on the couch reading books like you used to. I'm still there, and I enjoy it. Hopefully they still want to do it when they're older. But like, you kind of need to know, like, what kind of story are we? Are we in for? And I think that's true of architecture, and I think that's why I really personally enjoy storytelling through our work, and it's something I didn't realize. That's actually how I sell. Now, mostly I don't even like the word selling. I think I just like the word storytelling. Let me tell you a story, because by the end of it, like you're so engrossed in the story. Like, I mean, that's why trailers are so successful. You know, for movies, it's like they're getting the hooks into you. Why do you think? Because I think it coincides a little bit with there's a great verse, and I know you read the Bible too, but there's a verse in the Old Testament. I've often thought of it things in Proverbs, but the people perish where there is no vision. And I think that's true as us, as we're the leaders of our firms, and also as we work with our partners, like it's sort of up us, up to us to establish, like a clear vision, but we also have to understand, like as an architect, what is their vision, and how do we have a shared vision together? Because if there's not alignment there, it's going to be chafing the whole time.
Nathan Marsala 34:31
Well it is, and then it's harder for people to remain motivated to move towards that vision, whether it's the company's vision on where it's going and it's why? What does it do? Why? Why do we do what we do, or whether it's the client's vision, that story is is important, and making sure that that is a signpost that is clear and visible and understood by everybody, that's where you get alignment. That's where on the tough days, you know how to get through the tough days, because at the end, I. It's going to be awesome. So you're going to get there. So let's take a
Mark D. Williams 35:02
little time to dig into this. How do you do that? How do is it? Is it your ops meeting? Is it checking with your people? Is it you explaining your vision so that they understand what, how you think about it? But how do you convey that that vision and that shared, honestly, it's a culture thing, really, for your team. But you know, even with like, the architect, or whoever the lead of the project is that you're trying to court, like, how do you actually, actively think about it? Or do you think it's more passive and more innate into our personality and into our Are you actively making those choices to pass on that vision to others?
Nathan Marsala 35:35
I think that there is a bit of both, right? There's something innate that you kind of have inside you. That's why you started doing what you do. That's why you started the company, right? Why did you start a podcast? Why did you start the curious builder and the curious builder collective? Why are you building Misa, who's, yeah, like you had a vision. It's innate, it's inside of you. Now you have to tell the story and communicate that so you can bring people along with you. And for us, the vision that we create at the bison group, and what we want people to know and to march forward is, yeah, the details do matter to us. We don't build luxury homes. I don't like the word luxury. I think I feel, and you and I've talked, I think it's an overused term. Everything is luxury today, right? The the luxury apartments, the luxury townhomes by the production builder that I'm sorry they're anything but close to luxury. And so I actually ran from the word I changed our signage. We're finally crafted. We are finally crafted homes. Our story is craftsmanship. It's the details they matter to us. And it's not just the details in the workmanship that goes into the house. We want you to feel it, to see it. It's emotional. That's why we do what we do. That's why we have the trade partners that we have. It's how we manage it's what we're looking for when we understand that, hey, the details matter, and it's a finely crafted home in that the tenant spaces that we build out for our clients. It's the same thing. It's a high cost per square foot, but they're coming to us primarily because of the story we've tried to communicate, which is this is who we are. We pay attention to things for a very specific reason and purpose. We are not like every other builder. We do not want to be like every other builder, and that starts from day one with our pre construction that the number of times we sat down and presented our pre construction path, the level of detail we go to at a schematic design, from a numbers standpoint, I do not know of anybody that competes with us at that level. And that's not me saying that. That is architect after architect after architect saying other builders simply will not go to this level or do not.
Mark D. Williams 37:50
I think two things. One is, is you get paid for it, which I highly encourage. I mean, that's one of the first things that we in fact, that was the first session at contractor coalition Summit, where Nick schifror was talking about pre construction agreements. I had one, but turns out, I was crediting the client, you know, you know, rather than keeping it for myself. But I think it's, it's one of the first things I tell up and coming builders, or honestly, anybody, that we all need to be charging for our work. Otherwise, you're doing it for free, and if you're doing free work, you're really you're devaluing your end work as well. And the hardest person to sell is ourselves, because we think, especially because most, it seems like most entrepreneurs in general, I think that's why the collectives have done so well. Is there such in the contractor coalition summits and things like that? Is that there's such a hunger to talk to other owners? Because there's not really. Most of us are figuring it out on our own, and that's why, when we talk to other people, that's why I have this podcast, is to share these thoughts and comments with other people so that we can all learn from each other. You know, it's kind of like, it kind of gets old making every mistake under the sun and then looking back decades later and being like, wow, that would have been nice to know. I mean, I famously have told people 1000 times on this podcast. I didn't know what the difference between markup and margin was, and I've left millions of dollars on the table because of it. I speak about it so often because I don't want another builder a side or a frame or a roofer, and honestly, any business owner to make the same mistake that I did, because you don't know what you don't know now you can dig into it.
Nathan Marsala 39:20
Yeah, no, that's that's absolutely right, and that's, yeah, part of that vision that storytelling is you got to just communicate it to to the people on the team. This is why we do what we do. This is why we're going to string walls after the framers done. So we don't trust them. So what we're telling the client like we hired top tier talent to do the work, and then we're going to check the work, and we're going to make sure deficiencies are mitigated and minimized or eliminated as much as possible. We're going to communicate effectively with what is taking place in the time, but it even comes down into the. Collateral that you use the our pay apps, I could easily simplify a little bit further and use some of the software that are out there and just say, Nope, this is what it looks like. Personally, I hate how most of them look in the formatting and they don't customize it off. So we have our custom forms. Everything it drops into. It's not hard. It doesn't take a lot of extra time, but it reads cleaner. It's easier for you know, it's very specific to us and branded. It's based on an AIA G, 702703 but it's simplified in some ways and expanded in others, that provide all of the relevant information in a clean, concise way for architects, for clients. I mean, here's an example. I had a builder that I spoke to the other day. We're going through some of our pre con stuff and our and a cost on a project, and it wasn't a project that he was a part of we were speaking about trying to do some potential projects together and work together in the future. He's never had a builder tell him what it cost to build his designs in his career. He doesn't know what the Ian cost does of what he's
Mark D. Williams 41:12
wrong. How could he not know? Builders
Nathan Marsala 41:15
won't share the information. They won't give him a copy of the with the architect. Yeah. I mean, this is on a residential commercial. Is a very different story, because a lot of times they're reviewing,
Mark D. Williams 41:24
why Hang on? I gotta, I gotta stop you there. Why in the world would, I mean, honestly, that sounds like two. One is, why aren't you talking to the architect? I mean, we have the architects oftentimes at the bid meetings with the client. I mean, they're Yeah, and then the second thing is, is, like, a lot of them are basing it off for percentages, and they want to know what the cost is to some degree. But then lastly, if you've been in business for a long time, don't you have any curiosity of, like, of like, what it cost? I mean, I it almost seems like they're an ostrich, like putting their head in the ground. Like, how much of it is not the contractors fault, but maybe the architects fault for not asking. I wouldn't
Nathan Marsala 41:59
say it's the the I'm not gonna put this on the architect. It's not that they don't see the bid price, okay? But they never see the final cost. I see there's a delta. They're not they're not understanding, well, okay, we drew this. It cost x, but what did it end at from? No, I got for us. It's simple. We have no problem giving that. And I understand there's a lot of contractors that are just want to be secret, right? They're playing their cards close to their chest. They don't want anybody to find out what they're want anybody to find out what their margin is or their fee is not an issue to me. Mine's clearly spelled out, and it's a specific line item. It is not buried in all the individual line item cost. It's right there at the bottom below the line. You know exactly what our project management fee is. You know what our general contractor fee is like? It's all right there. It's all right there. It's very spelled out. It's very black and white. It's very transparent. That's just part of how we we operate. It's part of the story we tell. Right? We are here. We are a team player. We want a relationship. We want to do finely crafted work for people that truly care, that appreciate it. You know, becomes that filter. You know
Mark D. Williams 42:56
what I love about that name thing? I meant to mention this earlier, but I'll bring it up now. I love by the way, that you switch from luxury to find, find the crafted homes in the English language, I could say that I love this La Croix. I love my daughter. I love running. But all those mean very different things. Where I think, is it Greek? I think there's like 20 some like, adjectives or verbs for like love. And I think it speaks a little bit to the limitations of the English language, where. And it goes back to that luxury, you know, sometimes when we use a term, it maybe at one time, whoever first started saying they wanted it, of course, to luxury had a, you know, a lux feel to it like, of course, luxury home like, of course. But if all of a sudden everything is a luxury home, then nothing's a luxury home. And so then we have to pivot our language again anyway. Just reminded me of the word love, because we say love all the time. Well, I think
Nathan Marsala 43:51
it can cost more, and it typically does, to do things with better materials and better craftsmanship, but I don't think, I don't think a finely crafted, well built home necessarily has to be a Veblen good That's insanely expensive, that fits the old definition of luxury where it's, you know, this unobtainable expense for the sake of expense, that'd Be that exists surely, but it doesn't have like here's an example. We have a meeting with a client this afternoon. We're going to sign off on their schematic budget, their schematic plans. It's going to move into Construction Docs, getting permits. They're going to move out. We're going to go tear down their house. We're going to go build them something new. Their budget is more tightly constrained than most of our clients. We found a way to do it. I'm proud that we found a way to do it, it, but we're not we're not sacrificing the craftsmanship to do this right. It's coming at some of the square footage, in the size and the complexity of the build. It's coming in some of the materials we're. Still using good materials, but we're not using the same high level but, I mean, this isn't LVP floors. And you know what? I do not like the term builder grade. It's always used as a derogatory term. But like, What would our and this is a thing that you should ask yourself as a builder, what is your minimum level of build? Like, what is the what are the lines you will not cross? For us, there are certain lines we're just not going to cross. We're not going to put certain materials in a project. We're not going to build certain things a certain way. That's just not who we are. It's detrimental to our brand and to our story. So what is the minimum you can do? We found it. We were challenged to find it for this client. It's and I don't like cost per square foot, but we're going to be coming in like 385 a foot. I haven't built anything residentially at 385 a foot in ages. I didn't think it was possible, to be honest, like it had to challenge my assumptions. So I think the cost some and some people listening to this might go 385, a foot's insane. They're building in the mid 100 still are in the 200 where, I don't know, I was surprised we got sub 400 because we always thought this is going to be a full 50 a foot. I mean, I can hear you.
Mark D. Williams 46:15
Yeah, I agree with you. We priced her out the other day. And, I mean, right now my range is 490, to 1100 a foot. That's a massive range. So, like I now say that because people love that first phone call, and they can't help themselves, because they don't know what else to ask. And I try to stay, obviously, we steer away from price per square foot, but they don't know anything else. And it's so it's so dependable. I mean, most builders do not like to talk about. There's a few exceptions. Actually. You know, her ally case, Anderson from Chicago, she's amazing. Yeah, she has it right on her website. It's like, one of the first thing she clearly states what her cost per square foot is and what the expectation is as a range. And I was, I remember interviewing her, it was, like, a year ago, or whatever it was, and she's like, No, I want people. It's my filter. I want people to know exactly what it costs, you know, for what I'm going to do now, I'm not in her she was very unapologetic. She's like, I'm not going to change. So I don't remember what her number was. Let's just say it was 800 bucks a foot or 1000 bucks. I have no idea. But the point is, is that she wasn't going to go to 700 she's like, No for me to deliver all the services. I think, speaking a little bit to what you're talking about, is like, what is your minimum? Her minimum was whatever she was stating. And I also like it when people do the opposite of what the rest of the industry is, if the whole industry doesn't share it, and then you share it, I love that. If everyone is this, I love sort of being the contrarian and doing it a totally different way. And because you can usually, there's almost always, what do they say? There's riches in the niches. Like, there's usually a way to sort of spin it, where people are like, Oh, that's different. I like that. You know, it's just owning your story, really,
Nathan Marsala 47:44
it is. And I, I want to pivot real quick, if you don't mind, yeah, go for it. I want to make sure that your listeners, you know, if they're tuning in to hear bullet points on buy back your time. They get a couple things that I think it's relevant to the story you tell, knowing what your minimum is, and how you do more with less, and some of those basic principles. Where he starts out, you know, in that that book, if you recall, he talks about doing these time audits, where's your time going? Do you even know where your time goes? There are times I get annoyed how much windshield time I have between projects. We have a 60 mile radius we build within, but that can mean it can be an hour and a half drive to get to some of our sites up in the mountains a little bit further. Well, how do you use that time effectively? Right? Can I be delegating? Can I be producing, or can I be learning? You kind of look at that windshield time. What can I do? Delegating is making phone calls. Producing? Can me be making a phone call? Learning? Can be listening to a book or a podcast, trying to gain some insight. But you have to find out where your time's going, and when you realize, oh, wow, we spend a lot of time doing absolutely nothing. He likes to say two two weeks, block out in every 15 minutes. That's insane. That is insane. I would highly recommend again, that's within the first hour of a thing going off. But at the minimum, just every hour check in. What have I done for the last hour? What did I produce? How many times was on my email? How many times did I go to Instagram or Tiktok or whatever it is, and just task yourself and understanding, like, where's the time going?
Mark D. Williams 49:25
I think one of his things, he had a thing. I just read it last night. I was like, what the five time assassins? I can't pull them off, but like, one of them was, you know, delaying decisions. One of the things that any entrepreneur knows that, like, if you sit on a decision too long, like, it's not about writer, it's not about a or b. It's about making the decision moving forward with it. I remember my dad used to always say about that, that sometimes there is no right decision. It's it becomes the right decision by what you do at following the decision. And I've always he calls that the Staller,
Nathan Marsala 49:53
the person that there's no decision is a decision, right? That's the problem, right? You get paralyzed, yeah, but you can make decisions too. Quick, be very impulsive, not having enough information if you're micromanaging, easy to do because you're not delegating tasks or you're not trusting the people that you've hired to do that. I think that requires two things, a self examination on why you do that. And then two, do you not have trust in the people that you hired, and if you don't, is it because you failed to train them? Or they're just not the right fit? They're the wrong person on the wrong seat on the bus, and they just there needs to be a change. I think that's one
Mark D. Williams 50:31
of the hardest one for most owners, not the second part, the wrong bus one. But like, I remember Nick Schiffer talking about it, you know, he's pretty OCD on and pretty tight ship, right? You can just see it and how he presents himself, but he had said something whereas, like, if you can hire someone to do your job within a 60% efficiency rating of what you can hire them and move on. And when, in most owners, when they hear there's like, what 60% that means a 40% off of what I would do. And I like what Nick said, they can't stay at a 60% they have to get better. But if you always are waiting for someone who's going to do it 90 to 95% you'll never hire anybody. And I know for myself, I've asked, well, maybe ask you this question, do you think you're a better coach or a better teacher? I should rephrase that, are you a better coach or a better cheerleader? Is what I meant.
Nathan Marsala 51:27
I'm a better coach. I've coached volleyball. Better coach than a cheerleader. The cheerleading me giving the kudos and the cheerleader on the side can sometimes be a little bit more difficult. The coaching is a little bit more natural. And Martell says the same thing, and buy back your time. But I think he puts a framework around it. He does an 8020 split, right? If somebody is going to do something 80% as well as you, that's better than you trying to do it all in it being a zero or a 50, right? So he kind of splits at 8080, 20, but there's a framework. Don't hire just to grow. Don't hire just to throw bodies at problems. That's his big challenge to people, is don't throw bodies at problems. Make sure you understand what it is you're hiring for if you're going to hire somebody, make sure that when you've delegated that you've properly delegated to a person that frees up your time and your capacity to go do what you do best. Now that could be the coaching, that could be the storytelling, that might be the pre construction, that might be just being the visionary, the kite in the sky, and you're going to delegate everything down to the COO on the ground that's kind of keeping you tethered to reality with your big visions and dreams and the and so he's he looks at as you can hire people to go do work that doesn't necessarily solve the problem. You might be adding more complexity, right? Because you just hired a bunch of project managers. But what if the real solution was your project managers were just wasting their time because he didn't have you didn't audit their time like we've gotten the the time block, the ideal week for every role. You know, it's not hard to properly run them at and manage a project site, if you properly time bucket, and it still gives you plenty of time to walk the job and be there. And, you know, that's one thing that some we get phone calls at times because, you know, like Dwayne right now, who's our primary super I've gotten phone calls like, dude, this guy, he's driving your our guy's nuts. I said, why? Well, he's watching him do the work. Okay, what was he supposed to do? Go sit in the cab of a truck or in the job site trailer, like, his paperwork is done. His job is to be there, to be a support. And you know, the irony is, your guys are nervous because there's a superintendent watching them do something, but we can tell you that they did the wrong thing because they weren't paying attention, but he was there to catch it, so we saved time money. You didn't have to rework it. Your guys kind of forgot to tell you that part. Yeah, they're embarrassed. There's nothing wrong with that. People make mistakes, but you see this on on job sites, if there's not somebody there paying attention, it can be written down on a set of drawings. It doesn't mean a subs going to look at the drawings, or that they're going to follow it, or that they even care.
Mark D. Williams 54:12
I mean, it's nice. I mean, I think this goes back to your system things what we started with. Or you can have all these different systems and all these different layers, but give me somebody that cares. I'll take the person that cares all day over a system. Now I'm again, I'm not saying you don't need systems. You clearly do. But man, someone who really gives a darn. I had a my cabinet guy shout out to him, rich. He's amazing. Been with me for almost, I don't even know how long, 1618, 20 years. And what you know, it's like those guys who are really slow burn, but when they do burn, they burn a little hot. I remember him calling me a couple years ago on a project, and he just said, he said, My give a darn is broken. He was so upset at someone else coming before him or coming him after him, and he spends so much time and mental capital to do a good job to help our brand. I mean, I'll ride and die with rich all day long. He cares so much. But. But he was so upset and disheartened that other people that he was witnessing didn't care as much as him, and it's hard. I mean, if you and things, let's talk about job site cleanliness, which every owner, I don't know anyone that has solved this completely, unless you keep it in house and just do it. But like and everyone loves to say, Oh, your sub should do it. Great. Show me. Show me all your subs that always do it without someone. You know, it's a little bit like, you know, you got kids, you know, clean up your room and wipe the countertop. And it's like everyone has a different idea of what clean is. Or, you know, I hate, I hate it when they say we clean every Friday. And it just, it bothers me. I'm like, Why do you clean every Friday? Why don't you clean at the end of every day and then Friday, you know, be a lot faster. And so anyway, and so anyway. And I know it comes up to us as leaders to sort of set that, but it's really hard to change people's and we have so many different people that come into a job site. I don't know. Yeah, it could be a whole separate episode on this one, but I forget why I went down this road Exactly. But anyway, I guess mainly because I was on a job site today and I was disgusted with how dirty disgusted with how dirty it was. That's probably,
Nathan Marsala 56:05
it's probably, yes. I mean, it comes down to the systems in the processes, but somebody that cares can beat a system.
Mark D. Williams 56:11
Oh, they give a darn. Yeah, broken, yeah. Which?
Nathan Marsala 56:14
Which comes down to, if you give a darn, you'll you got to share what the darn is. You got to find other people to give a darn. The darn the darn is part of the story. You're right. Systems are important. I don't begrudge systems checklist. Manifesto was required reading for everyone in the company number of years ago. I still refer to that book. I still think it's a great book, but the important thing is to know what belongs on a checklist and what doesn't right. You have to refine it down, just like an editor with a good book might start out at 800 pages and ends at 300 you ruthlessly edit and refine and cut things out that are unnecessary, that are the fluff that don't need to be there, the filler words, which I've probably dropped plenty of ums and uhs on this podcast, but it's the same thing in our business and in our lives, you're ruthlessly refining down, which is what Markel is trying to get to at the end of the day. You know, he's got a bunch of rules and metrics on why and how, and the primary goal is to buy back time so you can have time and freedom to go do the things that you want to do, to live the life you want to live with your family. Your family, with your friends, but to also work on the business and to continue to take it to the place that you want it to be, because you've pulled yourself out of the way and you're not doing all the low level tasks that are zapping energy and brain power that could be better used somewhere else. And it's a whole book of tactics on how to do that, from planning an entire year in advance to looking at things at quarters and time blocking and all of these other different things, and hiring people that can do it for the quarter of what your hour your hourly rate is based on what you made last year divided by 10,000
Mark D. Williams 57:56
I know I did that the other day. I was really depressing at how low my per hour rate was. Like, it's like, dang, that's depressing. I did that at my daughter's gymnastics. I was like, Look, I was reading the book, and I was like, wait a minute, this is depressing. Let's leave the book here. We're kind of at the at the hour mark, because there was two things I wanted to talk to you about. One was I meant to actually lead with this, but we don't have time now, just talking about, I believe I want to I want to get to is your pens, like you have the most beautiful pens, and pens and watches kind of go hand in hand with you. We are your friends. Affectionately call you bougie bison because you have extremely high end taste and but walk me through, I think was your mentor who gave you a really high end pen. And I just think the audience would benefit from that. And I'd love to hear the story again. But every time I'm like, traveling in an airport and I see a beautiful pen, I usually text a picture to you, and you'll like, know the pen. It's like, pens. And watches like, oh my word. This guy as an encyclopedic but tell the audience the story about what your mentor said about a pen. Yeah.
Nathan Marsala 58:55
So John is his name. He's no longer with us, unfortunately, but he he meant a great deal to to me, to my family. I knew this man for well over 30 years, great business mentor, great mentor, just in life, in many ways, he always carried a fountain pen in his pocket, and then he actually switched back to a ballpoint a little bit later, because he kept ruining shirts but he always carried a pen. He always carried a nice pen. And yeah, part of that was just kind of who he was, but the purpose of always having a pen, and he sometimes would change out what he was carrying, but three by five cards were kind of his standard, to keep one of the two of those in his pocket. He always dressed really well. He always had a pen and a piece of paper, something to make a note on number one, you never know when somebody's gonna ask you to sign something, a contract, etc, so you're always prepared. And it's not just a big pen. It's something that just speaks to you. It's part of who you are. Communicate something about you to other people. Doesn't be fancy, doesn't have to be i. Iconic, but yeah, just not the plastic pick pen. You also keep track of that pen a lot more. But you ever have an idea or somebody mentioned something that you need to make a mental note of, you can quickly make that note. And he would, he would have these ideas. He was, he owned a bunch of really nice high end restaurants, lots of commercial real estate. He was a client of ours for a very, very long time, but he would just quickly jot a note down. You never asked to borrow a pen, because you always have a pen. You're just a man that's prepared, right? You always, you're ready to sign a contract, ink a deal, to make a note. And that that's always meant something to me, this the way he conducted himself, right? You're never asking somebody for a pen, because you're the guy with the pen, you're the guy prepared, you're the guy with the answers. So that's kind of always spoken to me. I've always enjoyed them. Journaling has always been a part of my life. It's one way for me to understand my my thoughts and my my processes. I still do a lot of analog stuff in the office, because I think sometimes the digital becomes the black hole, the things get lost in and the analog, it's a little stickier. So, yeah, I collect fountain pens. I've got non fountain pens as well. But, you know, between the inks and the pens and the nibs, there's something always just fun to play with. They're great conversation starters too. I literally had a client. I had one in my pocket. It was a not a fountain pen in this case, but I had a client ask if I could help him hang this big mirror in a home we built for him. I said, sure. He had a tape measure right there. He pulls a tape me. We start making sure it's centered and the right height, and I needed to mark something. And grabbed a piece of blue painters tape that happened to be nearby, put it on the wall, pulled my pen out of pocket, and he starts laughing, like what's so funny? He goes, I've just never seen a contractor use a Mont Blanc to mark a wall before. That's awesome, because I didn't know that was the thing. I said, Well, just tricks everything. I mean, it's not normal. I wouldn't mark a stud with it, but you know, it's it was what was in my pocket for that occasion. So yeah, pens have always meant something. I think they communicate something about your style, your personality. I like the way.
Mark D. Williams 1:02:06
I also think it says something about your I think what appeals to me about what you've shared there about this pen story is the ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. It's really the mindset and you're a sharp dressed guy, and I think there is something taking some time for your appearance in a non it's not look at me. It's I feel confident, and I think there's a big difference, and I think it resonates with our attitude, with how we engage with clients, things like that. And so I love the pen. I was curious, does this? Did John also always carry a knife with him, too? No, it's funny, because I almost always have a knife in my pocket because I want to be the guy. I've always had a fascination with knives, even as a little kid, pocket knives and all kinds of knives. I have so many knives, I didn't even know how many knives I've got. And so there's never a knife I've seen I ever like, Oh, I could use that one. And but the point being is, you know, it's the simple stuff. It's cutting open all my wife's UPS boxes. I mean, I think Amazon might have an actual hub at my house. So without this knife, I'm not sure how I'm supposed to process, you know, 500 pounds of cardboard a month, so much cardboard. But anyway, I feel the way John felt about a pen, a little bit about a knife, but I also just like to have one. But now I've thought about pens. I've not been I love pens, and I have some nice ones, but I've not been able to sort of work up my appetite to go for the full on fountain pen based on the cost, and also I like the but I have, I do have a pen, actually, that I often have with clients, and I actually had this kind of sneaky, I want to say it's maybe four or 50 bucks. It's not cheap, but it's not super expensive either, but it's a really nice pen. I really like it. And so what I do is I, I often, when I'm at a table with a client, they'll want to take a note, and I have tables, I have pens right in my on my desk, or, I'm sorry, on the conference table, but I'll often give them my personal pen, and then they'll, they'll use it, and they're like, oh, they always say the same thing, Oh, I like this. They'll write, and I'll always say, keep it. Now, what they don't know is I have actually 20 of them, so I just keep replacing but, like, but you're but it's genuine. It's not fake. I learned that one time because someone was like, I can't believe you just gave me your pen, like they've really and I was like, this could actually be kind of like a nice little gesture. Now I couldn't be giving away Mont Blanc pens to know
Nathan Marsala 1:04:23
Ian and I don't always today, this is the it's with me today. It's a it's wood, it's still has kind of that carpet revive. But you know it's, yeah, it's a fountain pen. And when you take this out and you scribble a note like people notice it becomes a conversation piece. And it's that it also like it. I also see it as part tells the story of the finely crafted homes. Yeah, I agree. I think it's very uncrafted things. Yep, it's very on brand. We want to we see the craftsmanship in all things.
Mark D. Williams 1:04:55
I think we'll leave the watch wormhole for another episode, because that's like a whole one. So. Suffice it to say, if you are ever at the International builder show, come a day early on Monday, and bougie and I will meet you, and you will get a I got to just share this, the high level story I was at IBS. What two years ago is that, when we were there together? Yeah, two years ago or three years ago? No, it's three years ago because I just started the podcast, and I bought the watch for the podcast. That's right, yeah, it was my, remember, was the all dark Ian or Ian? And so anyway, long story short, I was convinced I wasn't going to buy a watch. And so we get into this beautiful boutique. And you know, it's, you know, bougie knows a lot when every single salesperson just let, just lets Nathan say everything. I mean, he knew the the lineage of every French artist who had worked on these watches. And, you know, to the point where, like, the owner of the Boutique is just like, can I bring you a coffee? I'll let you kind of just lead these and So, long story short, I mean, you don't need a salesperson. You got a storyteller in you when it comes to that passion. So I love the experience and the passion of that. I just got to be careful. I can't go to too many watch shops with you, because it costs a lot of money to go to watch out with you.
Speaker 1 1:06:07
Well, depends next time, I'll take
Mark D. Williams 1:06:10
you up on that one. My question is, so one thing that we're doing we'll close out the episode, is we, every previous guest gets to leave a question for the next guest. And you get, when you're done with this question, you get to leave a question for the next guest. So the question here was, it's actually pretty on brand with how we started this, how do you ensure that you stay in touch with like your like your basis, is the way they said it, which I think is, how do you stay in touch with like your the main story of your life? How do you stay in touch in your business with the thing that drives you and not get lost in sort of the chaos of business, like, how do you celebrate the wins? And how do you really just stay true to honestly yourself and what your vision is for the company?
Nathan Marsala 1:06:57
Yeah, it's a really good question. And the and the simple answer is, you do less. And what I mean by that is, I think the world has gotten a little too complex, right? We have so it's the Lenten season. There's things that we give up during Lent and for me, there's things that we gave up that I've chosen just to completely walk away from. I don't know if they'll ever come back. Social media is one of those YouTube shorts, things like that. And the thing that has been on my mind a lot, and I've kind of gone through waves, I used to consume auto book, audio books, podcasts at one and a half, 2x speed. It was, how many could I get through the never ending list the podcast feed that was ginormously long of everybody you subscribed to. And I've gone through these phases where I don't subscribe a bunch, and I keep turning the speed down, and I'm back to it's everything's at 1x doesn't like if I speed it up a little bit, just because the person very slow, and so it needs to be normal conversational speed. But that's it. I don't I've ruthlessly cut out how many podcasts, what types of podcasts listen to, audiobooks. I will read a regular book. There's only my sub stack. Unsubscribe to most. There's only a couple that are, like two, actually, that I care about now, and they're just for my Sunday morning reading with my coffee. But to stay in touch with your base, you need the quiet time to be in touch with who you are and to contemplate and if you always have air buds in because you're always consuming something, music, podcast, audio book, you name it, from the moment you wake up to the moment you go to bed. And every time you're at a stoplight or you're at a grocery store in a line to check out, you're scrolling through your phone, you're checking your email, a text message or WhatsApp, an Instagram, whatever it is, you're out of touch. There's no way to know what your base is, because your mind is being flooded 24/7 with other people's information, other people's algorithms, what they think should matter to you, and you're not listening to you, what really matters to you, if you're just taking whatever the YouTube home feed is of like, these are the relevant videos for you to watch today. How do you know what you want to watch? They put you into it's like being stuck in a Truman Show digitally. And that's kind of how I feel. So the two things I do is, I've ruthlessly cut up most a lot of those things. I still have them. I'm not, you know, completely podcast free, but I'm very, very minimal in how much I'm listening to and consuming in that sense, so I have more time, even on some of those long drives that I was talking about, that windshield time, sometimes that's a great time to not listen to anything at all and just be with your thoughts. Hey, where am I going? What where do I. Want this company to be. Where do I see my relationships with my friends or my family and the next few years, or are we on the right path? And then fountain pens and paper? I journal, I write. You need the quiet time to contemplate and to think, and when you hear flooding yourself constantly with podcasts and audio books and YouTube videos and social media. I don't think you have time to think. I think you get told what you're supposed to think, and then you don't know who you are.
Mark D. Williams 1:10:30
I mean, I think that's very well said, buddy. It's funny, because there's several things in there that I definitely am guilty of. And I think, I think it's a little bit like, I'm not a gardener. I kill everything that that I would plant, but like, I think you constantly have to be pruning. I think it doesn't take any effort to accumulate all these things. I think it takes real effort to prune all of these things. My other garden analogy is what you water grows and so meaning, like, the thing that you focus on, the thing that you give time and energy and passion too. It just, it seems to lead more to more to more to more. And I feel like the theme of this podcast, specifically in the beginning and now the ending has been, you know, less is more, and that journey, I think, is different for every person. And I think also we could probably go through it multiple times in our life. Yeah, yeah. I don't
Nathan Marsala 1:11:16
either the spring cleaning people do with their closets or their garages, right? Do you do that with your digital life? Do you spring clean the podcast you listen to, the newsletters you're subscribed to the don't unsubscribe from curious builder. I mean, keep that one on the top. Of course, then with notifications, don't miss anything.
Mark D. Williams 1:11:36
No, I'll be the first to get rid of all notifications. I hate dinging. Well, I want to respect your time in the audience as you and I could talk for a couple more hours. What question Would you like to leave the next guest?
Nathan Marsala 1:11:48
What's the one thing you would delete from your life? It can apply to personal or business or better yet, what's the one thing you delete personally, and what's the one thing you delete in the business?
Mark D. Williams 1:11:59
All right, I wrote those down. Those are good ones. Thank you very much for coming on the podcast. So it's great to catch up with you. Buddy pleasure. Anyone will have all your show notes, of course, where they always belong. And Monday episodes and Thursdays, losers are winners. Actually, Nathan was a one of your first losers are winners. You I didn't allude to it. I guess I'm alluding to it now. I was one of the I almost cried on that episode. That was like six months ago or a year. We were talking about, thank you. You're talking about the note that Maisie left in your garage door. We won't do it now, if you want to listen to that, go back and listen to that episode. It's a tear jerker, and honestly, probably led to a lot of how this podcast started, would be my guess. Yeah, I appreciate you. You're a good person, and I'm glad to hear and see that things are going really well for you, and thanks for coming on the podcast. Thanks, Mark.
Mark D. Williams 1:12:50
We call that a one take wonder. Ian, that's funny. I forgot to I forgot to hit end recording. That'd be funny if that one makes it in. What's still going on? How do I shut this episode off? Thanks for tuning in. The curious builder podcast. If you like this episode, do us a favor. Share it with three other business owners. The best way that we can spread what we're doing is by word of mouth, and with your help, we can continue to help other curious builders expand their business. Please share it with your friends, like and review online, and thanks again for tuning in.
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